81 replies to this topic

[Logan]

Nito, they might have used ECT on your friend, something I am not too crazy about.

I'm currently combining sertraline(zoloft) at 100 mg with escitalopram(lexapro) at 5 mg. My reasoning for this is the opposing action on the sigma 1 receptor-sertraline is a sigma 1 antagonist, whereas escitalopram is an agonist at the receptor. There is pretty strong evidence that antagonism of the sigma 1 receptor causes things like lessened inhibition, heightened impulsivity, and increased energy. Due to the fact that I am innately a fairly wild, unhinibited, spontaneous, and impulsive person, I wanted to try to attenuate the sigma 1 antagonism by sertraline using the escitalopram(I had been on for 5 months at 10 mg), and still reap the other benefits of both drugs. So far so good. As I am starting to feel better and better on sertraline, I'm considering going down to 2.5 mg escitalopram and stay there for a while. I may do this in a few weeks.

[aaron43]

Arron, dude, I have no idea why you even care about this subject.

Why do I care? Because this a nootropic/biochemistry forum. Not really a forum for judgments and anecdotal convincing. Its my right to question, not the reason for people taking it, but the product itself for progressive purposes. That, though these pharmaceuticals may make the person feel better, I feel that they are counter productive in how they treat depression. As in curing oneself from depression. They make the person feel better for the time being, but does not correct the issue.
Not being argumentative, not attacking, just trying to provoke points to generate progressive discussion. But like I was saying, to me it seems that SSRI's mask the symptoms very well, but I feel our current techniques in how we implement SSRI's and what we expect the results to be from just taking it are far-overlooking the aspects that lead to overcoming depression (motivation, happiness, sadness, learning, progress, self-worth, outward thinking ect,). My point is, that we hand people SSRI's, and in our current system people expect to instantly be better, but when the script runs out, their first thought is how should I get more. SSRI's can be helpful, but may actually be effective as a treatment and cure when used with Cognitive Behavioral training, and a consistent desire to change. I don't know how one can prescribe that. But since you can't, I feel that one must focus on the aspects such as motivation, learning, ect just as much as increasing serotonin to get out of a rut.

You still don't get it. It's not about simply getting out of a rut for many people, it's about a constant life long struggle.

I agree that SSRIs are not the solution, but I don't think you fully understand what is going on with sufferers of mental illness. It's likely half internal psychological conflict and half biological. So how are you going to fix the biological? And how long do you expect people to suffer before they figure it all out? Reality check bro-life is short, and there isn't much time to waste feeling like you're the walking dead.

There is evidence that environmental factors alter the development of how certain systems in the brain function. How are you going to magically rewire these systems? Is it going to take ten years? Twenty years? Maybe never dude. Some things cannot be fully repaired. I believe very strongly in the value of psychodynamic therapy, CBT, and psychodynamic group therapy. I believe in the ability to heal from past wounds and am so passionate about it, I have concered pursuing a career as a therapist. But I do not believe it is possibly for many people that have genetic predispositions and far from ideal upbringings, to completely heal and function at a high level without some type of assistance from medication.

I also agree that SSRIs are unfortunately prescribed too often.

Yes, this is a nootropics forum. So??? SSRIs have brought my brain and many others' back from the dead, back to fairly high function. I could focus better, memorize things better, and read better when doing well on SSRIs. Like I said before, SSRIs are far from perfect, and some may have pretty awful experiences with them, but considering that we've only been doing the psychiatry thing for about 50 years or so, SSRIs are pretty amazing drugs IMO.

