39 replies to this topic

[scottl]

http://www.thewayofs...l-religion.html


Real Religion
by Ken Lloyd Russell

Real religion must be in service of truth. When religion serves personal or social gratification, it is no longer a real religion but becomes an appendage of society and serves the unconscious aims of society...

[susmariosep]

http://www.thewayofs...l-religion.html


Real Religion
by Ken Lloyd Russell

Real religion must be in service of truth. When religion serves personal or social gratification, it is no longer a real religion but becomes an appendage of society and serves the unconscious aims of society...

Dear Scottl:

I like to know about the background credentials of Ken Lloyd Russell.

My impression from the above quoted paragraph from Russell(?) is that the man is talking in codified phrases or statements, namely, words said again and again down the ages that people can't be provoked to think about the thoughts supposedly embedded in them, very deep and crucial to mankind.

I invite you to tell me what is religion according to your own observation and formulation.

Or in one hundred words or less what is the man saying in man-in-the-street (mits) language.

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!

Susma

[stranger]

What is the man saying?

Come on man. You said it yourself in one of your previous posts. And in just a few words. Don't try to put Scott here to the test to make yourself appear such an
intellect.

Religion, the church, is just a place for people to socialize and get together.

In that, I agree with this man(Russell). That is not real, or true, religion. And while I have nothing against it, I think that is, in a way ,hypocritical. That, due to the fact that they consider themselves religious.

stranger

[susmariosep]

Real religion must be in service of truth. When religion serves personal or social gratification, it is no longer a real religion but becomes an appendage of society and serves the unconscious aims of society...

I think the man should have employed more concrete terms, instead of abstract ones.

Suppose you tell me, Stranger, five things that the paragraph is intended to convey to you.

If anything, it raises more questions than answers which are themselves also very vague. What I feel the man is trying to effect is to make you feel guilty for not doing what real religion which you are presumably in profession of is designed to attain for human beings.

Now is that a dense statement? Hehehehehe.


By the way, Stranger, I thought you were going to tell me more about the gods and goddesses you have verbal or conceptual intercourse with. And I was asking you whether they could be of some assistance when it comes to such mundane trials, as looking for a small screw that falls to the floor.

you see I imagine there are naughty fraction-of-a-centimeter flighty fellows who kick such very small screws as they land on the floor, to prevent guys like me from ever locating them again. Next time you are occupied with repairing some tiny contraption whose parts are fastened together by even smaller screws, and you happen to drop one of them to the floor, uncarpeted floor of your workshop, that is, see if you can find it again -- unless you bring in the vacuum cleaner and suck up all the dust and tidbit debris on the floor from side to side and corner to corner.

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year, or Happy Holidays if appropriate for you.

Susma

[Lazarus Long]

Next time you are occupied with repairing some tiny contraption whose parts are fastened together by even smaller screws, and you happen to drop one of them to the floor, uncarpeted floor of your workshop, that is, see if you can find it again -- unless you bring in the vacuum cleaner and suck up all the dust and tidbit debris on the floor from side to side and corner to corner.

I have a wonderfully powerful magnet on a broom stick that picks up everything ferrous that can be magnetized, which is 75% of all screws at least. It even finds needles in the haystacks )

[susmariosep]

That is a very useful gift for Christmas, Thanks Lazarus Long.

Susma

[stranger]

Susma,

"Now is that a dense statement? Hehehehehe""

I'm glad you pointed it out. It's the best piece of crap to date. Talk about abstract. Not even close. This is pure crap. Only you know what you're saying.

As far as the gods and goddesses are concerned,no, I never said I was gonna tell you anything about them. But go ahead, make all the fun you want. The Lord of Death can fend for himself, anytime. Just beware of things that go 'bump' in the night. I can promise you, you're gonna s--- in your pants. Yeah, laugh all you want. While you still can.

stranger,

[stranger]

Lazarus Long,

You don't have the guts to speak to me more directly?

If not, well, I know what you can do with your super magnet.

Stick it where the sun don't shine. Be sure to share it with Susma. You seem destined for each other.


stranger

[Lazarus Long]

Lazarus Long,

You don't have the guts to speak to me more directly?

