34 replies to this topic

[scottknl]

It's been bothering me lately that Jack LaLanne died from pneumonia at age 96. He tried to optimize his lifestyle for health and what he thought was longevity, but was done in by his own immune system. It's one of the leading causes of death for the elderly.

http://en.wikipedia..../Cytokine_storm

When the immune system is fighting pathogens, cytokines signal immune cells such as T-cells and macrophages to travel to the site of infection. In addition, cytokines activate those cells, stimulating them to produce more cytokines.[2] Normally, this feedback loop is kept in check by the body. However, in some instances, the reaction becomes uncontrolled, and too many immune cells are activated in a single place. The precise reason for this is not entirely understood but may be caused by an exaggerated response when the immune system encounters a new and highly pathogenic invader. Cytokine storms have potential to do significant damage to body tissues and organs. If a cytokine storm occurs in the lungs, for example, fluids and immune cells such as macrophages may accumulate and eventually block off the airways, potentially resulting in death.

This is what I think happened, but I'd like to hear other people's opinions too.

The first lesson I learn is that exercise alone will not prevent immune system aging, or even really slow it down. Secondly, mild restriction of calories and elimination of junk food doesn't work effectively to improve immune system health. Another 20-30 years or so of calorie restriction experience should tell us if further optimization of diet will be effective.

One idea might be to wipe out some of the immune system periodically thru life, and then re-seed with stem cells that don't have memory of past infections. Or could a person store a sample of stem cells for a few decades, then culture them later to give an immune system health boost?
Further ideas? Has anyone run across some research that might point to a potential solution?

[niner]

The older you get, the harder it will be to survive pneumonia. I think your ideas about restoring the immune system are on the right track, and I've heard of people thinking about using stem cells, allografts IIRC, for this purpose. But pneumonia also kills young people. Certainly people with weakened immune systems, like AIDS patients, are in greater danger, but even with a normal immune system one could still die. There is another protective system that is also important; the mucosal barrier function. This can prevent pathogens from ever gaining a toehold, so it's quite valuable. It's also fairly easy to damage. Any insult to the mucosal membranes will disturb barrier function. Probably the most damaging are simple viral infections. Even after the infection has cleared, it can take 6-8 weeks for the barrier function to return to normal. Untreated allergies are another source of irritation, as well as exposure to noxious gases and particulates. Clean air is good. I don't know any way to improve barrier function, other than avoiding insults to the lungs. Topical anti-inflammatories like inhaled steroids might be helpful, though they also bring about immunosuppression, so there's a tradeoff there that might argue for limited use, like for a period following the insult, but not permanently.

There's one other way to avoid dying of pneumonia- get treated before it's too late. Most young people who die of pneumonia could probably be saved if they got antibiotics and supportive care soon enough. I came this close (holds thumb and forefinger together) to dying of pneumonia about five years ago. If I hadn't gone to the ER in the middle of the night, I'm pretty sure I would have died. As it was, I almost died in the hospital. It was an extremely gnarly pneumonia; Legionnaire's disease, along with Acute Respiratory Distress Syndrome (a cytokine storm, essentially). I was in the ICU for five weeks; they told me it was "a miracle" that I survived.

[leha]

It's a pretty complicated subject, with no clear answers. A lot of research has emerged recently implicating omega 3/6 ratio imbalance as a possible source of poor immune control. I don't think you necessarily need to get rid of part of your immune function (and I doubt you could). What you want is healthy immune function. Your cytokines should be properly regulated, undergo apoptosis when they are supposed to, and be generally under the management of a high-functioning immune control system (T cells, etc.).

Antibiotics can actually be the target of a malfunctioning immune system--especially, I suspect, when consumed chronically at subtherapeutic doses, as is the case with most non-vegans (unless they are careful to eat only organic meats and wild seafood). Also, both macrolide antibiotics and corticosteroids (like Prednisone) act to suppress neutrophils while they are in your system, which means they could be making the problem worse once you remove them (because the T cells and other checkpoints responsible for monitoring the release and control of neutrophils may be exaggeratedly upregulated in response to drug-induced suppression.

Mild CR might not fix immune problems, but I'm convinced a healthy (optimally nutritive AND organic) diet will go a long way. Especially if you get enough of two things: omega 3s and potassium iodide.