See, I understand what your saying, but like we were saying earlier, that bodily medicine should be treated the same as cognitive medicine with the warning that you should understand the programming of the brain before hand. Im thinking of it like this:

Bodily injury triggered from environmental factors is then treated by medicine, and then heals, and then you resume life.
If they are the same then..
Cognitive problems (such as depression) that are triggered by environmental factors should be treated by medicine, and then heals, and then you resume life.
I find it hard to believe that an environmentally triggered problems require long-term medication. If you get a virus, the main goal of the medication is to kill the virus, and fix the problem. If you have an environmentally triggered skin alement, you get treatment to fix it, so as to resume life without the alement. It seems with depression, that we consistently give medication to mask the symptoms and make life enjoyable instead of fixing the problem, as to resume life at the baseline level you were born with.
Not attacking, not anything, just asking why if we treat bodily and cognitive medicine the same, then why do we treat depression differently, as in long term use instead of directly fixing the problem?

[niner]

I find it hard to believe that an environmentally triggered problems require long-term medication. If you get a virus, the main goal of the medication is to kill the virus, and fix the problem. If you have an environmentally triggered skin alement, you get treatment to fix it, so as to resume life without the alement. It seems with depression, that we consistently give medication to mask the symptoms and make life enjoyable instead of fixing the problem, as to resume life at the baseline level you were born with.
Not attacking, not anything, just asking why if we treat bodily and cognitive medicine the same, then why do we treat depression differently, as in long term use instead of directly fixing the problem?

Aaron, everyone knows that SSRIs alone are not optimal. They work better with therapy. But therapy is hard, and expensive, and takes forever. Sometimes it just doesn't work. Pills are easy and relatively cheap, and are covered by insurance. I think it's as simple as that. There are lots of diseases that are environmentally triggered which may require a lifetime of medication. Type II diabetes, Lyme disease, etc. Most cases of persistent depression are not purely environmental, but involve genetic predisposition.

[Logan]

I like what niner said. Sometimes things are not repaired as easily or as quickily as you may think with natural treatments. Like I said before, when things happen during development, whether it's an environmental toxin, lack of nurture, or emotion toxin, the effects are likely long lasting and usually cannot be fully repaired. Your on a life extension site, you should know our repair mechanisms are flawed.

Edited by MorganM, 17 July 2011 - 02:34 AM.

[Logan]

Arron, check out mindandmuscle.net. There are some threads over there showing studies that provide evidence of things SSRIs do other than enhancing serotonin. There is evidence that SSRIs like sertraline may help to restore HPA axis function, something that can be wrecked by chronic depression, stress, and anxiety.

[aaron43]

I find it hard to believe that an environmentally triggered problems require long-term medication. If you get a virus, the main goal of the medication is to kill the virus, and fix the problem. If you have an environmentally triggered skin alement, you get treatment to fix it, so as to resume life without the alement. It seems with depression, that we consistently give medication to mask the symptoms and make life enjoyable instead of fixing the problem, as to resume life at the baseline level you were born with.
Not attacking, not anything, just asking why if we treat bodily and cognitive medicine the same, then why do we treat depression differently, as in long term use instead of directly fixing the problem?

Aaron, everyone knows that SSRIs alone are not optimal. They work better with therapy. But therapy is hard, and expensive, and takes forever. Sometimes it just doesn't work. Pills are easy and relatively cheap, and are covered by insurance. I think it's as simple as that. There are lots of diseases that are environmentally triggered which may require a lifetime of medication. Type II diabetes, Lyme disease, etc. Most cases of persistent depression are not purely environmental, but involve genetic predisposition.

I like what niner said. Sometimes things are not repaired as easily or as quickily as you may think with natural treatments. Like I said before, when things happen during development, whether it's an environmental toxin, lack of nurture, or emotion toxin, the effects are likely long lasting and usually cannot be fully repaired. Your on a life extension site, you should know our repair mechanisms are flawed.

Arron, check out mindandmuscle.net. There are some threads over there showing studies that provide evidence of things SSRIs do other than enhancing serotonin. There is evidence that SSRIs like sertraline may help to restore HPA axis function, something that can be wrecked by chronic depression, stress, and anxiety.

