31 replies to this topic

[anthony15]

I'm not exactly sure of the root cause, but I just never feel 100%. I am a 23 year old male and am in pretty decent physical shape. My blood work was fine the last time that I had it taken. I eat what I believe is a fairly healthy diet and try to be kind to my body. I am not sure if it's relevant, but I have never used any type of illegal drugs.

My main problem is my inability to concentrate. I have such a difficult time focusing that I sometimes want to cry (literally). I just cannot seem to focus. If I need to write an essay or do something boring, it's an arduous task. I always feel so overwhelmed. Even something as simple as keeping my room clean feels like too much for me to handle.

I have also noticed that my memory has severely suffered ever since I took Lexapro. I took it for six months back in 2008-2009 for my OCD related issues. Even since stopping, my memory has never recovered. I used to be pretty mentally sharp, but now, I have the hardest time remembering what I did yesterday or the day before. The days seem to all merge into a blur.

I also have ongoing problems with low energy. I just never feel alert and energetic.

I was hoping that nootropics, or other supplements would help me, but I haven't had much success. This is a pretty comprehensive list of what I have tried:

1. Oxiracetam - Doesn't seem to have much of an effect. I've tried 800-2400mg/day for 3+ weeks. It makes me slightly tired, even though it's supposed to be one of the speedier racetams. I've tried it alone, as well as combining it with various dosages of CDP Choline. For some reason, CDP Choline makes me feel horrible. If I don't take the CDP Choline, I usually get a very slight headache, and the fatigue isn't as strong.

2. CDP Choline - I have taken this with Oxiracetam, and it makes me feel terrible. I'm never usually too depressed, but for some reason, this makes me feel somewhat suicidal (I ordinarily never feel this horrible). It also makes me incredibly tired to the point that I can't stay awake.

3. Piracetam - I haven't tried this product, even though I have it. I've been afraid to take it because it is from Cognitive Nutrition. From what I have read, you have to be careful with the heavy metal issue if the company doesn't provide a COA.

4. Acetyl L-Carnitine - This seems to have no effect on my energy levels at all. I have tried adding it with my Oxiracetam, but I haven't noticed any improvement.

5. Now True Focus - This has L-Tyrosine, L-Phenylalanine, Taurine, Grapeseed Extract, Potassium Ascorbate, DMAE, Ginkgo biloba, COQ10, B-6, and C. I have noticed no improvement of any kind.

6. Mental Alertness (by Gaia Herbs) - Ginkgo Lead, Gotu Kola, Pepperming Herb, Vinpocetine, and Rosemary Lead. No effect of any kind on alertness or mental acuity.

7. L-Theanine - I take this before bed. It seems to make me sleep better.

8. B Vitamins - No noticeable effect.

Can anyone make any recommendations? I would be so grateful. Everything I take seems to give me a paradoxical reaction (fatigue).

I appreciate the help.

[Germs111]

Have you thought about trying Ritalin for concentration? I suppose that's an option. Modafinil might help that area too.

edit: I might take these suggestions back. I don't know much about OCD but a very quick search showed that it is related to dopamine hyperactivity. So taking dopaminergics like Ritalin and Modafinil might worsen symptoms.

Edited by Germs111, 16 May 2011 - 09:37 PM.

[anthony15]

Have you thought about trying Ritalin for concentration? I suppose that's an option. Modafinil might help that area too.

edit: I might take these suggestions back. I don't know much about OCD but a very quick search showed that it is related to dopamine hyperactivity. So taking dopaminergics like Ritalin and Modafinil might worsen symptoms.

I have thought about trying it, but I'm really afraid of psychostimulants. I get really worried about the long-term neurotoxicity potential, but maybe I am overreacting. I can't seem to find anything that helps.

[Germs111]

You could try a low dose and cycle it - to avoid neurotoxicity. Take it, say, Mon. Wed. Fri. taking the other days off.

[fql]

Try some Sulbutiamine and Listerine

[aaron43]

I'm not exactly sure of the root cause, but I just never feel 100%. I am a 23 year old male and am in pretty decent physical shape. My blood work was fine the last time that I had it taken. I eat what I believe is a fairly healthy diet and try to be kind to my body. I am not sure if it's relevant, but I have never used any type of illegal drugs.

My main problem is my inability to concentrate. I have such a difficult time focusing that I sometimes want to cry (literally). I just cannot seem to focus. If I need to write an essay or do something boring, it's an arduous task. I always feel so overwhelmed. Even something as simple as keeping my room clean feels like too much for me to handle.

I have also noticed that my memory has severely suffered ever since I took Lexapro. I took it for six months back in 2008-2009 for my OCD related issues. Even since stopping, my memory has never recovered. I used to be pretty mentally sharp, but now, I have the hardest time remembering what I did yesterday or the day before. The days seem to all merge into a blur.

I also have ongoing problems with low energy. I just never feel alert and energetic.

I was hoping that nootropics, or other supplements would help me, but I haven't had much success. This is a pretty comprehensive list of what I have tried:

1. Oxiracetam - Doesn't seem to have much of an effect. I've tried 800-2400mg/day for 3+ weeks. It makes me slightly tired, even though it's supposed to be one of the speedier racetams. I've tried it alone, as well as combining it with various dosages of CDP Choline. For some reason, CDP Choline makes me feel horrible. If I don't take the CDP Choline, I usually get a very slight headache, and the fatigue isn't as strong.