(FYI apologies in advance for not having any sources to cite in this discussion. I did the research on this topic mostly over a year ago, and did not record my sources, because it was just for my own info.)

[enfield]

I agree it is a pretty complicated subject, with still a lot that is unknown.

Immune system aging seems to be a separate issue from optimizing immune system function. All I know about it is that in your 50's or there about your thymus' production of new immune cells declines rather sharply. Solutions to this might include restorative and regenerative therapies, etc., but I don't know much about this, nor where we are with it at the moment.

Cytokine storms would be, on the other hand, markers of a dysfunctional immune system. This is a problem whose prevalence is higher in industrialized countries, meaning it's a problem that's recently arisen (unlike immune system aging).

Therapies like this one http://en.wikipedia....minthic_therapy, which is theoretically justified by the hygiene hypothesis, seem to be showing promise for treating a wide array of autoimmune diseases.

I wouldn't be so sure a cytokine storm caused his death. There is one type of pneumonia, however, http://en.wikipedia....hilic_pneumonia, which is characterized by what you might call a cytokine storm.
But In general I think the lungs are just particularly delicate - to bacterial infection, robust immune response, viruses, etc. I don't see how we could conclude without knowing more about his pneumonia which contributed the most to his death.

[scottknl]

Thanks Niner and Leha!

On a personal level, my mostly vegan organic CR diet should be pretty good for Omega-3/6 balance and avoiding stray antibiotics in the food supply, but I have a low tolerance for salt and likely my iodine levels are sub-par. My wife refuses to let me add seaweed to my diet for increased iodine because of the pollution in coastal sea waters where iodine is farmed/collected. Given the recent developments in Fukushima, Japan this might be a wise move. I guess I'll have to rely on iodine supplements.

As for getting medical care sooner rather than later, I'm getting more reluctant to visit hospitals the older I get. With medical mistakes being a top 10 cause of death (#4?), my preference is to stay away as much as possible. I've hit the point in my CR practice where I'm getting very few (if any) infections.

In general I'm hearing that a healthy diet that includes optimized essential fatty acids and iodine levels is about the best you can do long term to protect your immune system. If one should contract a bug, hit it hard and soon to keep it from developing to near-fatal or fatal experience.

[Logan]

I can't even remember the last time I had the flu, and certainly do not fear dying from pneumonia at a young age. Unless there are good anti-aging therapies when I'm in my 90s, and I'm biologically closer to 70, I might not be too concerned about pneumonia even then, because I'm going to dye soon anyway.

[niner]

My wife refuses to let me add seaweed to my diet for increased iodine because of the pollution in coastal sea waters where iodine is farmed/collected. Given the recent developments in Fukushima, Japan this might be a wise move. I guess I'll have to rely on iodine supplements.

As for getting medical care sooner rather than later, I'm getting more reluctant to visit hospitals the older I get. With medical mistakes being a top 10 cause of death (#4?), my preference is to stay away as much as possible. I've hit the point in my CR practice where I'm getting very few (if any) infections.

In general I'm hearing that a healthy diet that includes optimized essential fatty acids and iodine levels is about the best you can do long term to protect your immune system. If one should contract a bug, hit it hard and soon to keep it from developing to near-fatal or fatal experience.

I think some seaweed is contaminated. I just don't see a need for it when potassium iodide is clean, cheap, and you know exactly how much elemental iodine you're getting. I use the NOW Foods 225 mcg tablets. I think it improved my mood, but I haven't been sick lately either. I don't think medical mistakes is as high as #4, but whatever it is, it includes outpatient medication errors, which are a big part of it. Don't make the mistake that Stephen Martin (may he Rest In Peace) at Grouppe Kurosawa did- if you have a bacterial pneumonia and things aren't going well, see a doctor. I'm glad to hear you're healthy though, and hope you stay that way. I agree about hitting bugs hard and soon. If I'd started antibiotics a day sooner, I probably would have had a very different outcome.

[niner]

I can't even remember the last time I had the flu, and certainly do not fear dying from pneumonia at a young age. Unless there are good anti-aging therapies when I'm in my 90s, and I'm biologically closer to 70, I might not be too concerned about pneumonia even then, because I'm going to dye soon anyway.

