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Boosting dopamine and acetylcholine


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#1 cycobushmaster

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Posted 29 March 2011 - 03:56 PM


hey, i'd like some advice from y'all...

first a little background on me....i'm a police officer (full-time) and soldier (part-time), and have ADD (inattentive disorder). i've used a few different ADD meds, but haven't had a lot of success, but also haven't experimented much, due to my job.

i've been struggling with motivation for a while, especially in getting my butt out of bed and going to the gym. i work 2nd shift, so ideally, i'll work out in the morning, and then head in to work.

i've been thinking about using some supplements to boost dopamine in the AM (0830) when i get up, and then acetylcholine when i head in to work (1430). when i'm thinking, is for morning using some DLPA, tyrosine, PEA and caffeine (and b/c vitamins) and for the afternoon choline, ALCAR, gingko and piracetam.

any thoughts?

#2 Imagination

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Posted 29 March 2011 - 05:06 PM

For dopamine i would just go for the tyrosine myself, taken with b6 for conversion, it seems to have a really good motivation effect, even at just 500mg. I don't think you would need the DLPA and PEA with it as well.

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#3 cycobushmaster

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Posted 29 March 2011 - 05:46 PM

For dopamine i would just go for the tyrosine myself, taken with b6 for conversion, it seems to have a really good motivation effect, even at just 500mg. I don't think you would need the DLPA and PEA with it as well.


sorry, i should have mentioned this before...

i've used tyrosine before, around 500-1000 mg, a couple times a day (along with b/c complex), but it lost it's effectiveness pretty fast. i suspect i was simply trying to use too much, and that's why i'm looking at using it to start the day, and shift to the acetylcholine stuff later.

i'm kind of the typical stim junkie....i normally injest a lot of caffeine (from bodybuilding type products), and am currently prescribed phetermine.


i'm kind of thinking to talking to my doc about tyring Vyvanse and Wellbutriton (for my ADD, motivation and some minor depression) and then taking something like Choline Cocktail from Twinlab when i head in to work.

i've tried Strattera before (completely ineffective for me) and Focalin XR (worked well, but made me a dick), and am currently using phentermine (prescribed for weight loss, but works okay for ADD).


i'd kind of like to avoid prescription drugs, but realize i may need to go that route if i want faster results.

thanks again for the advice, and i'd appreciate any more advice....

Edited by cycobushmaster, 29 March 2011 - 05:46 PM.


#4 Spectre

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Posted 29 March 2011 - 06:30 PM

When did the depression start getting noticed? How long have you been taking pre-workout supps with lots of caffiene? That can actually trigger many issues on it's own, I'm addicted to caffeine (been trying to get off for years now), and it seems to cause bouts of depression in me. How much would you say you intake on a daily basis? I would recommend taking ginkgo first thing in the morning, it seems to give me good effects when combined with caffeine. Also, do you have any sleep issues by any chance?

#5 cycobushmaster

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Posted 29 March 2011 - 06:50 PM

When did the depression start getting noticed? How long have you been taking pre-workout supps with lots of caffiene? That can actually trigger many issues on it's own, I'm addicted to caffeine (been trying to get off for years now), and it seems to cause bouts of depression in me. How much would you say you intake on a daily basis? I would recommend taking ginkgo first thing in the morning, it seems to give me good effects when combined with caffeine. Also, do you have any sleep issues by any chance?


well, when i was in Iraq, my wife nearly died (diabetic coma), and has since had some life-chaning health issues. i didn't really notice depression at first, unitl i was looking at her and checking for the signs...then it kinda came up with me. i'm also kind of in a weird place at work....enjoy my job, but little chance of progression. also, i got kinda fat after Iraq (now have a low thyroid issue), so that doens't help..

i take about 3 x200mg caffeine a day, and have for prolly 15 years. my BP/heart rate are still good, though, due to consistnet workouts and genetics. caffeine has never casued me any issues, excpet for the one time when i accidnetly took 600mg at one time...

sleep is okay for me. i fall asleep about 15 minutes after i lay down, but i've been struggling in getting out of bed. i always have, except when ephedrine was still legal...