2. CDP Choline - I have taken this with Oxiracetam, and it makes me feel terrible. I'm never usually too depressed, but for some reason, this makes me feel somewhat suicidal (I ordinarily never feel this horrible). It also makes me incredibly tired to the point that I can't stay awake.

3. Piracetam - I haven't tried this product, even though I have it. I've been afraid to take it because it is from Cognitive Nutrition. From what I have read, you have to be careful with the heavy metal issue if the company doesn't provide a COA.

4. Acetyl L-Carnitine - This seems to have no effect on my energy levels at all. I have tried adding it with my Oxiracetam, but I haven't noticed any improvement.

5. Now True Focus - This has L-Tyrosine, L-Phenylalanine, Taurine, Grapeseed Extract, Potassium Ascorbate, DMAE, Ginkgo biloba, COQ10, B-6, and C. I have noticed no improvement of any kind.

6. Mental Alertness (by Gaia Herbs) - Ginkgo Lead, Gotu Kola, Pepperming Herb, Vinpocetine, and Rosemary Lead. No effect of any kind on alertness or mental acuity.

7. L-Theanine - I take this before bed. It seems to make me sleep better.

8. B Vitamins - No noticeable effect.

Can anyone make any recommendations? I would be so grateful. Everything I take seems to give me a paradoxical reaction (fatigue).

I appreciate the help.

- Oxiracetam: I can't comment on the effectiveness, I have never tried it, but I hear its good yet short lived.

- Piracetam: Works good but needs support, I consider it a clean up hitter

- Choline could be supplemented with piracetam, but too much choline will cause depression. So if your not taking a lot of piracetam, there should not really be a need to supplement with choline especially if you incorprate eggs or beef into your diet. Helps alleviate brain fog, but not completely. I have a theory that too much choline causes depression because it actually brings back memories to the surface (though very subtle) that have negative connotations attached to them which leads to a depressed outlook on life.

- Brain fog can also be caused from the stress that piracetam puts on your adrenal glands, and from, what I noticed, low dopamine levels too. Supplementing with l-tyrosine can alleviate this yet it is short lived. L-tyrosine -> L-Dopa -> Dopamine...it is comparable in some aspects to adderall. By increasing dopamine levels. It also is not true that high dopamine levels are causing your hyperactivity, it is actually the opposite, high dopamine levels can lead to increased concentration while low dopamine levels cause hyperactivity due to the unableness to focus. I saw that you supplemented it already in the NOW foods supplement, but chances are that what your taking is not nearly enough to produce a result since it is a bunch of elements squeezed into a capsule. Not to mention L-tyrosine is a free-form amino acid so it should be taken on an empty stomach as other amino acids compete for absorption and easily kick out L-tyrosine if both are present.
- Piracetam can be bought online without purity being an issue...unless it is from china.

- Acetyl-L-Carnite is great, you may need more than what you are taking, I'd recommend around 1.5-2 grams each dosing. It is great for perceptional thinking. Also 1.5-2 grams is pushing the upper limit where it can become a pro-oxidant, so if taking that much, though not the end of the world if you dont, it should be supplemented with R-ALA to protect against the pro-oxidation of Acetyl-L-Carnitine. The R-ALA also increases energy by being a mitochondrial antioxidant and revamping the usage of vitamin A and C by the body. * Acetyl-L-Carnitine in high doses can cause you to poop, not diarrhea, but it seems like it just gets everything moving. Sometimes not pleasant. ***Also Acetyl-L-Carnitine from person experience is much much more effective when taken with food.

- Mental awareness- Id recommend vinpocetine (10mg each) 1 or twice a day, or hydergine which is great for awareness. These also potentiate everything else that you are taking so the effects of everything become more pronounced. The other ones you listed besides the two I said would have marginal effects if any.
- B-vitamins should be taken with a multi-vitamin, these should not be a focus of stack but more of a set up for optimal performance of a nootropic.

- I highly recommend Idebenone (180mg each) and you can take 2 at a time (360mg) which produces great result. Up-beat feeling, more happy, increases NGF, reduces hearing loss (questionable..it fixes temporary hearing loss) and more energy. This should be taken with fish oil because it is fat soluble, and works perfectly when Idebenone is able to saturate in the stomach from a shot of fish oil. Not to mention fish oil is great with piracetam and cognitive support.

- Also note that taking too many nootropics can lead to mental fatigue, (too much of a good thing). It is good to take everything in balance and listen to your body. Also remember that nootropics are not like drugs, in the beginning they work noticeably, but soon after they are very subtle. You won't recognize the benefits until you have been taking them consistently for a few weeks, and still then you might notice a difference as your brain may have started reporting to a new baseline meaning that your new normal feeling is the feeling you got at first, but it is very difficult to notice.

- Caffeine works well with nootropics in getting past fatigue, though l-tyrosine helps it is not the only answer, caffeine really helps on those times that you need it. There is no toxicity in caffeine, so a supplement of caffeine once or twice throughout the day is not bad, and should not be looked down upon.
- You should look into Kava Kava, go into the vitamin shoppe, buy some kava kava, take like 3 of them when your feeling hyperactive tell me if you don't feel completely relaxed. (note: tolerance builds fast so its not a complete answer) - L-theanine has the same effects, but works in a different way I'd assume.
- One more thing..I have heard of a L-Phenylaline and an l-tyrosine stack (with something else too I think) to be effective with energy output, but the dosages are still most likely higher than the concentration in the NOW foods supplement.

