11 replies to this topic

[OdysseyIII]

This looks like an optimum forum for getting started intelligently on nootropics and other supplements. I've been lurking here for a while, trying to find the time to put something together.

First the highlights:

50 year old male, 200 lbs in adequate health. Blood pressure normal. No allergies, can't remember the last time I had a cold or flu.
7-8 hours sleep seems to do alright, but wish I could get by with less. Don't eat as well as I have in the past and could probably add some nutritional suggestions to what I hope will be my new regimen.


Depression/dysthymia since 20s (shared genetic trait; the family that mopes together, dopes together?) Have ridden the course many common depression meds. Off the top of my head, Nardil, Prozac, Wellbutrin, Paxil, Zoloft, Effexor,....
My analysis of AD meds: 1. Effectiveness 2.Tolerable side-effects 3.Long term results ….you can only pick TWO.

ADD+ I can't hold conversation if there is a television on, even with the sound off. (refuse to get cable for that very reason. Wife not happy, but grudgingly accepts.)
I can't walk to the garage to get a tool for an otherwise simple task without seeing some OTHER simple task that immediately becomes more important, have a growing list of tasks that never get done despite feeling like i was busy all day. Can't retain anything from a phone conversation. Tend to write in fragments instead of complete sentences.

Increasingly frequent anxiety/panic attacks, mostly occurring around 3-4 in the afternoon

Currently taking:
Cymbalta -- recently increased from 90 to 120mg, but no improvement
Adderall, 2-3x -- usually sublingual and lately taken with magnesium and pinch of baking soda (supposed to potentiate effects and decrease tolerance buildup)
Alprozalam .5-1mg but only when anxiety/panic gets too bad. While I like the relaxing effect, the primary source of anxiety is not having the focus or energy to get things done, so it's counter-productive.

Drinking
Shot of tequila or irish whiskey immediately eliminates depression, anxiety and that hollow ache in my chest. However, i can't have a even a sip of beer while the sun is up, because it knocks me right out.
Drinking at night has opposite effect- can't seem to have enough, get very motivated, never seem to get "drunk"

I should probably quit drinking, but I need some kind of replacement for the social lubrication. Also something to curb the cravings.

Smoked a pack a day until about 2 years ago and haven't had a single puff or craving since getting hooked on the e-cig. No temptation at all.
Occasional 420, maybe 2x a week.

A combination of doctor's recommendations, my own research and overheard conversations currently has me eating these supplements:

Morning ritual, usually without breakfast:
2-3 cups coffee
Adderall 20mg sublingual

Mid-morning after some kind of snack:

Generic Multi
Fish Oil 4-5g Costco Brand
B12 5000mcg sublingual
Vitamin C. 2-3g Costco
DHEA 50mg
Lysine 1000mg
Magnesium 450mg
Chromium 200mcg
Cymbalta 120mg

Mid-afternoon:
Adderall 20mg

(10mg adderall if working late)

Before bed:
Melatonin 3mg + Theanine 25mg Costco 1 or 2 before bed

Any of those seem like a waste? Any that shouldn't be taken at the same time or even the same week of the items listed below?

Nootropic experience
I've dabbled with piracetam, picolimin and deprenyl, but that was a while back before I found this forum. Didn't know much about dosage, absorption, choline amounts, synergy, etc. Hence, I'm not sure I could see any difference.
Have had good response with Adrafinil @ 1200mg. Recently received 60x200mg of Modafinil ($99, Spier brand, mixed reports, but it's the cheapest I found) and that seems to work well for staying awake without adverse stimulation
Gingko and St Johns Wort taken regularly (but only once a day in the morning) didn't do much, but both have been cheap grocery store brands.

Looking for help with a stack for the following goals:
Alleviating depression and hopefully getting off Cymbalta
Clearing persistent brain fog and learning to focus on one thing at a time
More energy on less sleep. (ideally, I'd love to find the pill that completely but safely eliminates the biological requirement for sleep. I'd wait in line all night for that one…..cue snare flam, crickets chirping) Why, you may well ask? I feel like time is running out and I'd simply rather be DOING stuff; building, learning, repairing, practicing, cleaning, improving....instead of just lying down for hours every night- breathing slowly, not moving,, wasting time.


