57 replies to this topic

[newb1980]

So, I have been trying nootropics for the past three weeks, and from my experience all four of these supplements are useless. My experience is in contrast to others on this thread, which I suspect is likely to be a placebo effect, or simply due to the mild or even non-existent efficacy of these supplements. I post this as a warning to others, since I got most of my information from this website on these "noots," which others have said are the most efficacious legal noots. My experience has been a huge zero.

For those of you who believe that any of these supplements work, what do you say about my lack of success? I would MUCH rather have a cup of coffee, a mild workout, or a break, than any of these supplements. For the past five days, I simply tried adrafinil alone, since that seemed to have more robust clinical data.

IN SHORT, IF YOU HAVEN'T READ THE ABOVE: DON'T WASTE YOUR TIME ON THESE SUPPLEMENTS!

P.S., this has been my "stack", in addition a daily multivitamin:
- Piracetam 2g or 1/4 teaspn (up to 3x daily)
- Aniracetam 750mg or 1/4 teaspn (up to 3x daily)
- CDP Choline 500mg (2x daily)
- Adrafinil 200mg (up to 3x daily)

Edited by newb1980, 28 May 2011 - 08:42 PM.

[cathological]

I concur, in fact this website is 100% pure bullshit. Hey "longecity" if you want credibility a good start is to stop peddling pills.

Edited by cathological, 28 May 2011 - 09:12 PM.

[aaron43]

its useless if your to stupid to do it the right way

theres way more too it than what you think and since you have not took to the time to look up and research in depth of what you need to know and how to make everything work the right way your not going to get the results you wanted. Just another case of people not wanting to work for results.

Countless forums on here of people with the same damn problems and the same explanations but lets take the easy route and just call it useless

[Wurzel Bagman]

Newb1980, What did you use as a benchmark to know they are not "working"? Just your general day to day activities? I find that if I'm actively learning a lot and really using my brain I notice them more. But I've also been frustrated in the past when my noots don't work or have negative side effects like brain fog or tiredness. However, I've also had days where I can really notice a difference such a quicker wit, expanded visual field and faster learning.

What I've pretty much concluded is that there are a lot of factors that influence effectiveness like diet, exercise and sleep. I believe sleep to be the biggest factor for me. Not just the length of my sleep, not even particularly the quality of my sleep, but the TIME I go to sleep. I find that if I'm able to fall asleep by 10 pm and sleep 7-8 hours I can really notice nootropics as well as ADHD medication a lot more. I suspect this has to do with the fact that the adrenal glands do their main rejuvenation of many important chemicals between 10PM and 1AM. If they aren't working at their optimum and you're deficient some of the chemicals they produce which contribute to noot-enhanced brain states, then all those powders you consume will not do much at all.

If you can, try going to bed at 9:30PM for a week. Then introduce your stack gradually and see if you can't notice a difference. Please post back here if it works out for you.

[newb1980]

Newb1980, What did you use as a benchmark to know they are not "working"? Just your general day to day activities?...What I've pretty much concluded is that there are a lot of factors that influence effectiveness like diet, exercise and sleep....
If you can, try going to bed at 9:30PM for a week. Then introduce your stack gradually and see if you can't notice a difference. Please post back here if it works out for you.

Thanks for the input, Wurzel. I don't have any benchmark except my own subjective appraisal of my mental fatigue as well as clarity of thought. I do a lot of fairly academic work all day, as a graduate student. In the past three weeks, I have noticed no difference at all: sometimes I am tired and sometimes I am not. My impression coincides pretty much with yours: diet, exercise, and sleep matter the most. I have already been going to sleep at 11pm and sleeping at least 8 hours a day. Still nothing, however. I already eat fairly well, and workout at least three times a week.

[newb1980]

its useless if your to stupid to do it the right way

1) I AM doing it the right way. See my original post.

theres way more too it than what you think and since you have not took to the time to look up and research in depth of what you need to know and how to make everything work the right way your not going to get the results you wanted. Just another case of people not wanting to work for results.

2) I have been drawing research from this very forum.

Countless forums on here of people with the same damn problems and the same explanations but lets take the easy route and just call it useless

3) That there are numerous people with the "same damn problems" suggest that, apart from prescription drugs like Adderall and Provigil, legal noots are worthless.