[aaron43]

Have you thought about trying Ritalin for concentration? I suppose that's an option. Modafinil might help that area too.

edit: I might take these suggestions back. I don't know much about OCD but a very quick search showed that it is related to dopamine hyperactivity. So taking dopaminergics like Ritalin and Modafinil might worsen symptoms.

I have thought about trying it, but I'm really afraid of psychostimulants. I get really worried about the long-term neurotoxicity potential, but maybe I am overreacting. I can't seem to find anything that helps.

Adderall/Ritalin with solid dosings of piracetam (1.5g+) really reduces the jitteryness and increases concentration. Instead of getting distracted and then really getting focused on the distraction, piracetam calms me enough and allows me to focus on what I NEED to focus on. I also saw a form that discussed the prevention of neurotoxicity from ritalin/adderall with the use of piracetam. I don't know the details but you could look into that too.

[nupi]

Are you sure you are not simply in a state of (mild?) depression? Overwhelmed by simple tasks, low energy, fatigue, inability to focus all seem quite likely to occur there - memory issues might stain from that, too.

I would try seeing a competent psychiatrist...

Edited by nupi, 18 May 2011 - 11:24 AM.

[Ark]

Might consider getting a hormonal test done, also you could have mercurey posioning or heavy metal. Consider looking into Lyme and Chronic fatigue syndrom.

Til then I say give Bacopa a try( good mental boost will clean out heavy metals from the brain)

Also energy I'd suggest Provigil

and for depression the best is Naridal, IMHO (I also like Prozac,Stablon,Zoloft,and Paxil.)


Good luck!

[Ark]

Also check out Adernal Fatigue, this is commen and fits everything your listing.

[Ark]

I'm not exactly sure of the root cause, but I just never feel 100%. I am a 23 year old male and am in pretty decent physical shape. My blood work was fine the last time that I had it taken. I eat what I believe is a fairly healthy diet and try to be kind to my body. I am not sure if it's relevant, but I have never used any type of illegal drugs.

My main problem is my inability to concentrate. I have such a difficult time focusing that I sometimes want to cry (literally). I just cannot seem to focus. If I need to write an essay or do something boring, it's an arduous task. I always feel so overwhelmed. Even something as simple as keeping my room clean feels like too much for me to handle.

I have also noticed that my memory has severely suffered ever since I took Lexapro. I took it for six months back in 2008-2009 for my OCD related issues. Even since stopping, my memory has never recovered. I used to be pretty mentally sharp, but now, I have the hardest time remembering what I did yesterday or the day before. The days seem to all merge into a blur.

I also have ongoing problems with low energy. I just never feel alert and energetic.

I was hoping that nootropics, or other supplements would help me, but I haven't had much success. This is a pretty comprehensive list of what I have tried:

1. Oxiracetam - Doesn't seem to have much of an effect. I've tried 800-2400mg/day for 3+ weeks. It makes me slightly tired, even though it's supposed to be one of the speedier racetams. I've tried it alone, as well as combining it with various dosages of CDP Choline. For some reason, CDP Choline makes me feel horrible. If I don't take the CDP Choline, I usually get a very slight headache, and the fatigue isn't as strong.

2. CDP Choline - I have taken this with Oxiracetam, and it makes me feel terrible. I'm never usually too depressed, but for some reason, this makes me feel somewhat suicidal (I ordinarily never feel this horrible). It also makes me incredibly tired to the point that I can't stay awake.

3. Piracetam - I haven't tried this product, even though I have it. I've been afraid to take it because it is from Cognitive Nutrition. From what I have read, you have to be careful with the heavy metal issue if the company doesn't provide a COA.

4. Acetyl L-Carnitine - This seems to have no effect on my energy levels at all. I have tried adding it with my Oxiracetam, but I haven't noticed any improvement.

5. Now True Focus - This has L-Tyrosine, L-Phenylalanine, Taurine, Grapeseed Extract, Potassium Ascorbate, DMAE, Ginkgo biloba, COQ10, B-6, and C. I have noticed no improvement of any kind.

6. Mental Alertness (by Gaia Herbs) - Ginkgo Lead, Gotu Kola, Pepperming Herb, Vinpocetine, and Rosemary Lead. No effect of any kind on alertness or mental acuity.

7. L-Theanine - I take this before bed. It seems to make me sleep better.

8. B Vitamins - No noticeable effect.

Can anyone make any recommendations? I would be so grateful. Everything I take seems to give me a paradoxical reaction (fatigue).

I appreciate the help.

- Oxiracetam: I can't comment on the effectiveness, I have never tried it, but I hear its good yet short lived.

- Piracetam: Works good but needs support, I consider it a clean up hitter

- Choline could be supplemented with piracetam, but too much choline will cause depression. So if your not taking a lot of piracetam, there should not really be a need to supplement with choline especially if you incorprate eggs or beef into your diet. Helps alleviate brain fog, but not completely. I have a theory that too much choline causes depression because it actually brings back memories to the surface (though very subtle) that have negative connotations attached to them which leads to a depressed outlook on life.

