55 replies to this topic

[susmariosep]

I forgot to mention to Stranger and to Lazarus that it might be more practical for Stranger, to just send in a private message to the poster he has a grudge against, the angry message with all the vituperative words he wants to throw at him; or if Stranger and posters like him would not use private messages for their angry outbursts, then for Lazarus, an editor of this Forum, and all the powers that be here, to instead of editing by removing offensive words and lines, to send such uncivil messages to a section in the free Speech department or in that called Catcher, a section which I would suggest can be meaningfully labeled as 'black hole'.

In this manner, others will be spared the presence of unsavory messages, and free speech will still be respected however uncivil the speech be.

But anyone interested can still repair to the black hole section and see what kinds of messages are not deserving of publication in a civil environment, although in respect of free speech they are still published -- in a special section. And people who want to write messages in an uncivil tongue can continue to do so, until they get tired and decide to write as civilized people do.

Susma

[Lazarus Long]

I gave Stranger a chance to edit his own language and I have asked everyone to take such personal comments to PM. I agree completely with that suggestion.

But I also think there is a misunderstanding of the rules of decorum outside the Free Speech Zone.

This is not a street corner, a chat room, or a bar. It isn't a courtroom or Congress either but it does have much of the atmosphere of a self organized classroom.

This area is structured differently from what many are used to and we ask that everyone abide by this more formal structure so as to not only imbue a simple sense of decorum but to ensure a certain amount of objectivity and protection for the idea being communicated.

If people begin to act unruly it is a gross distraction and destructive to the thread (train of thought) as a whole.

I happen to have a reputation as vociferously DEFENDING Free Speech even more for others than myself. If you didn't notice I made an example of Stranger by editing the content which was ad hominem attack but leaving the actual intent of the message. I took out two lines and nothing except spleen disappeared.

That should be a dead giveaway that it was not necessary to the thought process in the first place but more important the other parts while personalizing in a manner that violates our rules actually detracted from the substance of the message.

I frankly find it abhorrent to edit someone else's work because I see it as a violation of their personal expression but it is also a responsibility that I exercise as a last resort and then endeavor to do my best to do so fairly. In that sense I am a reluctant enforcer but when Stranger ignored my request for two days to correct the problem I decided that it was necessary to make a public example demonstrating what can and will be done, and why.

Consider it the clearly visible line in the sand.

If you folks want to open religion discussion threads and have free for all discussion with no structure or rules of decorum why don't you just open them in the Free Speech zone?

That is ironically one of the specific forms of speech that the first amendment was written to protect.

If you want to introduce ideas in our regular forum area devoted to the study of global religion then you will abide by the rules and discuss the specifics of the subject and reduce the tone to a more scholastic one please. Maybe think of it like horsing around in a library, or classroom, it is inappropriate and for the most part destructive.

Rules are rules, follow them and I have no reason to interfere at all, and won't.

BTW, I normally do save anything that is not critical in either the catcher or a new thread. This was not anything more than invective and frankly it isn't just about you Susma, it is about the forum as a whole and how everyone who comes here experiences it.

Structured Speech is not the opposite of Free Speech but it is a different form than most are used to or comfortable with. Get used to it if you want to converse in an academic environment regardless of the subject being hard science, social science, or political science. Just figure if it is science it will be structured.

In these areas religion, philosophy, and politics are treated as branches basically of the social sciences. We are not so rigid that people can't make jokes or post personal thoughts etc but we won't tolerate invective, period. Learn the discipline, we have alternative places where these rules are not enforced.

It is also the case that many of us hope this idea will encourage the more knowledgeable contributors and scientists, scholars among us to stay resident in these forums and feel comfortable conversing thus making these complex subjects more accessible and transparent for the average folks coming to visit.

[susmariosep]

Stranger]  I do not hate you or even dislike you, and I feel that you should be allowed to voice your opinion, But as was mentioned by lazarus,truth distortion is anathema to valid discourse on any subject worthy of dialogue. Woe to the man who ignores this lesson, his intellectual demise will be brought about in short order on a forum such as this.

My interaction with this thread is therefore concluded, My apologies to imminst members who were bored with this thread, that was not my initial intention.

Please come back to your thread, Karo.

You should not leave at the first appearance of turmoil.

And I was looking forward to an educational tour with you on atheism and particularly on de Sade's views of God and religion, specially the Christian faith.


De Sade was a Catholic brought up in the best school run by the Jesuits, why he turned to atheism should be a good study. I for one to the dismay of some posters here maintain that there are theoretical atheists and emotional atheists.

Theoretical atheists are like, no offense intended, my pets at home, a dog and a cat; they observe and know many things about people but they are not affected emotionally, as long as their existence is not affected in any manner adversely. So they see a piece of porcelain drop and breaks into pieces, but it's all the same for them, porcelain whole or porcelain shattered. But if someone cruel throws a piece of porcelain ware at them, they duck and run away.

Emotional atheists are like my pet animals who are motivated by unhappy or unacceptable experience to become affectively hostile to God; even though as they are intelligent they know that it is illogical to be hostile to God, whether God exists or not -- specially if God does not exist.

Then also we can discuss no end about my to Stranger's and Macdog's eyes, contradictory stands on various issues. I for one maintain that a person can be contradictory in various stands, which stands are of an abstract character.

When we come to the physical world we can't be contradictory unless we choose to be frozen to inaction. But with abstract issues in many instances contradiction is possible and welcome. And it is the privilege of a free mind and a free will.

I guess this message carries enough materials for us to get going with our exchange of views, to my education if not for yours too.

Here is my contention about de Sade: he became an atheist because his Catholic background and culture and society would not put up with his weakness of sexual satisfaction from torture of women.

But to his credit I understand that he was also into studying his own behavior, to understand himself better. And he reached the conclusion favorable to himself that sexual behavior can be seen also in a kind of bell curve.

I agree with him, but I would tell him to exercise strenuous control over his peculiar sexuality, because in a bell curve mankind, the majority will not allow the extreme left and right end minorities to disrupt their orderly world.

Susma

[susmariosep]

Dear Good Lazarus:

Time and again I have thought of just restricting my appearance here to the Free Speech department.

But I come to the conclusion again and again that it is not enjoyable for me to restrict myself to that place. Why?

Because there are issues which I want to react to but are brought up by posters outside that place; so if I keep myself exclusively to that place, I would be missing a lot of fun outside.

Then also, whether some people like it or not, and even though I admit to have fun with reading and writing in web forums, I maintain that modesty aside I do have ideas that at least visitors to this ImmInst forum can find useful to their own education. Yes, a big word, education; as I myself keep confessing that I am after education for myself in web forums and in the Net generally.

The Net is for me a source of quick easy and brief but not necessarily abridged education. And that's what I insist with Nate in that thread on an Online Introduction to Philosophy, that philosophers should master the art of telling people their ideas in brief quick easy expositions. It's possible, the right phrase can impart the whole in gist of a big volume.

I mean I would not want to start a thread in the Free Speech section, because like it or not, the very word free stands in many instances and also automatically for people the impression of being loose. No, my ideas are not loose, they might be cynically humorous, but never loose; and my language is not loose either, even though people can notice that it is not English as they speak in the US or other lands where English is the native tongue.

And those are the reasons why I do not restrict myself to the Free Speech section.


Now, I just hope that Karo will return to this thread; because we can learn a few things from each other, if nothing else, how to remain calm and focused on ideas and positions as we differ on our respective attitudes.


... and good Lazarus, just tell me anytime at all if I am geting out of order here with my posts. About Theon, I regret suggesting to you that he might be a candidate for the black hole section; so I retract that suggestion.

I must congratulate you however for your talent in being able to decode his messages. For myself I am resigned to not possess such a gift, more probably to Theon's benefit; as then I would not risk mistaking his legitimate intention, as I at the start thought that he was into crude garbling of my posts.

Best regards, and I can understand and appreciate the time and labor you put into the task of being an editor here.


Susma

[stranger]

Susma,

First, my regards for good Lazarus, for setting everything right within these confines.

My technical difficulties are over, for now.

I've been going over the last few posts. I'll do what I can,for now.

These are your questions.