If not, well, I know what you can do with your super magnet.

Stick it where the sun don't shine. Be sure to share it with Susma. You seem destined for each other.


stranger

No wonder you are *stranger.*

Is that a chip on your shoulder?

I wasn't speaking to you at all and these are the first words you present to me?

Now I get it; you want a present too.

Oh! How abominably inconsiderate of me; Por Dios!

Are you somehow jealous of the attention paid to others?

Here is a lollipop, now go suck on it please and enjoy.

In a pragmatic manner I was offering a sensible device to solve a mundane problem. You are free to use the same method in order to *nitpick* to your heart's content. It was Susma that suggested he had a simple problem, which could be solved through the simple solution I offered.

Please don't go out of your way to be kind. Perhaps it is because you're afraid you could lose something or be hurt by being considerate?

Or is it that you resent when others are simply kind to one another in spite of their differences?

I do not particularly agree with Susma and in fact I am relatively uninterested in the general discussion of religion. I thought Scott's proffered article essentially correct from the standpoint of Evolutionary Psychology but you can basically go back to your less than epic struggle with Susma. It's easy enough to ignore.

Though it does appear that you have ego issues now don't you?

Just can't stand not being the center of attention?

Susma didn't start this thread and you don't monopolize it either. As for Russell his perspective is common enough; not much new there either but it was rationally presented. It really revolves around one's definition of religion.

Is it the self generated spirituality of philosophy or the institutionally derived infrastructure of social systems and their pedagogy (dogma)?

Since I don't belong to any religion and was raised as feral heathen child in the urban jungle I tend to favor the idea that Russell is misusing the term *religion* through confusing the two (spirituality & religion). His critique IMO is actually for institutionalized *religion* in the manner of *schools of thought* also known as sects.

By his description of True Religion, Russell is describing the basis of metaphysical musing in philosophy that is the starting point of what some might consider an oxymoron, rational spirituality.

There do you feel better now that you have my attention stranger?

There is no need to throw a tantrum stranger.

Just ask me to weigh in if you care about what I think.

However if you don't care then why throw a fit?

Please, don't be a stranger. [lol]

[Lazarus Long]

Here is a present for everyone.

Artist: The who
Song: Christmas
Album: Tommy


(Father:)

Did you ever see the faces of children
They get so excited.
Waking up on christmas morning
Hours before the winter sun's ignited.
They believe in dreams and all they mean
Including heavens generosity.
Peeping round the door
to see what parcels are for free
In curiosity.

And Tommy doesn't know what day it is.
Doesn't know who Jesus was or what praying is.
How can he be saved?
From the eternal grave.

Surrounded by his friends he sits so silently,
And unaware of everything.
Playing poxy pin ball
picks his nose and smiles and
Pokes his tongue at everything.
I believe in love
but how can men who've never seen
Light be enlightened.
Only if he's cured
will his spirits future level ever heighten.

And Tommy doesn't know what day it is.
Doesn't know who Jesus was or what praying is.
How can he be saved?
>From the eternal grave.

Tommy can you hear me?
Tommy can you hear me?
Tommy can you hear me?
How can he be saved?

(Tommy:)

See me, feel me
Touch me, heal me.
See me, feel me
Touch me, heal me!

Tommy can you hear me?
Tommy can you hear me?
Tommy can you hear me?
How can he be saved?

[susmariosep]

For me, even though born into Catholicism and raised up one and lived one even to this day, yet as I like to play around with my own designation as a postgraduate Catholic -- for I am one person who is a natural preserver or hoarder, I am perfectly at home with atheism, agnosticism, secularism, infidelism, deism, whatever, and even a-religion. Maybe they or I myself should identify myself as a cultural Christian of the Catholic brand.

I mean for me religions among themselves specially among the theistic ones are reminiscent of the pot calling the cauldron black.

In writing about religion and in particular about Buddhism always with a critical if not indifferent attitude, fundamentally from a desire to be curious about its true character as I would like to fathom such character, I have time and again arrived at insights which for myself at least satisfy my curiosity, in the same way that as a child and even today I would open man-made contraptions to see how they really work.

Now these insights will make some people yawn but I am happy to have come to them by talking religion in message boards.