#6 Imagination

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Posted 29 March 2011 - 08:26 PM

If you have depression you might not react well with the choline, it makes me depressed whenever I try it which I never normally am, I tend to avoid it at all costs now, although every one is different, it might be ok for you, just watch it closely when you try it, i was taking it for a while before I realised it was the choline causing the depression.

#7 aLurker

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Posted 29 March 2011 - 08:48 PM

For dopamine i would just go for the tyrosine myself, taken with b6 for conversion, it seems to have a really good motivation effect, even at just 500mg. I don't think you would need the DLPA and PEA with it as well.


sorry, i should have mentioned this before...

i've used tyrosine before, around 500-1000 mg, a couple times a day (along with b/c complex), but it lost it's effectiveness pretty fast. i suspect i was simply trying to use too much, and that's why i'm looking at using it to start the day, and shift to the acetylcholine stuff later.

i'm kind of the typical stim junkie....i normally injest a lot of caffeine (from bodybuilding type products), and am currently prescribed phetermine.


i'm kind of thinking to talking to my doc about tyring Vyvanse and Wellbutriton (for my ADD, motivation and some minor depression) and then taking something like Choline Cocktail from Twinlab when i head in to work.

i've tried Strattera before (completely ineffective for me) and Focalin XR (worked well, but made me a dick), and am currently using phentermine (prescribed for weight loss, but works okay for ADD).


i'd kind of like to avoid prescription drugs, but realize i may need to go that route if i want faster results.

thanks again for the advice, and i'd appreciate any more advice....

This post makes me think that you're looking into going on a quite comprehensive regimen of stims. You might want to consider choosing only one and sticking to it at a reasonable dosage, seems a lot safer that way since you never know about interactions when it comes to these things. More than one stim such as lisdexamphetamine, bupropion and phentermine sounds questionable and a reasonable dose of either regular methylphenidate or amphetamines would probably be much more appropriate for your ADD. You could also consider modafinil if those doesn't work out. Vyvanse monotheraphy sounds like it could help; effective but with less recreational potential than regular dextroamphetamine. The dexmethylphenidate in Focalin is slightly different from other methylphenidate based ADHD drugs so you could also consider giving them another shot if you feel so inclined. Methylphenidate might not be as effective for some people but it does offer a better safety profile than the amphetamines.

#8 Tithonus

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Posted 29 March 2011 - 09:17 PM

If you want to go herbally, consider mucuna pruriens capsules. Velvet bean, as its called, contains L-dopa in the irritating hairs surrounding the bean hull. Extracts of this contain quite high amounts of straight L-dopa.

My choice for Acetyl-choline boosting would be DMAE, plus it plays double duty, serving to reduce "lipofuscin" accumulation.

And ginkgo may be good in the long run, but if you're looking for something that won't take about three months to act, consider vinpocetine. Many of the same effects, but a much faster action time. I didn't see any blood thinners listed in your current regimen, so you should be ok.

Edited by HerbalDoc, 29 March 2011 - 09:22 PM.


#9 pycnogenol

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Posted 29 March 2011 - 10:42 PM

If you want to go herbally, consider mucuna pruriens capsules. Velvet bean, as its called, contains L-dopa in the irritating hairs surrounding the bean hull. Extracts of this contain quite high amounts of straight L-dopa.


I heartily concur with taking mucuna pruriens for boosting dopamine. I take the excellent Tattvas brand.

http://www.tattvashe...ruriens,/Detail

#10 Imagination

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Posted 29 March 2011 - 10:58 PM

My choice for Acetyl-choline boosting would be DMAE, plus it plays double duty, serving to reduce "lipofuscin" accumulation.


That would be my choice too, DMAE is the only acetylcholine boosting supplement that doesn't have a negative effect on me,

#11 Logan

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Posted 30 March 2011 - 03:19 AM

My choice for Acetyl-choline boosting would be DMAE, plus it plays double duty, serving to reduce "lipofuscin" accumulation.