I rest my case, well said

About the CBT, I think there should be more facilitation to the main stream public on exercises/ train's of thought that are free and simple, I feel like there should be more developments in that area of behavioral training and there should be promotions of this information, as it can help many who may be unaware of the unknown aspect that Cognitibe Behavioral Training is just as effective at treating depression as SSRI's, and could possibly cure it.

[Logan]

I rest my case, well said

About the CBT, I think there should be more facilitation to the main stream public on exercises/ train's of thought that are free and simple, I feel like there should be more developments in that area of behavioral training and there should be promotions of this information, as it can help many who may be unaware of the unknown aspect that Cognitibe Behavioral Training is just as effective at treating depression as SSRI's, and could possibly cure it.

I'm not sure if any case of yours was rested here. CBT is not as effective for depression for many cases. How about psychodynamic therapy? Know anything about this? I do. I don't see how CBT could be any kind of permanent cure for depression for certain subtypes. The only type of therapies that I can see offering any kind of permanent solution to depressives that are mainly rooted in childhood and adolescent evironmental factors-neglect, criticism, trauma-are psychodynamic individual and group therapy. One problem with these therapies, as niner mentioned, is they require devotion and hard work, and they can take years before intrusive inner conflicts/emotinos are resolved

.

[aaron43]

I rest my case, well said

About the CBT, I think there should be more facilitation to the main stream public on exercises/ train's of thought that are free and simple, I feel like there should be more developments in that area of behavioral training and there should be promotions of this information, as it can help many who may be unaware of the unknown aspect that Cognitibe Behavioral Training is just as effective at treating depression as SSRI's, and could possibly cure it.

I'm not sure if any case of yours was rested here. CBT is not as effective for depression for many cases. How about psychodynamic therapy? Know anything about this? I do. I don't see how CBT could be any kind of permanent cure for depression for certain subtypes. The only type of therapies that I can see offering any kind of permanent solution to depressives that are mainly rooted in childhood and adolescent evironmental factors-neglect, criticism, trauma-are psychodynamic individual and group therapy. One problem with these therapies, as niner mentioned, is they require devotion and hard work, and they can take years before intrusive inner conflicts/emotinos are resolved

.

I forgot you have your PHD in antidepressants.
We must take head from you examples, and if an environmental factor triggers depression we should rely on SSRI's for 7+ years.
Are you kidding me?

What has it been called since the beginning of time? when there was no SSRI's, when people had nearly nothing, I can guarantee people had depressive symptoms, and I can guarantee these depressive symptoms were ingrained as a life challenge/lesson to grow from, the same challenges that everyone faces and that fables develop from. But how did they do it? What was it called?
Its called facing and over coming your inner demons.

SSRI's are good for getting you back on your feet, Behavioral Training/Training Your Brain to Think Rationally and Logically to dismiss any fallacies that may incur in the brain is the effective treatment for overcoming the issues that the SSRI's got you back on your feet enough to accomplish.

What constitutes environmental triggers? Sure a debilitating virus or some heavy metal poisoning is grounds for proper medication use, but the chances that this is actually the case is slim compared to the rest of the population who claims depressive symptoms. What would constitute an environmental trigger that the majority of the population identifies with? Stress? Life not going their way? Childhood? Yes, but you are not inherently born with the "disease."

Then the majority of the depressive population is going to look up on how to get out of this train of thought. Go ahead, look it up, see whats #1 recommended, the first things are SSRIs. And the thing is, that it actually works, and actually can get someone out of the depressive train of thought.

But what happens when the script runs out? The person has not reinforced themselves with any fundamental beneficial train of thoughts to rely on. There isn't a foundation to rely on/look back to for reference when there is a present situation that could induce stress/sadness/happiness/whatever you can think any situation can evoke. So what happens after another situation presents itself, and there is no foundation to rely on? The person reverts, again thinking there is something inherently wrong with themselves, and then goes on to seek out another script. Leading to something like a 7 year span such as yourself.

