37 replies to this topic

[daftpunk]

Is there an alternative to Bacopa with a similar effect on the brain concerning memory? I have had to stop using Bacopa after only one week due to heart palpitations but I'm afraid my new stack will lose some potential viability without it.

Also, as long as I have your attention could you please reference me your piracetam (and other racetam) sources? I can only find one online vendor with a wide variety at this time and the prices seem high.

Edited by daftpunk, 25 July 2011 - 06:43 AM.

[thedevinroy]

Bacopa does a lot of things. For one, it removes amyloid plaque. Two, it is an adaptogen. Three, it is an anti-anxiety/anti-depressant. Four, it is a chelator. Five, it improves memory retention. Six it is an anti-fungal. Depending on the effects you are looking for, you should research different herbs.

Before Bacopa became over-popularized, the herbal combo to achieve cognitive performance and memory was Ginkgo, (Korean) Ginseng, and Gotu Kola.

[daftpunk]

Bacopa does a lot of things. For one, it removes amyloid plaque. Two, it is an adaptogen. Three, it is an anti-anxiety/anti-depressant. Four, it is a chelator. Five, it improves memory retention. Six it is an anti-fungal. Depending on the effects you are looking for, you should research different herbs.

Before Bacopa became over-popularized, the herbal combo to achieve cognitive performance and memory was Ginkgo, (Korean) Ginseng, and Gotu Kola.

Hi. I am referring to its effects on memory retention.

[thedevinroy]

In that case, I suggest Gotu Kola (centella asiatica) which has also shown improvement in memory retention (http://www.biomedres...nal/pdf/420.pdf) and is also sedative at higher doses, much like Bacopa. Therefore, during the day, it is combined with Ginkgo (http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/19593336) and Ginseng (http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/12435210) to counteract the sedative effects while still maintaining lowered anxiety and improved memory consolidation. This is an ancient remedy for intelligence in Asia. There are various different "ginsengs" out there. Siberian, Red Korean, American, White Korean, Indian, etc. American and Siberian are more adaptogenic/balanced; Red Korean (or typical Asian ginseng) is more stimulative; White Korean and Indian are more sedative.

Anyhow, I believe these herbs are best used in combo. If you have to choose one that most resembles Bacopa, I'd say it is Gotu Kola. Indian Ginseng (Ashwagandha) is a close second.

Edited by devinthayer, 26 July 2011 - 02:46 PM.

[daftpunk]

In that case, I suggest Gotu Kola (centella asiatica) which has also shown improvement in memory retention (http://www.biomedres...nal/pdf/420.pdf) and is also sedative at higher doses, much like Bacopa. Therefore, during the day, it is combined with Ginkgo (http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/19593336) and Ginseng (http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/12435210) to counteract the sedative effects while still maintaining lowered anxiety and improved memory consolidation. This is an ancient remedy for intelligence in Asia. There are various different "ginsengs" out there. Siberian, Red Korean, American, White Korean, Indian, etc. American and Siberian are more adaptogenic/balanced; Red Korean (or typical Asian ginseng) is more stimulative; White Korean and Indian are more sedative.

Anyhow, I believe these herbs are best used in combo. If you have to choose one that most resembles Bacopa, I'd say it is Gotu Kola. Indian Ginseng (Ashwagandha) is a close second.

Thank-you. As it has turned out this week it may have actually been my alpha lipoic acid which was giving me heart palpitations, I had just began bacopa 5 days before the heart problems began so I blamed it (heart palpitations are a known side effect in rare cases). But the problem kept getting worse in the morning and better at night until I discovered the worse symptoms coincided with my alpha lipoic acid. This actually made a lot more sense as it seems to be a more common problem with alpha lipoic acid than bacopa. I was taking 200 mg every other day for about a month before any problems. I stopped both supplements and will try bacopa again in a few weeks, but I'll never take doses of alpha lipoic acid greater than 25mg again.

I was not taking a B 50 during the past month and that means I may have induced a thiamin deficiency due to the alpha lipoic acid.