1. Religions are like pots and cauldrons calling each other black.

2. Buddhism is life-denying instead of life-affirming, navel-gazing instead of amazed with nature, the world, and the universe outside the illusive mind of the navel-gazing meditationist.

3. Religion and superstition relate to each other like again the pot calling the cauldron black; if I were a prince having a realm to govern I would adopt the criterion that any belief is superstition which leads to acts against life preservation or life enhancement or life ennoblement.

4. If you study the religious thinkers talking about their teachings, all founded upon their navel-gazing mental calisthenics or aerobics, you will come to the conclusion that it is all babble. At the end of the day it's like the horse marchant delivering an ass and talking into the night that the ass is better than the horse you ordered.

Hehehehe and Hahahahaha!

Again from my Catholic Christian culture, Merry Christmas and Happy New Year, everyone!

Susma

[susmariosep]

Real Religion
by Ken Lloyd Russell

Real religion must be in service of truth. When religion serves personal or social gratification, it is no longer a real religion but becomes an appendage of society and serves the unconscious aims of society...

Here is my take on the paragraph above, using concrete perspectives, which is Susma's #1 Rule for man-in-the-street writing, for men in the street of which the number is almost infinite.

Make Christ or Buddha or Mohammad smile, do something, say something nice to your neighbors for their sake. Think not what's coming to your pocketbook, or how your kind of folks would look more uppity than others; otherwise Christ, Buddha, and Mohammad would look like your bagman or spin artist.

Susma

[scottl]

Susma,

Your posts say much about you and not so much about Ken Russell, Bhuddism, religion....I do not even know where to begin.

That is not even remotely what Ken Russell is pointing towards (it would be closer to say it is pointing 180 degrees away from where he is pointing).

What you are doing is the equivalent of a freshman college student picking up a graduate physics text and translating the text into his own words.

Edited by scottl, 26 December 2004 - 08:55 AM.

[susmariosep]

I started a thread on What to do with Nootropi, in order to examine why some people here are unhappy enough with him to ask the powers here to ban him.

I apologize for in many a post I also write the way he does, very scathingly and without any concern for diplomacy.

About Ken Russell, I do not know the man from Adam and Eve. Why then do I react to the excerpt reproduced by Scottl? May I just say that just like any observant human -- even now I feel I am getting to be like Nootropi, so I will abstain from scathing undiplomatic language, I make mental comments about anything and everything I see or people make visible to me in my line of sight, most of the time and this is not a good habit, without trying to see the bigger picture visible and invisible, present and past and future. In a forum online, I tend to share my mental notes spontaneously; but in real life I do this act with a humorous slant, which also I want to achieve in message boards. The result maybe for me is to provoke new or different reactions to apparently consensual stands already adopted by people.

About my being confusing, not to be again scathingly undiplomatic, I am sorry to say to the people here who find me confusing, inconsistent, contradictory in my posts in different sections and even in the same section, and worst of all even in the same thread and one that I myself have started, I don't have a consistent position on a lot of issues which are not essential to the few tenets I hold dear, some of which are free thought, free speech but civil, free criticism, yes of course freedom of religion but no bedlam or no physical and moral assault owing to religion.

For example, in connection with that thread I started about Buddhism and superstition where I seek to see superstitions in Buddhism, I have been toying several days now to launch an opposite thread on Buddhism as a very rational non-superstitious religious philosophy, with myself taking the positive advocacy, which I am sure will stir up a lot of consternation with people who had been arguing or seeking to show me how Buddhism is not superstitious but rational and very logical.

What am I doing in net forums? Playing, with thoughts and thought expression, and seeing how others do similarly, and very important in the process learning sometimes something very enlightening to me for my education about life and knowledge.


Susma

[susmariosep]

Well, I looked up the site referred to by Scottl, http://www.thewayofs...l-religion.html, to see the credentials of Ken Lloyd Russell.

This is what I find interesting in the man's self-biography in his own site:

... He was attracted to and became proficient in GestaltTherapy, a highly experiential psychotherapy that moved well beyond the verbiage typical of traditional approaches. ...