The lipofuscin thing was pretty much debunked.

#12 Logan

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Posted 30 March 2011 - 03:19 AM

My choice for Acetyl-choline boosting would be DMAE, plus it plays double duty, serving to reduce "lipofuscin" accumulation.


The lipofuscin thing was pretty much debunked.

#13 Logan

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Posted 30 March 2011 - 03:20 AM

If you want to go herbally, consider mucuna pruriens capsules. Velvet bean, as its called, contains L-dopa in the irritating hairs surrounding the bean hull. Extracts of this contain quite high amounts of straight L-dopa.


I heartily concur with taking mucuna pruriens for boosting dopamine. I take the excellent Tattvas brand.

http://www.tattvashe...riens%2C/Detail


Pycnogenol, how long does the effect last for you?

What is the effect like? Can you please explain it? Mood boosting? Focus enhancing? Mind performance enhancing? Physical performance enhancing?

#14 Tithonus

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Posted 30 March 2011 - 05:42 AM

If you want to go herbally, consider mucuna pruriens capsules. Velvet bean, as its called, contains L-dopa in the irritating hairs surrounding the bean hull. Extracts of this contain quite high amounts of straight L-dopa.


I heartily concur with taking mucuna pruriens for boosting dopamine. I take the excellent Tattvas brand.

http://www.tattvashe...riens%2C/Detail


Pycnogenol, how long does the effect last for you?

What is the effect like? Can you please explain it? Mood boosting? Focus enhancing? Mind performance enhancing? Physical performance enhancing?


Hence the quotes around "lipofuscin" lol. I've used velvet bean extract clinically for everything from depression to anorexia nervosa. One of my patients showed resolution with AN after 4 days. Mood boosting and a sense of accomplishment were the most reported effects. A dosage exceeding optimal will have you feeling the standard "bugs crawling under my skin" feeling though, aka formication

#15 cycobushmaster

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Posted 30 March 2011 - 03:18 PM

For dopamine i would just go for the tyrosine myself, taken with b6 for conversion, it seems to have a really good motivation effect, even at just 500mg. I don't think you would need the DLPA and PEA with it as well.


sorry, i should have mentioned this before...

i've used tyrosine before, around 500-1000 mg, a couple times a day (along with b/c complex), but it lost it's effectiveness pretty fast. i suspect i was simply trying to use too much, and that's why i'm looking at using it to start the day, and shift to the acetylcholine stuff later.

i'm kind of the typical stim junkie....i normally injest a lot of caffeine (from bodybuilding type products), and am currently prescribed phetermine.


i'm kind of thinking to talking to my doc about tyring Vyvanse and Wellbutriton (for my ADD, motivation and some minor depression) and then taking something like Choline Cocktail from Twinlab when i head in to work.

i've tried Strattera before (completely ineffective for me) and Focalin XR (worked well, but made me a dick), and am currently using phentermine (prescribed for weight loss, but works okay for ADD).


i'd kind of like to avoid prescription drugs, but realize i may need to go that route if i want faster results.

thanks again for the advice, and i'd appreciate any more advice....

This post makes me think that you're looking into going on a quite comprehensive regimen of stims. You might want to consider choosing only one and sticking to it at a reasonable dosage, seems a lot safer that way since you never know about interactions when it comes to these things. More than one stim such as lisdexamphetamine, bupropion and phentermine sounds questionable and a reasonable dose of either regular methylphenidate or amphetamines would probably be much more appropriate for your ADD. You could also consider modafinil if those doesn't work out. Vyvanse monotheraphy sounds like it could help; effective but with less recreational potential than regular dextroamphetamine. The dexmethylphenidate in Focalin is slightly different from other methylphenidate based ADHD drugs so you could also consider giving them another shot if you feel so inclined. Methylphenidate might not be as effective for some people but it does offer a better safety profile than the amphetamines.


yeah, i need to schedule an appointment wiht my doc to talk about this.... Focalin XR worked well for my ADD, but i had no sense of humor or patience with most people.