"I have no experience and cannot have any communication, with spirits"

You are probably at the age I was, some twenty, or thirty years, ago. I am not saying that you'll have to wait that long to experience a 'little' something sometime in the not-too-distant future. Much depends on your sincerity. Your intellect can 'tag' along, but it is your subconcious mind (inner awareness) that determines whether you are capable of perceiving any paranormal activity. In time, it can be done even on a more conscious state of mind. Also, not everyone sensitive to such matters experiences it in the same manner. There are endless possibilities in the manner in which anyone can experience messages from the world beyond.

"Tell me, when you communicate with gods, demigods,etc.,do you do so with or without audible voice both from you and them? This means, you talk with your lips(mouth) and they talk with their what?"

I don't need to voice my questions. All higher spirits are capable of reading anyone's mind. When they answer, like I said, they can do it in any of our established ways of communication. They might not always answer right away, either. You are probably wondering what 'our' established ways of communication are. Well, I can describe some,but most are rather subtle to be understood. And also, like magic tricks, they cannot always be revealed as to how exactly they are done. Also, many times, it is imperative to be in a 'trance' mode. That is even tougher to describe. It is not mere passive meditation. Being in trance is akin to being outside of the body. You don't leave the body, but the consciousness is transcendental to normal consciousness. This is a process that I learned almost automatically. It wasn't automatic in the sense that it came easy. It was automatic in the sense that it was a result of the 'killing' of the body--the austerities that I had to endure--the endless fasting,etc. It wasn't total annihilation of the body, it was more like a reduction of energy from the spirit source to my own soul. They pushed me so close to the brink of death, that I was clinging to the body by a mere thread. My awareness didn't waver much,but physically and emotionally, I was almost totally annihilated. Like I said before, they wanted me to experience the pain and anguish of death without actually and totally wiping me out. It is not very easy to put into words. I am doing my best to describe what it was like for me to 'earn' the awareness of the 'second attention'. That second attention is something like the higher self other spiritual proponents describe. The other you. The real and original self. Some call it the 'double'. The physical body is only an extension of that original self. I've told you before. We are luminous beings. I don't know if you understood the term. Luminous ,in this case, means that we are beings of light(energy) temporarily encased in a physical body(for whatever reason. We are not all in this world for the exact,same reason as others)

What they did, in other words, was to unlock my own awareness from within the confines of my physical body. Sort of like getting out of body consciousness without actually leaving the body. They don't want me to mess with astral projection or the like, because they know that if I do, I will not want to come back to this world. That's for sure. I have endured so much pain and penance, that , sometimes I don't care whether they 'pay' me or not for what they promised. The problem is that they are not done with their discipline. I live in this world, but in a way, I am still under their orders. For how long? I am not too sure.

continued on next post

stranger

[stranger]

Susma,

from previous post.

Like I said. Reading the mind, for them, is the easy part. Transmitting the reply is a little more difficult. Sometimes, I can be having a certain thought and they can respond to it almost instantly. They do so by using the 'walk-in' method. In this method they use the body and the voice of anyone in my company or within earshot of myself. The 'vehicle' ,or person, used is not even aware of it. The person doing the talking may be saying something himself, but at the same time, he is actually sending a signal or indirect response from the third party. To me, the effect is very direct, though. It's similar to the experiences normal people have when listening to the radio. Sometimes you're thinking of a an old song, or even a certain subject or person, and then the proceeding song will reflect the very thought you had just seconds or minutes earlier. That is another form of telepathy. It sounds silly, and unverifiable, but spirits are constantly 'bombarding' us with all kinds of signs from the other side. It's like when you're missing a departed loved one and then you get an unmistakeable sign from the person. It can be sent in any number of ways. The dream state is the perfect medium.

That's how they started with me. At first, I dismissed their introduction into my life as mere dreams. They got fairly aggressive and insistent in time that I had to pay more heed to what they were actually trying to tell me. When they got my attention, they quickly established their methods for use during my waking hours. It wasn't long before I found out that this life that we currently live in is almost like a physical dream. It is not an illusion. It is only temporary. And we are subjective to the higher dimensions. You may wonder why I believed everything that they told me, even from the beginning. Well, I already told you. I was dealing with a dearly 'departed' brother of mine. He gave me too much 'proof' for me to believe that it might be an impostor. The other spirit is that of a well-known Indian guru whose books I was barely getting acquainted with at the time. This man, incidentally, wrote and translated from ancient Sanskrit texts , an endless number of books. He wasn't a 'simple' yogi. He was very wise even when here on Earth.

This is another of your questions.
"Where and how did they master English?"
They understand any language. How they do it? I don't know. What I do know is that when one is in the other world, one is not in limited consciousness any longer. On the other side spirits communicate mainly by telepathy. Movement from place to place is done by merely thinking about it. Sort of like being in a virtual world. Except that that world is as real as the one we're in is as real to us here.

I don't know if you remember in a conversation I had with Mike about an experience I had with the first two teachers. It had been a month or so since we had gotten to know each other. I knew that they were 'hanging around' (as spirits)
but they gave me a little proof,even without me asking for any.

I didn't think much of it at the time. Like I said, to me that was 'normal'.
But upon recounting this experience to Mike, I came to another realization. One from the perspective of an inquisitive physicist. I know that the phenomena of hauntings is nothing new. You know, about spirits or ghosts moving objects in haunted houses.
In this case, they not only moved a solid object( red plastic-insulated electricians's metal wire cutters--pliers) from one place to another, they were able to somehow(?) push that tool through a metal screen and into the inside of the house without damaging the screen. Only lately, did I ask them how they had managed to do it. At the time, I had accepted it as 'normal' (for spirits).
What they told me is something akin to the theory of relativity E=mc 2.

What we perceive as 'solid' is only relative,but only to the effects or lack of effects of an energy source . That is why they say that this world ,although apparently real, is only temporary, in the continuoum of space and time--(this dimension).

I cannot even comprehend it entirely myself, from the physicists' point of view, but what they said is that they 'suspended' the atomic particles of the screen itself for the pliers to get through. I guess it was easier than suspending the particles of the heavier object(the tool). And once inside of the house( and incidentally, right on the window sill) the screen was 'rematerialized' ( with whatever energy they utilized).

Like I said, at the time, I just accepted the incident as 'normal'. They performed other similar tricks, but that was the most unusual one, since I had been working with the tools on a car and then those mysterious pliers just vanished. Not before my eyes, but before my presence. I had seen them on the tool tray moments before and when I reached for them they were gone. I had to resort to the use of another tool, but when I went upstairs to clean up( there was nobody in the house)the first thing that caught my eye when I entered the living room to put on the radio, were the wire-cutters on the window will. I noticed the screen on and yet at the time it didn't seem so shocking. What was shocking was the fact that they were there in the first place. With not a soul in sight.


later,
stranger

[susmariosep]

Thanks, Stranger,for your very sincere and frank and down to earth descriptions of your communings with spirits.

I guess there is no doubting that you did have those experiences and can have them and will have them recurrently.

Please don't feel that I am into mockery of you and the spirits, with the questions I am going to ask you below. At least I am convinced that you do have such experiences. If nothing else, experiences have existence; they are not nothing. And I accept your accounts of such experiences to be genuine instances of existence.

I have a lot of questions, and if you feel that I am as I said earlier making a mockery of you and the spirits, please don't; I am serious. It's like when one talks about certain things for example, that old and very popularized topic, sex, even when done in a clinical and academic fashion, one's attention can't helped but be drawn to the more queasy aspects of sex. So also if you feel any mockery, please don't; it's certainly not my intention.

Here, my first question: In your communings with the spirits can you have a threesome conversation, two or more human parties together dialoguing with the spirits, like in a kind of round table conference, where everyone hears and relates to everyone else -- with everyone: humans and spirits involved in the topic and pursuing the topic concertedly? Or is your communing with the spirits always on a one human party, you, with one or several spirit parties, namely, the gods or demigods, as you call them.

Thanks, and I am obligated to you for your patience to satisfy my inquiry.