A near-fatal auto accident led Ken to begin questioning the direction of his life. ...  In the winter of 1970-71, while participating in a research program at the New Jersey Neuropsychiatric Institute in Princeton, studying non-drug-altered states of consciousness, he experienced several major mystical openings. In the fall of 1971, he had a powerful awakening experience with Joshu Sasaki Roshi, a Rinzai Zen master, after which Ken dedicated his life to the spiritual path.

For the next five years, he devoted himself to studying with renowned masters in a variety of traditions. He was especially attracted to Buddhism and underwent rigorous training with Tarthang Tulku Rimpoche in the application of Tibetan practices to the contemporary world, subsequently becoming a teacher at the Tibetan Nyingma Institute in Berkeley. He also was trained and certified in what was then called the Fisher-Hoffman Process (now the Quadrinity Process), a very deep working through of childhood programming. He took people through this process in Berkeley and New York, and evolved his own way of integrating spiritual and mystical elements with the psychological. Ken also studied energy work and transmission with Brugh Joy, MD, incorporating elements of that in his ongoing work with people.* During this period he also studied with a Sufi mystic, a Hasidic rabbi, a vipassana master, and a native Mexican teacher with whom he spent five months in Oaxaca.

In the fall of 1976, a compelling inner prompting directed him to India where he remained for almost five years. His experience in India was very intense, comparable to living fifty years in five. In 1983, after taking nearly a year and half to integrate his life-altering experiences, he began offering his teaching, the Way of Seeing, first in San Francisco, then in Manhattan, and finally settling near Seattle.

In 1997, following the death of a beloved companion, he took a sabbatical from his teachings and assumed the role of student so that he could explore some very deep issues brought to the surface by that death. He traveled extensively in the United States and Europe, but it was a two-month stay in India that brought closure and fulfillment to the mystical openings of 1970-71. This two-month stay actually had a greater effect on him than his previous five years there. After taking time to integrate his realization, Ken resumed teaching in 1999, returning to his home near Seattle.


© 2004 Vidyana Foundation. All rights reserved.
www.thewayofseeing.com

I am sorry, but I am not impressed by his credentials. But I would be if in addition to those listed in his bio he also everyday cleans the streets of his town for two hours, or collects garbage and brings them to the dumpsite, or does an Albert Schweitzer, by just spending two hours everyday for the rest of his active years, washing the deerelicts of his local skid row, and mending their wounds and sores even with just basic band-aid remedies.

No, I am not into any of the activities I would like to see in Ken. And I don't teach for a fee people how to lead a genuine spiritual life either.

But I must congratulate him for having maneuvered his life into a very "self holier than thou position" and teacher at that, and make a good comfortable living from it.

Susma

*Bolding done by me.

[susmariosep]

Ken also studied energy work and transmission with Brugh Joy, MD, incorporating elements of that in his ongoing work with people.

And who is Burgh Joy with whom Ken Lloyd Russell studied energy work and transmission?

Search Results

Results 1 - 10 of about 3,050 for Brugh Joy - 0.17 sec. (About this page)

WEB RESULTS

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Birds of the same feather.

Susma

[susmariosep]

Try this exercise, in the three paragraphs in the box below, which is the one written by Ken Lloyd Russell.

1. If, for a while, the ruse of desire is calculable for the uses Of discipline soon the repetition of guilt, justification, pseudo-scientific theories, superstition, spurious authorities, and classifications can be seen as the desperate effort to ‘normalize’ formally the disturbance of a discourse of splitting that violates the rational, enlightened claims of its enunciatory modality. The ambivalence of colonial authority repeatedly turns from mimicry - a difference that is almost nothing but not quite - to menace - a difference that is almost total but not quite. And in that other scene of colonial power, where history turns to farce and presence to ‘a part’ can be seen the twin figures of narcissism and paranoia that repeat furiously, uncontrollably.