[aaron43]

You are not doing it the right way, im looking at your original post right now. Just because you take aniracetam (check your spelling) and piracetam, with *choline (lots of research needed for that), you expect results. It is very effective when taken with time, when taken with the proper nutrients and supplements. Piracetam and aniracetam are clean up hitters. You take stuff like choline, acetyl-l-carnitine, fish oil among others to support what the racetams capitalize on to be effective. So if it's not effective then your lacking something. Piracetam and aniracetam are the top of the ladder when when it comes to nootropics (among other things like cerebrolysin) so if you have nothing supporting the piracetam and aniracetam then your not going to get the results you want...hence brain fog. And since you got mental fatigue from it, you thought hey, i should take adrafinil so I wont get tired. To cover up for a nutrient thats lacking, you introduced another drug to cover up the missing elements that piracetam and aniracetam capitalize on. thus knocking of your chemical balance even more out of wack to wake up, when it is the lack of proper support system that is causing the tiredness.

It is important to realize that more isn't better.

Aniracetam is a stimulant like racetam, if your feeling tired, focus more on the ani and cut the piracetam down. Not saying cut out the piracetam entirely because it IS good, it just has to be used correctly. They work good in combination. Piracetam tends to make people tired, so dont forget OG caffeine does the job just as well to wake you up.

You can supplement with choline all day long, but if you don't have an acetyl group supplement to make the excess choline that you supplement with transform into acetylcholine then you will still experience brainfog. Fish oil is a great addition to clear up brain fog.

Idebenone, a non-toxic, very safe, smaller version of the CoQ10, really helps with energy, mood, thought process (with stimulation of connections between the hemispheres of the brain like piracetam) and is a strong antioxidant. It is fat soluble so it goes great with fish oil.

Look at hydergine/ vinpocetine. Hydergine, you have to go a little out of your way for but its worth it, and really elimates mental fatigue at the same time potentiating the nootropics so you "feel" it. Vinpocetine I cant really recommend because because it subtly messes with the longterm production of dopamine levels even though it is considered safe.

There is so much more. You got the supplements that are effective when given the right conditions (nutrition, sleep, exercise ect.) Its like you bought a lexus (cant say ferrari because Id compare cerebrolysin to a ferrari) but you are putting the cheapest oil and antifreeze in it, and expect it to work like it does in the commercials.

[aaron43]

2) I have been drawing research from this very forum.

* - I meant you have to weave through the Bull****. Anyone can read. One has to compare and contrast to find out whats real.

[newb1980]

Aaron43, I forgot to mention that I take fish oil daily. I am skeptical of one of your statements in particular: "So if it's not effective then your [sic] lacking something." It could also be that it is not effective because it doesn't work! I would side with the latter, since I've been taking choline AND fish oil.

Also, Aaron43, I did NOT use adrafinil in response to piracetam or aniracetam, as you wrote in your post. I used all of those supplements (piracetam, aniracetam, CDP-choline, adrafinil) together. As a group, and adrafinil singly, they do not work. Adrafinil has some smaller studies showing some degree of efficacy in the elderly, I am convinced that it is likely a very small effect, if there is one at all.

As a favor to future readers: DON'T WASTE TIME AND MONEY ON SO-CALLED "NOOTS," EVEN THE "POPULAR" ONES LIKE THE 'TAMS AND ADRAFINIL THEY DON'T WORK. It is curious that the only solution to this problem is to buy more dubious noots. The scientific AND anecdotal evidence isn't there, particularly given the strong likelihood of placebo effects. I think it is only fair to include this warranted caveat for future hopefuls.

THE NOOTROPIC REALITY: exercise, eating right, sleeping enough, and using your mind matter. Adrafinil MIGHT work, or some other prescription stimulants, for only for short-term use. Coffee is likely your best stimulant, for legal, economic, and health reasons.

Edited by newb1980, 28 May 2011 - 11:38 PM.

[nezxon]

2) I have been drawing research from this very forum.

Forums are a generally a terrible source for research. At best, you get anecdotal reports and quotes of half-skimmed articles. There's also a lot of misinformation and rule-of-thumb wisdom that frequently ignores the latest research.

3) That there are numerous people with the "same damn problems" suggest that, apart from prescription drugs like Adderall and Provigil, legal noots are worthless.