- Brain fog can also be caused from the stress that piracetam puts on your adrenal glands, and from, what I noticed, low dopamine levels too. Supplementing with l-tyrosine can alleviate this yet it is short lived. L-tyrosine -> L-Dopa -> Dopamine...it is comparable in some aspects to adderall. By increasing dopamine levels. It also is not true that high dopamine levels are causing your hyperactivity, it is actually the opposite, high dopamine levels can lead to increased concentration while low dopamine levels cause hyperactivity due to the unableness to focus. I saw that you supplemented it already in the NOW foods supplement, but chances are that what your taking is not nearly enough to produce a result since it is a bunch of elements squeezed into a capsule. Not to mention L-tyrosine is a free-form amino acid so it should be taken on an empty stomach as other amino acids compete for absorption and easily kick out L-tyrosine if both are present.
- Piracetam can be bought online without purity being an issue...unless it is from china.

- Acetyl-L-Carnite is great, you may need more than what you are taking, I'd recommend around 1.5-2 grams each dosing. It is great for perceptional thinking. Also 1.5-2 grams is pushing the upper limit where it can become a pro-oxidant, so if taking that much, though not the end of the world if you dont, it should be supplemented with R-ALA to protect against the pro-oxidation of Acetyl-L-Carnitine. The R-ALA also increases energy by being a mitochondrial antioxidant and revamping the usage of vitamin A and C by the body. * Acetyl-L-Carnitine in high doses can cause you to poop, not diarrhea, but it seems like it just gets everything moving. Sometimes not pleasant. ***Also Acetyl-L-Carnitine from person experience is much much more effective when taken with food.

- Mental awareness- Id recommend vinpocetine (10mg each) 1 or twice a day, or hydergine which is great for awareness. These also potentiate everything else that you are taking so the effects of everything become more pronounced. The other ones you listed besides the two I said would have marginal effects if any.
- B-vitamins should be taken with a multi-vitamin, these should not be a focus of stack but more of a set up for optimal performance of a nootropic.

- I highly recommend Idebenone (180mg each) and you can take 2 at a time (360mg) which produces great result. Up-beat feeling, more happy, increases NGF, reduces hearing loss (questionable..it fixes temporary hearing loss) and more energy. This should be taken with fish oil because it is fat soluble, and works perfectly when Idebenone is able to saturate in the stomach from a shot of fish oil. Not to mention fish oil is great with piracetam and cognitive support.

- Also note that taking too many nootropics can lead to mental fatigue, (too much of a good thing). It is good to take everything in balance and listen to your body. Also remember that nootropics are not like drugs, in the beginning they work noticeably, but soon after they are very subtle. You won't recognize the benefits until you have been taking them consistently for a few weeks, and still then you might notice a difference as your brain may have started reporting to a new baseline meaning that your new normal feeling is the feeling you got at first, but it is very difficult to notice.

- Caffeine works well with nootropics in getting past fatigue, though l-tyrosine helps it is not the only answer, caffeine really helps on those times that you need it. There is no toxicity in caffeine, so a supplement of caffeine once or twice throughout the day is not bad, and should not be looked down upon.
- You should look into Kava Kava, go into the vitamin shoppe, buy some kava kava, take like 3 of them when your feeling hyperactive tell me if you don't feel completely relaxed. (note: tolerance builds fast so its not a complete answer) - L-theanine has the same effects, but works in a different way I'd assume.
- One more thing..I have heard of a L-Phenylaline and an l-tyrosine stack (with something else too I think) to be effective with energy output, but the dosages are still most likely higher than the concentration in the NOW foods supplement.

Also for boosting NGF in the brain, I consider Lions Mane a must.

[aLurker]

Have you thought about trying Ritalin for concentration? I suppose that's an option. Modafinil might help that area too.

edit: I might take these suggestions back. I don't know much about OCD but a very quick search showed that it is related to dopamine hyperactivity. So taking dopaminergics like Ritalin and Modafinil might worsen symptoms.

I have thought about trying it, but I'm really afraid of psychostimulants. I get really worried about the long-term neurotoxicity potential, but maybe I am overreacting. I can't seem to find anything that helps.

You're definitely overreacting. Ritalin isn't neurotoxic. Modafinil isn't neurotoxic. Amphetamine is neurotoxic in high doses (eg. abuse) but has a decent safety record in clinically relevant doses for ADHD. I suggest you seek help and get an evaluation since you might have ADHD and could benefit from medication.

[tommix]

Stop using all those shits and spending your money!! Listen to me:

take the money you spend on thos crap-spend them on girl(s) (not hookers! :D ). Concentration i think you get it wrong what is concentration. If you have to learn something but you don't want to..it's hard for you to do the reading or writing - IT's NOT concentration!

In EVERYTHING what you want to do is involved DOPAMINE! So if the task for you is not interesting, does not make you brain to release dopamine- you ALWAYS will feel terrible! You will learn much less than the things you love, because when there is dopamine in the brain-brain is told to remember what you do because brain s like drug addict - addicted to dopamine!
You can drink all those supplements they will not make you to start loving to do things you hate.
You're just lazy guy!! That's the cause of everything! Start dreaming about things you want to do in life, start making yourself a better, more intelligent or more athletic guy. You HAVE TO HAVE motivation! You just don't want to do anything cause you lazy and you want to get everything with the lowest possible working on that. Start doing something and you will see-the life will start to be more interesting, more energy will be to do stuff. You're young, use your youth for something! You can depress and be couch potato later in time :D
Pills won't save you.