Susma

[stranger]

Susma,

First of all, I'm glad that you got something out of the last post. I am not one very crafty with words. I am able to write what I do because to me it is like engaging in a normal conversation. I tell the story easily because I am actually still living it. When I was younger, I wasn't interested in religion at all. Yeah, I had my beliefs, but that was something far,far away from my daily thoughts and doings. I got interested in the field of psychology because I had a teacher that insisted I pursue a career in the health profession. In high school and in the community college I attended, I did fairly well. I took the introductory courses in psychology and really enjoyed them. My sophomore literature course wasn't really boring, but it was pretty demanding. I decided to 'postpone' it for some other time. After those two years of college, I decided to take a break and enjoy life a while. I had a real cool chick and was already doing fine with my vocation.
For a while, (two or three semesters went by rather quickly) everything was fine and dandy. It was while I was contenmplating going back to college that things in my life started to go in a direction of their own. Fortunately, I had never lost interest in the field of parapsychology, or the paranormal. The books that I came across in those years, either by borrowing or by purchasing, served me well--for what was to come sooner than I had expected. I was much like you. I would think that I would never have a spiritual guide or spirit friend. I was already getting so restless, that I had begun my exercises into achieving astral projection.
I thought, if nobody's gonna come around, I might as well go into their world myself.

But like the old saying goes," when the student is ready, the master will appear".
Well, that did come to pass in my life right when I needed it to. In the beginning, all they were concerned with was that I not be uneasy with them. We enjoyed each other's company and talked about fairly mundane things. It wasn't long before they made it known that the real reason they were around was to facilitate my transition into the other world. I wanted to practice astral projecting, but it seemed that I had gotten more than I had bargained for!--final projection. Well, I resigned myself for whatever happened. It really didn't bother me. Actually, it was good news, in a way. I had had enough fun in my life and was looking forward to something different. Well, like I've told you a thousand times, they did send me back, but at a price. A very heavy price. It seemed easy in the beginning,but after a while , it began to take a toll on me. Those two teachers were so uneartlhy in their way of instituting their discipline that when Jesus finally took pity on me, it was like a breath of fresh air in my life,literally. It was like going from a black and white world(4 years) into a world of light and color. I spent another eight years learning some things from Jesus, and most were personal. He wasn't into rehashing stuff from the Bible, although He did point out a few good gold nuggets. He didn't demand that I read it from cover to cover,or stuff like that. He wasn't too concerned with instituting his religion so much.
In l994, he introduced me to 'the old Man'( Jehovah). And thank God ( Himself), He wasn't so much into being overly religious.

Everything I have learned has been taught from a more mystical perspective. Even when Allah Himself showed up(on his own during a trance-meditative state). He didn't ask me to go get a copy of the Koran. That night when He(A) showed up in my study, the whole room became engulfed in His presence. I didn't know who it was. I was meditating(rather deeply) and drawing at the same time,but I had been in the company of my old Man(Jehovah). And I could tell there was a second ominous,or rather portentous spirit. It didn't seem threatening, but it was kinda overpowering. Jehovah, adviced me to ignore it,however, insistent it'd be. Well, that went on for a couple more times on different occassions. By that time, I could discern some Arabic feeling and kept on almost hearing the word aladin(not Allah).
I could also sense that it was some dark towering figure. Jehovah, finally relented and proceeded to introduce me to that mysterious figure. He used the very word 'brother'. To say that I was stunned, would be an understatement. I couldn't believe that God could have a brother,much less for Allah himself to be one. At the time, I had almost no notion of what it meant to be a Muslim or even what Islam implied. I did, but barely. It was so far from my every day thoughts, that I never even bothered contemplating about that religion. I wasn't into religion to begin with, anyway.
Anyway, in the beginning, all Allah wanted from me was his own portrait(pencil or whatever). I've told you this before, I know, but I am repeating it because it merits so. Well, it wasn't long before I got used to his visits from time to time.
Even then,1997, they adviced that if I ever wrote a little something, to make clear that they are not one and the same Deity.
I have since known the other Deities, but Allah has always been very generous in sharing knowledge about his identity and nature,especially in the dream state. Those dreams are dreams of true revelation in nature. And so powerful.

September 11,2001 had a very profound impact in my life. Suddenly, nobody wanted much to do with anything Arabic. To me, before 911, Arabia seemed quite interesting, at least the architecture and some other things. Nowadays, everyone thinks that Allah,like the God of the Old Testament, is a very mean God.
And He didn't even have anything to do with the events of 911. I guess, that's the irony of living in this world. There are things that are totally beyond comprehension. And the worst part about it is that everyone blames God for not preventing such catastrophes. Even I was perplexed when the events happened. I thought, how could a God let such tragedies occur? In time , I got my answers through other sources,but I will not feel at liberty to post them here. It is something that is not for me to talk about.

About your question.

Three-way conversations are very common in my communications, but only when they involve two or more spirits and myself. When they want to send greetings to a friend of mine they ask me to relay the messages.

I forgot to mention on my last post another way spirits communicate with me even on a conscious level. You see, most of my spirit teachers have their secret codes. Those are numeric, color,etc. Just like you associate the number 33 with Jesus, I am able to distinguish one god from another by their secret number and favorite color. The secondary and tertiary colors also apply,naturally. So, like when a friend or anyone is wearing the secret symbols I pay particular attention to both my surroundings and any imminent conversation. When the particular 'vehicle' goes even further than merely wearing secret code symbols I pay even closer attention. Sometimes, I can gaze into their eyes and see 'someone' else. It can be that direct. All that can happen during the day and yet I am able to feel sorta momentarily spaced out. I kinda get a little high out of it,actually.

I'm gonna stop for now. Before I get disconnected.

later
Stranger

[susmariosep]

Dear Stranger:

In a way I feel shortchanged because I don't have your kind of experience, as I think it is enriching to life. If life is experience and it is unless anyone would like to go through life without experience -- an aside, that's why I can never accept Buddhism as I understand it to be after non-experience, which is as I understand again, in the Nirvana of extinction of what? consciousness?

Okay, I will save that for my thread on Buddha and his original teachings. You know better of Buddhism maybe also from experience of and with Buddha; then please go to that thread again, and we can talk Buddha and Buddhism in a cordial mood as we are now doing here.

I thought I read something maybe in your PM to me about your having a family and a job, some employment in the entertainment sector?

That's why I told Macdog that as long as a person is a dependable, earning his own keep and providing for the keep of his family, for me he is possessed of nobility.

If I may, do you have a family, wife and children, and also occupied with earning money for the needs of life, for yourself and your family?

I must apologize, but I do have this, maybe it might be called bias, that managing a family and working for a living might not go very well with communings with spirits.

I have so many questions to ask from you and of you. And if you feel that as we had before that side issue about 'lab rat', please don't be offended; I am curious but I do have a respect and an admiration for you even.

You see, if I can have the kind of experience you have with communings with spirits, why? as I said, life for me could be more rich. Of course there are experiences which could cost the life of the person doing the experience.

For example if I were to want to experience death and I shoot myself in the head, from knowing about dead people, I am afraid that such an experience would not be or I would not be around to reflect on my experience of shooting myself in the head and in effect from common stock knowledge, dying and being dead.

I will just limit myself in this post to two questions, the first one already stated above, namely, are you heading a family like say as a husband/father to your wife and children, and also engaged in working for a living?

My second question is the following:

You say that Three-way conversations are very common in my communications, but only when they involve two or more spirits and myself. When they want to send greetings to a friend of mine they ask me to relay the messages; and this is where I -- and you will agree with me as you are conversant also with what we learned in school about the need for witnesses like ourselves, fellow humans, to validate our experience and the objects of our experience -- will ask you how are you to get people to confirm your experience of Jesus, Jehovah, and Allah, when no fellow humans are with you in your encounters with these spirits, and they also are in the encounters and are directly and personally involved, as I said, in some kind of a round table conference.

The papers in my place this morning have an account of a hazing that went very wrong, the candidate for a campus fraternity died from the hazing received from guys doing the initiation on him.

Some guys doing the hazing turned chicken and talked.

That's what I mean by the need to have fellow humans in and into your encounters with spirits like Jesus, Jehovah, and Allah.

Maybe that is why also people get together for séance in attempts to contact the dead. But as usual it is only one person, called the medium, doing all the actual direct personal contacts and the others are essentially getting an inkling of the encounters on hearsay from the medium.

Susma

[stranger]

Susma,

How's it going?