If you have the luxury of being able to have group discussion and whatnot, the answers are definitely all there and included, and it must show something negative about your learning abilities to not be able to apply what you are learning (hence learning is key for overcoming depression). There is great information that you can learn from that is on par with these group discussion that is available on the internet for free, but does take a little searching.

Facing inner demons (which is metaphoric for choosing against your instinctive thoughts in favor of ones that will benefit you in the long run) is not easy, it may take weeks/months as your urge to revert to instinctive thoughts will diminish over time and a retraining of the brain will incur and will be available for use; but again this takes practice, an actual desire to get better, a desire to not mask symptoms forever with drugs, there will be tough times, but the more your foundation grows the easier it becomes over time to rely on your newly developed foundation instinctively.

I feel that you are providing misinformation by personally testifying to 7+ years of SSRI use, claiming CBT doesn't work, promoting a heavy reliance on SSRI's, when I'd say approx 80-90% of the time people looking for depressive help just need their train of thought corrected.

Edited by aaron43, 17 July 2011 - 07:25 PM.

[Logan]

You ramble well my friend. One day you will realize that things are far more complex than what you now understand. Good luck on that journey.

Saying we are not born with disease is about the least intelligent thing you've said. People are often born with diseases/illnesses, this is a fact. I'm out of this thread for good, this back and forth is pointless. Continue rambling at your own risk.

Edited by MorganM, 18 July 2011 - 02:25 AM.

[aaron43]

Saying we are not born with disease is about the least intelligent thing you've said. People are often born with diseases/illnesses, this is a fact.

I'm not attacking any group of people, don't get me wrong here. Yes people are often born with diseases, but I wouldn't go as far to say that the majority of depressant claims are caused from a disease/illness, like I said yes, if you are born with a chemical insufficiency then by all means correct it. Yet, I would still feel that a majority of people anecdotally self-diagnose themselves as chemically imbalanced, where a doctor is quick to prescribe any type of SSRI's. Thus eliminating any desire for further in-depth exploration as to what type of thought process is making one feel a certain way, and how to over come this. Instead, relieving any stress that may incur from the questioning of one's ownself that may be caused, into some sort of medication. Again, Im speaking to the majority of depressant cases, there are people who are born with chemical imbalances which I would have no case against. As for environmental factors triggering depressive cases, I feel this may be blown up, as the human body is a resilient specimen. I feel that a majority of depressive cases occur when an environmental factor makes one question a thought about themselves that they have gained through childhood but have no logical reasoning to back it up. Thus leaving a question consistently on the mind, which branches off to more questioning, while still completely missing the fact that one has to have logical reasoning to back up any claim about oneself, and to make one logically feel good about themselves, you simply have to develop your own self worth. This I feel is done through learning, and learning what is unique to the person's interest.

What I have said will make no difference though, this because of the fact that SSRI's do work, and are successful at "temporarily" fixing the problem, but, it does not cure it.

Edited by aaron43, 18 July 2011 - 08:56 AM.

[niner]

... I wouldn't go as far to say that the majority of depressant claims are caused from a disease/illness, like I said yes, if you are born with a chemical insufficiency then by all means correct it. Yet, I would still feel that a majority of people anecdotally self-diagnose themselves as chemically imbalanced, where a doctor is quick to prescribe any type of SSRI's. Thus eliminating any desire for further in-depth exploration as to what type of thought process is making one feel a certain way, and how to over come this. Instead, relieving any stress that may incur from the questioning of one's ownself that may be caused, into some sort of medication. Again, Im speaking to the majority of depressant cases, there are people who are born with chemical imbalances which I would have no case against. As for environmental factors triggering depressive cases, I feel this may be blown up, as the human body is a resilient specimen. I feel that a majority of depressive cases occur when an environmental factor makes one question a thought about themselves that they have gained through childhood but have no logical reasoning to back it up. Thus leaving a question consistently on the mind, which branches off to more questioning, while still completely missing the fact that one has to have logical reasoning to back up any claim about oneself, and to make one logically feel good about themselves, you simply have to develop your own self worth. This I feel is done through learning, and learning what is unique to the person's interest.