2. The optimum model of religious realism is the bridge between sexual identity and consciousness. But we must guard against the use of the semantic paradigm of narrative to attack sexist mysticism, which is legally an absurdity, and eventually a lapse of transcendence merging with consciousness. Nontheless prepatriarchial culture should have pointed out the path to authentic union with the grand mind even before the rise of literate society. An example of the paradigm of narrative is the Tripitaka of Buddhist enthusiasts. Compare that to the Parables of the Kingdom much favored by the followers of Jesus. Beware then and again falling from the perch of nihilism to trap one’s extinction in the folds of Kundalini. As one enters the Cloud of Unknowing, the quietist and the agnostic shake hands and Buddha and Christ and Mohammad take repast together. Let no one then ever busy himself with Enlightenment or Nirvana or ecstasy in the bosom of the father, when existence is mind and mind is the cosmos. But all is illusion, and delusion, and frustration, tediousness of the spirit.

3. In my dharma there are two processes happening concurrently. One is the continual weakening and dissolving of dysfunctional personality patterns through seeing or awareness. As our energy is no longer caught up in struggling with ourselves or the world, it becomes easier to contact our innate and uncorrupted true nature, variously termed Buddha-nature, Christ consciousness, the soul, the Self, and so forth. This allows the second process, the healing of our consciousness by the inner teacher and an increasing sense of direction from within. The two processes work simultaneously and assist each other. Deepening contact with our inner being provides an increasing experience of intrinsic health and joy; this makes it easier to deal with restrictive and life-dampening programming. And with the lessening of these programs, we are more in contact with our inner being, which increases our sense of ease and joy in life.

Happy hunting.

Susma

[stranger]

Lazarus,

"It was Susma that suggested he had a simple problem"

Are you playing dumb,or what? Or are you really that dumb? Why are you overlooking the point of his statement? Or maybe, just maybe, you really were more concerned with actually helping the dunce find the little screw that fell out of his head.

If you didn't notice the sarcasm and the mocking, then you're not actually paying attention to what has actually been discussed here. Especially this.

"I imagine they are naughty fraction-of-an-inch flighty fellows who kick such very small screws as they land on the floor to prevent guys like me from ever locating them again."

If you're forgetting, he was referring to my guides(gods).

Well, I'll tell you one thing. I don't give a damn if you or anyone else doesn't believe in a God or gods. What I'm not gonna stand by and do nothing about is people making fun of my guides.

Yes, I did overreact, but it only looked like you were laughing alongside the bobo.

Now you're saying that you were only trying to offer another solution.
Well, next time, pay closer attention to what is being said. This is not a gadget thread.

As far as your 'invention' is concerned, maybe you were too eager to tell us about it. You can give it to Susma. He really needs a 'back' scratcher. Or keep it yourself, but refer to it as, Susma's back scratcher.

If I had known your true(?) intentions, I wouldn't have cut you off as brutally as I did. Next time, when you see two dogs fighting, I would advise you to stay away a little further. Unless, and that is what the forums are for, you want a piece of the action.

I don't mind the agnostics not believing any of this stuff about religion. But I'm not gonna let a self-proclaimed 'postgraduate' (whatever the hell that means) Catholic,
who keeps on flip-flopping ,for convenience, on all the issues, try to tell the people here about religion. As far as I'm concerned, it's people like him who give religion or spirituality the worst image. After all, it's the very Catholics leader that are up to their ears in crap right now.


stranger

[stranger]

Sorry for the typo on the last line.

It's the Catholic leaders that I was referring to. Most of them anyway. It's no wonder the Protestant branches came into being. These self-righteous Catholics can't seem to practice what they preach. I'm just sorry for the people who feel they are 'being' taken care of by those so called leaders of their church.

[stranger]

Susma,

Your conclusion regarding the religious thinkers is only your opinion. It's your right to think that way. But the way you describe them is more fitting for you.

"At the end of the day it's like the horse merchant delivering an ass and talking into the night that the ass is better than the horse you ordered."

Those are your words. In my opinion, You are not only like the merchant, but also much more like the product he delivered.

The Christmas gift from Lazarus is gonna come in handy.

As far as you Hehehehehe smirks are concerned, I hope you're still laughing.


stranger

[susmariosep]

Dear Stranger:

Honestly I didn't have in mind at least not intentionally and deliberately and consciously your guides, when I talked about small frightly fellows roaming on the floor and kicking away screws I drop.