Lots of guys color their hair now. It's not a life or death thing...

[InquilineKea]

Just stay away from other people and order all your groceries online (from Amazon Fresh or something)

By the time you get to that age, I'm pretty sure that working-at-home and online-grocery-ordering will both be extremely common

[Matt]

take AllicinMax everyday and Beta glucan. Beta glucan is really effective in studies in mice and humans very lethal infections including anthrax. Survive with Beta glucan goes up to 100% if given before anthrax infection, and 90% if given 1 day after. So it is a fast and quite effective way for elderly people with immune system problems.

"WGP beta glucan for 1 week prior to infection, survival increased from 50% to 100%; therapeutic administration of oral WGP beta glucan for 10 days postinfection increased survival from 30% up to 90% in treatment groups."
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/12827062

[Matt]

Infectious Disease Research Yeast Beta 1,3/1,6 Glucan
http://www.beta13dgl...seabstracts.pdf take a look at this!

[InquilineKea]

Also, when you get to your 90s, maybe live like the Boy in the bubble?

http://www.wired.com...a/2006/04/70622
http://en.wikipedia....y_in_the_bubble

[scottknl]

Matt, belated thanks for the beta-glucan info. I note that http://en.wikipedia....iki/Beta-glucan tells me:

One of the most common sources of β(1,3)D-glucan for supplement use is derived from the cell wall of baker’s yeast ...
However, β(1,3)(1,4)-glucans are also extracted from the bran of some grains such as oats, barley, rye and wheat. The β(1,3)D-glucans from yeast are often insoluble. Those extracted from grains tend to be both soluble and insoluble. Other sources include some types of seaweed, and various species of mushrooms such as Reishi, Shitake and Maitake.

β-glucans are known as "biological response modifiers" because of their ability to activate the immune system.

Seems to lessen the chances of infection and supercharge the immune system. A timely topic now that everyone's starting to cough and sneeze.

I wonder if the lower inflammation rates in vegetarians make symptoms less fatal compared to meat/egg eaters? Anyone know any prospective epidemiology studies like this?

[TheFountain]

The older you get, the harder it will be to survive pneumonia. I think your ideas about restoring the immune system are on the right track, and I've heard of people thinking about using stem cells, allografts IIRC, for this purpose. But pneumonia also kills young people. Certainly people with weakened immune systems, like AIDS patients, are in greater danger, but even with a normal immune system one could still die. There is another protective system that is also important; the mucosal barrier function. This can prevent pathogens from ever gaining a toehold, so it's quite valuable. It's also fairly easy to damage. Any insult to the mucosal membranes will disturb barrier function. Probably the most damaging are simple viral infections. Even after the infection has cleared, it can take 6-8 weeks for the barrier function to return to normal. Untreated allergies are another source of irritation, as well as exposure to noxious gases and particulates. Clean air is good. I don't know any way to improve barrier function, other than avoiding insults to the lungs. Topical anti-inflammatories like inhaled steroids might be helpful, though they also bring about immunosuppression, so there's a tradeoff there that might argue for limited use, like for a period following the insult, but not permanently.

There's one other way to avoid dying of pneumonia- get treated before it's too late. Most young people who die of pneumonia could probably be saved if they got antibiotics and supportive care soon enough. I came this close (holds thumb and forefinger together) to dying of pneumonia about five years ago. If I hadn't gone to the ER in the middle of the night, I'm pretty sure I would have died. As it was, I almost died in the hospital. It was an extremely gnarly pneumonia; Legionnaire's disease, along with Acute Respiratory Distress Syndrome (a cytokine storm, essentially). I was in the ICU for five weeks; they told me it was "a miracle" that I survived.

What were the symptoms you were ignoring up until the moment you finally decided to take yourself to the hospital? And do you have any idea what the cause of your Pneumonia was?

[TheFountain]

Anyway, some other good supplements for immune function are Astragalus root, vitamin C, zinc, etc.

Lung cleansers like NAC and licorice root might help as a preventive measure as well.