I'm sorry that you can't find an effective dose for yourself. My suspicion is that your primary complaint is that you don't "feel" anything, and I don't believe that's a good measure of efficacy.

The nootropics you listed cause physical changes. NMDA proliferation, improved choline and acetylcholine levels, improved neurotransmitter response, and upregulating the reticular activating system. These changes may not be perceptible to you, and I suspect they're not perceptible to most people. If you want to enhance cognition, nootropics are what you're looking for. I wouldn't suggest you use nootropics, it seems like you're looking for something else, like the feeling you get from caffeine. If that's the case, stick with the caffeine.

If you're saying that you tested your neurochemical levels before and after you took those nootropics and nothing is different, that's some data I'd really love to see.

[aaron43]

LOL

- To all future readers. Nootropics are worth it. You can't expect it to work if you don't take care of the basics. Its like a pyramid, you need all the bottom blocks to make the top block (piracetam/aniracetam) as efficient and effective as possible. People who think they've been doing everything possible when in reality they had three weeks of research (probably the mainstream forums like a beginners guide) and didn't attempt to modify, add/subract to make their stack effective and see what meets their personal body best then they have no room to post that Nootropics are useless.

Its like if you had a quantum physics test. If you just read the chapter summaries and didn't take time to read the details you will not pass the test when the test comes. And once you fail the test, you claim that quantum physics must not work since it didn't coincide with your knowledge from the chapter summaries. When in reality it takes detail to understand how it works and how to make it work for you.

and the answer is not BUY MORE NOOTS!! (said in the most sarcastic way possible)...its to understand how noots work so when you take them..they work. Buying more noots will just emphasize stimulation on the same points that your other noots are stimulating, thus causing over stimulation and mental tiredness/fogginess. Don't use noots if your not gonna take the time to set yourself up correctly for them to work.

Sounds like my girlfriend when she does a hard problem on homework. She says "This is the stupidest problem, I got all the information and it still wont work!!" When in reality, she didn't learn it well enough and didn't pay attention to detail detail enough to understand the problem of difficulty..

[newb1980]

Sounds like my girlfriend when she does a hard problem on homework. She says "This is the stupidest problem, I got all the information and it still wont work!!" When in reality, she didn't learn it well enough and didn't pay attention to detail detail enough to understand the problem of difficulty..

Aaron43, it is NOT like a hard homework problem; those have workable solutions. The question re: noots is whether they work at all. All I am putting out there is a reasonable noot stack, tried over a period of time, with zero effect.

At the very least, if you have the time (and tons of money) to spend tweaking mega-stacks of vitamins and powders for dubious results, then go for it. However, the results are likely to be insignificant, or perhaps extremely small.

[newb1980]

Forums are a generally a terrible source for research.

Nezxon, I agree completely. Dear readers, don't trust these forums for reliable information.

These changes may not be perceptible to you, and I suspect they're not perceptible to most people.

I agree that any effects of noots are imperceptible, both to myself and to others (I asked my colleagues and friends). That is important for readers to know. I am not only talking about feeling, however; I am also talking about perception, motivation, memory, and, most of all, productivity, the general fruits of labor. The major question is this: if any effects, if they exist, are imperceptible, do they actually "exist" in any meaningful sense? If they don't increase motivation, don't increase sense perception, don't increase clarity of thought, don't increase memory, and don't increase productivity, then why take them?

My answer to that question is: don't bother. Stimulants work for short-term gain, but otherwise the old and hard ways work best. Using your mind and body and eating and resting right work. I think we need to temper the promises of noots with a reality that acknowledges the mainstream research showing their limited and (in many cases) non-existent efficacy.

Edited by newb1980, 29 May 2011 - 12:21 AM.

[aaron43]

First, its exactly like a problem, there is plenty of information out there, so if your not getting the results, the info is out there to find out how to fix it. You dont need money to tweak to experiment, you need brains to be congnicent of the effects they have. They are not like drugs or caffeine where you get an automatic response. Piracetam and Aniracetam prime the way for new neuronal formation, so when learning does happen, it happens much more fluidly and more "creative" thoughts are being formed. This process is due to the connections being formed when one learns something, and they see how it can work with information that the person has already learned and then use that connection to advance themselves.

The effects are real.
If there was two of you learning the same subject at the same time, with the same previous information already learned, one taking nootropics and one not, you would not see an increase in how fast you learned the subject.