I will answer these questions for now. I think it's getting a little boring.
Although it doesn't bother me much, I think you should start some new threads.
I promise I won't mess around, even if I don't agree with your views. I'll join on in if I see something related to what I have 'experienced'.

This is one of your questions.

"If I may, do you have a family,wife and children, and also occupied with earning money for the needs of life, for yourself and your family?''

Yes, Susma, I have a wife and three young children. Yes, I have to work to be able to pay my bills. No, I don't work in the entertainment sector. I am a lowly custom painter. I mostly do older auto restorations. I collect some of the older 'mopars' and rebuild them for my enjoyment. (Mopars are the old Dodges and Plymouth cars). Like I told you before,this vocation I undertook before I gave college a try. When I took the break from college, I depended on this vocation to get by. At the time, I wasn't married or engaged, so I lived only for the partying and the cruising scene. Life was good. I had intended to go back to college. I needed only the six soph. literature hours. At the time, psychology seemed like an interesting field. And it seemed easy enough. But like I told you before, I wanted to go into that field because that way I could study ,personally, whatever parapsychology or paranormal stuff I could get a hold of. I was already very familiar with a lot of the stuff available back then. And it just 'was' a part of me.
What changed everything was the introduction of my first two teachers into my life.
And like I've implied all along, they didn't come around part-time. They were with me almost twenty hours a day for four years. It's not that the houses I've lived in were haunted. I,myself, felt like I was possessed in a way. They were doing a lot of good for me, and yet, at the same time, they were giving me hell. They only called it the 'fire and the water'. It was such a total 'reprogramming' of my mental and physical selves. It was so bad for the first couple of years, I could only eat whatever and whenever they permitted. I ate a lot of bread(sweet) during those years. Thank God we have several bakeries in our town. The meat markets were nnot for me to 'visit'. I was allowed to have some bar-b-cue steak once or twice a month, and only if my younger brother and his friends did the cooking, which were the occassional Sundays. The Hindu swami was very,very strict. I thought I would never see 'real' food again. That came several years later when Jesus took me under his wing. He said I was not going anywhere anytime soon, so I 'better rematerialize'. He said I wouldn't be living a life of a Hindu monk for the rest of my days. He said I would live among the Christians. Ten years later, when I was introduced to the Hindu God Himself, the first thing that came to my mind was the dreaded vegetarian diet. He quickly assured me not to worry. He said that with all the deaths I had gone through I was more than welcome to eat what his cats and tigers eat. Talk about having the cake and eating it,too. (Hey man, I drink my brews,too. You know you can't drink beer, if you don't use the canines from time to time).

About your other question.

About having people 'join' in on my conversations with the spirits.

When I first started going around with the girl that later became my wife, I would mention to her a little bit about the only two teachers that I had then. She took great interest on the subject and saw no reason for concern,since I assured her that one of the guides was my own brother. It didn't take long for her to get 'in tune' with them. She didn't last six months. She said wanted no more part of if. I guess she found out that it is not a game. For a while, she thought it was cool. She even had some 'strange' things occur at her own house. She was convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt, of their peculiar existence, but then 'lost' interest.
We have been married almost eighteen years, and she's not too happy with all of the changes I have gone through. I have a room that serves as my study and the walls are filled with portraits and unfinished paintings,but she's not too happy about it. Sometimes she mellows down and doesn't bother me at all, and just lets me be. Sometimes, she really wants to tear the pictures of the walls. My children don't really care either way. I have enough pictures of Jesus, so they don't think the other ones are bad.

Your last concern.

"That's what I mean by the need to have fellow humans in and into your encounters with Spirits like Jesus, Jehovah, Allah,etc."

I can't comprehend what you mean by that having anything to do with the hazing incident. But as far as me having any invitees into conversations, I don't know.
I do tell my friends ''who's'' looking out for them. The Spirits, or even the Gods, you see, they have a certain degree of interest in the going ons of this world. They have their own people, or the ones they take as their own, and influence their lives as much as they can. You once asked if the gods enjoyed sports and the like, and although Mac dog thought it to be a ridiculous question at the time, even if I didn't take the opportunity to answer it, I didn't think it was as ridiculous as he thought. It might seem odd, maybe, but , yes, they do enjoy sports and music and art and even the sciences. They are actually the ones giving us the ideas or the inspiration. In the NBA, for example, I can see certain players and their overlighting lords. They might not be with them, day and night, but in the course of the games , they are very much with them. The same for the musicians.
Rock and roll is almost dead nowadays, but not too long ago, there was a lot of activity going on over the rockers of those days. I am not saying that all of the musicians were being directly influenced by the spirits, but a lot of them were.
I know it is not easy to believe or understand.

As far as having some of my claims confirmed, I wish I could afford those real good psychics to see if they can peer into my going ons. There was one. This guy was a little freaked out. He did actually say that there seemed to be 'a lot of deities'. And a lot of other stuff. He didn't think much of it,but then he goes " I see a someone like a mother figure, but she is not your mother, but she says she will be with you till the day you die. He sounded a little shocked himself. I don't know what he saw,but I knew who he was talking about. That Goddess(Grandmother Krsna) later confirmed it for me. I know it sounds like a fairy tale, but I was fortunate enough one day not too long ago, long before I even talked to Jesus,or any other of the male Gods, to have a real visit from such Goddess. That visit,in itself, is a very long story, but it is very personal.

later,
stranger

P.S. Susma, I'll try to join you on your other threads. If you have any last words here, that's fine,but let's not get too carried away. I don't expect you to believe my words or stories. I share them out of a sense of duty. I have never before cared much for any kind of writing. I am more of a right-brained dude. I wasn't too dumb academically in high school or the junior college, but I have never cared for writing. When the swami came into my life, he said, ''one day you are going to write for me". And I said, " I don't think so" I told him that it wasn't that I didn't want to, it just was that it is not in me--to be a writer. These little high school level words that I use here(barely) I do because that's all I can do. To me it's the story that matters. I am not trying to be a writer.

[susmariosep]

Dear Stranger:

I must congratulate you sincerely for being in the ranks of the dependables on whom dependents rely upon for their keep. What will happen to the species of man if there are no dependables? A very mundane orbservation which I maintain is of the utmost importance, whatever profound philosophers and scientists are engrossed with, other issues, of which in all humility I admit to be not in the company.

I mentioned the report of a hazing in my immediate society which went very wrong, to illustrate to you what I mean by the importance of having participating witnesses to an event of which a party claims to be a protagonist in. In your case you tell us that you have communings with spirits. What do you think, is it possible for people like you to get together with you to engage the spirits together, so that when interviewed separately you all, the humans, can recount to us faithfully the same event and the same circumstances?

I have to go through your messages here more carefully, but I seem to not have a categorical answer to this question. It's like this, I tell my son that I was to a place where I joined other guys in banqueting on exotic cuisine for a fixed cost of only $5. He could not believe me; so I brought him there and we feasted, he and I, together for $5 each. What do you say, can you get some guys to join you together in communing with the spirits who contact you.

Before I forget, for myself I don't give a damn what spirits people go into, as long as they don't cause any trouble to their neighbors, don't kill themselves to the sorrow of their loved ones, and don't obstruct the daily routines of their family and their home, and most important as I said again and again, contribute to the support of themselves and of dependents relying upon them for their keep.

It's like I don't mind if people go about with outrageous to my taste hairdos, or non-hairdos, which we are seeing more and more on public stages among entertainment figures; for if they don't go into the directions described in the preceding paragraph, they are perfectly within their right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

May I ask you this second question (the first one is about getting fellow humans to participate with you in communing with the spirits), in a choice between them and your family and home, which would you side with, the spirits even to the detriment of time and cost to your family?

One last question, even though you feel bored, you call these spirits your guides, can you give me some guidelines they give you for the direction of life, or even more concretely mundane, in your livelihood activities, how to do a better painting job of a car you are restoring, like doing it faster, better, and also at less cost.

Thanks, and I am glad to know more of you so as to enlarge my horizons about the kinds of peoples we have in mankind, even though some of them are very small minorities, like yourself.