EDIT: MAybe this is not very intelligent advice, i myself do not drink at all, but alcohol increases dopamine, love does too, you can try to drink a LITTLE! to increase dopamine and then do your stuff. But it can make you to be addict so.. choose smart. I say better see some porn before doing something crappy, there is also some amino acid, forgot the name, you can google it who increases dopamine I did not tried, cause i'm happy and i learned how to deal with any psychological problems

Edited by tommix, 22 May 2011 - 12:04 AM.

[nito]

Might consider getting a hormonal test done, also you could have mercurey posioning or heavy metal. Consider looking into Lyme and Chronic fatigue syndrom.

Til then I say give Bacopa a try( good mental boost will clean out heavy metals from the brain)

Also energy I'd suggest Provigil

and for depression the best is Naridal, IMHO (I also like Prozac,Stablon,Zoloft,and Paxil.)


Good luck!

Would you advise to give stablon a go before the common SSRRi? I read zoloft have bad withrawal symptoms which prozac hasent. I'm thinking of giving prozac a go because of this. However stablon keeps interesting me for some reason.

[bdoris]

150mg twice a day of DHEA for one week.

And try adding Lithium carbonate or orotate to your regimen.

It would be just as much effective as Prozac - increase DA levels, the speed and efficiency of AD response and reduce cortisol levels while improving episodic memory recall.

Edited by bdoris, 22 May 2011 - 10:59 AM.

[caruga]

Stop using all those shits and spending your money!! Listen to me:

take the money you spend on thos crap-spend them on girl(s) (not hookers! :D ). Concentration i think you get it wrong what is concentration. If you have to learn something but you don't want to..it's hard for you to do the reading or writing - IT's NOT concentration!

In EVERYTHING what you want to do is involved DOPAMINE! So if the task for you is not interesting, does not make you brain to release dopamine- you ALWAYS will feel terrible! You will learn much less than the things you love, because when there is dopamine in the brain-brain is told to remember what you do because brain s like drug addict - addicted to dopamine!
You can drink all those supplements they will not make you to start loving to do things you hate.
You're just lazy guy!! That's the cause of everything! Start dreaming about things you want to do in life, start making yourself a better, more intelligent or more athletic guy. You HAVE TO HAVE motivation! You just don't want to do anything cause you lazy and you want to get everything with the lowest possible working on that. Start doing something and you will see-the life will start to be more interesting, more energy will be to do stuff. You're young, use your youth for something! You can depress and be couch potato later in time :D
Pills won't save you.

EDIT: MAybe this is not very intelligent advice, i myself do not drink at all, but alcohol increases dopamine, love does too, you can try to drink a LITTLE! to increase dopamine and then do your stuff. But it can make you to be addict so.. choose smart. I say better see some porn before doing something crappy, there is also some amino acid, forgot the name, you can google it who increases dopamine I did not tried, cause i'm happy and i learned how to deal with any psychological problems

You've been taking something: stupidity.

[caruga]

I'm not exactly sure of the root cause, but I just never feel 100%. I am a 23 year old male and am in pretty decent physical shape. My blood work was fine the last time that I had it taken. I eat what I believe is a fairly healthy diet and try to be kind to my body. I am not sure if it's relevant, but I have never used any type of illegal drugs.

My main problem is my inability to concentrate. I have such a difficult time focusing that I sometimes want to cry (literally). I just cannot seem to focus. If I need to write an essay or do something boring, it's an arduous task. I always feel so overwhelmed. Even something as simple as keeping my room clean feels like too much for me to handle.

I have also noticed that my memory has severely suffered ever since I took Lexapro. I took it for six months back in 2008-2009 for my OCD related issues. Even since stopping, my memory has never recovered. I used to be pretty mentally sharp, but now, I have the hardest time remembering what I did yesterday or the day before. The days seem to all merge into a blur.

I also have ongoing problems with low energy. I just never feel alert and energetic.

I was hoping that nootropics, or other supplements would help me, but I haven't had much success. This is a pretty comprehensive list of what I have tried:

1. Oxiracetam - Doesn't seem to have much of an effect. I've tried 800-2400mg/day for 3+ weeks. It makes me slightly tired, even though it's supposed to be one of the speedier racetams. I've tried it alone, as well as combining it with various dosages of CDP Choline. For some reason, CDP Choline makes me feel horrible. If I don't take the CDP Choline, I usually get a very slight headache, and the fatigue isn't as strong.

2. CDP Choline - I have taken this with Oxiracetam, and it makes me feel terrible. I'm never usually too depressed, but for some reason, this makes me feel somewhat suicidal (I ordinarily never feel this horrible). It also makes me incredibly tired to the point that I can't stay awake.

3. Piracetam - I haven't tried this product, even though I have it. I've been afraid to take it because it is from Cognitive Nutrition. From what I have read, you have to be careful with the heavy metal issue if the company doesn't provide a COA.

4. Acetyl L-Carnitine - This seems to have no effect on my energy levels at all. I have tried adding it with my Oxiracetam, but I haven't noticed any improvement.

5. Now True Focus - This has L-Tyrosine, L-Phenylalanine, Taurine, Grapeseed Extract, Potassium Ascorbate, DMAE, Ginkgo biloba, COQ10, B-6, and C. I have noticed no improvement of any kind.

