3 replies to this topic

[SouL RippeR]

Ok, here is something which I encountered today! :D
I started reading an article on changing sexes and all the implications of this.
Afterwards I started talking about this with a friend, and this question surged.
¿Is a shemale a men or a women?
By shemale I understand a men or women (in this case men) who goes through the operation of changing it's fisical appearance as well as their genitalea to be like the opposite sex.
I think that these shemales are women because ¿what consideres a man?
Its physical form? In the case of men it would be having big shoulders, beard, lots of hair, etc. In the operation they change this. So one less.
Its Sex? Well also the sex is changed during the operation (meaning genitalea).
Its psyque? In this case to be able to have the operation you have to take psycological treatment for 5 years.
So really after all this, after the operationare they men? or women?? [wacko]
I would consider them women! After all if they act, look, think and feel as women to me they are women! B)
But I want to hear what you guys think.
Thanks

[SouL RippeR]

By the way I talked with my girlfirend about this and we reached the same conclusion. We were talking about a case were a couple gets married and after 2 years of marriage the guy tells her wife he wants to have a baby (while they were driving on a highway). So the woman confesses that she cannot have a baby because she used to be a man. The guy got so angry that threw the woman out of the car at 80 km/h. Did he have the right? What was the problem there?
The conclusion we reached was that first of all the woman did wrong because she never told him, and he was wrong for having discriminated her. But the real point is, what did the guy do afterwards? IS she a woman or a man??
This question is troubling my mind (not that I want to have a sex change).
[B)]

[Lazarus Long]

Even by todays technology a surrogate women could have provided a womb to carry the couples child, who could have had both parents DNA combined in vitro and implanted into a fertilized ovum. This is not commonly done but is possible.

We also know how to use and combine the DNA of two women together and fertilize an ovum without the presence of sperm, externally to the body. These are not science fiction these are techniques that are not commonly known about but were developed to aid infertile couples and have broad ramifications.
Soon I theorize that we will develop truly androgynous capable DNA archetypes that allow a person to adopt either male or female characteristics on demand.

We can also develop means by which a complete sex change can be accomplished through transplants in either direction. Recently the first womb transplant was accomplished and the use of cadaver organs is becoming more viable as the rejection problems are solved. The ramifications are significant and Iwould suggest that a more salient question is how do we define gender in a transhumanist sense if the concept of gender specific behavior is not predetermined by birth but rather an elective characteristic?

Also we need to ask what relationship the behavioral roles played by parents with regard to their children plays with defining gender, and is the role of gender purely procreative and if there is no desire for children does that nullify the importance of gender as a social issue?

This is a very fertile topic.

[SouL RippeR]

how do we define gender in a transhumanist sense if the concept of gender specific behavior is not predetermined by birth but rather an elective characteristic?

Also we need to ask what relationship the behavioral roles played by parents with regard to their children plays with defining gender, and is the role of gender purely procreative and if there is no desire for children does that nullify the importance of gender as a social issue?

Hey lazarus,

Yeah I'm very interested about this topic becuase it has been on my mind for several days now.
Regarding your point of view, yeah I agree with you and in response to your question I think that in the definition of "gender" we would have to think about it as a whole and not as specific interactions, characteristics or traits. But the second question is even deeper because this is something which affects everything. Just recently talking about this with someone else I heard the case of a young child who was born with both sexes, but the parents always treated him as a boy so his "male" side predominated over his "female" side. So I think this would answer to your question. More than DNA, technology or operations I think that the ones who decide over the gender psycologically speaking, would be our parents and close relatives. The example: My mom just made me cut my long hair because she said "I must look like a man". Is "man" defined by hair??? Is a person who has long hair not a man just because of this? Mhmmmmmmm.... []
Gender IS a social issue, it's dictated by society. In early english society, men used wigs. In the greek society, it was socially accepted that a man had sex with another man. So what is this gender? This is what I'm thinking! [!] And if I have sex with a girl and later find out that she changed her sex, what would I do?? What would I do if I knew before hand?? Would I accept it and go along? Would I reject it? I have an ethical conflict which I can't solve because we are dealing with tabooes and perceptions and as a result it's an OPTICAL ILLUSION! [ggg]
jejejejeje