25 replies to this topic

[chris w]

http://www.dailymail...ondon-flat.html

My take-away lesson from her story - just because Keith Richards could handle it, doesn't mean you could too.

R. I. P. Amy

[1kgcoffee]

Who honestly cares? There were probably thousands of people better than her who died yesterday.

[rwac]

Who honestly cares? There were probably thousands of people better than her who died yesterday.

That's harsh. I'm coming to believe that there's no such thing as addiction, it's basically a response to deal with boredom/pain or some other illness.

...he took rats who’d had 57 days to get addicted to the drugs and took half of them out of the cages and put them in the park. The rats, even though they’d been addicted in the cage, suddenly stayed away from the drugs. They even voluntarily detoxed — trembling and shaking, but still staying off the drugs.

Rat Park

[1kgcoffee]

Do you mean the pleasure/pain principle? Many people sacrifice short term pleasure for long term pain and self-destruction, even though they know better. Winehouse knowingly killing herself. I'm not happy about her death, but I can't feel pity for her just as I can't for people who stuff their faces at McDonalds. Boredom and pain are poor excuses.

Edited by 1kgcoffee, 24 July 2011 - 04:45 PM.

[rwac]

Do you mean the pleasure/pain principle? Many people sacrifice short term pleasure for long term pain and self-destruction, even though they know better. Winehouse knowingly killing herself. I'm not happy about her death, but I can't feel pity for her just as I can't for people who stuff their faces at McDonalds. Boredom and pain are poor excuses.

You're making a physiological problem into a problem of self-discipline. It's like asking a person to diet by eating fewer calories, It doesn't work for everyone because of the underlying strong biological cravings.

Same thing with McD. People have cravings, and unfortunately, McDs is the most familiar way to satisfy those cravings. For instance people crave salt, and end up eating unhealthy chips or fries instead of just eating more salt.

This is not to dismiss the individual's responsibility in the matter.

I'm beginning to see that people feel ill and self treat with whatever substances happen to be available. Unfortunately, the most easily available substances tend to be illegal drugs ...

[The Immortalist]

I made this:

 Amy Winehouse CSI comic.jpg   88.56KB   40 downloads

Edited by The Immortalist, 24 July 2011 - 06:54 PM.

[Elus]

I heard they tried to make her go to rehab, but she said no, no, no.

[niner]

I'm coming to believe that there's no such thing as addiction, it's basically a response to deal with boredom/pain or some other illness.

I couldn't go that far. I think that the rats represent one type of drug user that isn't badly addicted. Lots of people will use drugs in high stress situations, then get off of them when things calm down. Amy Winehouse looks to have been a full blown addict within her environment. Maybe if she'd been put in some hypothetical low-stress, engaging environment she could have quit successfully. For the record, I think it's pretty sad for her to lose her career and her life at such a young age. It's a waste of talent.

[e Volution]

You're making a physiological problem into a problem of self-discipline. It's like asking a person to diet by eating fewer calories, It doesn't work for everyone because of the underlying strong biological cravings.

I would say it doesn't work for MOST people. Just look at the overweight and obesity statistics to verify that. I am starting to think that the marvel is the people who manage to stay slim right into old age. These are the people we should be studying, and my bet is it will mostly be nature in genetic predisposition to better handle carbohydrate and/or Neolithic foods, and a separate component of personality/self-discipline which I still think will be a lot of nature and only a little bit of nurture.

[mikeinnaples]

6 more days ..... and I would have won several hundred dollars in our death pool.

[rwac]

You're making a physiological problem into a problem of self-discipline. It's like asking a person to diet by eating fewer calories, It doesn't work for everyone because of the underlying strong biological cravings.

I would say it doesn't work for MOST people. Just look at the overweight and obesity statistics to verify that. I am starting to think that the marvel is the people who manage to stay slim right into old age. These are the people we should be studying, and my bet is it will mostly be nature in genetic predisposition to better handle carbohydrate and/or Neolithic foods, and a separate component of personality/self-discipline which I still think will be a lot of nature and only a little bit of nurture.

On the contrary, I believe old people who are overweight have a higher life expectancy than those who are not. I believe that some fat people are fat because they are capable of sequestering certain damaging substances like toxins or perhaps PUFAs, so there are benefits to being fat.

[niner]

6 more days ..... and I would have won several hundred dollars in our death pool.

Seriously, you were in an Amy Winehouse death pool? Did someone win?

[mikeinnaples]

6 more days ..... and I would have won several hundred dollars in our death pool.

Seriously, you were in an Amy Winehouse death pool? Did someone win?