What is the source of your anti-psychiatry opinions? Are you knowledgeable in the field? Are these opinions based on a bad experience with psychiatry, either for you or someone close to you? Have you observed a large sample of depressed people? Are you a Scientologist?

[aaron43]

... I wouldn't go as far to say that the majority of depressant claims are caused from a disease/illness, like I said yes, if you are born with a chemical insufficiency then by all means correct it. Yet, I would still feel that a majority of people anecdotally self-diagnose themselves as chemically imbalanced, where a doctor is quick to prescribe any type of SSRI's. Thus eliminating any desire for further in-depth exploration as to what type of thought process is making one feel a certain way, and how to over come this. Instead, relieving any stress that may incur from the questioning of one's ownself that may be caused, into some sort of medication. Again, Im speaking to the majority of depressant cases, there are people who are born with chemical imbalances which I would have no case against. As for environmental factors triggering depressive cases, I feel this may be blown up, as the human body is a resilient specimen. I feel that a majority of depressive cases occur when an environmental factor makes one question a thought about themselves that they have gained through childhood but have no logical reasoning to back it up. Thus leaving a question consistently on the mind, which branches off to more questioning, while still completely missing the fact that one has to have logical reasoning to back up any claim about oneself, and to make one logically feel good about themselves, you simply have to develop your own self worth. This I feel is done through learning, and learning what is unique to the person's interest.

What is the source of your anti-psychiatry opinions? Are you knowledgeable in the field? Are these opinions based on a bad experience with psychiatry, either for you or someone close to you? Have you observed a large sample of depressed people? Are you a Scientologist?

You are right, these are all opinions, I have never visited a psychiatry (never really could afford it, but have nothing against it), never observed depressed people in a academic style setting, and I am not a Scientologist. All my learnings are from personal experiences, or conversations with people about the subject.

I have personally always felt depressed or some sort of depression, throughout my life. I have felt for years that something must be inherently wrong with me. I started divulging into drugs, as a sort of escapism. But what I thought was escapism, was just a yurning for me to see the world from a different perspective. A new perspective where I would see the world for what it was, instead of seeing it tied together with all my personal detrimental thoughts. I've done, Weed, coke, acid, shrooms, codeine, dxm, and benzos, but never anything like meth, and never on a continuous basis.

One day I realized that I desired the thought process of what it's like when I'm on benzodiazepenes, but when I was sober. I would take the benzo, then take detailed notes on how I felt under the influence of them; and then would see how I could logically explain to myself why I felt the way I while I felt on benzos (and when I would see the benzos work in a situation where something like anxiety would normally kick in, I would take note of what thought process made me ignore my anxiety fears), as well as making it detailed enough so I can understand and believe the same logic when completely sober. In a sense, trying to rewire my brain naturally as to match the thought processes that helped me dismiss so many of my personal issues while benzos. I feel drugs/medications are very helpful in the sense that they refresh our perception, and it seems if done correctly, drugs actually do the opposite of just getting high, they can bring one down to earth.
Freeing oneself from the twisting thoughts that an overactive sober brain could induce.

This goes the same with happiness, when doing a drug that "makes you happy", I would try to logically prove why do I feel so happy, and why I would be held back normally from this happiness and how could I get this effect without taking any pills. I logically broke it down to its most basic concepts, and it still, to me, all seems to boil down to one's thought processes. The best I could describe it is, how to logically induce that feeling of "everything is good" that so many people get on drugs, but while sober. Through repetition, and a strong desire to change and still more continuous repetition on applying the new found thoughts while sober (facing one's demons = choosing against your instinctive thoughts in favor of ones that will benefit you in the long run), along with learning and following personal desires/intrigue, one will build up their newly formed foundation of personal ideas/ideals and have something to identify with which gives one the sense of "belonging", which in turn, leads to sprouting of new found happiness. And the best part is there isn't a chance for it to be ineffective, because when a situation comes up that could cause some negative emotion, one can Logically prove themselves out of it.