6. Mental Alertness (by Gaia Herbs) - Ginkgo Lead, Gotu Kola, Pepperming Herb, Vinpocetine, and Rosemary Lead. No effect of any kind on alertness or mental acuity.

7. L-Theanine - I take this before bed. It seems to make me sleep better.

8. B Vitamins - No noticeable effect.

Can anyone make any recommendations? I would be so grateful. Everything I take seems to give me a paradoxical reaction (fatigue).

I appreciate the help.

I went the same route as you are doing in trying to treat my chronic fatigue syndrome, of which the worst symptom was the inability to concentrate. Specifically it was massive working memory deficits that made me mistakenly think I had an enormous procrastination/laziness problem, when it was simply an avoidance of anything that strained that 'working memory muscle'. I'm not sure why this faculty in the brain is the first to fall, but it is.

Basically you're trying to treat the problem at the symptom, not the source. You're taking augmenters rather than cures, and they can help to a degree--or they may be wringing out a sponge that is already dry, which would explain the paradoxical reaction of symptoms worsenning.

Take all internet advice with a grain of salt (including mine) as people draw from their own limited experience and, while it goes without saying, the reader sometimes forgets that it only applies to the writer and it may not apply to him. But speaking for myself, I've been responding massively well to NAC detox therapy lately. Weirdly enough NAC was one of the first supplements I tried, but I never took it properly--I.e. with plenty of fluid afterward. I think it was a cynicism toward the idea of 'detox'-- one sometimes goes from the wisdom of not being a fool to the folly of trying to avoid appearing a fool to himself. Either that or I just saw it as a glutathione precursor, I can't say for sure what made me not take it with fluids.

Anyway, I would respond to NAC inconsistently--sometimes it would give me a huge boost in energy and confidence that would last a few hours, followed by a feeling of 'ickiness' (kind of like a hangover and cold combined, then scaled back 60% in intensity) and a feeling of not wanting to do anything at all, and sometimes it would do nothing.

It was only half a year later, very recently, that I reassessed my experiences with the NAC and started taking it with fluid afterward on the theory that it will flush out poisons. Oftentimes when I merely didn't get enough sleep I would feel the 'ickiness', and recently I was starting to feel it in the mornings as well.

Just these last two days I've been going through a huge change. However, repeated experiences of thinking I've found the answer, and then turning out that I haven't, make me hesitant to state anything authoritively about it being a success story. All I say is, so far, so good--VERY good.

In any case, you may not have heavy metals, and you may not have glutathione deficiency (and I don't even know for sure that I do), but I believe the broader truth over this one will hold true for you, and that's that there's something more fundamentally wrong with you and that malaize or fatigue is just a derivative symptom of an underlying problem, be it caused by modern diet, contamination, unfortunate hereditary biology, or anything else. Augmenters will not be the answer--the body does not crave these things, even though it can benefit from them. Your body at the very least wants something in it or something out of it.

Edited by caruga, 22 May 2011 - 11:34 AM.

[sleepyaswespeak]

I would really give modafinil a try, its such a harmless thing without the side effects of coffee. It will get you up and up. Long story short-- my parents always complained I was very lazy and never wanted to pick up my stuff/study... Now modafinil had changed my life.. i ve been taking it for 6 months now. Its not a magic drug but it will help u get on your feet. The rest depends on you..your motivation, its not a magic wand that will do the work for you, but if u wanna do the work and have the motivation in you, then victory is urs. I ll write a review soon, I ve been busy studying and all that. I havent researched into all the other nnootropics people mention here, these are new to me and hope to try them some day when I have more time to put things togther. Right now Im taking modafinil, gingko and apple cider capsules to get rid of toxins..
Goodluck, life is precious to all of us , and none of us deserve to just drag but give in our 100 percent to everything we do

[Ark]

Might consider getting a hormonal test done, also you could have mercurey posioning or heavy metal. Consider looking into Lyme and Chronic fatigue syndrom.

Til then I say give Bacopa a try( good mental boost will clean out heavy metals from the brain)

Also energy I'd suggest Provigil

and for depression the best is Naridal, IMHO (I also like Prozac,Stablon,Zoloft,and Paxil.)


Good luck!

Would you advise to give stablon a go before the common SSRRi? I read zoloft have bad withrawal symptoms which prozac hasent. I'm thinking of giving prozac a go because of this. However stablon keeps interesting me for some reason.

I think you should give prozac a 4 months and then switch to stablon if your depression isn't lifted.


Also you can use Milk Thislte as a way to up the strength of the prozac.

Edited by Ark, 23 May 2011 - 12:31 AM.

[nito]

Might consider getting a hormonal test done, also you could have mercurey posioning or heavy metal. Consider looking into Lyme and Chronic fatigue syndrom.

Til then I say give Bacopa a try( good mental boost will clean out heavy metals from the brain)

Also energy I'd suggest Provigil

and for depression the best is Naridal, IMHO (I also like Prozac,Stablon,Zoloft,and Paxil.)


Good luck!

Would you advise to give stablon a go before the common SSRRi? I read zoloft have bad withrawal symptoms which prozac hasent. I'm thinking of giving prozac a go because of this. However stablon keeps interesting me for some reason.

I think you should give prozac a 4 months and then switch to stablon if your depression isn't lifted.


Also you can use Milk Thislte as a way to up the strength of the prozac.