Celebrity death pool ...not specific to Amy Winehouse. I had her for August.

[niner]

This is weird: What do Brian Jones, Jimi Hendrix, Janis Joplin, Jim Morrison, Kurt Cobain, Robert Johnson, Ron "Pigpen" McKernan, and Amy Winehouse have in common? They all died at the age of 27. These are the most famous, There are more...

[cathological]

Good. Her death would make a good PSA. But only if they plaster pictures of her dead body everywhere and nothing less. In my oppinion people don't turn to drugs because of "pain", far from it. Too many people especially the youth are ignorant about the dangers of drugs. People do that shit because they're sheltered (youths) from the reality of drugs if you ask me. I knew a girl that was a hardcore meth addict, that started when she was 14 (no doubt exploited by some guy that targeted her), and she lived in a very nice house... She couldn't stand the thought of a house plant dying. I can think of many other examples. Thus the thought of doing drugs to me is out of the question. And here we have a celeb that encouraged drug use finally die as a result of drugs. Maybe fans of hers that use drugs will wake up.

You want your kid to grow up to be a drug addict? Get them into the mickey mouse club.

Edited by cathological, 25 July 2011 - 11:26 PM.

[cathological]

Also I notice that many obese people stick their heads in the sand about the serious nature of their problem. They think that Obesity is normal, that they're not truely fat, any criticism of them is by people that are 'shallow', that the issue if any is purely cosmetic, and big is beautiful. Overweight people have a higher life expectancy... so you better be obese.

[mikeinnaples]

Also I notice that many obese people stick their heads in the sand about the serious nature of their problem. They think that Obesity is normal, that they're not truely fat, any criticism of them is by people that are 'shallow', that the issue if any is purely cosmetic, and big is beautiful. Overweight people have a higher life expectancy... so you better be obese.

The drive for the acceptance of 'fat' in society has been led by fat people. It is much easier to claim persecution than it is to make life style changes by eating correctly and getting off of your lazy ass and getting fit. Some people call me a dick when I say such things, because I am definitely vocal about it.... but with the exception of a very small percentage of the overweight and obese it absolutely CAN be changed through diet and exercise changes. There is no reason to accept 'fat' and unhealthy.

[1kgcoffee]

Do you mean the pleasure/pain principle? Many people sacrifice short term pleasure for long term pain and self-destruction, even though they know better. Winehouse knowingly killing herself. I'm not happy about her death, but I can't feel pity for her just as I can't for people who stuff their faces at McDonalds. Boredom and pain are poor excuses.

You're making a physiological problem into a problem of self-discipline. It's like asking a person to diet by eating fewer calories, It doesn't work for everyone because of the underlying strong biological cravings.

Same thing with McD. People have cravings, and unfortunately, McDs is the most familiar way to satisfy those cravings. For instance people crave salt, and end up eating unhealthy chips or fries instead of just eating more salt.

This is not to dismiss the individual's responsibility in the matter.

I'm beginning to see that people feel ill and self treat with whatever substances happen to be available. Unfortunately, the most easily available substances tend to be illegal drugs ...

Unlike rats, humans have large frontal lobes, free will and the ability to change their environment. A conscious person may be influenced but is not a slave to their physiology. People who value their existence - ie members of longecity - do find ways to rise above those cravings. Do we have some special gene that makes us value life more? I could be wrong but I don't think so.

[rwac]

Unlike rats, humans have large frontal lobes, free will and the ability to change their environment. A conscious person may be influenced but is not a slave to their physiology. People who value their existence - ie members of longecity - do find ways to rise above those cravings. Do we have some special gene that makes us value life more? I could be wrong but I don't think so.

Hmm. Do members of longecity find ways of rising above the cravings or did they have weaker cravings to begin with?
How many members of longecity have deep physiological problems combined with unlimited easy access to pharmaceuticals?

How much free will do we have really, that can't be overriden by physiology?
For instance extreme hunger will drive people to all sorts of things.

[Rational Madman]

http://www.dailymail...ondon-flat.html

My take-away lesson from her story - just because Keith Richards could handle it, doesn't mean you could too.

R. I. P. Amy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1evzhSast8

When my girlfriend first imparted the news, I wasn't in the least bit surprised, since she took the substance abuse of her celebrity counterparts to almost a whole new level.

[Rational Madman]

6 more days ..... and I would have won several hundred dollars in our death pool.

Seriously, you were in an Amy Winehouse death pool? Did someone win?

I've heard about some prediction/betting websites that gamble over everything from state failure to drug induced celebrity deaths, so if you summon the power of Google, you'll certainly find a good quantity of these kinds of sites.