The one that didn't take nootropics will learn it in the same timely manner, minimal time difference if any, but will NOT experience the same creative connected genuine thoughts formed by connections from previous learnings that the person taking nootropics will.

Basically...
If your into formulas, pre-determined ideas,and linear thinking, than nootropics will not prove useful in that aspect. Adderall would prove way more useful.
If your into a entrepreneur frame of thought, where genuine creative thoughts are what get you ahead, than nootropics are just the thing for you.


For you try this.
See what happens when you sit down in a room by yourself, with no outside stimuli.
- Take caffeine and whatever you think works, and see what kind of legitimate great ideas you can produce, ideas that would benefit yourself and put you ahead.
then...
- Take nootropics and do the same thing and see if you notice any difference in the facilitation of recalling memories and transforming them into new productive creative thoughts.

2+2=4 right.
2+2=2 wrong, a typical linear think would say thats wrong.
Nootropics provide the metaphorical square root over 2+2 that would make it equal 2. It provides outside-the-box facilitation to make a problem feasible..Thus seeming to increase intelligence, and actually increasing intelligence due to the new formation of the learned creative thoughts which can be used later down the line.

With experience comes intelligence.
With experience and nootropics comes even more intelligence.

I think we need to temper the promises of noots with a reality that acknowledges the mainstream research showing their limited and (in many cases) non-existent efficacy.

I think we need to temper the amount of people who skim over forums and don't do their own research, then take what they read in forums as fact, then when the recommended supplements don't work the way their promised from the forums they claim that its ALL Bull**** and in turn, nothing must work. Dumb man. Your providing the same misinformation that everybody else provides just in an opposite manner, they claim things work without any experience or definite knowledge, but you say its useless without any experience or definite knowledge. Its all the same problem.

If you are going to get into nootropics, understand that there is much more to it than taking a racetam with a choline source and hoping for dramatic results. You said youve been taking it for 3 weeks, thats nothing man.

[cathological]

wtf are you talking about? They'll only work if you take them when the mood is right?

[cathological]

Everyone, don't buy any of this garbage. People here are trying to scam you and make money off of you.

[aaron43]

wtf are you talking about? They'll only work if you take them when the mood is right?

I feel like you got bigger problems than nootropics.
You need to be able to read and interpret correctly before you can even begin nootropics.

I searched my whole post for anything about mood, or associated with it, and i dont know where you got that from.

Ladies and Gentlemen,
If your going to put your trust in someone who is so quick to condemn nootropics, with only the knowledge of skimming through some posts, and then can't even respond intellectually to a post, then you too should look how you are viewing these forums.

* since you dont understand it, and don't put the time to understand it, and only try it once and then dismiss it, there is no value to your statements sir.
I am 100% happy with your decision not too do nootropics, just one more person i can get ahead of

[cathological]

My interpretation of your post was it was intentionally vague and tediously long. Your post had nothing of substance. Saying the information is "out there". That anyone using these things with no results are themselves to blame and lack "brains". Claming that the effects of "creative connected genuine thoughts formed by connections from previous learnings" are "real". Is that opposed to ficticious thoughts formed by lack of conections to things never experienced and forgotten? The benifits you describe are so subtle as to be arguably non-existant. But you just keep on criticizing the graduate student op as if you're oh so much more intelligent than them.

[cathological]

quote: "2+2=4 right. 2+2=2 wrong, a typical linear think would say thats wrong. Nootropics provide the metaphorical square root over 2+2 that would make it equal 2. It provides outside-the-box facilitation to make a problem feasible..Thus seeming to increase intelligence, and actually increasing intelligence due to the new formation of the learned creative thoughts which can be used later down the line."  





This is thoroughly retarded. Why do you expect people to understand things that are illogical? Things that make no sense? 2+2=4 is correct, 2+2=2 is false, [(2+2)^(1/2)]=2 is correct. So what? Fundamentally changing a problem into a different problem to make it "feasible" is how you do math?

again

"2+2=2 wrong, a typical linear think would say thats wrong."

In fact it's just wrong and that's that. Not to mention this metaphor of yours has nothing to do with anything.

Edited by cathological, 29 May 2011 - 05:22 AM.