Damn give prozac 4 months, that's a long time. I thought it would take quicker to feel the effects and judge it. Doesn't prozac take less time to work than zoloft? Why would you list prozac over stablon by the way? I've heard SSRI can be hell and shit, while stablon i think is more natural right.

[Ark]

Might consider getting a hormonal test done, also you could have mercurey posioning or heavy metal. Consider looking into Lyme and Chronic fatigue syndrom.

Til then I say give Bacopa a try( good mental boost will clean out heavy metals from the brain)

Also energy I'd suggest Provigil

and for depression the best is Naridal, IMHO (I also like Prozac,Stablon,Zoloft,and Paxil.)


Good luck!

Would you advise to give stablon a go before the common SSRRi? I read zoloft have bad withrawal symptoms which prozac hasent. I'm thinking of giving prozac a go because of this. However stablon keeps interesting me for some reason.

I think you should give prozac a 4 months and then switch to stablon if your depression isn't lifted.


Also you can use Milk Thislte as a way to up the strength of the prozac.

Damn give prozac 4 months, that's a long time. I thought it would take quicker to feel the effects and judge it. Doesn't prozac take less time to work than zoloft? Why would you list prozac over stablon by the way? I've heard SSRI can be hell and shit, while stablon i think is more natural right.

Prozac outside of gastrointestral issiues, it's super safe and has a very long track record for effectiveness and saftey. Plus you can't get a prosription for Stablon in the US of A.

[aaron43]

dam man whys everyone so quick to promoting prozac and that stuff, what happened to takin things a step at a time then adding value to yourself by accomplishing what you set out to do for yourself. Though I have no studies available I hear accomplishing things for yourself promotes serotonin and dopamine increase and is said to have no known side effects. Now don't get me wrong, some people have real depression..where no matter what they do regardless of accomplishments through their highs and lows they feel a sense of sadness, like they can't break through..I feel like to many people too easily resort to a chemical therapy to make themselves feel better about their situations and life instead of taking care of the stimulus that is making them feel the undesirable effect themselves and being happy with what they accomplished. Little rant man not directed towards anyone iv been thinkin this for a while and I just saw another instance where a man is feelin tired and lethargic and people on here so quickly prescribe some kinda antidepressent, changing who the person was born as. We give up to much as a society and settle with whats convenient and then we wonder why we become depressed.

[aaron43]

I got a negative for what?
I forgot I should have added IMHO

[nupi]

Clearly you dont understand that most people in depression are unable to get over it simply by being told to get over it. You don't tell people with a broken leg to simply get up and walking, do you?

[aaron43]

Clearly you dont understand that most people in depression are unable to get over it simply by being told to get over it. You don't tell people with a broken leg to simply get up and walking, do you?

People with a broken leg don't use pain medication to fix their problems either. They rehabilitate it through work and effort. The pain medication is to get them to the point where they can start working on it themselves and then work it back to a healthy leg. If they only continued using the medication with no work then they would soon forget that they have a broken leg, but in reality they would still have a weak leg. So clearly I understand. People want the pleasantries without the hard work. But when you get the pleasantries without the hard work, you won't know how you got there. Then when you get tested on how you got there you fail. Hard work and happiness is a balance. You can't have all happiness and no hard work. And you can't have all hard work with no happiness.
But regardless, my original point stated that this man claimed mental fatigue and inability to concentrate. Yet he gets recommendations right off the back for anti-depressants. If they didn't know what they were doing, they might take that recommendation seriously. Come on man am I the only one that sees the dumbness in it.

[nupi]

But I doubt anyone is advocating just taking the anti depressants and do nothing after that. So yes, its quite similar to giving people pain killers to allow them to proceed with therapy or really just get on with their life without being in constant agony while the leg heals. Trust me, I had one really painful surgery in my life and while the pain is more acute, depression in many ways more disabling than physical pain.

And people largely suggested he should think about whether there might be an underlying depression, not jump to antidepressants straight away (since those are prescription-only he would also at least have to see a doctor which one would hope would talk to him about it and get a diagnosis, although I will admit not all docs will bother with this).

[aaron43]

The majority of people who take anti-depressants don't change the stimulus that is causing the depression. They take them, because they feel that they are not happy with their current situation so in order to fill satisfied they change the chemical composition in their brain to allow them to fill satisfaction with the current situation. Id say, having much experience in this subject, that people are not willing to take the time to change the stimulus, whether it is too hard or to complicated or not being motivated enough. They resort to chemical alterations to come to terms with their outside environment; instead of coming to terms with their inner self and changing the outside environment to meet their terms.

Like I said earlier we give up too easily, and settle with whats convenient instead of working hard for what we want.

Take doing push ups for example if you never worked out. If you have never worked out, the chances are that you are probably weak. And when one day you decide to do pushups because you find yourself distraught over the lack of strength, you find out that they are not as easy as you envisioned; that your muscles ache, you start sweating ect. Most people will think "damn this sucks". Then people resort to taking some sort of chemical to make it easier on themselves that may include side effects to the natural body. In reality they didn't even give the hard work a legitimate chance to pay off on its own and will never really experience the satisfaction of hard work directly leading to improvements which directly leads to satisfaction. Taking medications like anti-depressents allow us just to jump from a problem to satisfaction. So when it comes down to it, when the medication is no longer in the system, the person would have no experience to lean on that would lead them to get what they want out of life naturally without medication. Anti-depressents are a band aid. Not a solution. Id say the majority of people take anti-depressents as a solution, not a band aid.