If anyone has any comments, or finds any hole in my theory, feel free to comment in honor of the expansion of knowledge. And I do feel that group psychiatry is effective, but I as well feel that it is a bunch of recycled information fine-tuned to meet the individual needs; but in reality who knows you better than yourself.

Learning is the most important thing in life, not just academic learning, but moral/life lesson learning as well. A sedentary brain, is a self-destructive brain.

Edited by aaron43, 18 July 2011 - 07:46 PM.

[Logan]

Arron, most psychiatrists and psychologists believe in the biopsychsocial model as an explanation for the development of mental illness. I don't believe there is hardly ever a chronic case of depression, anxiety, or other mental illness that was not caused by a combination of biological predispositions and environmental factors(emotional or chemical) during development. If autism spectrum disorders are consider a form of mental illness, which I believe they are, many cases would be the exception to this rule.

[aaron43]

Arron, most psychiatrists and psychologists believe in the biopsychsocial model as an explanation for the development of mental illness. I don't believe there is hardly ever a chronic case of depression, anxiety, or other mental illness that was not caused by a combination of biological predispositions and environmental factors(emotional or chemical) during development. If autism spectrum disorders are consider a form of mental illness, which I believe they are, many cases would be the exception to this rule.

You said chronic depression/anxiety, I would not hesitate to recommend an SSRI for temporary relief to allow one to get back on their feet.
This type of anecdotal self-proclaimed genetic predisposition to depression leads one to believe in helplessness and that depression is out of the user's hand.
What kind of chemical factors would permanently make someone depressed?
Are you arguing for human helplessness against depression?

I find it hard to believe that if your "normal" as a child, you could become permanently chemically depressed. I feel that the only possible way, is a learned depression, where the chemicals are matching the situation that is in one's current life. This can last a long time/and seem permanent if one never divulges intensively into changing their own thought process.

I think we are referring to two separate ends of the depression spectrum, I am referring to the majority of the depressant claims where the person claims an anecdotal genetic predisposition to depression, when in reality, it is just a long stretch of life with a flawed thought process. I think you are referring to cases where there is actual chemical poisonings that have a side effect of destroying a part of any functional processes that induces happiness/motivation/you name it. Or you are referring to an actual genetic predisposition in which it would make sense for that person to be depressed their whole life, and I feel that would be through childhood as well, since any other genetic predispositions are present at birth (except I believe obesity/alzheimers/dementia which are fundamentally different in the control one has over it). These aspects are just as real as a sort of "placebo" type of depression that people claim from annecdotal claims of genetic predisposition to depression, which in reality, again, is a flawed thought process.

[Logan]

Jesus Arron please dude..These things have been studied, and while we don't have all the answers, we do have a pretty good idea of what might be going on. You're exhausting. Sorry man.

Do you understand anything about what goes on during development and the lasting effects that can be hardwired into the psyche/brain? Do you understand how a child's development can be permanently altered by parents, especially the mother, not giving them what they need?

You just sound very young and naive to me. I don't know why I waste my time on this thread with you. You say things like "I feel" and don't appear to have any valuable experience or knowledge of research. A genetic predisposition of any kind can come out of know where and start to affect someone. Suppressed sadness resulting from childhood experience can come out of nowhere and affect someone. We have built in mechanisms to deal with things and protect ourselves. When our defenses are down due to things like stress and/or malnourishment, the disease or emotional conflicts inside us are triggered and able to take over. One of these mechanism used to suppress emotional conflicts and protect ourselves is denial. While we are young we usually don't have to deal witth the kinds of realities we have to deal with in adulthood, we are less likely to be affected by what might be lingering inside.