Susma

[stranger]

Susma,

O.K., talk all you want. Or ask whatever you like. I'll try to oblige. I'm just concerned about us carrying on like if it's our place here. Especially, since this place here doesn't cater to religious or spiritualists, exclusively. That's why I want you to start other threads to engage others in your dialogues.

Your question about me being able to set up a 'meeting' between me and other people and the spirits...?

I've never thought about it. I've never had anyone of my acquaintances even hint at such an idea. I'm pretty sure it is possible,but then again, much depends on what spirit they would want to call. The Gods themselves are always pointing out their own proteges(in my day to day dealings). I keep to myself. In other words, the people that I deal with, I am able(with my guidance)to tell who it is that brings them to me. It is not just the Gods, the demigods play a major part also, in my everyday affairs. They also work together,even in my mundane affairs. The ones that have bad intentions are pointed out also. I stay away from those. You would not believe, how many of those are 'filtered' out.

As far as the proteges are concerned, yes, I share with them their benedictions, whenever the opportunity arises. I have a number of close friends with who I talk a lot about the subject. And among those friends, there are some that are even closer within the circle. Currently, one of those friends is in a very serious interaction between me and him and Jehovah. He's an old friend. Jehovah brought him to me recently for some work( a lot of work, actually) and I gave him a few copies of my portraits. He tells me he treasures those pictures. He even tells me that he can feel the power and the presence of the 'old Man'. He says that he 'talks' to Him and that he can sense a reciprocation. I haven't asked my friend exactly how he perceives his own discernments,if it is through telepathic means, or by some type of sign. But just by looking at his eyes,when he tells me about it, seems to me that he's not making things up. This friend of mine,who I gave the copies to, ( of an almost finished poster-sized painting )actually took the painting inadvertently rolled up with some other drawings. I think the painting means too much to him, since he hasn't bothered returning it. He says that he has it in a very special place, so I have let him keep it. After all, we're both sons of that Deity. And with all the work that he has brought me( he's a fellow custom freak)
I think he deserves it. I have dozens and dozens of pencil portraits and unfinished paintings of several of the Gods and demigods. Some of them are still waiting for their very own. Some of them are happy even with a simple pencil sketch. When I was younger, I never cared much for doing portraits of anyone, maybe of Jesus, but I could never get it right. I owe a lot to Jehovah himself for actually teaching me a better way. I haven't refined those newly-acquired skills, but so far I have been able to somehow capture their essence and personalities. I used to have to go into trance before, in order to visualize them. Nowadays, I know them so much better, I am able to do my work on a lighter or more casual mood.

continued on next page
stranger

[stranger]

Susma,

This is your second question.

"In a choice between them(Spirits) and your family and home,which(who) would you side with,the spirits even to the detriment of time and cost to your family?"

No,Susma, I do not face such a dilemma. My kids are very special gifts from the spirits(God). I cannot possibly imagine me having to chose between them. Yes, kids deserve attention. Mine, get plenty of it and a lot of love,also. They are very artistically inclined,also, so we share a lot of quality time. They love to paint. They started with crayons,of course, but , they have taken to the paints at a very early age. They spend a lot of time pursuing their own interests(video games, outdoor games,etc.)
As far as my wife is concerned. Well, there is a little bit of conflict or disagreement when it comes to my 'crazy' pastimes. She's afraid of what the people might say,you know, if they happened to walk by my 'studio'. They have,on occassion,(her friends and family) and she's found it hard to explain to them about the diversity of the subjects. Besides my own work, I have the work of others,but since most of it is of a Hindu background, it seems fairly unusual to them. There are not many Hindus in my community. There are some, but, you don't see their art everywhere. There's a Hindu lady at a local jewelry store at the one of the malls. I once stopped by to buy a little something for my wife one valentine's day and while browsing I asked her if she was Hindu(she appeared to be). During our conversation I mentioned to her my 'connections'. She couldn't believe that one of the locals could have so much insight about her religion. She was more blown away when I told her that I didn't merely read about it. I mentioned to her almost everything from the beginning,including the swami,of course. For a while ,she seemed more interested in hearing about my unusual(for the locale)story than in making a sale. I haven't had the chance to go back to visit her. I know I'm straying away from the point,but I just felt I should mention this little side story.
Anyway, as far as me choosing between my wife and the spirits is concerned...
It would have to be the spirits,of course. I love my wife, but the spirits are not something that I will one day do without. I hope she stays with me for as long as possible,also.

And your last question;

About how the spirits give me the guidance(in my life and in the mundane affairs).

Most of my decisions in life I make after I consult with them. Actually, they are the ones setting things up as life unfolds before me. There are times when I am offered different choices. As far as the more mundane affairs of this world are concerned, yes, they do help me out a lot in those too. They are always giving me advice and helping me from behind the scenes,including the times when I'm working like on the cars. They give me a lot of ideas also,since most of my work is custom-related. When I'm working on my own cars(actually, most of them are special gifts from them) they like to share their ideas. They exercise a lot of creativity in many ways. They are not solemn entities that are merely concerned with religion,far from it. My life, I live with them. And I can also discern when they influence others. They are everywhere present sometimes.

I don't know if you've heard about the term 'synchronicity'. I know you must have, but I mean, as it regards spirit. Let me just post this up before I tell you a little bit about it.

stranger

[susmariosep]

I am sorry I don't know about synchronicity in connection with spirits. From the word itself I would imagine it has to do with something like getting two things done at the same time. Like if you enjoy your job and it earns good money as you enjoy doing your job, that would be a very good and welcome synchronicity: work and pleasure. Here I am writing this message and at the same time listening to the radio, that for me is also synchronicity. Tell me what you mean by synchronicity in regard to the spirits.

Before anything else, I can see that you are like any man or everyman and can get along smoothly with them and they should with you, and that is one good result from this topic, that people get to accept you and your spirits however they don't have your kind of access and most probably don't believe in them.

About our subject not being within the original topic of the thread here, if the powers here don't mind, I don't think we should be troubled by its location. People interested in our exchange will find us here and will get some education which I am also getting from you. Others who are not interested would already avoid us when they see our names in active posts listing. I am pursuing this theme with you, because you are an opportunity interviewee for my knowledge of special people with links to spirits.

I seem to sense of bit of irritation from your part with my questions here. Please don't be annoyed. My questions are sincere and honest and serious and I hope intelligent. And you have answered them honestly and frankly. Even though you might feel that I am making a mockery of you and your spirits, please do not give any attention to this feeling; otherwise how can people like me learn to accept people like you -- if you react to our questions with resentment?

So, please dissimulate or transcend your annoyance whatever, and let us continue with our exchange.

Some of my questions will appear to be intrusive or impertinent or for want of a better word, censorious or hyper-critical or leading to absurdity; but if you just give your attention to the substance and logic, they are not, but very valid, legitimate, and intelligent. So, more questions for you:

1. In an unavoidable choice, you say you would prefer the spirits to your wife and also by implication to your children; do you mean even if your wife and your children would suffer from the deprivation of time and devotion from you?

2. The spirits give you directives for life and in mundane matters like doing your livelihood activities faster, better, easier, and presumably with more returns in terms of revenues; what about if you were to go to the casinos, could they and would they help you to win money?

3. Have it occurred to you to get people like you to form a kind of society or say a club to exchange notes, and even to get together where two or more of you can simultaneously and concertedly deal with one or more spirits?

4. Do you keep records of your contacts with the spirits? I suggest that you undertake this task, it will be most useful for people like me.

Thanks again for your time and attention. And honestly I would like to be able to contact spirits like you do; but frankly speaking I am a bit afraid, because they might end up controlling me -- and I am one guy who is very independent whatever my limited intelligence and experience of life, and very touchy about having to listen to others, people or spirits, telling me what is better to know, to think, and to act, or generally to employ my natural-born faculties, the mental and the physical ones according to their dictates.