Not saying you are, not saying anyone here is. Im just saying we are so quick to dismiss hard work and so quick to encourage medication that we will surely notice a loss in our drive (motivation) to do anything due to the fact that any situation can be solved at the tip of a pill.

We need to start making "hard work" cool instead of medications.

And I agree, if you need to supplement with something to get you passed a certain time of stress, like I have with adderall, that is no problem. The problem starts happening when one starts relying on the medication more than the hard work.

Edited by aaron43, 25 May 2011 - 12:23 AM.

[nupi]

Anti-depressents are a band aid. Not a solution. Id say the majority of people take anti-depressents as a solution, not a band aid.

True and I fear I am guilty of that myself, although I am not entirely sure if there is not something more fundamentally wrong with my neurochemistry (my long going anhedonia and high level of largely irrational worrying/baseline anxiety are unlikely to be directly related to more obvious problems that I feel I should be able to get over but so far clearly failed) that is partially being addressed by the medication and would not really go away by just "getting over things".


In any case, dismissing antidepressants too easily seems like a disservice to many, as that can serve a very important role in getting things of the ground and people may be hesitant to try because of social stigma or whatever. Because even if people get stuck taking them without addressing the root cause, that will more than likely improve their perceived quality of life. Dissuading them from doing that seems rather cruel to me.

Edited by nupi, 26 May 2011 - 04:51 AM.

[nito]

The majority of people who take anti-depressants don't change the stimulus that is causing the depression. They take them, because they feel that they are not happy with their current situation so in order to fill satisfied they change the chemical composition in their brain to allow them to fill satisfaction with the current situation. Id say, having much experience in this subject, that people are not willing to take the time to change the stimulus, whether it is too hard or to complicated or not being motivated enough. They resort to chemical alterations to come to terms with their outside environment; instead of coming to terms with their inner self and changing the outside environment to meet their terms.

Like I said earlier we give up too easily, and settle with whats convenient instead of working hard for what we want.

Take doing push ups for example if you never worked out. If you have never worked out, the chances are that you are probably weak. And when one day you decide to do pushups because you find yourself distraught over the lack of strength, you find out that they are not as easy as you envisioned; that your muscles ache, you start sweating ect. Most people will think "damn this sucks". Then people resort to taking some sort of chemical to make it easier on themselves that may include side effects to the natural body. In reality they didn't even give the hard work a legitimate chance to pay off on its own and will never really experience the satisfaction of hard work directly leading to improvements which directly leads to satisfaction. Taking medications like anti-depressents allow us just to jump from a problem to satisfaction. So when it comes down to it, when the medication is no longer in the system, the person would have no experience to lean on that would lead them to get what they want out of life naturally without medication. Anti-depressents are a band aid. Not a solution. Id say the majority of people take anti-depressents as a solution, not a band aid.

Not saying you are, not saying anyone here is. Im just saying we are so quick to dismiss hard work and so quick to encourage medication that we will surely notice a loss in our drive (motivation) to do anything due to the fact that any situation can be solved at the tip of a pill.

We need to start making "hard work" cool instead of medications.

And I agree, if you need to supplement with something to get you passed a certain time of stress, like I have with adderall, that is no problem. The problem starts happening when one starts relying on the medication more than the hard work.

I have tried battling it for like 3 years. Tried SWJ and other natural stuff, pretty much tried lots of nootropics. My depression seems to hold be back from succeeding at university which has made me fall behind my peers twice. I would only give them a go to overcome the period at university since my depression started and is linked to my university studies. As soon as i would graduate i would ditch them as i dont think the depression would hold me back from pursuing a good job and relationship. It's so bad that i dont see any other route. To keep attending my university everyday knowing you hate it and only do it because you know it's crucial dampens my performance. I also believe the depression has worsened my cognitive abilities, i don't seem to grasp things as easy as i used to.

Another thing is that i am a chronic masturbator, i have a very very high libido, which impacts my ability to turn up on time and do my studies without thinking about sex. I don't study at home as it gives me the opportunity to browse porn which forced me to make unnecessary journeys and thus make me lose study time. Once a class is finished or i am finished for the day i go to a computer room and hang on facebook and talk to pretty chics for hours. Anti-depressant could deal with libido as far as i am concerned.

Now one detergent which is an option to me could be moving in with a friend which obviously would distract me from watching porn. But all in all, i dont feel comfortable in my own skin at the moment, i want to feel normal, not over analyze everything as i go along, stop thinking about sex all the time, change habits, stop disliking myself, start loving what i used to (fotball (soccer), basketball etc), not go in to a shop, bus or a train and feel all eyes are on me and feel like a shoplifter, thief, or a criminal even though i have enough cash and dress nice, start taking my studies seriously for once, pretty much just start taking myself serious for once.

I do socialize, although i hate eating in dining places where they are women around, especially pretty ones for fear of vomiting. I smile, laugh, and love having a joke. But once that stops and im back to my house , the darkness begins, i start to have negative thoughts again. Anyways sorry for the long post. It felt nice just letting it out. I have had CBT sessions but i felt like an idiot lol, and stopped.

If you have any reccomendations please do so. Thanks for reading.

[aaron43]

dude...im not a dam psychologist.
why dont you see if you actually throw up when you talk to the sexiest girl in the room.

Edited by aaron43, 27 May 2011 - 04:15 AM.