[aaron43]

Jesus Arron please dude..These things have been studied, and while we don't have all the answers, we do have a pretty good idea of what might be going on. You're exhausting. Sorry man.

Do you understand anything about what goes on during development and the lasting effects that can be hardwired into the psyche/brain? Do you understand how a child's development can be permanently altered by parents, especially the mother, not giving them what they need?

You just sound very young and naive to me. I don't know why I waste my time on this thread with you. You say things like "I feel" and don't appear to have any valuable experience or knowledge of research. A genetic predisposition of any kind can come out of know where and start to affect someone. Suppressed sadness resulting from childhood experience can come out of nowhere and affect someone. We have built in mechanisms to deal with things and protect ourselves. When our defenses are down due to things like stress and/or malnourishment, the disease or emotional conflicts inside us are triggered and able to take over. One of these mechanism used to suppress emotional conflicts and protect ourselves is denial. While we are young we usually don't have to deal witth the kinds of realities we have to deal with in adulthood, we are less likely to be affected by what might be lingering inside.

So your telling me: If someone in a free-of-external influences environment, example: a remotely populated Brazilian village (there could be many villages across brazil so this could apply to a large scale hypothetical example), If one non pre-genetically disposed child (in a group of many) had a very stress-inducing mother, and then the child fought for his/her right for independentness at some point in life, worked hard to fix whatever would be causing distress, it could very well be the parent, but building a family connection fundamentally is building self-worth. But the mother to daughter connection in this example, fails. This woman, though, would not let thoughts stop her from initiating contact with other, and not ONE single thought stopped her from following her interests and progressively improving in her personal field of interest. That sometime in her life she will experience a wave of depression, no matter what she has done for herself, and that the only treatment for her to ever be considered non-depressed during what should be a depression period is an SSRI? This woman would know nothing about science, research, or the medical term depression, that at some point during her new progressing developments in her personal field of interest (self-worth building), that at some point, she will still be faced helpless against this wave of depression?

Depression runs in my family, and I have no idea if I'm pre-genetically disposed, but I do know that this logic is a big boost of motivation during any type of depressive-inducing situations
If this logic seems correct to anyone, it proves that one can fight for their right for happiness

I am much smarter than you think. but I will not boast here of personal value, but I will not back down from demeaning comments. And again, this is my opinion, this is myself, this is a free country, this is the internet which is free, free for public use, this is a free forum as well that includes the freedom of speech, so I shall continue and not stop at your inferences to tell me to stop.

You said chronic depression/anxiety, I would not hesitate to recommend an SSRI for temporary relief to allow one to get back on their feet.
This type of anecdotal self-proclaimed genetic predisposition to depression leads one to believe in helplessness and that depression is out of the user's hand

I must clarify this comment: When I refer to "this type" of "anecdotal self-proclaimed genetic predisposition to depression", it does not refer back to your first subject of chronic depression/anxiety, they are entirely different in my eyes. And I must clarify that in your chronic depression/anxiety subject, I do support SSRI use *Until one is able to get back on their own optimal metaphorical thought processing feet. In which there after, due to a gain in counter-active depressive thought processing knowledge, and the desire for self-worth improvement, accompanied with complete and utter trust in at least one person/friend, and with the knowledge that the only realistic physical thing stopping anyone from getting out of their bed and getting up, is their legs, not their thoughts; one can successfully fend off soon-to-be diminishing waves of depression. One can immediately indulge in self-worth gaining right out of bed by something like exercise, or any other personal preference (nootropic knowledge), everyday. Repetition is key. Successful thought processing (which includes completely understanding that there always has to be a balance between morals such as patience and assertiveness, the morals of happy and sadness, fear and bravery, giving and taking, listening and talking, telling the truth to clear un-needed thought processes during conversation in the brain, ect.), plus a constant pursuit in personal *progressive desires, at a repetitive rate everyday, consistently, will lead to a gradual subsiding of the many depressant claims that physically are not genetically pre-disposed or had some type of poisoning.