[thedevinroy]

Thank-you. As it has turned out this week it may have actually been my alpha lipoic acid which was giving me heart palpitations, I had just began bacopa 5 days before the heart problems began so I blamed it (heart palpitations are a known side effect in rare cases). But the problem kept getting worse in the morning and better at night until I discovered the worse symptoms coincided with my alpha lipoic acid. This actually made a lot more sense as it seems to be a more common problem with alpha lipoic acid than bacopa. I was taking 200 mg every other day for about a month before any problems. I stopped both supplements and will try bacopa again in a few weeks, but I'll never take doses of alpha lipoic acid greater than 25mg again.

I was not taking a B 50 during the past month and that means I may have induced a thiamin deficiency due to the alpha lipoic acid.

I can tell you that ALA definitely gave my sister heart palpitations, and sometimes me too. We took 200mg each. I developed a resistance to it over time.

Interesting... well my sister didn't have any B vitamins, but at the time, I was taking extra B Vitamins every day. Could that be why she got it worse than me?

[thedevinroy]

Also, as long as I have your attention could you please reference me your piracetam (and other racetam) sources? I can only find one online vendor with a wide variety at this time and the prices seem high.

http://biosciencenut...ategory&path=38

[daftpunk]

[/quote]
I can tell you that ALA definitely gave my sister heart palpitations, and sometimes me too. We took 200mg each. I developed a resistance to it over time.

Interesting... well my sister didn't have any B vitamins, but at the time, I was taking extra B Vitamins every day. Could that be why she got it worse than me?
[/quote]

My guess would be it could have played a role. I dont know if heart palpitations are only a seperate issue or if they can be derived from the thiamine deficiency. Alcohol also apparently plays a factor.

http://www.webmd.com...PHA-LIPOIC ACID

Edited by daftpunk, 26 July 2011 - 10:30 PM.

[daftpunk]

Thank-you. As it has turned out this week it may have actually been my alpha lipoic acid which was giving me heart palpitations, I had just began bacopa 5 days before the heart problems began so I blamed it (heart palpitations are a known side effect in rare cases). But the problem kept getting worse in the morning and better at night until I discovered the worse symptoms coincided with my alpha lipoic acid. This actually made a lot more sense as it seems to be a more common problem with alpha lipoic acid than bacopa. I was taking 200 mg every other day for about a month before any problems. I stopped both supplements and will try bacopa again in a few weeks, but I'll never take doses of alpha lipoic acid greater than 25mg again.

I was not taking a B 50 during the past month and that means I may have induced a thiamin deficiency due to the alpha lipoic acid.

I can tell you that ALA definitely gave my sister heart palpitations, and sometimes me too. We took 200mg each. I developed a resistance to it over time.

Interesting... well my sister didn't have any B vitamins, but at the time, I was taking extra B Vitamins every day. Could that be why she got it worse than me?

How long did her palpitations last after she quit the alpha lipoic acid? What about yours?

[Ark]

Thank-you. As it has turned out this week it may have actually been my alpha lipoic acid which was giving me heart palpitations, I had just began bacopa 5 days before the heart problems began so I blamed it (heart palpitations are a known side effect in rare cases). But the problem kept getting worse in the morning and better at night until I discovered the worse symptoms coincided with my alpha lipoic acid. This actually made a lot more sense as it seems to be a more common problem with alpha lipoic acid than bacopa. I was taking 200 mg every other day for about a month before any problems. I stopped both supplements and will try bacopa again in a few weeks, but I'll never take doses of alpha lipoic acid greater than 25mg again.

I was not taking a B 50 during the past month and that means I may have induced a thiamin deficiency due to the alpha lipoic acid.

I can tell you that ALA definitely gave my sister heart palpitations, and sometimes me too. We took 200mg each. I developed a resistance to it over time.

Interesting... well my sister didn't have any B vitamins, but at the time, I was taking extra B Vitamins every day. Could that be why she got it worse than me?

How long did her palpitations last after she quit the alpha lipoic acid? What about yours?

I'm kind of suprised no one's suggested Shankhpushpi (Convolvulus pluricaulis) yet.

[Ark]

Thank-you. As it has turned out this week it may have actually been my alpha lipoic acid which was giving me heart palpitations, I had just began bacopa 5 days before the heart problems began so I blamed it (heart palpitations are a known side effect in rare cases). But the problem kept getting worse in the morning and better at night until I discovered the worse symptoms coincided with my alpha lipoic acid. This actually made a lot more sense as it seems to be a more common problem with alpha lipoic acid than bacopa. I was taking 200 mg every other day for about a month before any problems. I stopped both supplements and will try bacopa again in a few weeks, but I'll never take doses of alpha lipoic acid greater than 25mg again.