Susma

[stranger]

Susma,

No Susma, I am not bothered by your questions. And there is absolutely no question of resentment whatsoever. I know you are just curious. What I'm not sure about is; I am not sure about whether or not this may be getting a little too boring for others. I don't want to take up too much space here in this place. The only thing that is allaying those fears is the fact that lately the posting in these forums seems to have slowed down a bit. I have visited other forums and they seem actually dead,or at a standstill for days on end,which I know is worse in a way.
We're supposed to be talking about religion and it seems that we're straying from the subject quite a bit. That is why I asked for you to start some new threads. Actually, it's not religion that I wanna get into, exactly. Maybe something like the nature of the hereafter,or something like that. I know the goals of the people of this institute is to work for the achievement of life extension and maybe physical immortality. The idea that I want to get across to those working to achieve those very goals is that even if they don't succeed, they should know that they have something to 'fall back on', even if they're not aware of it right now. In other words, everyone is spiritually eternal,so, even if one should die, you still hang on to the main thing,which is not only the soul itself,but a soul with concsiousness and awareness. Also, for those preoccupied with this current physical life, if you are happy with it and the image you possess,then be assured that you will be allowed to maintain that same physical image in the hereafter,even though the body will be made of a more etheric substance. For those who are getting old,you will be given the chance to reverse it to your ideal look. Dying is not an easy thing,especially the effect it has on others,but once one is over there,it is really not that bad,on the contrary, it is at least a hundred times better. The consciousness is not only enhanced back to its original state,which is almost unlimited,but the actual awareness of knowledge is also unlimited. And for those with an endless amount of curiousity about themselves, they will be allowed to visit the halls of the Akashic records. There you will be able to review your own personal history( all previous lifetimes). After endless exploration in and around the different levels or planes, one will come again to the point of whether or not one will want ot venture again into this physical plane,and experiment with new endeavors.

I know all this talk is nothing new,and I know everyone wants proof. To those I say this; That is what I am working on. I am working on personal matters,but at the same time, I am doing all I can to present some type of concrete evidence.

O.K. , Susma, back to your questions. The above info is meant for you also. There is nothing wrong with desiring physical immortality. I guess, it is instinctual. But one should also have the knowledge and security that if we don't achieve that goal 'on time' we are not doomed. That there is a 'safety blanket' or 'emergency chute' is an understatement. And it is available to all. So relax, and work on it without being so pressured that you're actually not enjoying life right now. A life of work without play, is not too much of a life.

1. Answer to question number one. No Susma, I don't know about you,but to me my children and my wife are not the same. I said that the spirits have no intention of having me decide between them or the children. Actually, the children are like an 'anchor' for me. The spirits are not dumb. They sent us the children before they gave me some tests that would drive most anyone to suicide. I am not one enamored with this material world,not by any chance. What keeps me here 'well-grounded' are my children. Don't think that because I converse with even Gods, that I am living a life free of pain or anguish. They say it won't go on forever,but I am still undergoing some very severe psychological and physical 'testing'. It's just a forging of the spirit. You were saying that sometimes you wish you could 'talk' to some spirit. Well, there are some that come around to play. The ones that I deal with, and the uncommon discipline that I have had to endure, I don't reccommend it to anyone. I'll share the story freely, but I am not implying that that is the path for everyone.

2. Could they help me win some money on the casinos , or such?
I'm pretty sure they can. Right now,I'll be honest with you, financially I am in hell. I have work, but I am not a beast of burden. This is one of their favorite ways of keeping me 'in check'--that is, it is a way for them to keep me down to earth. There are times when the budget is balanced and there's some money left over for a while, I just 'float' away when I'm in meditation. It is almost effortless to get to that state that I talk about--of being in trance. It is like a high. You don't wanna come down and it is almost impossible to go to sleep. But then again, when times are tough, I don't even wanna get out of bed. The only thing that helps is that I can't get to work late. I work out of the garage in my house. They assure me that I won't work at what I'm doing right now for ever. They have something in store, so I'm hanging in there, as best as I can.

3. Definitely, yes. That is indeed one of my personal goals.

4. Susma, what you learned in school, did you throw it away? This is my school and my take in life. Several of the spirits have suggested on many occassions , the writing of at least one book. I intend to do so when I am done with my paintings because I want my book to have illustrations. But I want to do it until I have the money to pay for the publishing of the first batch, which I plan on giving away to libraries or parties interested in it. Many people write books and make money. Even books that deal with the subjects that I deal with. I,myself, have bought dozens in my time, but I don't feel that I want to do it for that reason. I'll be honest, when I was younger , I thought that it could be a way out of my financial doldrums, but lately, I have come to the realization that it might be a sin,almost, to sell my story. After all, it is the knowledge of something that we all are a part of. Some people,here on earth, have suggested that it is not the money,but the principle. Of showing your former classmates that you did something with your life. I don't know. Everything that I do is constantly monitored, so I don't feel that I can change things out of my own will. Whatever the future brings me,so be it. For now, if I should need money for an emergency,
I still have a few antique automobiles that people have offered to buy from me.

later,
stranger

[stranger]

Susma,

I know I already answered your question about you wanting to contact spirits and I said I wouldn't recommend it. That is true. There's a chance of ending up contacting the dark forces,which is why you're afraid. I don't blame you. It is not a game. And the ones that have a good intention,well, they ask for something in return,which in itself can be a burden,anyway.

Play it safe. Read all the books you can get a hold of, on the subject--the afterlife,etc., . The knowledge that you derive from them should be more than enough to prepare you for a safe 'flight' and a safe landing,when the time comes,hopefully some fifty or sixty years from now.

I wanted to share with the fellow aspiring immortalists here, including you--there are some that have achieved the closest thing to physical immortality. These 'elite' ones have been able to dissappear from this world and have landed safely on the other side. That is the reason why I don't think working or striving for physical immortality might be futile. Also, if the planet does ascend,like dozens of 'prognosticators' have predicted, it will almost be a done deal. It is said that from the coming fourth dimension of the planet it will be possible not only to ascend to the higher material planets but also to the spiritual world itself. I guess, only time will tell. They say we will know for sure within the next eight to ten years,which is not much really.

later,
stranger

[susmariosep]

Dear Stranger:

Thanks for your generous time and work in writing to me to answer my questions. Anyone else might think that I am being 'extremely rude' (See that thread on friendliness in math terms by Marc Geddess).

I am actually a learner here, I take several others here for teachers, and that includes you. Very often some people here think that I am being offensive, just like in schools teachers often get the wrong idea that some pupils are being troublesome when they are just being inquisitive about things the teachers are dealing on.

When I start a thread usually it is in order to learn more about a topic, or to see whether my take on it is sensible. For example, with Buddhism I give the impression of bashing it; actually I am trying to see if people here who know Buddhism more can answer my questions to my satisfaction. I will be back to that thread on Buddha and his if any original thoughts, I have not yet finished with that thread. Everytime I am through with my threads I put in some parting words to inform everyone that I am through with a thread but others can continue if they prefer.

About my questions to you in regard to your communings with spirits I am about finished. And my broad conclusion to the enrichment of my learning is that there are people like you for one, and maybe Buddha, and Jesus, and Mohammad, and Joseph Smith, and even that founder of Scientology -- what's his name? are similar people like you.

They have experiences which people like me, the greatest number of the generality of people, do not have. But those experiences are genuine, they have existence in a very real way.

And people having such experiences like you, who can make a living and be depended upon to support other people like their family, and they don't get in trouble with their neighbors and certainly not with the law, are deserving of all the entitlement of nobility which I would grant to them, at least from me.


Just one last question: Tell me such experiences and such spirits you experience, are they essentially within your mind, like dreams, or they are also outside your mind.


Remember I am always a learner here. If you want to discuss something with me for my man-in-the-street views and insights, then please start a thread to that purpose.

Susma

[mike]

Stranger wrote:

I know the goals of the people of this institute is to work for the achievement of life extension and maybe physical immortality. The idea that I want to get across to those working to achieve those very goals is that even if they don't succeed, they should know that they have something to 'fall back on', even if they're not aware of it right now. In other words, everyone is spiritually eternal,so, even if one should die, you still hang on to the main thing,which is not only the soul itself,but a soul with concsiousness and awareness. Also, for those preoccupied with this current physical life, if you are happy with it and the image you possess,then be assured that you will be allowed to maintain that same physical image in the hereafter,even though the body will be made of a more etheric substance. For those who are getting old,you will be given the chance to reverse it to your ideal look. Dying is not an easy thing,especially the effect it has on others,but once one is over there,it is really not that bad,on the contrary, it is at least a hundred times better.