I would tell my wife everytime such screws get lost about these chaps, and she would tell me not to be superstitious. And I would assure her that I am not being superstitious, and sing these verses:

All things bright and beautiful,
All creatures great and small;
All things wise and wonderful,
The Lord God made them all.

Something like that.

The wife is an independent-minded Evangelical Christian but in practical matters like me, whose religion consists in a sense of religion but carrying the self-made title of postgraduate Catholic.

About your gods and goddesses, I am honestly and seriously most interested to know how to contact them and communicate with them or talk with them the way you do.

We are living in very skeptical times specially in regard to entities and items of the religious world, so that when people ask about gods and goddesses like yours truly, people like you think and react as though we are mocking you.

Why am I interested to know and interact with your guides? Why not? For one very advantageous concern of mine, I am always keen on such things, because I don't spend much time with guys in the neighborhood or in the office or from my extended family or in-laws, meaning I limit social contacts to a decent measure, because it takes time and more importantly travel and trouble and cost. So if I can have conversation with gods and goddesses as you know them, my social life would be more enjoyable without so much time and trouble and travel and cost. You get the idea, I guess.

I was asking you whether I could cultivate contact with them, without having gone through the whole process you went through with Hindu religious masters and years and labors of arriving at your expertise. And to date you have not given me any hints in this direction. Quick and easy process to everything good in life, that's what I always look for, owing to our limited allotment of years, each and everyone here -- while they look for immortality means and ways.

Please help me.

Susma

[scottl]

Susma,

Is english your primary (first) language?

[susmariosep]

No, English is not my mother tongue, but all my schooling had been done in English and also all my readings are done in English; and can you imagine that I also think and dream in English. Yes, and all my communication with my fellowmen is almost 90% in English. I would not be intelligent in any way without English, I mean in my thoughts and words.


Scottl, will you do me a favor, and try to see which of the three excerpts I set out in an earlier post is from Ken Lloyd Russell?

Have you read my thread on What to do with Nootropi?


Yes, maybe that is the trouble with my posts, people get the idea that I am mocking them because my command of English is peculiar, in that people reading my English get the feeling that I am being intentionally though indirectly or subtly making fun of them or even insulting them.

Maybe if people conduct themselves as reading machines, limiting themselves to concepts and grammar, then they will not get offended with my kind of English, and get really what I am saying in terms of plain ideas and not feelings.


Susma

[scottl]

Susma,

1. "Yes, maybe that is the trouble with my posts, people get the idea that I am mocking them because my command of English is peculiar, in that people reading my English get the feeling that I am being intentionally though indirectly or subtly making fun of them or even insulting them."

Yes you are absolutely correct. If one does not think to ask the language question, that is exactly what people think.

2. Russell must have written the third one, but taken out of context it is difficult to see what he is talking about. I'm too tired to attempt an explanation tonight.

"In my dharma there are two processes happening concurrently. One is the continual weakening and dissolving of dysfunctional personality patterns through seeing or awareness. As our energy is no longer caught up in struggling with ourselves or the world, it becomes easier to contact our innate and uncorrupted true nature, variously termed Buddha-nature, Christ consciousness, the soul, the Self, and so forth. This allows the second process, the healing of our consciousness by the inner teacher and an increasing sense of direction from within. The two processes work simultaneously and assist each other. Deepening contact with our inner being provides an increasing experience of intrinsic health and joy; this makes it easier to deal with restrictive and life-dampening programming. And with the lessening of these programs, we are more in contact with our inner being, which increases our sense of ease and joy in life."

3. If you (or anyone) tries the exercise here:

http://www.thewayofs...meditation.html

You will find it very helpful in dealing with stress.

4. I think I briefly read part of something you wrote on Nootropi about making him post in a different area until he comes to his senses. That is difficult in practice.

He does mean well.

[stranger]

Susma,

" And to date you have no given me any hints in this direction( contact with the religious masters)."