I was not taking a B 50 during the past month and that means I may have induced a thiamin deficiency due to the alpha lipoic acid.

I can tell you that ALA definitely gave my sister heart palpitations, and sometimes me too. We took 200mg each. I developed a resistance to it over time.

Interesting... well my sister didn't have any B vitamins, but at the time, I was taking extra B Vitamins every day. Could that be why she got it worse than me?

How long did her palpitations last after she quit the alpha lipoic acid? What about yours?

I'm kind of suprised no one's suggested Shankhpushpi (Convolvulus pluricaulis) yet.

[thedevinroy]

Thank-you. As it has turned out this week it may have actually been my alpha lipoic acid which was giving me heart palpitations, I had just began bacopa 5 days before the heart problems began so I blamed it (heart palpitations are a known side effect in rare cases). But the problem kept getting worse in the morning and better at night until I discovered the worse symptoms coincided with my alpha lipoic acid. This actually made a lot more sense as it seems to be a more common problem with alpha lipoic acid than bacopa. I was taking 200 mg every other day for about a month before any problems. I stopped both supplements and will try bacopa again in a few weeks, but I'll never take doses of alpha lipoic acid greater than 25mg again.

I was not taking a B 50 during the past month and that means I may have induced a thiamin deficiency due to the alpha lipoic acid.

I can tell you that ALA definitely gave my sister heart palpitations, and sometimes me too. We took 200mg each. I developed a resistance to it over time.

Interesting... well my sister didn't have any B vitamins, but at the time, I was taking extra B Vitamins every day. Could that be why she got it worse than me?

How long did her palpitations last after she quit the alpha lipoic acid? What about yours?

Few hours, maybe four or five tops.

[thedevinroy]

I'm kind of suprised no one's suggested Shankhpushpi (Convolvulus pluricaulis) yet.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....QuerySuggestion

Interesting.. seems it has some effect on choline. But it definitely increased retention in this study (http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/20795365) but it seems it was also administered with an asparagus extract, so I'm not sure if it would have the same effect separately as they do in synergy.

Have you personally seen an increase in memory retention?

[daftpunk]

Thank-you. As it has turned out this week it may have actually been my alpha lipoic acid which was giving me heart palpitations, I had just began bacopa 5 days before the heart problems began so I blamed it (heart palpitations are a known side effect in rare cases). But the problem kept getting worse in the morning and better at night until I discovered the worse symptoms coincided with my alpha lipoic acid. This actually made a lot more sense as it seems to be a more common problem with alpha lipoic acid than bacopa. I was taking 200 mg every other day for about a month before any problems. I stopped both supplements and will try bacopa again in a few weeks, but I'll never take doses of alpha lipoic acid greater than 25mg again.

I was not taking a B 50 during the past month and that means I may have induced a thiamin deficiency due to the alpha lipoic acid.

I can tell you that ALA definitely gave my sister heart palpitations, and sometimes me too. We took 200mg each. I developed a resistance to it over time.

Interesting... well my sister didn't have any B vitamins, but at the time, I was taking extra B Vitamins every day. Could that be why she got it worse than me?

How long did her palpitations last after she quit the alpha lipoic acid? What about yours?

Few hours, maybe four or five tops.

ca
Mine continued a few days after ceasing the high dose alpha lipoic acid but they are finally gone today. The reason they continued was a multivitamin I picked up, (it included a b50 complex), I took this for a few days for the thiamine and would get worse symptoms shortly after using it. Sure enough, after a closer look at the ingredients I found it also contained alpha lipoic acid (50mg). 24 hours after no alpha lipoic acid almost all heart palpitation problems are gone and I am able to run again without the weird sensation.

[thedevinroy]

Thank-you. As it has turned out this week it may have actually been my alpha lipoic acid which was giving me heart palpitations, I had just began bacopa 5 days before the heart problems began so I blamed it (heart palpitations are a known side effect in rare cases). But the problem kept getting worse in the morning and better at night until I discovered the worse symptoms coincided with my alpha lipoic acid. This actually made a lot more sense as it seems to be a more common problem with alpha lipoic acid than bacopa. I was taking 200 mg every other day for about a month before any problems. I stopped both supplements and will try bacopa again in a few weeks, but I'll never take doses of alpha lipoic acid greater than 25mg again.

