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Help! - Why is there Choline in ViMMORTAL ?


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#1 hallucinogen

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Posted 25 August 2011 - 08:53 PM


Greetings !,
Vimmortal has a greatly superior formula in every aspect, including ratio, dosage, combination and molecule form,
and it has exactly all the essential vitamins and minerals a human body needs and as little of extra stuff as possible, so as not to compromise the dosage of the essential elements...

But, i just completely DO NOT Understand WHY there is Choline in it, and as a matter of fact - why there is ANY possible Nootropic in our best and only Multi-Vitamin formulation ever, - it is a Completely Non-Essential, UN-Natural addition, which should be revised immediately,
it exerts Absolutely no positive effect on most people, and in-fact it does quite the Opposite -
for example, i fail to grasp why after taking a single dose of Vimmortal, i have to put up with the most severe Mental Fogginess for at least HALF the day or More !

The thing is, - i'm Raw Vegan, and i don't have any major or any at all choline sources consumed in my diet, and even taking that in account, - i absolutely DO NOT need it in my diet, nor do i want it in my diet,
because of Choline in Vimmortal - all i can mostly do is stare in space until it wears off... ( also makes you sleepy at first, and then gives you insomnia after a while, if i recall correctly from personal experience )

I am very disappointed in this, because originally i was truly ecstatic about Vimmortal and every other ingredient in it, but someone, somewhere, just had to go a little bit overboard and mix a Nootropic into purely Essential Multi-Vitamin formulation which it was originally supposed to be, to minimize all and every side-effect possible, and ultimately to improve health and extend the life-span .

I very kindly ask you to please direct this feedback to the right place and people, and revise our formula as soon as possible,
because it is SOOO VERY CLOSE TO PERFECTiON, but Choline renders it almost completely unusable for myself, and Many other people, and i still have 3 bottles left ...

And to be honest, anyone who might say that they do not feel Choline supplement effect, are either already regularly taking in some from their diet, and/or simply not sensitive enough to it or to supplements in general, perhaps partially because of their life-long diet, lifestyle, or receptor concentration per area .

Thank you, and I'm looking forward for serious and meaningful replies to get this revised ( i just really do not want to repost this, - let's get it finally done right and get it done quick ) .

And yes, i also tried taking many different Choline sources separately, including Alpha-GPC ( which is considered to be a superior source then the one found in Vimmortal ) with same effect .

Even fish oil exerts a similar effect, but that should come to no surprise .

#2 Anthony_Loera

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Posted 25 August 2011 - 11:38 PM

Choline is extremely important for memory and brain function, and many dont take enough. However, it does increase the amount of pills in Vimmortal... so we are considering changing this in the next version of Vimmortal.

Some interesting Choline references:
==========================================================
J. K. Blusztajn. "Choline, a vital amine," Science 281: 794-795 (1998).

Kovacheva VP, Mellott TJ, Davison JM, Wagner N, Lopez-Coviella I, Schnitzler AC, Blusztajn JK Gestational choline deficiency causes global and Igf2 gene DNA hypermethylation by up-regulation of Dnmt1 expression. J Biol Chem. 2007 Oct 26;282(43):31777-88.

W. H. Meck, R. A. Smith, and C. L. Williams. "Organizational changes in cholinergic activity and enhanced visuospatial memory as a function of choline administered prenatally or postnatally or both," Behav Neurosci 103: 1234-1241 (1989).

W. H. Meck and C. L. Williams. "Perinatal choline supplementation increases the threshold for chunking in spatial memory," Neuroreport 8: 3053-3059 (1997).

W. H. Meck and C. L. Williams. "Simultaneous temporal processing is sensitive to prenatal choline availability in mature and aged rats," Neuroreport 8: 3045-3051 (1997).

Zeisel SH. Gene response elements, genetic polymorphisms and epigenetics influence the human dietary requirement for choline. IUBMB Life. 2007 Jun;59(6):380-7.

S.H. Zeisel, M.H. Mar, J.C. Howe, J.M. Holden, Concentrations of choline-containing compounds and betaine in common foods, J Nutr 133 (2003) 1302-1307.
==========================================================

A

Edited by Anthony_Loera, 25 August 2011 - 11:39 PM.

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#3 stephen_b

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Posted 26 August 2011 - 12:14 AM

Also, see Choline and Fatty Liver.

#4 nameless

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Posted 26 August 2011 - 12:53 AM

It's unfortunately also the wrong form of choline... or at least not the safest form (referencing mouse-CVD study).

I'd like to see either a no-choline version or if you are going to include it, go with lecithin.

If you plan a newer version, will you open it up for discussion, like we did for the original? I'm sure there are some minor changes people would like some input on.