[cathological]

Stupid op, don't you know you need imortality rings in order to activate the nootropics in you body? http://www.alexchiu.com/

[Ark]

So, I have been trying nootropics for the past three weeks, and from my experience all four of these supplements are useless. My experience is in contrast to others on this thread, which I suspect is likely to be a placebo effect, or simply due to the mild or even non-existent efficacy of these supplements. I post this as a warning to others, since I got most of my information from this website on these "noots," which others have said are the most efficacious legal noots. My experience has been a huge zero.

For those of you who believe that any of these supplements work, what do you say about my lack of success? I would MUCH rather have a cup of coffee, a mild workout, or a break, than any of these supplements. For the past five days, I simply tried adrafinil alone, since that seemed to have more robust clinical data.

IN SHORT, IF YOU HAVEN'T READ THE ABOVE: DON'T WASTE YOUR TIME ON THESE SUPPLEMENTS!

P.S., this has been my "stack", in addition a daily multivitamin:
- Piracetam 2g or 1/4 teaspn (up to 3x daily)
- Aniracetam 750mg or 1/4 teaspn (up to 3x daily)
- CDP Choline 500mg (2x daily)


- Adrafinil 200mg (up to 3x daily)

Those sup's aren't going to cure retard syndrom.


Seriously though, your not going to feel your IQ go up, its not like getting High. Maybe try different Nootropics if up is your thing Provigil / Bacopa combo is popular.

Edited by Ark, 29 May 2011 - 08:19 AM.

[Gecko]

Forums are a generally a terrible source for research.

Nezxon, I agree completely. Dear readers, don't trust these forums for reliable information.

These changes may not be perceptible to you, and I suspect they're not perceptible to most people.

I agree that any effects of noots are imperceptible, both to myself and to others (I asked my colleagues and friends). That is important for readers to know. I am not only talking about feeling, however; I am also talking about perception, motivation, memory, and, most of all, productivity, the general fruits of labor. The major question is this: if any effects, if they exist, are imperceptible, do they actually "exist" in any meaningful sense? If they don't increase motivation, don't increase sense perception, don't increase clarity of thought, don't increase memory, and don't increase productivity, then why take them?

My answer to that question is: don't bother. Stimulants work for short-term gain, but otherwise the old and hard ways work best. Using your mind and body and eating and resting right work. I think we need to temper the promises of noots with a reality that acknowledges the mainstream research showing their limited and (in many cases) non-existent efficacy.

Not attacking anyone here as everyone's welcome to their own opinion, but this is some seriously flawed logic. You're basing your analysis entirely on subjective experience and 'feeling' and just because you cannot perceive a change doesn't in any way mean it's not occurring.You jump straight from presuming that not feeling an increase in memory etc. means that there isn't one. However, our subjective experience is notoriously prone to inaccuracy. One doesn't 'feel' neurogenesis in the short-term but that doesn't mean it isn't happening, just as one doesn't 'feel' impaired by alcohol after a few drinks, despite the fact that objective testing will show a real and quantifiable impairment in certain types of performance.

[Ichoose2live]

Those sup's aren't going to cure retard syndrom.

hahahah nice one!

To OP. The Racetam are capricious as cognitive enhancers. If you are lacking a physiological need they aren't going to be effective, that's the first step to Nootropics. You aren't obliged to believe anybody, but it's you who won't get profile of the nootropics.

[newb1980]

Stupid op, don't you know you need imortality rings in order to activate the nootropics in you body? http://www.alexchiu.com/

Thanks, cathological for your counter voice on this forum. I don't want to start a hate war, on this website, but I think it is important to include a concise "lower bound" estimate of these "nootropics" for anyone else gleaning information here. From the average response, one could get the mistaken impression that these drugs do anything.

Obviously people will say I haven't done something right. But as it stands, people can look at what I've done, and I think it seems pretty reasonable, for a reasonable amount of time. My experience on these drugs have been disappointing to say the least. Let it be a warning to people who think that any reasonable "stack" such as this one could be expected to result in perceptible changes. Based on my experiences, they won't.

EDIT: I should add that we don't know the long-term health consequences of these supplements, especially in conjunction. That, in addition to the underwhelming "effects" of these drugs, have led me to conclude that my time and engery is better spent on cognitive enhancing activities and a healthy diet (as the other threads point out).

Edited by newb1980, 29 May 2011 - 03:39 PM.