Some time back, in your thread on Buddhism, you were inquiring from some of the guys here about such philosophy. There were a few volunteers, including myself. I told you that Buddhism ,like most philosophies or religions, was kinda multifaceted. I suggested you try and learn something about Tibetan Buddhism.
And I specifically mentioned the books by the Lama , Tuesday Lobsang Rampa.
I said it then, and I'll say it again. This Lama, wrote many books, but if you read his autobiography, ''The Third Eye'', you'll get a complete picture of the Tibetan sytem. This man was sent to the the monastery at the young age of six, so, it is very easy to understand what he's talking about. I can assure you, though, once you read such book, you'll want to get your hands on every book he wrote. The only problem is that those books are not too easy to get a hold of, except maybe for the first one. Also, there's not much on the internet. There's a little something here and there.

When I was first contacted by the Hindu masters in 1982, I was lucky to have already read his autobiography. That's because, the Hindu masters actually borrowed a page or two from the Tibetan teachings Rampa talks about. I guess, I was actually guided to read that book and the Hindu 'bible' a little while before they finally made contact. In his autobiography, Rampa talks a lot about the intense fasting practices imposed on him by his superiors, even from the first day he arrived at the first monastery. I'm pretty sure that if I hadn't been familiar with his hardships I would have gone insane when my first two teachers demanded that I do just the same. Fasting. It doesn't sound like much, until you have to do it. Again. And again, and again. I had to undergo such austerities for various reasons. The main one was, they were sending me back from the hereafter. I had to perform some sacrifice in return. Two, it served to burn away my past (bad) karma. And three, they wanted my undivided attention. I went through a series of discussions regarding everything that I was going through. In the few months that I performed the crash fasting, it seemed like thousands of years had gone by. That's where I experienced the valley of death, the Christians talk about.
Besides the physical pain, the anguish is almost insurmountable. It is a sadness beyond description. Like going to your own funeral. Again and again and again.
Time doesn't move when you're stuck in such a predicament. My past life was reviewed again and again. My 'future' life was outlined. And especially , the understanding that I would always be under their direction. They stated that I would never be allowed to 'run wild' again. These first two teachers were doing me a favor by extending my current physical life, but when it came to the teachings, sometimes they were totally without emotion. I guess they wanted me to experience some hell. Looking back, in retrospect, I now understand that it wasn't even strictly only their will. The 'force' winds down from the higher realms.

I'm happy to say that Rampa, finally contacted me in late 1996. I spent four years with the first two teachers( the Hindu Swami and my late brother)--82-86. I spent close to ten years under the direction of Jesus, Himself. 86-94. In l994, He introduced me to his 'old Man'( his Father). I was strictly under the direction of the 'old Man' for three more years. Except that this old Man is not quite so old. There's still the Grandfather , and others.

One very significant thing I can tell you about the Lama Rampa, is that He introduced me to the Great Buddah. Father Buddah is not the 'little' Buddah (Siddartha Gautama) that walked this earth. The Great Buddah is much like the father of the Christians, except his immediate family are the Orientals. The odd thing about this great God is that not many in this world are aware of his existence, not even his own children. The Dalai Lama, for example, doesn't talk about Him. Whether he is aware of Him , well, he doesn't say. All he says is that they(Buddhists) don't worship a personal God. The Buddhists are more enthralled by the impersonal force. A force of God, nonetheless, but lower than the personal aspect of the Supreme One. There are many types of impersonalists in this world besides the Buddhists, including those of us that don't have personal guides but are aware of that a spirit force that prevails this world. That's where we all start, anyway.

You also wanted to know if you could somehow be in contact with those guides without having to go through all the hardships? You say you want a fast and easy way.

Well, I don't know. If you meditate on it ( what I have discussed here and what you have heard elsewhere) you may at least be heard by 'Them'. But as far as them acknowledging your prayers or meditations, you'll have to be more alert than normal to discern any signs. The spirits, all spirits, have an uncanny way of sending signs and signals. One thing they can do with ease is read your mind. So, if your thoughts are sincere and your heart humble, it can be said that yes, it is possible to have some kind of interaction, although, in the beginning it'll be somehow impersonal. The effects will be direct, though.

stranger,

and no more 'anger'

[susmariosep]

Dear Stranger:

I have been trying to work out a definition of superstition as opposed to religion.

At this moment I tend to think that they are right who tell us that one man's religion is another man's superstition. Yet I still maintain that for practical purposes of governance of people with religions, one still have to come up with a definition of superstition as opposed to religion. Because modern democratic society guarantees freedom of religion but there is no mention of freedom of superstition.