And of course resveratrol is an all around amazing supplement. I imagine it has some immune system effecting properties that are aching to be discovered,

Avoiding cigarette smoke, both first and second hand is another strategy to consider. Most younger people who succumb to pneumonia tend to be smokers, from what I know. Their Carboxy-hemoglobin levels tend to be around 5% or more or so at a constant rate (the typical COHB levels for non-smokers is between 1.5 and 2.5%).

[niner]

There's one other way to avoid dying of pneumonia- get treated before it's too late. Most young people who die of pneumonia could probably be saved if they got antibiotics and supportive care soon enough. I came this close (holds thumb and forefinger together) to dying of pneumonia about five years ago. If I hadn't gone to the ER in the middle of the night, I'm pretty sure I would have died. As it was, I almost died in the hospital. It was an extremely gnarly pneumonia; Legionnaire's disease, along with Acute Respiratory Distress Syndrome (a cytokine storm, essentially). I was in the ICU for five weeks; they told me it was "a miracle" that I survived.

What were the symptoms you were ignoring up until the moment you finally decided to take yourself to the hospital? And do you have any idea what the cause of your Pneumonia was?

I wasn't exactly ignoring the symptoms. One day I was perfectly healthy, but that night I felt like I might be getting a cold. The next morning, I woke up feeling awful- I was maybe a little nauseous, as I recall, and very light headed. At that point, there was a red herring; my son had just gotten over a case of strep throat, and initially that's what I thought I had. I would have gone to the doctor then, but it was a sunday, so I figured I'd just wait til monday. I spent the whole day in bed, and since I never got up, I didn't know how bad I was. When I finally got up sunday night, I could barely walk. My bp was way too low at that point, I was to later learn. That's when we took the trip to the ER. I literally crawled to the car, because I couldn't walk at that point. The stupid thing was having my wife drive me; in that condition I should have been in an ambulance. When I got to the ER, they took me right away. Getting out of the car is my last memory for the next five weeks. I've been told that in the ER, they had two saline IVs going, and nurses were squeezing the bags to get them in faster, in an attempt to get my bp up before I had an MI. After I got stabilized, I was semi-ok for a couple days, but went a lot further downhill, eventually having the full-blown cytokine storm.

I'm almost certain that I know the cause; on friday I went up into my attic to fix a bathroom fan that wasn't working. It turned out that it was improperly vented, with flex duct draped over joists. The end of the duct had filled with condensed water, blocking airflow. I just dumped it into a bucket and poured it into the bushes. It turned out that I had Legionnaire's Disease, caused by a common soil-borne bacteria called Legionella. This particular bacteria is pretty benign unless it gets into unchlorinated water at a warmish temperature, like you might find in an attic. Then it goes nuts and reproduces. If you happen to inhale a tiny droplet of this brew, you are screwed. If I'd just been wearing a dust mask, like I usually do when I work in the attic, the whole thing probably never would have happened, and I would never have known that I had a biological WMD in my possession. This disease and bacterium got its name right here in Philadelphia in 1976, when the American Legion had a convention at the Bellevue-Stratford Hotel. There was a contaminated air conditioning system that was spewing droplets into the rooms. These guys started dropping like flies, with an ultimate death toll of 54. It made national news because no one had any idea what was going on. At the time, the bacterium was unknown. They didn't figure the whole thing out until the next year.

[TheFountain]

There's one other way to avoid dying of pneumonia- get treated before it's too late. Most young people who die of pneumonia could probably be saved if they got antibiotics and supportive care soon enough. I came this close (holds thumb and forefinger together) to dying of pneumonia about five years ago. If I hadn't gone to the ER in the middle of the night, I'm pretty sure I would have died. As it was, I almost died in the hospital. It was an extremely gnarly pneumonia; Legionnaire's disease, along with Acute Respiratory Distress Syndrome (a cytokine storm, essentially). I was in the ICU for five weeks; they told me it was "a miracle" that I survived.

What were the symptoms you were ignoring up until the moment you finally decided to take yourself to the hospital? And do you have any idea what the cause of your Pneumonia was?