Stranger,

How successful do you feel you have been so far in getting across to those on this forum who are seeking physcial immortality that they have "something to 'fall back on'" if they are not successful? What further things do you feel you could say or do to to try to convince them?

It may be that some here are seeking physical immortality specifically for the very reason that they don't believe that there is anything to fall back on in terms of an afterlife. And it seems that many are making a leap of faith, not to belief in an afterlife, but to cryonics as the thing that is there to fall back on if they are not initially successful in their quest for physical immortality. I would think that for confidence in an afterlife to replace cryonics, posters here would need some pretty solid, tangible evidence.

Just some thoughts.

Mike

[stranger]

Mike,

How've you been? I'm doing alright.

Well, actually, I hadn't given much thought to those seeking those objectives. I have been too concerned with the 'religious' minded ones here. On this last post, I just thought I should share my thoughts about the actual programs and main objectives of this institute. I may sound crazy,but to me, it is like sharing the good news of some inheritance you all have coming without ever having had an inkling of some 'old unknown relative' who left you his possessions. Or something to that effect. I can see just how much you all treasure your very lives and yourselves. I don't see nothing wrong with that. There have been times when I myself was so happy with myself that I'd wanted to live almost forever. I don't think it is possibble to enjoy this world if one is not happy with oneself. The swami that I talk about used to say that there were only two kinds of people in this world--the ones that came to enjoy and the ones that came to suffer. At first I used to kinda agree with him,but as I went about doing my time of penance imposed by both him and the second teacher(my brother), I figured that it cannot possibly be that simple. I think that some suffer more than others,and enjoy less, but , I think there's a lot of middle ground. He used to attribute that to the personal karma of every individual person. As far as having been successful in convincing anyone, like I said, I hadn't thought of it.

"What further things do you feel you could say or do to try to convince them?"

I don't know. I don't wanna say much,actually. I don't wanna start sounding like a preacher( if I already don't already have). Like I said, I ,personally, have nothing against the ones working or striving to achieve those results.

"It may be that some here are seeking physical immortality for the very reason that they don't believe that there is anything to fall back on in terms of an afterlife?"
I understand that. We were not born with the knowledge or awareness of the 'proclaimed' afterlife. I understand that the desire of prolonging life is universally instinctual. I,myself, wasn't always aware of the possibility. From my extended amount of reading I developed a belief in it,but I was granted too much direct evidence by my two initial spiritual guides that accepting the reality of it was only natural.

I've given some thought to the practice of cryonics. I don't see anything wrong with that. I wouldn't mind being suspended in such a state forever,even if I were never resucitated or reawakened. Yes, I have wondered some about whether it'll ever be possible for the departed soul to 're-enter' his former body. I think ,sometimes, that it will be possible. I have read much about the 'walk-ins'. These are 'discarnate' beings that have taken over the bodies of people that didn't wanna be around any longer. There's a lot of mention of beings from other star-planets doing the same thing here on Earth. It sounds crazy,but then again, there is so much mystery in this world that it just might be going on.

"I would think that for confidence in an afterlife to replace cryonics, posters here would need some prety solid, tangible evidence."

Well, actually, it is not my intention to discourage anyone from such practice."
And as far as presenting some tangible evidence, well, I am doing my best to achieve such goal. I'm still working on it. In the end, I would also love to have the satisfaction of saying," I told you so".

later,

stranger

[stranger]

Susma,

Thank you for the undeserved 'nobility' you have granted. Currently, it is not difficult to maintain a family life and also to engage in the spiritual affairs that I mention. I have always stressed that the first four years of my spiritual life were the most difficult and the most strenous. Back then, I wasn't allowed to have or even think about women. I was allowed to work,but only minimanlly. There were times when I wasn't allowed to work at all. There were many things that were 'prohibited' for me to engage in or to practice. Even my foodstuffs were prety restrictive. In my work, candy apple and pearl paints(my specialty) were out of reach. Actually, all custom work was temporarily 'disqualified' from my work engagements. I was allowed to do dirty and drab body work. And that was just so that I could have a few bucks. I wasn't married, so it didn't bother me much. Simple luxuries like shaving and cutting my hair were allowed every few years. It was such a dreary existence during those early years that I often wondered if they had actually done me a favor by having brought me back to this life. Nowadays, it ain't so bad.

Your last question.
"Tell me, are such experiences or spirits you experience, are they essentially within your mind, like dreams, or are they also outside your mind?"

Well, since the spirits have their own particular existence, they are clearly outside of my mind. But they have the uncanny ability to get inside of my mind. They do not miss one single thought. They might dismiss a lot of them, but keeping track of me is not such a difficult affair for them. For them, telepathy is absolute. For them, it is not a 'hit-and-miss' procedure.

The experiences are both internal and external. The 'power dreams' are the dreams of revelation. And these are mostly 'infused' by the higher Deities. The 'mid-range dreams are the ones transmitted or developed by the lower demigods. They are not too concerned with the laws of religion. I haven't mentioned it before,but the number of demigods that I have come in contact with at one time or another is close to thirty or forty. Some just dropped by for a day or two, and some still keep in touch. There is always someone around,everyday. I have mentioned one Archangel. Besides him, I also often hear from the Archangel Michael and the Archangel Gabriel.

How I observe their wanderings is easy. They 'hover' over people. They practice
the 'walk-in' method very frequently. There are times when I 'sense' them within my mind also. I am a receiver of telepathic messages also. It is something similar to clairvoyance. And I don't necessarily have to be in a deep trance-like state. It is not like I am still in the learning stages. The Deities and the demigods use a lot of the 'media' or avenues the two original teachers perfected. And like I said, they each have their personal symbols, colors ,and even numeric designations,so as not to be confused with the others.

Remember, it is the demigods the Hindus talk about that I am referring to. I am not talking about Greek gods or others. The SunGod is the same one the Egyptians know as RA.

I know it sounds unreal. I probably wouldn't have believed it from someone else ,either. But that's the way it is. One thing's for sure, those Hindus are not dumb. When and where they ever learned it themselves I often wonder.

later,
stranger

P.S. Yes, Susma, I might start a thread or two some time in the future. I'll also get back to you on the concept of synchronicity, as far as spirit is concerned.

[susmariosep]

I hope you don't mind my still further questions, after saying in my preceding post of having a last question. If you were argumentative you would accuse me of being contradictory. But our conversation has reached a level beyond being argumentative. Glad that Mike has dropped in with an input. Now, if only Macdog would also join us, then we all would have a really enriching exchange. I of course being the learner.

The first thing that I want to congratulate you about is that you have no worry about death; in fact you tell us that after death things would be better. That thing that troubles a lot of people, the reason of this ImmInst website, honestly and frankly, is death.

I said in several posts in this message board that for me immortality research should enlist the genius and skills of engineers and technicians, not chemists, or more correctly, not biologists and doctors of medicine essentially.

Work on a memory machine that can exchange messages with humans using all the memory data of a person, deceased or alive, and capable of acquiring new memory data, and designed to manipulate memory data. There is your immortality, rebirth, reincarnation, resurrection. If speech from a machine is difficult to device, then even just text communication as we are doing here, is more than enough and even more practical, and easier to invent.

While working on such a machine, or waiting for such a machine to arrive, honestly and frankly -- I can't think of another phrase more apt, I wouldn't mind getting to know and converse with the spirits that you are in contact with, because such an acquaintance does assuage the worry over death, and provides an assurance of existence after death.


Here are my further questions, and I want you to know that honestly and frankly I have not learned so much about spirits until I met you.

1. Is there a risk of too much time with the spirits, that one's mundane life is compromised? For example, the typical guy has to do a livelihood activity, put food on the table, get the kids to school, give love, attention, and service to the wife, and also similar things like attending to the leaking faucets in the house: would such activities be adversely affected with too much communings with spirits?

2. Can you control your contacts with the spirits, when and on what areas, and where, and how you want to relate with them?

3. This request might not go very well with you and some people here, but it is an honest one from yours truly: Please ask the spirits to rewrite the initiating post of Marc Geddes in his thread on something like friendliness in mathematic terms (See http://www.imminst.o...=0&#entry47376)

4. Moses went up Mount Sinai, talked with Jehovah or Jahweh, and came down with the Ten Commandments, and also a host of other injunctions about food and washing of hands and clean and unclean things. Can you give me some directives for life and man's destiny, from these spirits you are in contact with, which I understand also include Jehovah, Jahweh, and Jesus, and Buddha.


