8 replies to this topic

[thedevinroy]

I noticed that while taking a lot of nootropics at a time, I would forget the neurotransmitter serotonin. I knew it because I'd want to cry for no reason. Choline uptake, as well as preventing Acetylcholine break down, means less methylation for dopamine and serotonin. Since I always take things for dopamine (ranging from MAOi's to CNS stims), serotonin was neglected completely sometimes.

Bacopa fixed that. I started taking 500mg of Bacopin® powder before bed. It made me much calmer during the day as well as clearer, too. Plus, it increases serotonin creation and transport, which offsets the negative effects of Huperzine A which I take every now and then.

Bacopa Raises Serotonin Levels & Decreases Dopamine Levels (http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/21129470):

AIM OF THE STUDY:
To examine the effect of Bacopa monniera leaf ethanolic extract (BMEE) on the serotonergic system of postnatal rats with reference to learning and memory.

MATERIALS AND METHODS:
From postnatal day (PND)-15-29, rats were treated with BMEE (40 mg/kg BW+0.5% gum acacia) by oral gavage. Behavioural tests (Y-maze, hole-board and passive avoidance) were used to evaluate their learning (PND-32-37) and retention of memory (PND-47-53). Effect of BMEE on neurotransmitter system was analyzed by ELISA and semi-quantitative polymerase chain reaction (PCR).

RESULTS:
Oral administration of BMEE improved learning and retention of memory significantly in all behavioural tasks. Following BMEE treatment, the level of serotonin (5-HT) increased while dopamine (DA) decreased significantly. We also found variation in the level of acetylcholine (ACh). However, no significant changes were observed in the level of ACh and glutamate (Glu). The level of 5-HT was significantly elevated up to PND-37 and was then restored to normal level on PND-53. Interestingly, concomitant up-regulation was recorded in the mRNA expression of serotonin synthesizing enzyme tryptophan hydroxylase-2 (TPH2) and serotonin transporter (SERT) on PND-29 and PND-37, which was restored on PND-53.

CONCLUSIONS:
The results suggest that BMEE treatment significantly enhances the learning and retention of memory in postnatal rats possibly through regulating the expression of TPH2, 5-HT metabolism and transport.

There are studies out there that say that Bacopa increases dopamine levels... (http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/17321089) is one, for example, but this is a restorative action against acute stress and chronic unpredictable stress (poore rats...) which would make it an adaptogen. However, I and the study agrees that this is most likely due to anti-oxidant activity, which is an indirect way to raise monoamine levels and only effective under stressful conditions.

This morning I woke up with a lot of energy. I made my supplement cocktail (500mg Tyrosine, 500mg of ALCAR, 1.15mg Methylene Blue, 1g Choline Bitartate, 25mg DMAA, Lemonade Powder) and only finished a quarter of it before I had to stop. I was beginning to get jittery and got some jaw clenching like on Concerta. This is highly unusual. I've had this morning cocktail for a week and nothing more than a raise in heart rate accompanied it.

I had good sleep... really deep sleep. I usually take 150mg Picamilon (which has 300mcg of Huperzine A) and 500mg Bacopin® powder before bed. I don't need either to sleep, but I've found I couldn't take them during the day. Using them, my sleep is fast onset, but I need less of it and usually begin vivid dreaming at around 7 hours into sleep. Last night I didn't take either, and I'm wondering if it's the lack of Bacopa or Picamilon (or combo?) that caused my morning cocktail to kick me in the jaw. I hope it's the Picamilon because I never particularly cared for it, but if it is the Bacopa, I have to find a different antifungal for my tinea versicolor and another way of balancing serotonin.

Anyone have any experience with stopping Bacopa or Picamilon?

Edited by devinthayer, 24 July 2011 - 02:11 PM.

[thedevinroy]

Last night I had 75mg of Picamilon (w/ 150mcg of Huperzine A) and 75mg Bacopa extract. Slept for 7.5hr, almost the same as the night before. Made the same morning cocktail, but no jaw clenching or jitters. I do have a strange energy today, but more likely from Tylenol I took for my soreness working on the car yesterday (feel like I'm sluggish water?). Tonight, I'm going to not take anything again and see how it goes tomorrow morning.

[X_Danny_X]

i thought Dopamine was the one getting you the happy feeling. so it is serotonin the one that does it? i thought also that serotonin and dopamine worked together when you take a drug like ritalin..

[thedevinroy]

i thought Dopamine was the one getting you the happy feeling. so it is serotonin the one that does it? i thought also that serotonin and dopamine worked together when you take a drug like ritalin..

Dopamine, Norepinephrine, and Serotonin are all neurotransmitters associated with mood. From what I understand... Dopamine is the uppity feeling, most associated with confidence and addiction. Norepinephrine is the motivation feeling, most associated with mental energy and fear. Serotonin is the "everything's a-okay" feeling, most associated with mood and serenity. They all usually work together. ADHD is associated with lower norepinephrine and/or dopamine. Major depressive disorder is mainly associated with lower serotonin levels and to some degree, the others as well.

Ritalin may increase serotonin levels a little bit because it has affinity as an agonist for a couple 5-HT binding sites, but it is mostly effective against ADHD because it inhibits the transporters DAT and NET, elevating levels of dopamine and norepinephrine, respectively, by preventing their transport outside the synapse to be broken down by enzymes MAO and COMT.

[thedevinroy]

Last night I did not take either Bacopa or Picamilon. I had little trouble getting to sleep, and a little bit more waking up. The morning cocktail of DMAA, Tyrosine, ALCAR, MB, and Choline really didn't punch me like that time a couple days. Perhaps this is a false alarm and is due mainly to having 3 days of solid 8hrs of sleep combined with the morning cocktail.

Tonight I shall take only the Bacopa at 150mg. Tomorrow night, only the Picamilon at 150mg. If no effects are of note, I can safely say that it was sleep cycle related.

[snuffie]

are you still taking bacopa?

if it lowers dopamine, isn't that counterproductive to the ADHD meds?

i have a bottle sitting here waiting to be tried...i thought it would be good for insomnia and anxiety...but now reading so many posts about bacopa making people feel groggy all the next day, i think i'll wait until next weekend to experiment with it...

[thedevinroy]

Bacopa was definitely counteracting some of the stimulants I was taking. The picamilon was combined with Huperzine A, so that wasn't actually helpful for sleep like I thought it was. Huperzine A is quite a mentally stimulating compound for me. It caused a very shallow sleep. Picamilon hits hard and fast and doesn't stick around for long. Bacopa hits you slowly over the course of 24 hours, and its serotonergic effects combined with lowered catechelomine levels really did affect the stack the next day.

[Ark]

Bacopa seems suited to treat ADHD/ADD what do you think Devinthayer?

[thedevinroy]

Bacopa seems suited to treat ADHD/ADD what do you think Devinthayer?

Possibly hyperactivity and restlessness in children. I wouldn't recommend it for Adult ADHD-PI beyond a small dose before bed to control impulsiveness. It's serotonin effects were just too strong. I felt really relaxed, inhibited, tired, and giddy with just 400mg (20%) before bed. It's effects lasted all through the night, made it hard to get up the next day, and wore off about the time for the next night.

Could just be me, I thought... but it turns out others feel it makes them way too groggy.

Of the 20% bacoposides, 100mg might be alright before bed. 50mg is unlikely to make people wake up groggy.

Edited by devinthayer, 18 December 2011 - 03:16 AM.