I wasn't exactly ignoring the symptoms. One day I was perfectly healthy, but that night I felt like I might be getting a cold. The next morning, I woke up feeling awful- I was maybe a little nauseous, as I recall, and very light headed. At that point, there was a red herring; my son had just gotten over a case of strep throat, and initially that's what I thought I had. I would have gone to the doctor then, but it was a sunday, so I figured I'd just wait til monday. I spent the whole day in bed, and since I never got up, I didn't know how bad I was. When I finally got up sunday night, I could barely walk. My bp was way too low at that point, I was to later learn. That's when we took the trip to the ER. I literally crawled to the car, because I couldn't walk at that point. The stupid thing was having my wife drive me; in that condition I should have been in an ambulance. When I got to the ER, they took me right away. Getting out of the car is my last memory for the next five weeks. I've been told that in the ER, they had two saline IVs going, and nurses were squeezing the bags to get them in faster, in an attempt to get my bp up before I had an MI. After I got stabilized, I was semi-ok for a couple days, but went a lot further downhill, eventually having the full-blown cytokine storm.

I'm almost certain that I know the cause; on friday I went up into my attic to fix a bathroom fan that wasn't working. It turned out that it was improperly vented, with flex duct draped over joists. The end of the duct had filled with condensed water, blocking airflow. I just dumped it into a bucket and poured it into the bushes. It turned out that I had Legionnaire's Disease, caused by a common soil-borne bacteria called Legionella. This particular bacteria is pretty benign unless it gets into unchlorinated water at a warmish temperature, like you might find in an attic. Then it goes nuts and reproduces. If you happen to inhale a tiny droplet of this brew, you are screwed. If I'd just been wearing a dust mask, like I usually do when I work in the attic, the whole thing probably never would have happened, and I would never have known that I had a biological WMD in my possession. This disease and bacterium got its name right here in Philadelphia in 1976, when the American Legion had a convention at the Bellevue-Stratford Hotel. There was a contaminated air conditioning system that was spewing droplets into the rooms. These guys started dropping like flies, with an ultimate death toll of 54. It made national news because no one had any idea what was going on. At the time, the bacterium was unknown. They didn't figure the whole thing out until the next year.

And it just hit you out of nowhere without the typical warning symptoms of pneumonia, such as respiratory distress, cough, etc? Were you on any immune strengthening supplements at the time? And did the hospital itself identify the bacterium via blood testing, or just the condition it gave rise to?

Edited by TheFountain, 01 December 2011 - 05:26 PM.

[hippocampus]

Infectious Disease Research Yeast Beta 1,3/1,6 Glucan
http://www.beta13dgl...seabstracts.pdf take a look at this!

do you know anything about dosage? I eat about 50 grams of oats everyday, that's about 2 grams of beta-glucan. Is this enough for boosting immune system (for prevention)?

[niner]

And it just hit you out of nowhere without the typical warning symptoms of pneumonia, such as respiratory distress, cough, etc? Were you on any immune strengthening supplements at the time? And did the hospital itself identify the bacterium via blood testing, or just the condition it gave rise to?

Yeah, it was pretty much out of the blue. No immune strengtheners. In fact, at the time I was using a steroid inhaler, a well known immunosuppressant, which I've since discontinued. (So far, so good, although my FEV1 is down a little). The hospital had a hard time figuring it out. It was eventually identified by antibodies, and all the symptoms fit, along with the probable exposure. Whether or not they figured out what it was, they would have treated it the same way. I think the ARDS/cytokine storm part of it was actually the worst thing. The treatment for that was crazy- 300 milligrams of prednisone(!) A gigantic chiller parked by my bed to cool me off, on a ventilator running max O2, completely blasted on propofol and enough fentanyl to kill most people.

[Ark]

Taking Cat's Claw , Reishi , Colostrum and "Magic Yeast" (nick name was dubbed for it's ability to keep people healthy) Diamond V, XP Greens -OMRI

[TheFountain]

And it just hit you out of nowhere without the typical warning symptoms of pneumonia, such as respiratory distress, cough, etc? Were you on any immune strengthening supplements at the time? And did the hospital itself identify the bacterium via blood testing, or just the condition it gave rise to?

Yeah, it was pretty much out of the blue. No immune strengtheners. In fact, at the time I was using a steroid inhaler, a well known immunosuppressant, which I've since discontinued. (So far, so good, although my FEV1 is down a little). The hospital had a hard time figuring it out. It was eventually identified by antibodies, and all the symptoms fit, along with the probable exposure. Whether or not they figured out what it was, they would have treated it the same way. I think the ARDS/cytokine storm part of it was actually the worst thing. The treatment for that was crazy- 300 milligrams of prednisone(!) A gigantic chiller parked by my bed to cool me off, on a ventilator running max O2, completely blasted on propofol and enough fentanyl to kill most people.