[newb1980]

Not attacking anyone here as everyone's welcome to their own opinion, but this is some seriously flawed logic. You're basing your analysis entirely on subjective experience and 'feeling' and just because you cannot perceive a change doesn't in any way mean it's not occurring.You jump straight from presuming that not feeling an increase in memory etc. means that there isn't one. However, our subjective experience is notoriously prone to inaccuracy. One doesn't 'feel' neurogenesis in the short-term but that doesn't mean it isn't happening, just as one doesn't 'feel' impaired by alcohol after a few drinks, despite the fact that objective testing will show a real and quantifiable impairment in certain types of performance.

I definitely feel impaired by alcohol, Gecko.

[The Human Meteorite]

Newb1980 is correct. Nootropics are a lie created by this forum to sell sugar pills to dumb students. Of course, the same goes for amphetamine, except only "big pharma" sells it. Same goes for methamphetamine, doesn't do shit, but people sell it to dumb rednecks saying it will make them happy to get money. Works rather well actually, nobody even realizes in the years of research and experimentation with all of these compounds that they do not actually do anything, except me and newb1980 of course, right?

[bdoris]

Aaron43, it is NOT like a hard homework problem; those have workable solutions. The question re: noots is whether they work at all. All I am putting out there is a reasonable noot stack, tried over a period of time, with zero effect.

At the very least, if you have the time (and tons of money) to spend tweaking mega-stacks of vitamins and powders for dubious results, then go for it. However, the results are likely to be insignificant, or perhaps extremely small.

Today, while going in the country I had this sudden urge to urinate, and I urinated on a fence. I FELT NOTHING - ELECTRIC FENCES DON'T WORK! YOU CAN PEE ALL YOU LIKE!

Same reasoning as your original post. I dare you to try urinating a continuous stream of pretty yellow water on a shiny electric fence.

You cannot make generalities based only on yourself - at most, you can say that those nootropics didn't work for you and that you doubt their efficacy and wonder if everyone else is feeling something akin to a placebo effect. Making such bold statements based on nothing but your impressions makes me doubt you being a graduate student.

I'm not saying you are wrong about yourself - it is entirely possible that your body doesn't process -racetams correctly and therefore they may not have any effect. It is possible the product itself is from a faulty batch, it is possible that you are an anti-nootropic troll; if you want to make a bold statement, you have to carefully examine all the possibilities and make hypothesis as to explain the lack of effects or the lack of perception of effects.

For all that matters, you may be the only rightful member of this board and we - everyone else - are troll recruited by pharmaceutical companies to promote nootropics.

EDIT: I should add that we don't know the long-term health consequences of these supplements, especially in conjunction. That, in addition to the underwhelming "effects" of these drugs, have led me to conclude that my time and engery is better spent on cognitive enhancing activities and a healthy diet (as the other threads point out).

We don't know? I guess government should stop giving budget to R&D because obviously all the models and theories we have elaborated in countless fields are complete junk - they cannot even let us predict with a certain degree of accuracy anything at all. Those studies are probably made up just because those researchers are money-hungry pigs. Neurotransmitters, dopamine, oxidations and reductions, that's all useless gibberish - let's do actually useful things like improving our society by building new churches, mosques and other religious buildings.

I mean, if science can't give us answers with any degree of accuracy, then we'll have to look somewhere else, right?

Edited by bdoris, 29 May 2011 - 04:42 PM.

[Ichoose2live]

Thanks, cathological for your counter voice on this forum. I don't want to start a hate war, on this website, but I think it is important to include a concise "lower bound" estimate of these "nootropics" for anyone else gleaning information here. From the average response, one could get the mistaken impression that these drugs do anything.

Obviously people will say I haven't done something right. But as it stands, people can look at what I've done, and I think it seems pretty reasonable, for a reasonable amount of time. My experience on these drugs have been disappointing to say the least. Let it be a warning to people who think that any reasonable "stack" such as this one could be expected to result in perceptible changes. They won't.