[Rational Madman]

Unlike rats, humans have large frontal lobes, free will and the ability to change their environment. A conscious person may be influenced but is not a slave to their physiology. People who value their existence - ie members of longecity - do find ways to rise above those cravings. Do we have some special gene that makes us value life more? I could be wrong but I don't think so.

Hmm. Do members of longecity find ways of rising above the cravings or did they have weaker cravings to begin with?
How many members of longecity have deep physiological problems combined with unlimited easy access to pharmaceuticals?

How much free will do we have really, that can't be overriden by physiology?
For instance extreme hunger will drive people to all sorts of things.

It seems like you've been doing a healthy amount of existential thinking these days, no? Anyway, I think you're spot on, and ahead of the norm by at least a decade.

[niner]

Unlike rats, humans have large frontal lobes, free will and the ability to change their environment. A conscious person may be influenced but is not a slave to their physiology. People who value their existence - ie members of longecity - do find ways to rise above those cravings. Do we have some special gene that makes us value life more? I could be wrong but I don't think so.

Hmm. Do members of longecity find ways of rising above the cravings or did they have weaker cravings to begin with?
How many members of longecity have deep physiological problems combined with unlimited easy access to pharmaceuticals?

I don't think that we all rise above the cravings. I can think of a couple ImmInst members who are no longer among the living due to their substance use. A lot of us have used, well, a lot of things. A lot of us have problems we wrestle with, and self-medication happens. Was Winehouse self-medicating? You could probably call it that.

[chris w]

Who honestly cares? There were probably thousands of people better than her who died yesterday.

I may sound like somebody twice my age, but I think that appart from being a talented person, when alive she was also (together with bunch of similar people, like Pete Doherty) a net-negative influence on younger generations, in that she made doing drugs look like part of being an interesting person and not all that harmful in the end (only we can now tick the latter part off in her case) because there will always be somebody to fix you.

This is weird: What do Brian Jones, Jimi Hendrix, Janis Joplin, Jim Morrison, Kurt Cobain, Robert Johnson, Ron "Pigpen" McKernan, and Amy Winehouse have in common? They all died at the age of 27. These are the most famous, There are more...

Yeah, I'm aware of the phenomenon and would like to someday hear a coherent statistical explanation of it, something not involving devils at the crossroads and enchanted guitars .

[e Volution]

Unlike rats, humans have large frontal lobes, free will and the ability to change their environment. A conscious person may be influenced but is not a slave to their physiology. People who value their existence - ie members of longecity - do find ways to rise above those cravings. Do we have some special gene that makes us value life more? I could be wrong but I don't think so.

Hmm. Do members of longecity find ways of rising above the cravings or did they have weaker cravings to begin with?
How many members of longecity have deep physiological problems combined with unlimited easy access to pharmaceuticals?

I don't think that we all rise above the cravings. I can think of a couple ImmInst members who are no longer among the living due to their substance use. A lot of us have used, well, a lot of things. A lot of us have problems we wrestle with, and self-medication happens. Was Winehouse self-medicating? You could probably call it that.

I think rwac is really on the money here.

I had trouble my whole life maintaining my weight. I was never overweight but I never had abs. A constant struggle of putting weight on slowly over months and years, then trying painfully to take it off through dieting, then eventually repeating the whole cycle again.

Then I found the Paleo Diet and a basic ImmInst supplement regimen. Within a couple months I was at the lowest body fat % I had been at since I was a young teenager. I didn't change mentally at all, not a single thing about who I am, or how much will power I have, or how I exercise, or any of my partying ways. Nothing. I mean I am still shocked at how smooth and effortless the process was.

Well I think as Gary Taubes has argued pretty successfully (lets not get into a carbohydrate debate here) it turns out I had a physiological problem, not a psychological one. Big difference...

[e Volution]

This is weird: What do Brian Jones, Jimi Hendrix, Janis Joplin, Jim Morrison, Kurt Cobain, Robert Johnson, Ron "Pigpen" McKernan, and Amy Winehouse have in common? They all died at the age of 27. These are the most famous, There are more...

Yeah, I'm aware of the phenomenon and would like to someday hear a coherent statistical explanation of it, something not involving devils at the crossroads and enchanted guitars .

I'll give you one right now: random probability + selection bias + silent evidence

I bet if you looked at all musicians past and present and looked at when they died, the age of 27 would not be significant. Then there is the fact it is defined as "influential musicians" which is a totally arbitrary definition to pick a sample from. I'm sure someone here better versed in this stuff could give us a clearer breakdown of it all though.