Again, please don't see any mockery in my questions. My concern is always to see how contacts with spirits and such similar talents of privileged people and such phenomenons, can be related to both the mundane needs of daily life, and also the broad perspectives of human existence and man's travel to his destiny whatever.


Susma

[stranger]

Susma,

How's it going?

To tell you the truth, I find it odd, that most everyone here is so unfamiliar with
the subject of the afterlife. I guess, everyone's been too busy with their studies all this time. Still, it's not like it hasn't been talked about more openly(through the media) in the last twenty years. There's hundreds of books out there,written by people who have experienced it one way or another. I guess, some people are apprehensive about exploring new frontiers.

Your questions.

1. "Is there a risk of too much time with the spirits?"

No, Susma, it's not like I have to avoid doing my chores. They can find me wherever I am at any hour of the day. Or they'll wait for me at the end of the day.
Right now, I don't have any obligations with them. There is a certain and significant test that is still pending,but I'm glad that its execution is not up to me. So, in the mean time, I am doing whatever I want,besides working. Yes, I maintain contact ,but only for updates or for shooting the breeze. Not all of my contacts are the authoritative kind. Like I said before, the demigods are not concerned with my duties. They visit me like a friend would.

3. This is an unusual request,but I'm afraid it is not possible. I don't communicate with the spirits through automatic wiriting.

4."Can you give me some directives for life and man's destiny?"

My dear Susma, isn't this what I have been doing lately? As far as giving you clear-cut directives, I don't know, you'd have to be more specific. Anyway, I think you're living your life fairly normal. As far as man's destiny is concerned,well, I don't know exactly what's gonna happen in the future. The glimpses that I get mostly pertain to me , personally. Isn't it worth something, knowing that death is not the end,but a transition into a higher nature?

later,

stranger

[susmariosep]

. . . snip . . .

4."Can you give me some directives for life and man's destiny?"

My dear Susma, isn't this what I have been doing lately?  As far as giving you clear-cut directives, I don't know, you'd have to be more specific. Anyway, I think you're living your life fairly normal. As far as man's destiny is concerned,well, I don't know exactly what's gonna happen in the future. The glimpses that I get mostly pertain to me , personally.  Isn't it worth something, knowing that death is not the end,but a transition into a higher nature?

. . . snip . . .

My idea is to find out how the spirits can help us with a host of mundane matters to make life more convenient to us all.

You remember in some earlier exchange of posts in another thread, I was saying that if the spirits can help me to find a small screw I dropped on the floor, that would be great.

You felt then that I was making fun of the spirits.

That is one thing I have against philosophical writers, they go on and on into abstract concepts, deeper and deeper; but all existence and all life is concrete, like locating a missing screw dropped on the floor.

If I may, then, could you give me some instances in life where the spirits saved you from some physical or moral disasters.

For example, there was that donkey or ass in the Old Testament who told a guy that he won't budge because an angel or demon was it? stood ready to cut off the man's head with the next step ahead. That's for physical disaster.

For moral disaster, what about telling you not to place all your savings into a particular qet rich quick scheme which is a pyramid scam already at its terminal history, even though you have already made money from earlier placements?

Very often religions are into what might be called in Spanish 'consuelo de bobo' (consolation of the dunce), but when it comes to the here and now and this actual need, there is a lot of heeing and hawing, into abstracts like "in His time". What is your impression in this regard, about the spirits?

Susma

[sorn]

A person quoting "de sade" shouldn't be surprised of "personal attacks" neither should the admins of this board. Just my opinion on the flaming above.

EDIT: Lol, Stranger is clearly the troll of this board. Stranger, take a chill pill. Although I don't agree with the zealotism in some people here against religion, especially since this is a relgion board. Why not keep the reliogion part within the religion boards and the religion-flaming, religion bashing and non-religion (athiesm for example) within athiesm boards or a naturalist philosophy or science board.

You wouldn't put a fanatic islamist and a fanatic zionist within the same room would you? Keep these two subjects seperate please.. it's almost the same case here. I've seen this from so many other forums.. the religion threads are most often nothing but flaming boards.

Athiesm is a lifestyle and/or philosophy. It's not religion.

[Karomesis]

Sorn, I am unoffended by strangers remarks, I never in fact implied otherwise. I started this thread as somewhat of an instigation, to religious peoples and their belief in a magical, otherworldly, and most in the know would say imaginary divinity. However the thread evolved into a genetic mutation of the original textual DNA structure. [:o]

[susmariosep]

What is a troll? In another forum a lady poster called me a pompous ass for being a troll, and put me on her block this poster list. And what was my fault? to exchange views with her that if paederasty or is it paedophia? is endemic in the Catholic priesthood, then abolish the male Catholic priesthood, and go for women's ordination.

Welcome, Sorn; and also Karo, welcome back.

Karo was initiating a discussion of de Sade and his atheism, but went on an indefinite leave of absence owing to the epithetic outbursts of Stranger.

I was looking forward to learn more about de Sade and his sadistic sex taste and how this might be related to his atheism or the other way around. Too bad, Karo left before I got to learn anything about my interest.

Stranger is a sincere believer in God and in gods and goddesses. He gets angry because he thinks that some people are mocking him and his spirit guides, like Jahweh, Jehovah (Jahweh's brother), Buddha, even Jesus -- but no, not Mohammad, and maybe some Hindu divinities as well.

He was very mad at me, thinking that I was making fun of him and his spirit guides. So also there was Macdog, another believer in spirits but of a different, shall we call it, school? Mac got very angry at me also. But Mac is into philosophy, and can write with dense language on matters philosophical. Mac is no longer in this section of religion. NOt that I know of...

Mike is a poster here who is the most somber and in a way scientifical unbiased, always waiting for evidence one way or another. He is very helpful for an unbiased assessment of my concerns. And I would ask for his opinion about my inquiry trends.

What about myself? I describe myself as a postgraduate Catholic and possessed of a sense of religion which religion for me must be rational, provisional, and optional. So, I am a theist, an atheist, an agnostic, a deist, and what have you, all at the same time. Impossible? Very possible, I assure you; because when we are into such issues, unlike when you have to be gasping for breath or not gasping for breath, one can be of opposite directions all at the same time, even in contradictory positions.

Sorn, you mention often about bashing of religion, and that you want to read about religion, not about bashing of religion. May I then invite you to tell us what for you is religion, and when is one into bashing of religion? Better still, what is it to bash some thought system?

When I first met Stranger I could not believe that he was into contacts with spirits, and what kinds of spirits indeed? Now, I can accept that his experiences are real, and even outside his mind -- as he explicitly told me so.

It's like this: I myself don't have experiences of and with spirits; but that doesn't mean that others can't haven't either. Then another thing is that Stranger can write very intelligently and very grammatically and sytlistically legibly, better than a lot of posters who are into philosophy here. And Stranger is a member of this very noble class of humans, a dependable. What is a dependable? One on whom dependents depend for their living.

The principle is namely the following, for the acceptance of the existence of spirits and the existence of communings with them by people who do claim to have such communings: Conscious human existence is in the last analysis all about experience; so if a human experiences spirits, and there many of them who do, then the spirits exist for them and for us with no experience but indirectly.

The thing to do now is how to systematize the accounts of such experiences. And that is what I am trying to do with the experiences of Stranger and also, but he is not here with us for the present, I refer to Macdog -- maybe on unannounced and indefinite leave of absence? -- asking questions addressed to Stranger as to the what kinds of spirits he communes with, their habits, their schedules, and their peculiar likes and dislikes, and similar items of inquiry, just as when we come across a different people, maybe some so far undiscovered tribal community.

At this moment I am trying to get from Stranger what are the concrete advantages of communings with spirits, and specifically into the advantages of convenience in the affairs of daily life, like as I mentioned how to find a small screw one dropped accidentally on the floor, or where to find what I spent for $15 which I could not account for after a shopping trip.

Welcome again, Sorn. And I hope to read your definition, your very own of course, for religion, not some draft you borrow from some source; and also your very own meaning of bashing.

Susma