The human body is an amazing self regulatory system. Just last night I was having a discussion with a premed friend of mine and we were talking about how amazing it is that people on extreme doses of morphine after experiencing shock as a result of accident or as a result of disease do not die from such persistent dosing of such a potentially lethal drug.

But it's good you made it through. My guess is the people who died in 76 had it a couple days longer than you did, I would say you possibly beat the clock by plenty of time, despite how horrid you felt. But then I am only basing this on what I am reading about this disease at the moment.

What are some other causes of potentially fatal pneumonia people should be aware of? Being an excessive smoker is obviously one of them, but smoking in general will lower your immunity to just about anything (I hear smokers coughing all the time when I am out). Too much alcohol is thought to numb the receptors in the throat which are responsible for discharging most potential contaminants, so excessive alcohol is another thing to be aware of.

[TheFountain]

And it just hit you out of nowhere without the typical warning symptoms of pneumonia, such as respiratory distress, cough, etc? Were you on any immune strengthening supplements at the time? And did the hospital itself identify the bacterium via blood testing, or just the condition it gave rise to?

Yeah, it was pretty much out of the blue. No immune strengtheners. In fact, at the time I was using a steroid inhaler, a well known immunosuppressant, which I've since discontinued. (So far, so good, although my FEV1 is down a little). The hospital had a hard time figuring it out. It was eventually identified by antibodies, and all the symptoms fit, along with the probable exposure. Whether or not they figured out what it was, they would have treated it the same way. I think the ARDS/cytokine storm part of it was actually the worst thing. The treatment for that was crazy- 300 milligrams of prednisone(!) A gigantic chiller parked by my bed to cool me off, on a ventilator running max O2, completely blasted on propofol and enough fentanyl to kill most people.

By the way, did you notice breathing problems right away or were you too weak to notice this?

Edited by TheFountain, 01 December 2011 - 11:41 PM.

[mpe]

23 years ago my wife and I contracted Legionnaires Disease. We dont know how we picked it up, but it was devasting; my wife was 3 months pregnant at the time, she didn't miscarry but our daughter was born 6 weeks premature. The doctor didn't know what we had at first, but once diagnosed the treamtment was quick and effective, however the delay in its diagnoses would probably have killed an older person.

Niner you were very lucky

[niner]

By the way, did you notice breathing problems right away or were you too weak to notice this?

I don't remember obvious breathing problems, but I wasn't oxygenating very well. I'm told that I was much better once I was on O2. The biggest problem was septic shock. Low bp, mainly. Also, this particular bacterium's toxin causes a lowered heart rate, which is the opposite of what I needed. I suspect that as pneumonia goes, this particular one is kind of atypical. I know that there are some others that come on very quickly. Most pneumonias develop relatively slowly, though, usually starting with an upper respiratory infection. The usual pathway is a viral URI that takes a turn for the worse around the time it ought to be getting better. It's a bacterial secondary infection, and they can hang on for a long time. If you've had two viral infections in close proximity, you're even more likely to get a bacterial secondary/tertiary infection, and it may have a worse outcome, because your barrier function is so screwed up. So for most cases of pneumonia, the best way to avoid it is to avoid viral infections. (wash hands, don't shake hands with sick people, don't touch your face...) These more typical pneumonia cases are rarely lethal, though they can be. It mostly gets down to the virulence of the bug that you're infected with.

[TheFountain]

By the way, did you notice breathing problems right away or were you too weak to notice this?

I don't remember obvious breathing problems, but I wasn't oxygenating very well. I'm told that I was much better once I was on O2. The biggest problem was septic shock. Low bp, mainly. Also, this particular bacterium's toxin causes a lowered heart rate, which is the opposite of what I needed. I suspect that as pneumonia goes, this particular one is kind of atypical. I know that there are some others that come on very quickly. Most pneumonias develop relatively slowly, though, usually starting with an upper respiratory infection. The usual pathway is a viral URI that takes a turn for the worse around the time it ought to be getting better. It's a bacterial secondary infection, and they can hang on for a long time. If you've had two viral infections in close proximity, you're even more likely to get a bacterial secondary/tertiary infection, and it may have a worse outcome, because your barrier function is so screwed up. So for most cases of pneumonia, the best way to avoid it is to avoid viral infections. (wash hands, don't shake hands with sick people, don't touch your face...) These more typical pneumonia cases are rarely lethal, though they can be. It mostly gets down to the virulence of the bug that you're infected with.