From what I've spent too much time reading about, these all seem to be good candidates for my goals:

Piracetam (or other -cetams if the cost benefit is worth it.)
Modafinil
Phenibut (not daily, but how often is safe?)
Theanine
Choline
Rhodiola
ALCAR
Tyrosine
Taurine
SAM-e

Am I missing anything?

Clearly, I need more information on contraindications and timing of dosages. Only issue that has ever given me a yellow flag (increased anxiety and heart rate) was taking 5-HTP with my morning handful. I stopped that immediately.

I have no problem with alternate methods of administration if in service of higher efficiency/bioavailability. I've always been a fan of reduced dosage taken sublingually. Foul-tasting powders are tolerable if I can get better results. Wouldn't mind making some kind of bulk powder smoothie shake and chugging it all down.

If you've read this far, thanks. If you have suggestions, advice, experience, derisive criticism, etc., thanks all the more. I don't really have anyone locally to talk to.

Please don't say, "Ask your doctor", because I've yet to meet with one who has even heard of nootropics. A few years back, my forum lurking saved my dad from prostate surgery because his urologist had never heard of brachytherapy. When Cymbalta first came out, I had to tell my own doctor about it.

Thanks!

[lourdaud]

For me the racetams didn't improve mood at all, rather the contrary.. Although I really like Aniracetam, and I think it could be great for a musician. Modafinil is anxiogenic, but keeps you awake. Don't think you oughta add Phenibut if you're already taking Alpra (don't you get any rebound from that btw?)

I got similar issues, and currently I'm waiting for Memantine (as conjunctive therapy with dexamphetamine) and Naltrexone (to try out LDN - "Low Dose Naltrexone").. Hoping this will do a lot for depression, SA, etc.. Suggest you check them out but I don't know anything about the safety in this, might be risky but what don't you do to feel good? Hah
Also, you might see an improvement in anxiety problems if you swap the Adderal with dexamphetamine, does a great deal for me.. And maybe exchange the Cymbalta for a Mirtazapine, that should improve sleep and reduce anxiety and hopefully you'll still benefit from the motivational effects that you get from a higher dose of Mirtazapine..

[OdysseyIII]

Thank you for a quick response. There's so much information to sift through!

I was hoping ample quantity or quality of piracetam, combined with a choline supplement, would give me more mental clarity and focus. Maybe something else to improve mood. You're right about the modafinil keeping me awake, but it's not an unpleasant stimulation. Plus, I WANT to be awake more and sleep less.

I don't take the alpra every day and based on what I've read, I wouldn't combine it with the Phenibut. I was hoping the Phenibut or something else on my list could act as a substitute.

Another of my goals is to get off the amphetamine for something better. I don't see that swapping the Addy for the Dex would help in that regard. I'm not looking to improve my sleep- I sleep fine - I'm simply looking to do LESS of it.

Cheers!

[lourdaud]

The Piracetam + choline will probably help with brain fog but you may get more depressed on it.. I like ALCAR, makes my thoughts much clearer..

Phenibut could probably work as a substitute but you'll develop tolerance to it very rapidly.. personally I like it better than benzos in the sense that it gives you a much clearer anxiety relief, although it's not as total...

The reason I mentioned Dex is that you said you're suffering from anxiety. Adderal is much more anxiogenic.
Hope you'll be able to get off the amphs, wish you good luck. I've tried but for me it's not worth it, the benefits I get from 'em is too profound.

Improved sleep = need for less of it. Best thing I've ever done is going to bed at 9 pm and waking up at 5 am, by doing this I'm able to work and study pretty much the whole day..

[Cephalon]

Did you try to substitute the Xanax with Theanine? For me it works just as good.
I see you take it in 25-50mg dosis. This is supposed to be a heavy tea drinker's daily intake, but in me it does not have much effect in such a low dose. Did you try it at 200mg?
Did you ever try Ritalin instead od the amphetamine? You might have fewer issues with anxity and depression on this.
While I find Piractam to be anxiogenic, Aniracetam just acts the opposite way.
I agree that a musician might benefit from Aniracetam since it increases (in me) audiotory perception.

[OdysseyIII]

Update for me if nothing else.

Started 1st day (tues Sept 6) with 1g ALCAR and 500mg Rhodiola Rosea (both powders from SP). 200mg Spier modafinil and a 1mg NOW Methyl B-12.
Best I've felt in months! Alert, focused and energized all day and late into the evening. Will it last!