I was not taking a B 50 during the past month and that means I may have induced a thiamin deficiency due to the alpha lipoic acid.

I can tell you that ALA definitely gave my sister heart palpitations, and sometimes me too. We took 200mg each. I developed a resistance to it over time.

Interesting... well my sister didn't have any B vitamins, but at the time, I was taking extra B Vitamins every day. Could that be why she got it worse than me?

How long did her palpitations last after she quit the alpha lipoic acid? What about yours?

Few hours, maybe four or five tops.

ca
Mine continued a few days after ceasing the high dose alpha lipoic acid but they are finally gone today. The reason they continued was a multivitamin I picked up, (it included a b50 complex), I took this for a few days for the thiamine and would get worse symptoms shortly after using it. Sure enough, after a closer look at the ingredients I found it also contained alpha lipoic acid (50mg). 24 hours after no alpha lipoic acid almost all heart palpitation problems are gone and I am able to run again without the weird sensation.

Wow! You must be sensitive to the stuff. Anyhow glad for ya. See all those nootropics are good for something. You figured that one out all by yourself.

[Ark]

I'm kind of suprised no one's suggested Shankhpushpi (Convolvulus pluricaulis) yet.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....QuerySuggestion

Interesting.. seems it has some effect on choline. But it definitely increased retention in this study (http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/20795365) but it seems it was also administered with an asparagus extract, so I'm not sure if it would have the same effect separately as they do in synergy.

Have you personally seen an increase in memory retention?

Shankhpushpi has a more direct effect you can feel sooner IMHO then Bacopa, but for the record they stack great together and the effects compound each other so I'd advise to stack, even adding in Ashwangda.

[X_Danny_X]

so Shankhpushpi and Bacopa are best used for memory retention? they have no powers in increasing Cognitive function?

[thedevinroy]

so Shankhpushpi and Bacopa are best used for memory retention? they have no powers in increasing Cognitive function?

Bacopa increases serotonin and removes beta-amyloid plaque (associated with Alzheimer's), and Shankpushpi (which could be one of 4 herbs, but let's stick to Convulvulus pluricaulis) elevates ACh levels while simultaneously causing an anti-depressant effect (Which is an unusual advantage). They do a lot more than just that. Pubmed is full of articles. You tell me if they have other cognitive functions.

Here is the PubMed link: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed

Search for "Bacopa" or "Convolvulus pluricaulis" keywords and tell me what you find.

[X_Danny_X]

Bacopa releases Serotonin, i didnt know that. doesn't Ritalin release Serotonin as well? those are alot of links for me to read. i take it then that both improve cognitive function. how good are they though in improving cognitive function? i wanting to take choline with Bacopa and Shankhpushpi. that wont cause any conflicts correct. im assuing also that you mentioned Convulvulus pluricaulis because it is the strongest version.

ACh levels, what are they responsible for?

where can buy Bacopa and Shankhpushpi/Convulvulus pluricaulis?

Edited by X_Danny_X, 28 July 2011 - 08:14 PM.

[kassem23]

Bacopa releases Serotonin, i didnt know that. doesn't Ritalin release Serotonin as well?

No, Ritalin, the active ingredient being methylphenidate DOES NOT release serotonin. Neither does amphetamine at therapeutic dosages. Too many rumors going around, I see. Methylphenidate is an DRI.

ACh levels, what are they responsible for?

Acetylcholine. It is implicated in learning and memory, and a bunch of other stuff. The thing that has the most evidence in terms of human trials is Aricept, though, so you may want to look into that. It can have some side-effects though, but so can everything.

[X_Danny_X]

Aricept is stronger than Shankhpushpi/Convulvulus pluricaulis in stimulating Acetylcholine? i was looking at the prices and it is more expensive. not cheap at all, i take this is not a nootropic but a drug then?