The statistics on fatality from common pneumonia is not that alarming, not to mention the extremely rare form you had, but I wonder if that bacterial strain, or something similar, is what did Jim henson in. From what i read he waited like a week before even thinking of seeing a doctor, but by then it was too late and the antibiotics would not take effect.

But I can't stand people who don't cover their mouths when they cough in public. I was at the post office earlier today and this woman, about 50 something, heavy set kept coughing in all kinds of directions without covering her damned mouth. I wanted to say something to her so bad. But I just quickly finished what I was doing and walked away from her. It's so inconsiderate. But then these heavy set, smoker types don't have the wherewith all to consider their own health, let alone someone elses. Best thing is to avoid them. I even live in a non-smoking apartment complex. Thank goodness.

Edited by TheFountain, 02 December 2011 - 02:55 AM.

[niner]

Wow, the Jim Henson story is sad. Here's the description from the Wikipedia article on him:

During production of his later projects, Henson began to experience flu-like symptoms.[3] On May 4, 1990, Henson made an appearance on The Arsenio Hall Show, one of his last television appearances. At the time, he mentioned to his publicist that he was tired and had a sore throat, but felt that it would go away.[3]

On May 12, 1990, Henson traveled to Ahoskie, North Carolina, with his daughter Cheryl to visit his father and stepmother. The next day, feeling tired and ill, he consulted a physician in North Carolina, who could find no evidence of pneumonia by physical examination and prescribed no treatment except aspirin.[29] Henson returned to New York on an earlier flight and cancelled a Muppet recording session scheduled for May 14.[3]

Henson's wife Jane, from whom he was separated, came to visit and sat with him talking throughout the evening. At 2 A.M. on May 15, Henson was having trouble breathing and began coughing up blood. He suggested to his wife that he might be dying, but did not want to bother going to the hospital. She later told People Magazine that it was likely due to his desire not to be a bother to people.[3]

Two hours later, Henson finally agreed to go to New York Hospital. By the time he was admitted at 4:58 A.M., he could no longer breathe on his own and had abscesses in his lungs. He was placed on a mechanical ventilator to help him breathe, but his condition deteriorated rapidly into septic shock despite aggressive treatment with multiple antibiotics. 20 hours and 23 minutes after he was admitted, Henson died on the morning of May 16, 1990 at the age of 53.

The official cause of death was first reported as Streptococcus pneumoniae, a bacterial infection.[5] Bacterial pneumonia is usually caused by Streptococcus pneumoniae, an alpha-hemolytic species of Streptococcus. Henson's cause of death, however, was organ failure resulting from Streptococcus pyogenes, a severe Group A streptococcal infection.[30] S. pyogenes is the bacterial species that causes strep throat, scarlet fever, and rheumatic fever. It can also cause other infections.

Yikes. All that air travel. The treating doctor at the hospital said:

He said that death from the bacteria is neither common nor rare, and that the outcome might have been different if Mr. Henson had been hospitallized only eight hours earlier. [...]

Dr. Gelmont said the pneumonia appeared to be a secondary infection that set in after a bout of flu. Mr. Henson had consulted a doctor in North Carolina on Saturday, complaining of flulike symptoms, Dr. Gelmont said, but that doctor could find no evidence of lung infection and prescribed no treatment beyond aspirin. Dr. Gelmont suggested that the pneumonia bacteria probably infiltrated the lungs sometime in the next 24 hours. By the time Mr. Henson arrived at New York Hospital, the bacteria had been ''galloping'' through his body for two to three days, the doctor said.

Probably best to stay off airplanes when you're sick. What a tragedy.

[TheFountain]

What do you guys think of lung strengthening supplements like super-oxide dismutase having a positive effect on preventive treatment for pneumonia?
Sp
eaking of which I am going to create a thread on this supplement in the supplement section soon.