The mind is a powerful thing, and we should not belittle its grandeur, its complexity, its designs, its dominant brainwaves, and we musn't forget that brains throughout the ages, created what the environment is around us, and that the creator shall never be engulfed by the created. Human's are meant to fight for success

[Logan]

You're right, the mind is powerful, but is is also very vulnerable and fragile.

I did not say that in every situation a child could not overcome and prevent things in a way that would allow them to have a productive life. Many people that experienced damaging neglect and stress early in development and throughout adolescence will not ever experience major chronic depression, mainly due to not having the genetic factors. That said, it is guaranteed that they will have some sort of dysfunction in relationships, and, they will have underlying sadness/angst, until they work very hard in therapy for the necessary amount of time.

[Logan]

The "training" or "conditioning" approach you speak of does work, but the effects may not be long lasting without psychodynamic therapy-the only way to find a genuine and permanent solution to issues with self esteem and self worth.

[aaron43]

The "training" or "conditioning" approach you speak of does work, but the effects may not be long lasting without psychodynamic therapy-the only way to find a genuine and permanent solution to issues with self esteem and self worth.

This I completely agree with, there should be developments to inform the public in how to engage in psychodynamic therapy (the primary focus of which is to reveal the unconscious content of a client's psyche in an effort to alleviate psychic tension) for personal use that is cheap and effective. Trainings/exercises that may do the same thing, even though therapists are intensively used, there should be newly developed techniques in how to discover one's unconscious.

Personally this makes sense, I smoke weed and when I would get in a situation that could provoke fear, stress, anger, any other emotion, I would feel that this is a subconscious belief that is making itself present in the situation. I would then prod into why I had the feeling exactly at the same time that I was experiencing the negative feeling, and would force myself to believe that I was alright and logically induce it; in which I always turned out to be alright. I always thought of it as a way to fix my subconscious thoughts, for use when I'd be sober. And from what I have seen, if I can conquer the situation when I am high, I can always conquer the situation when I'm sober. But note this is my own personal way, and there is no evidence proving it, and it is probably wrong, but it is a belief I have and it seems to work for myself. But it takes a while to be able to control the high into a productive manner so this should be looked at as a deterrent

Edited by aaron43, 20 July 2011 - 08:07 AM.

[aaron43]

I have just learned that Methylene Blue and SSRI's are safe to take together
So what does anyone think about this?

Methylene blue facilitates the extinction of fear in an animal model of susceptibility to learned helplessness.
+
Antidepressant/SSRI

Could both work together to facilitate a stronger extinction of fear?

Edited by aaron43, 20 July 2011 - 09:34 AM.

[Logan]

I have just learned that Methylene Blue and SSRI's are safe to take together
So what does anyone think about this?

Methylene blue facilitates the extinction of fear in an animal model of susceptibility to learned helplessness.
+
Antidepressant/SSRI

Could both work together to facilitate a stronger extinction of fear?

Well, I think we are about to find out if this is the case with me. I'm really looking more for enhanced brain function and energy. If I get a mood boost along with lessened anxiety that would be a bonus.

[niner]

I have just learned that Methylene Blue and SSRI's are safe to take together

At sub-milligram oral doses.

So what does anyone think about this?

Methylene blue facilitates the extinction of fear in an animal model of susceptibility to learned helplessness.
+
Antidepressant/SSRI

Could both work together to facilitate a stronger extinction of fear?

The rats got 4 mg/kg, intraperitoneally. That's a pretty large dose, and a pretty efficient route. It might bring about serotonin toxicity. Another question would be: Would a nootropic dose of MB help with fear extinction? Do SSRIs by themselves help with fear extinction?