#16 pycnogenol

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Posted 30 March 2011 - 03:18 PM

If you want to go herbally, consider mucuna pruriens capsules. Velvet bean, as its called, contains L-dopa in the irritating hairs surrounding the bean hull. Extracts of this contain quite high amounts of straight L-dopa.


I heartily concur with taking mucuna pruriens for boosting dopamine. I take the excellent Tattvas brand.

http://www.tattvashe...riens%2C/Detail


Pycnogenol, how long does the effect last for you?

What is the effect like? Can you please explain it? Mood boosting? Focus enhancing? Mind performance enhancing? Physical performance enhancing?


Effect lasts about 6-8 hours. It enhances my mood and most definitely libido-enhancing.

#17 cycobushmaster

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Posted 30 March 2011 - 03:21 PM

If you want to go herbally, consider mucuna pruriens capsules. Velvet bean, as its called, contains L-dopa in the irritating hairs surrounding the bean hull. Extracts of this contain quite high amounts of straight L-dopa.

My choice for Acetyl-choline boosting would be DMAE, plus it plays double duty, serving to reduce "lipofuscin" accumulation.

And ginkgo may be good in the long run, but if you're looking for something that won't take about three months to act, consider vinpocetine. Many of the same effects, but a much faster action time. I didn't see any blood thinners listed in your current regimen, so you should be ok.


what dose is typically needed, and started off with the Mucuna? i've seen varying levels of extracts as well...seems typical to be 20%.

i like ALCAR to boost AcH (the first time i took it i got the super vivid color thing, and it has helped my tinnutis/hearing issues), but think i might try that with DMAE, and possibly Piracetam down the road....

#18 cycobushmaster

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Posted 30 March 2011 - 03:22 PM

If you want to go herbally, consider mucuna pruriens capsules. Velvet bean, as its called, contains L-dopa in the irritating hairs surrounding the bean hull. Extracts of this contain quite high amounts of straight L-dopa.


I heartily concur with taking mucuna pruriens for boosting dopamine. I take the excellent Tattvas brand.

http://www.tattvashe...riens%2C/Detail


Pycnogenol, how long does the effect last for you?

What is the effect like? Can you please explain it? Mood boosting? Focus enhancing? Mind performance enhancing? Physical performance enhancing?


Effect lasts about 6-8 hours. It enhances my mood and most definitely libido-enhancing.


huh? do you take that once a day, or mutliple times? what time of the day?

sounds interesting...

#19 pycnogenol

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Posted 30 March 2011 - 03:29 PM

huh? do you take that once a day, or mutliple times? what time of the day?

sounds interesting...



I take one capsule per day around the noon hour.

Edited by pycnogenol, 30 March 2011 - 03:34 PM.


#20 Insomniac

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Posted 30 March 2011 - 04:41 PM

most of ingredients you mentioned are in 5hour energy drink: caffeine, Phenylanine, n acetyl l-tyrosine, cdp choline, B vitamins, plus taurine, malic acid and some more, without sugar. So instead of buying supplements separately you have it all mixed together in one bottle no bigger than your thumb..Personally i liked the effects it gave me (i was more focused, motivated, chipper, talkative you name it), but be careful to stick with the rule they clearly state on the bottle (which I stupidly ignored) and that is not to take more than 2 daily, consumed several hours apart. And take it only when needed, take breaks during holidays, weekends and the like.

#21 Insomniac

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Posted 30 March 2011 - 04:50 PM

and there is some new pre workout formula, lightspeed is it's name, it looks promising, haven't tried it though, they don't ship to europe :/

#22 cycobushmaster

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Posted 30 March 2011 - 05:50 PM

and there is some new pre workout formula, lightspeed is it's name, it looks promising, haven't tried it though, they don't ship to europe :/


yeah, i tried that few months back, and wasn't too impressed by it.... 200mg of caffeine and some gingko for me is just as good, and 1/10th the price.

#23 Tithonus

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Posted 06 April 2011 - 06:46 PM

Not to mention that too much caffeine can cause adrenal fatigue. If you've been taking caffeine for an extended period of time, might be time to switch off it, give your body a chance to build your adrenals back up.