[thedevinroy]

Bacopa releases Serotonin, i didnt know that. doesn't Ritalin release Serotonin as well? those are alot of links for me to read. i take it then that both improve cognitive function. how good are they though in improving cognitive function? i wanting to take choline with Bacopa and Shankhpushpi. that wont cause any conflicts correct. im assuing also that you mentioned Convulvulus pluricaulis because it is the strongest version.

ACh levels, what are they responsible for?

where can buy Bacopa and Shankhpushpi/Convulvulus pluricaulis?

Methylphenidate may elevated serotonin levels slightly in the same regions, but probably indirectly... dopamine and norepinephrine are substrates of the MAO-A enzyme which also break down serotonin.


Both nootropics and most herbs (as well as most psychotropics) are highly subjective in terms of effect in vivo. To gage how good they are would depend on your personal neurology. Increasing Acetylcholine may not do much if you have low density of receptors or are lacking proper function in the stratium and pre-frontal cortex (like in ADHD). Thus, to say without a doubt, that they both work for you would be niave. In general, both are thought of as wonderful nootropic supplements.

Too much choline is hard to achieve without spending a lot of money so go for it. I've taken heavy doses of choline supplements with no side effects and few interactions. The only thing to note is that if you smoke or take nicotine (like an electronic cigarette, lozenges, gum, patch, etc.), then an ACEi like Huperzine will change the effects of the nicotine. For me, puffing on an electronic cigarette while taking Huperzine makes the sedating effects of nicotine come on much quicker and last much longer. I wouldn't suggest it driving.

I was mentioning Convulvulus pluricaulis because it was mentioned by Ark. I don't know which one is the strongest version of Shankapushpi.

ACh levels are partially responsible for forming memories, especially short term.

I get Bacopa from Beyond a Century, but I'm sure any Bacopin® version (a standardized extract for 20% active ingredients) will have the same effects.

[X_Danny_X]

Acetylcholine may not do anything if i have bad or low density receptors or pre-frontal cortex? is there a way to tell that have you low receptors or bad prefrontal cortex response??/

Edited by X_Danny_X, 03 August 2011 - 02:49 AM.

[thedevinroy]

Acetylcholine may not do anything if i have bad or low density receptors or pre-frontal cortex like ADHD. i was label to have ADHD but i just mention to the doctor and she just accepted it.

Right. Acetylcholine receptor density can be up-regulated by increasing NGF. Lion's Mane increases NGF and ALCAR increases density of NGF receptors.

ADHD can be fixed by increasing signalling in the pre-frontal cortex. This is done by by activating alpha2a adrenergic receptors (activated naturally by norepinephrine) or decreasing cAMP via activating D4 dopaminergic receptors (activated naturally by dopamine). Inhibiting NET not only creates more norepinephrine which activates Alpha 2A receptors, but it also upregulates Alpha 2A and C adrenergic receptor density (http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/16417582) over time. Ginkgo, DMAA (geranimine), Strattera, and Methylphenidate (Ritalin, Concerta) inhibit NET. Guanfacine (Intuniv) activates the alpha 2A receptor directly, as does Clonidine and Oxymetazoline.

Activating the D4 dopamine receptor will decrease cyclic AMP in the prefrontal cortex, thereby fixing ADHD. Schizandrol A, Mu Gua (Flowering Quince), Modafinil, and Methylphenidate inhibit DAT, thereby raising dopamine levels to activate enough D4 receptors. No current compounds are commonly sold that act as selective D4 agonists.

Inhibiting the MAO-B enzyme will raise levels of both norepinephrine and dopamine, thereby activating alpha 2A and D4 simultaneously. MAO-B inhibitors/substrates include deprenyl (irreversible), piperine, emodin, hordenine, and catechin. I've used all the latter, and hordenine is the better one because you can get it in almost pure form, but it is short-lived and useless by itself.

Lastly, increasing your daily intake of methyl donors (Choline, TMG, DMAE (sortof), SAMe, and L-Methionine) and B vitamins (especially B6, B9, and B12) will also aid in monoamine production. Thiamine (Vitamin B1) (tri/di)phosphates release dopamine, so a thiamine analog like benfotiamine or sulbutiamine may help as will probably increasing levels of normal Thiamine.

Hope that helps! Don't repeat it back to me. Haha you like to do that.