It's true if we compare them to other drugs like Adderall, Modafinil, Caffeine and Methylphenidate cause those drugs are having direct, consistent and evident effect and therefore the health risk is higher. They can be called "True cognitive enhancer". Unfortunately we should state a list of things to do and not to do when consuming Racetams. Avoiding alcohol and getting a restful sleep should be the main rules. Then, I would say diet, exercise and awareness. Awareness because you cannot feel anything from taking the Racetams so you have to be aware of your work productivity, mood and focus level. I have a real great example of what happens when you give Piracetam to a stupid person.
A few months ago, I gave one gram of Piracetam to my mother. Normally she is lazy, unmotivated and whiner. That day, she decided to clean the house. After only a few seconds, she began to make really unnecessary and annoying low whine and sigh. So I decided to give her a gram of Piracetam. After fifty minutes, I noticed she was very focused and were no longer whining. Next of the cleanup she began to paint, one of her activities she rarely practiced. I asked her if she noticed a difference and she said no. By late afternoon I asked her if she noticed something and she said that she felt as if she wanted to fight with everybody. Obviously this was only the effect of Piracetam on mood elevation. She further said that she would no longer try it again. I concluded that she did not have the level of awareness developed sufficiently to notice the effects of Piracetam.

Unfortunately she will never change, but me, I choose to live! Nootropics have changed my life and my mind. Nootropic have won the battle against my genetic and my worthless hereditary.

Edited by Ichoose2live, 29 May 2011 - 04:58 PM.

[dupez]

For the non-believers, you are either not using it right or it simply does not work for you. I use it as any other supplement - with a balanced diet and lifestyle. Maybe you need to think about your goals - why do you want to take this drug? Are you actually making an effort and continually challenging your brain? If not, its like taking protein/creatine without weightlifting.. pretty pointless.

[nezxon]

if any effects, if they exist, are imperceptible, do they actually "exist" in any meaningful sense?

You can't perceive most of the biological processes in your body, to deny they're occurring would be misguided.

If they don't increase motivation, don't increase sense perception, don't increase clarity of thought, don't increase memory, and don't increase productivity, then why take them?

You're assuming they don't improve those functions because you don't feel it. Why is your top priority to feel it? If you sustain injury, isn't it enough for your body to heal itself, do you need to feel the wound closing?

Giurgea defined 5 characteristics of nootropics, having a perceptible effect or making you feel better is not one of those characteristics. Nootropics are "Smart Drugs" not "Feel Good Drugs". I suggest reading Giurgea's definition strictly and using that to adjust your expectations.

I don't have any benchmark except my own subjective appraisal of my mental fatigue as well as clarity of thought.

You seem to look at this as a challenge to your ego, like noticing the effects is a test of your metacognitive ability. It is not. The body doesn't require us to feel biochemical changes in order to benefit from enhancements.

Maybe athletics is a more easily relatable subject. You can't run laps and guess how fast you think you ran. If you didn't time your laps, any discussion about how fast you "felt" like you ran has no meaning. It's quite common to feel like you ran faster than ever only to find out it's your worst time. This is why a subjective appraisal of your ability is no measure at all.

In the past three weeks, I have noticed no difference at all: sometimes I am tired and sometimes I am not.

One of your goals was to no longer feel tired? That's not realistic.

From reading your posts, here's what I've concluded: You don't seem to have any real questions or interest in cognitive enhancement. Your primary concern seems to be in convincing people not to use them. You've stated that you don't think anything can work if you don't need a prescription for it, can't perceive it, and that nutrition and exercise are all that's important. You seem to have a very puritanical stance towards supplementation. Why does this forum interest you?

Nutrition and exercise are important of course, but to recommend them instead of supplements is a very naive position. Medical experts and health professionals are now realizing that supplementation is an important part of maintaining good health. Preventative care is recognized as an important companion to curative care. We don't get a second chance to prevent cognitive decline. When time, environmental, and behavioral factors break down the function of the brain, we won't have the opportunity to go back in time and retroactively take preventative measures. People with proper nutrition and exercise still suffer from cognitive deficits. If my chance of Alzheimers is 1 in 10,000 and there are tested neuroprotectants that can lower that risk to 1 in 15,000, why wouldn't I take them?

I should add that we don't know the long-term health consequences of these supplements.

There is much indication that the side effect profiles of these supplements are fairly small and mild. It seems extremely likely that nootropics' function as neuroprotectants and antioxidants outweigh the apparently as-yet uncovered health consequences you perceive looming in the distance. We have studies going back almost 50 years which show non-toxicity and not only a lack of long-term health consequences, but the exact opposite, long-term health benefits. Do you believe 50 years of research isn't enough of a foundation to begin safely using nootropics?