#24 cycobushmaster

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Posted 08 April 2011 - 04:19 PM

Not to mention that too much caffeine can cause adrenal fatigue. If you've been taking caffeine for an extended period of time, might be time to switch off it, give your body a chance to build your adrenals back up.


good point.

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#25 cycobushmaster

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Posted 08 April 2011 - 04:42 PM

i found this supplement, which seems like a good starting point for nootropics....any thoughts?

BrainVigor™ is the most advanced brain formula available today. It's formula has many state of the art nutritional supplements/nootropics including Piracetam, Vinpocetine, Phosphatidylserine, and a lot more. BrainVigor™ has many of the B vitamins that have been found by leading researchers to support optimal brain function, and to top it off an herbal blend of high potency Bacopa Monniera 37% bacosides A+B, Rhodiola Rosea Extract 3% Rosavins, Ginkgo Biloba Extract 24/6 and Panax Ginseng Extract 80 % ginsenosides (saponins. The Rhodiola Extract and the Ginseng Extract are adaptogenic herbs, which are herbs that helps one body to deal with stress and is also known to give energy and endurance. The Ginkgo Biloba has been used for thousand of years in China to help improve circulation to the brain and brain function. Some of the other cutting edge ingredients are listed below.

Cholinergics are chemicals that effect the neurotransmitter Acetylcholine, or the parts of our nervous system that use Acetylcholine. Acetylcholine aids memory, concentration, focus, and high-level thought such as: abstract thought, calculations, and innovation. Studies have shown that improving the abundance of Acetylcholine in the brain improves these mental functions and increases the time they may be used without slowing down or stopping. However, be aware that overuse of cholinergetics may have a detrimental effect. The cholinergetics that BrainVigor contain are Acetyl l-Carnitine, DMAE, Piracetam & Vinpocetine.

Piracetam is the most studied and well known of the nootropics. Piracetam (nootropyl) is reported to be an intelligence booster and CNS (central nervous system) stimulant with no known toxicity or addictive properties. Piracetam (2-oxo-Pyrrolidine Acetamide) is derived from the neurotransmitter GABA (Gamma Amino Butyric Acid). The subjective effect described by some people is that piracetam, "wakes up your brain." It's effects and safety are so impressive that piracetam prompted the creation of a new pharmaceutical category called nootropics. The term nootropic comes from a Greek word meaning "acting on the mind."

The effect of piracetam can be increased if taken with DMAE, choline, or Hydergine. When choline and piracetam are taken together there is a synergistic effect that causes a greater improvement in memory than the sum of each when taken alone (Bartus, 1981). One of the most intriguing effects of piracetam is that it promotes the flow of information between the right and left hemispheres of the brain (Buresova, 1976). (Note Excerpt From Smart Drugs & Nutrients Vol 1 by Ward Dean, MD & John Morgenthaler. Excellent source of information and a highly recommended book)

Dimethylaminoethanol (DMAE) is similar to choline, a chemical involved in the processes of learning and memory. It has been known to be beneficial for people with autism, memory deficiency and dementia. It is best not to take it on a daily basis, but to reserve it for days when you need to increase alertness and focus. DMAE can have a slight mood and vision enhancing effect in some people. DMAE has been used to treat America's silent epidemic: Attention Deficit Disorder.

Studies show that DMAE can elevate mood and promote more restful sleep, as well as help increase mental focus, clarity of thought and muscle tone. DMAE occurs naturally in the body. It may be useful in slowing lipofuscion (aging spots) both on the skin and in the brain. In clinical studies, DMAE supplementation has shown great success in the treatment of learning disorders in children. It is also very effective in enhancing mental performance in adults. The secret is DMAE's ability to promote the formation of acetylcholine, an important brain neurotransmitter. DMAE and para-aminobenzoic acid (PABA) are the breakdown products of the Romanian youth drug, Gerovital.