[X_Danny_X]

WHOA!!! that is alot of info. wow, you know your stuff. are you a neuro scientist??? i think then that Rhodiola would be a good nootropic to take with Ritalin since it also releases dopamine and serotonin. it should help in activating the alpha 2a receptor directly. i hope that is not overload with combining the two. these two should be also MAO-B inhibitors as well right.

i never tried DMAA, only when i used something to help my nose. it has been combine with caffeine to lose weight via stimulant but i avoided it. Isn't Strattera Atomoxetine? it is used for ADHD, is that more powerful than Ritalin? i bet pretty expensive as well without prescription.

TMG, L-Methionine, Choline, Vitamin B (1,6,9,12).....i want to get these from foods. which foods are best to eat to get these guys? SAMe, doesn't our body produce it with all the food that we eat?


what do you mean by Deprenyl being irreversable?

if hordenine sucks by itself what can be used to take with it to make good?


sorry for all the questions but you brought alot of stuff that now i am interested in. so i had no choice. ha!

Edited by X_Danny_X, 03 August 2011 - 02:59 PM.

[thedevinroy]

WHOA!!! that is alot of info. wow, you know your stuff. are you a neuro scientist??? i think then that Rhodiola would be a good nootropic to take with Ritalin since it also releases dopamine and serotonin. it should help in activating the alpha 2a receptor directly. i hope that is not overload with combining the two. these two should be also MAO-B inhibitors as well right.

i never tried DMAA, only when i used something to help my nose. it has been combine with caffeine to lose weight via stimulant but i avoided it. Isn't Strattera Atomoxetine? it is used for ADHD, is that more powerful than Ritalin? i bet pretty expensive as well without prescription.

TMG, L-Methionine, Choline, Vitamin B (1,6,9,12).....i want to get these from foods. which foods are best to eat to get these guys? SAMe, doesn't our body produce it with all the food that we eat?


what do you mean by Deprenyl being irreversable?

if hordenine sucks by itself what can be used to take with it to make good?


sorry for all the questions but you brought alot of stuff that now i am interested in. so i had no choice. ha!

I am no neuroscientist, haha, but I'm great at sounding smart.

Rhodiola is actually a MAO-A inhibitor, so it is more of mood enhancer than a focus enhancer, though it would do both. It increases dopamine, norepinephrine, and serotonin.

DMAA is a nasal decongestant that was originally found in geranium oil. Lilly patented it ages ago, but it became an orphan drug. It is a norepinephrine re-uptake inhibitor with a strange bell curve of effectiveness some claiming to have drowsiness if taken 100mg or more. I find I can take 50mg to 75mg without feeling sedated. It has a bit of a crash in some people and not in others. I notice a crash about 3 hours after taking 25mg, so I usually take 50mg and come down slower and take it 4x a day. It doesn't have a euphoria by itself, but combined with hordenine and coffee, you get pretty high. I wouldn't mess around with mixing it with stuff like those weight loss formulas do.

Yes, Strattera is Atomoxetine, and it is used to treat ADHD. It is quite expensive and comes with a variety of side effects for your body to choose from. It has very high affinity for NET (Ki of 5nM) and not so much for the other transporters (DAT being the 2nd highest at 77nM). It is a very powerful NET inhibitor - more so than Ritalin and Adderall at equivalent doses. Since it is generally considered non-addictive, both in pharmacology and in animal trials, so it is often prescribed as the first line of treatment for ADHD. However, the side effects are not desirable, and many discontinue use within the first week or two.

My Incredibly long list of food sources:

• Methionine is found in fish, dairy, meat, and whole grains.
• TMG is found in Quinoa, Spinach, Wheat bran, Lamb's quarters, and Beets.
• Choline is found in eggs, fish, beef, peanuts, and soy lecithin.
• Foods rich in B1 are whole wheat, yeast, oatmeal, flax and sunflower seeds, brown rice, whole grain rye, asparagus, kale, cauliflower, potatoes, oranges, liver (beef, pork, and chicken), and eggs.
• Foods rich in B6 are meats, whole grain products, vegetables, nuts and bananas.
• Foods rich in B9 are leafy vegetables such as spinach, asparagus, turnip greens; legumes such as dried or fresh beans, peas and lentils; egg yolks; baker's yeast; fortified grain products (pasta, cereal, bread); sunflower seeds; liver and liver products; kidney; moderate amounts: certain fruits (orange juice, canned pineapple juice, cantaloupe, honeydew melon, grapefruit juice, banana, raspberry, grapefruit and strawberry) and vegetables (beets, corn, tomato juice, vegetable juice, broccoli, brussels sprouts, romaine lettuce and bok choy), and beer..
• B12 comes from bacteria originally, but so it is mostly found in animals. Eggs, once thought to be a good source, are being researched further because they also have a compound that inhibits proper absorption of B12. Foods rich in B12 are clams, rainbow trout, salmon, haddock, yogurt, beef, tuna, milk, cheese, ham, and chicken.