Ran out of Cymbalta on Thursday and only had 60mg left (I'm on 120mg a day). Fortunately, was able to score some Friday night so didn't miss a day. Ran out of Adderall last weekend and apparently, I'm not the only one having problems getting a script filled. Every pharmacy within 15 miles is out of stock or only getting one bottle at a time and not taking reservations.

Despite the great feelings from Tuesday, I think the Rhodiola is actually making me tired. Everytime since then I've taken it, I start crashing about 4 hours later. Is this a symptom of under or over dosage? Not taking any of it today to see what happens.
Piracetam powder should arrive today or tomorrow. I'm concerned I don't have a choline source on hand (other than eggs, but how many do I need?) I've read a few places that ALCAR acts as a choline source or is converted into what the piracetam needs.

More later,

[adiosameobas]

honestly if you are looking to curb alcohol cravings, topamax, or generic topiramate worked wonders for me, i had a very similar situation, though i was taking way more amphetamine and drinking way more alcohol. but nevertheless, a lower dosage should work to curb if not eradicate cravings for booze, some people say it creates a severe brain fog and call it dopamax but i never really got any of that and im on 200mg daily (100 2x). Naltrexone really is more of a placebo than anything IMO. and it can have some dampening effects on dopamine from what i understand. though don't quote me on this.... i found it worked for a week and then i was off to the races again...

I had been taking adderall for years and was switched to Vyvanse--- lysdexamfetamine desmesylate---, which as you can read about in various places online 'defeats' the 'need' for redosing....but if you are chasing the euphoria....you probably will end up redosing anyway....and be up for a few days. but they probably have it in stock at the pharmacy!

ultimately, I was switched (switched myself) to Nuvigil, which I prefer immensely to any amphetamine or first gen ADD psych. stim. taking my 250mg dose in the morning, at say 4am, keeps me going basically all day....and all the key features of amphetamines/methylphenidate are there, motivation, interest, the quick on-the-fly wit. etc and most of the drawbacks... social anxiety paranoia/ psychosis/ mental decline and so on........are so far.... lacking....even without much sleep....which i usually do end up catching up on

. im also taking ALCAR+ALA and piracetam with choline and a few other things here and there. expiramenting.....


I dont know much about cymbalta but i steer clear of SSRI's. Not saying that you should but, i found it decreased my ability to think clearly and focus. I think though cymbalta inhibits reuptake Norepineph. as well? I dont remember at the moment.

benzo's greatly reduce your ability to remember things, as does alcohol. and coincidentally, both are depressants. for panic attacks there are other less addictive medicines out there as well like beta blockers, such as propranolol, and alpha adregenic agonists like clonidine----clonidine is also FDA approved (like is cousin drug guanfacine) to help alleviate symptoms of AD/HD....

so all in all. i think there are some avenues to persue there. i mean, it sounds like you know what you want. you just have to be willing to try something different, in order to obtain a different result. few more things are meditation and excersize. both of those can help naturally reduce anxiety and increase focus.

good luck.

[angela86]

Honestly, if you're trying to avoid alcohol - I would look into Lituium orate. It's a trace mineral that a lot of people don't get enough of in their diet that's incredibly bioavailable .. on top of that, I know it is supposed to help with both ADD and alcoholism. Ar at the least, curb alcohol cravings. Start with a low dosage otherwise it's inevitably you're going to become drowsy - which is the opposite of what you're aiming for - but based on what you're saying, I really think it's worth a shot.

[angela86]

*Orotate. My bad.

[hooter]

Try to steer clear of adderall and SSRIs.

[angela86]

Concur, Hooter.

[hooter]

Rhodiola is a slight maoi, don't take with SSRIs or amphetamine or you're risking serotonin toxicity.

The problems people are experiencing with Piracetam is a question of dosage. Drop the amphetamine and try piracetam for at least a month of high dose use. Whether it's comfortable or not, it'll help.

Piracetam used to make me depressed but after enough use and increasing my dosage I've gotten rid of my depression entirely. It's great of ADD + music so I would try that first and foremost. Make sure to take a lot of fish oil at the same time as piracetam. I'd try it daily for at least 2 months before making a judgement. Avoid stimulants while on it.

Choline is what's causing the depression imho. Since I replaced it with fish oil, no depression whatsoever.

Cheers!

Edited by hooter, 22 January 2012 - 09:13 AM.