So here is my present definition of superstition, namely, a religious manifestation that results in acts contrary to the preservation of life, its enhancement, and its ennoblement. And for me religion is a human behavior founded upon a belief in an unknown power resulting in affections and actions intended by the believer to influence the power to react favorably to the believer.

I have to read about the U.S. federal supreme court, my stock knowledge here, prohibiting several concurrent wives to Mormons, even against the US constitutional guarantee of freedom of religion, I mean the reasons why. If I take the trouble to find out maybe the grounds is basically that while the US sanctions liberty of religion it does not allow its superstitious manifestation, which for the supreme court is multiple concurrent wives in the name of religion, its not being an ennoblement of women in the US democratic society.

What does all this have to do with your guides and my desire to contact them also? Your religious beliefs and observances are perfectly within the what I also accept as guarantee of religious liberty in modern democratic society; because -- and not patronizing here in any way, your religious beliefs and practices are not contrary to life's preservation, its enhancement, and its ennoblement.

So I embrace you as a brother in the quest for meaning or purpose in life and in the universe, even though I call myself a postgraduate Catholic. That 'postgraduate' is an attempt at effects, don't be annoyed by it. If anything it means negatively a lapsed Catholic and positively a liberated Catholic.

You see, after a life of religion in the Catholic Church, I do still harbor a lot of souvenirs from this faith, and human as I am I am loathe to jettison everything away in the name of atheism, agnosticism, deism, free-thought, secularism, infidelism, or what have you.

I will try to read your posts again about your guides, gods and goddess and Lobsang Rampa, to shall we say, savor your kind of religion. So far as I can see you are one person who is not inclined unlike guys like Gen. Boykin or the al-Qaeda brethren into superstitious manifestations of religion.

Thanks that you have no more anger towards me. And that I believe is what superstition is about in many instances, they make people angry owing to attachment to their religions, against other people who do not see the sense or logic of their religions.


Susma

[susmariosep]

Dear Scottl:

My reply to your last post here:

Susma,
. . .  snip . . .

2. Russell must have written the third one, but taken out of context it is difficult to see what he is talking about.  I'm too tired to attempt an explanation tonight.

. . .  snip . . . .

You are right, the third excerpt is from Ken, but for this phrase at the start: "In my dharma there are”, which I substituted for the original one from Ken: “In the Way of Seeing®,”
(http://www.thewayofs...com/seeing.html).

(Original Ken) In the Way of Seeing®, two processes happen concurrently. One is the continual weakening and dissolving of dysfunctional personality patterns . . .

(Susma’s rehash) In my dharma there are two processes happening concurrently. One is the continual weakening and dissolving of dysfunctional personality patterns . . .

(rest of excerpt from Ken) . . . through seeing or awareness. As our energy is no longer caught up in struggling with ourselves or the world, it becomes easier to contact our innate and uncorrupted true nature, variously termed Buddha-nature, Christ consciousness, the soul, the Self, and so forth. This allows the second process, the healing of our consciousness by the inner teacher and an increasing sense of direction from within. The two processes work simultaneously and assist each other. Deepening contact with our inner being provides an increasing experience of intrinsic health and joy; this makes it easier to deal with restrictive and life-dampening programming. And with the lessening of these programs, we are more in contact with our inner being, which increases our sense of ease and joy in life."

You tell me also

4. I think I briefly read part of something you wrote on Nootropi about making him post in a different area until he comes to his senses.  That is difficult in practice.

He does mean well.

I must commend you most sincerely for your goodness, considering that -- my impression -- the man has been very harsh towards you.

Back to the three excerpts, the first one is from the head of the department of English in a prestigious university, if I remember correctly; the second is a pastiched doggerel from yours truly.

Susma

[susmariosep]

To all in this forum who might find my posts at least annoying, aside from my peculiar English, I want to tell you that looking at myself honestly, I think I am more for asking questions than seeking to propound or advocate some agenda or thought system in any field of inquiry.

If I hold anything dearly it is first of all free inquiry and free civil speech, and then all the values of a constructive humanism geared towards the preservation of life, its enhancement, and its ennoblement.

Susma