Phosphatidyl serine does all this through the following actions: Phosphatidyl serine stimulates the release of dopamine (a mood regulator that also controls physical sensations and movement), increases the production of acetylcholine (necessary for learning and memory), enhances brain glucose metabolism (the fuel used for brain activity), reduces levels of cortisol (a stress hormone), and boosts the activity of nerve growth factor, which oversees the health of cholinergic neurons.

When we reach middle age, our levels of Phosphatidyl serine begin to decline, an effect that is worsened by deficiencies of other essential fatty acids, folic acid or vitamin B12. Because Phosphatidyl serine is necessary for effective neurotransmission, Phosphatidyl serine deficiency is linked to mental impairment, including Alzheimer's and non-Alzheimer's dementia, depression and Parkinson's disease among middle-aged and elderly people.

Phosphatidyl serine supplements may give a 50-year-old the same brainpower as a healthy 20-year-old. Does this sound too good to be true? Well, according to the 2002 Bottom Line Yearbook, "Phosphatidylserine is the only medication that's been proven to reverse age-related memory loss in clinical studies." Phosphatidylserine is a phospholipid concentrated in the brain that maintains memory, learning, concentration, word recall, and mood.

R (+) Lipoic Acid is an antioxidant that contains the "R" form of Alpha Lipoic Acid. Alpha Lipoic Acid is a well known antioxidant formula that is believed to help delay the onset of aging, act as a potent antioxidant in the brain, and has applications for blood sugar regulation.


B Vitamins:

Niacinamide Vitamin B-3 is one of the water-soluble B-complex vitamins. Niacin, or nicotinic acid. Niacinamide is important for many reasons, but especially for its striking effect upon the circulatory and nervous systems. Niacinamide is very important for brain metabolism. Vitamin B3 has helped elderly patients regain mental clarity; because it dilates blood vessels, niacinamide brings more oxygen to the brain.

Vitamin B-6 (Pyridoxine HCL) is essential for the production of neurotransmitters and for healthy brain function. B6 may also alleviate symptoms including depression and irritability. Any single nutrient deficiency can alter brain function and neurotransmitter production. Neurotransmitters are chemical messengers that carry information from one nerve cell to another. The most common nutrient deficiencies associated with mood are folic acid, and vitamins B6 and B12. Deficiencies of these nutrients are related to anxiety, irritability, apathy, confusion, fatigue, forgetfulness, moodiness and depression.

Vitamin B-12: With recent biotechnology research, vitamin B12 has shown to provide significant mental health benefits to those suffering from depression, those suffering from dementia and even Alzheimer's patients. In fact, with proper dosing of B12 early in age, these same mental health and brain functioning impairments may be prevented. The most common basis on which vitamin B12 is prescribed by a healthcare professional. Once administered, patients will commonly report improved energy levels and, with improved energy, there is increased oxygen flow which, in turn, promotes healthy brain tissue and improves cognitive and reasoning processes within the brain.

Pantothenic Acid: Your body can’t make acetylcholine for intelligent thinking without using pantothenic acid, also known as vitamin B5, for its assembly from choline. So if you’re taking lecithin, choline or DMAE, you need to make sure you have a source of pantothenic acid as well. Pantothenic acid is also a stamina enhancer as it is essential for making steroid hormones, including natural cortisone, which is particularly important when you’re under stress.

Supplement Facts
Serving Size: 6 Capsules Amount Per Serv. %Daily Value
Pantothenic Acid 80 mg 1600%
B-6 (Pyridoxine HCL) 25 mg 1250%
Niacinamide 20 mg 100%
B-12 1000 mcg 16700%
Piracetam 1000 mg **
Acetyl L-Carnitine 1000 mg **
Choline Bitartrate 1000 mg **
DMAE 250 mg **
Phosphatidylserine 100 mg **
R-Lipoic Acid 100 mg **
Ginkgo Biloba 24/6 100 mg **
Bacopa Monniera 37% 100 mg **
Rhodiola Rosea Extract 100 mg **
Panax Ginseng Extract 80% 100 mg **
Vinpocetine 15 mg **




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