SAMe is made from L-methionine and ATP via the enzyme Methionine Adenosyltransferase.

Deprenyl permanently inhibits MAO-B, meaning that it is not a reversible inhibitor (and not like a substrate). Your body takes 2 weeks to completely replace MAO-B.

To take full advantage of hordenine, you have to increase norepinephrine or dopamine in some other way using a CNS stimulant or another MAO inhibitor. Hordenine is therefore more to amplify the effects. I took it with DMAA and got a very instantaneous buzz just by swishing it around my mouth with water. Hordenine and DMAA don't have that effect alone. Coffee, Schizandrol A, probably DMAE to some extent, cocoa extract, ADHD meds, DMAA, Rhodiola, plants containing harmala alkaloids, tobacco, plain caffeine, sida cordifolia, plain ephedrine, pseudoephedrine, cocaine... I mean the list goes on. PEA (Phenethylamine) is often taken recreationally with hordenine, producing quite a jittery high from what I gather.

Yeah we totally hijacked this thread.

You might find this interesting: http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/9003072 Looks like the D4 receptor is also activated by norepinephrine and epinephrine as well as dopamine. Norepinephrine, which also activated Alpha-2A, therefore has a double dose of effectiveness on ADHD.

Edited by devinthayer, 03 August 2011 - 06:41 PM.

[X_Danny_X]

holy cow man thanks for your answers. yeah we hijack this thread but i believe the answers to the topic question was already answered. ha!

so taking Hordenine with Ritalin and Rhodiola would work then. also with some food. Rhodiola is meant for MAO-A, so Ritalin is for MAO-B?

now Deprenyl permanently inhibits MAO-B for 2 weeks, not forever. did i read that right??

since the B vitamins are good, then certainly Pyritinol would be a good addition to my stack.

[thedevinroy]

holy cow man thanks for your answers. yeah we hijack this thread but i believe the answers to the topic question was already answered. ha!

so taking Hordenine with Ritalin and Rhodiola would work then. also with some food. Rhodiola is meant for MAO-A, so Ritalin is for MAO-B?

now Deprenyl permanently inhibits MAO-B for 2 weeks, not forever. did i read that right??

since the B vitamins are good, then certainly Pyritinol would be a good addition to my stack.

Gosh Ritalin is not meant for MAO-B. Hordenine is meant for MAO-B. Ritalin is a dopamine and norepinephrine reuptake inhibitor, with almost twice as much affinity for the dopamine transporter. Hordenine and Rhodiola on top of Ritalin might make you high. If you need that much stimulation, then go for it, but it might make you all coked out and manic.

Deprenyl inhibits the MAO-B forever, but your body makes new MAO-B enzymes and gets rid of the old ones. It takes about two weeks to turn over the enzymes.

Pyritinol is fine if you aren't allergic to it. You never really know until you try.

Edited by devinthayer, 03 August 2011 - 08:48 PM.

[X_Danny_X]

i see, it would make me high. haha. well that is true, Ritalin from my understanding is very similar to cocaine in its chemical ring structure. so i will take then Ritalin alone first to see if that is enough, if not then I will add Hordenine.

is it okay to add Deprenyl if i am using Ritalin??

[thedevinroy]

i see, it would make me high. haha. well that is true, Ritalin from my understanding is very similar to cocaine in its chemical ring structure. so i will take then Ritalin alone first to see if that is enough, if not then I will add Hordenine.

is it okay to add Deprenyl if i am using Ritalin??

Deprenyl and Ritalin might seem to work at first, but as time goes on, Deprenyl will start to really kick in, and you might experience overstimulation. So, no, that would probably be too strong.