[TheFountain]

Wow, the Jim Henson story is sad. Here's the description from the Wikipedia article on him:

During production of his later projects, Henson began to experience flu-like symptoms.[3] On May 4, 1990, Henson made an appearance on The Arsenio Hall Show, one of his last television appearances. At the time, he mentioned to his publicist that he was tired and had a sore throat, but felt that it would go away.[3]

On May 12, 1990, Henson traveled to Ahoskie, North Carolina, with his daughter Cheryl to visit his father and stepmother. The next day, feeling tired and ill, he consulted a physician in North Carolina, who could find no evidence of pneumonia by physical examination and prescribed no treatment except aspirin.[29] Henson returned to New York on an earlier flight and cancelled a Muppet recording session scheduled for May 14.[3]

Henson's wife Jane, from whom he was separated, came to visit and sat with him talking throughout the evening. At 2 A.M. on May 15, Henson was having trouble breathing and began coughing up blood. He suggested to his wife that he might be dying, but did not want to bother going to the hospital. She later told People Magazine that it was likely due to his desire not to be a bother to people.[3]

Two hours later, Henson finally agreed to go to New York Hospital. By the time he was admitted at 4:58 A.M., he could no longer breathe on his own and had abscesses in his lungs. He was placed on a mechanical ventilator to help him breathe, but his condition deteriorated rapidly into septic shock despite aggressive treatment with multiple antibiotics. 20 hours and 23 minutes after he was admitted, Henson died on the morning of May 16, 1990 at the age of 53.

The official cause of death was first reported as Streptococcus pneumoniae, a bacterial infection.[5] Bacterial pneumonia is usually caused by Streptococcus pneumoniae, an alpha-hemolytic species of Streptococcus. Henson's cause of death, however, was organ failure resulting from Streptococcus pyogenes, a severe Group A streptococcal infection.[30] S. pyogenes is the bacterial species that causes strep throat, scarlet fever, and rheumatic fever. It can also cause other infections.

Yikes. All that air travel. The treating doctor at the hospital said:

He said that death from the bacteria is neither common nor rare, and that the outcome might have been different if Mr. Henson had been hospitallized only eight hours earlier. [...]

Dr. Gelmont said the pneumonia appeared to be a secondary infection that set in after a bout of flu. Mr. Henson had consulted a doctor in North Carolina on Saturday, complaining of flulike symptoms, Dr. Gelmont said, but that doctor could find no evidence of lung infection and prescribed no treatment beyond aspirin. Dr. Gelmont suggested that the pneumonia bacteria probably infiltrated the lungs sometime in the next 24 hours. By the time Mr. Henson arrived at New York Hospital, the bacteria had been ''galloping'' through his body for two to three days, the doctor said.

Probably best to stay off airplanes when you're sick. What a tragedy.

Yea, I grew up with the muppets, and although I did not have any recollection, as I was a small child at the time, of Hensons death, when I found out later I was rather saddened. At the very least this story proves that waiting too long (days in this case) is not a wise decision. If I were admitted to any hospital with flu-like symptoms I would insist on having my lungs checked. Why would some doctor merely suggest aspirin, even in 1990? I wonder where exactly this bacteria first infiltrated him.

[TheFountain]

Another thing, for helping to prevent the pneumonia of bacterial origin, probiotics. Eat your greek yogurt guys!

I would buy those probiotic shakes they sell in the 'health food section' of krogers but they always have added this, added that. Who needs 25 grams of sugar for a 9 oz bottle of kefir? Presumably the people who wouldn't care about consuming that much sugar per serving are drinking soda anyway, not probiotic shakes.

So yea, try to get all natural sources of probiotics (live cultures) into your systems as frequently as possible!

Edited by TheFountain, 02 December 2011 - 04:56 AM.

[Luminosity]

Scott,

This is an intelligent discussion of pneumonia, but I think Jack LaLanne did achieve longevity. He was fit and strong well into his old age and died at 96. It's a shame he died, but he out-did most people in strength and longevity. Not to offend any immortalists, but if you are going to die, you want to go out before your life turns to shit.

Edited by Luminosity, 02 December 2011 - 06:41 AM.