Edited by nameless, 26 August 2011 - 12:54 AM.


#5 niner

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Posted 26 August 2011 - 01:31 AM


But, i just completely DO NOT Understand WHY there is Choline in it, and as a matter of fact - why there is ANY possible Nootropic in our best and only Multi-Vitamin formulation ever, - it is a Completely Non-Essential, UN-Natural addition, which should be revised immediately,
it exerts Absolutely no positive effect on most people, and in-fact it does quite the Opposite -
for example, i fail to grasp why after taking a single dose of Vimmortal, i have to put up with the most severe Mental Fogginess for at least HALF the day or More !

The thing is, - i'm Raw Vegan, and i don't have any major or any at all choline sources consumed in my diet, and even taking that in account, - i absolutely DO NOT need it in my diet, nor do i want it in my diet,
because of Choline in Vimmortal - all i can mostly do is stare in space until it wears off... ( also makes you sleepy at first, and then gives you insomnia after a while, if i recall correctly from personal experience )


[...]

Even fish oil exerts a similar effect, but that should come to no surprise .

My understanding is that choline was included because many people are deficient. I'm sorry that you have a bad response to it. You aren't the only one to report that, and I'm sure this was not anticipated by the design group.

Actually, I'm quite surprised that fish oil elicits the same effect. That's the first time I've heard that. Are you taking a modest dose of fish oil, like a gram or two?

#6 hallucinogen

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Posted 26 August 2011 - 04:41 PM

Choline is extremely important for memory and brain function, and many dont take enough. However, it does increase the amount of pills in Vimmortal... so we are considering changing this in the next version of Vimmortal.

Some interesting Choline references:
==========================================================
J. K. Blusztajn. "Choline, a vital amine," Science 281: 794-795 (1998).

Kovacheva VP, Mellott TJ, Davison JM, Wagner N, Lopez-Coviella I, Schnitzler AC, Blusztajn JK Gestational choline deficiency causes global and Igf2 gene DNA hypermethylation by up-regulation of Dnmt1 expression. J Biol Chem. 2007 Oct 26;282(43):31777-88.

W. H. Meck, R. A. Smith, and C. L. Williams. "Organizational changes in cholinergic activity and enhanced visuospatial memory as a function of choline administered prenatally or postnatally or both," Behav Neurosci 103: 1234-1241 (1989).

W. H. Meck and C. L. Williams. "Perinatal choline supplementation increases the threshold for chunking in spatial memory," Neuroreport 8: 3053-3059 (1997).

W. H. Meck and C. L. Williams. "Simultaneous temporal processing is sensitive to prenatal choline availability in mature and aged rats," Neuroreport 8: 3045-3051 (1997).

Zeisel SH. Gene response elements, genetic polymorphisms and epigenetics influence the human dietary requirement for choline. IUBMB Life. 2007 Jun;59(6):380-7.

S.H. Zeisel, M.H. Mar, J.C. Howe, J.M. Holden, Concentrations of choline-containing compounds and betaine in common foods, J Nutr 133 (2003) 1302-1307.
==========================================================

A


Thank you Anthony for a very helpful reply as always , - I am sure of that Choline has many benefits and i'm leaning more and more towards including some in my diet, - and I think i'm beginning to realize that the reaction i had was towards the initial dosage of Choline, because my tolerance to it was so low, and if given the appropriate time to adjust, - at least a week or so, then the body should get used to it and balance it out, reducing side-effects to zero, and projecting only the ever-increasing benefits forward,
btw, i would stay away from any form of lecithin, especially soy lecithin, that's way worse then what is currently found in Vimmortal,

"Lecithin is not the cheapest choline source, as it have only 13% choline, vs around 40% for alpha GPC and CDP choline. If you take that under account then the price is about the same per 1mg choline. Additionally, Lecithin has omega 6 which promote blood clots, and inflammation."

Alpha-GPC over CDP Choline ->
" There is no study that prove CDP choline effective for healthy subjects but there are 2 studies that indicate the contrary. A study shows it to be useless for healthy normal people at a dose of 1000 mg/day and effective only for those with inefficient memory. Another study done with animals shows that it doesn't help the young rats living in normal conditions but it helped only those living in impoverished environment. Unlike CDP choline, alpha GPC proved beneficial for healthy young volunteers with no memory problems (page 2-3). There is a study in that document that focuses on GPC's potential to reverse scopolamin induced dysfunctions but moreover, alpha GPC improved cognitive abilities prior to scopolamine administration compared to controls. "

But even if you experience a cognitive enhancement over baseline while taking Alpha-GPC, after stopping it, it reverts and dips down below the original baseline...

Also even if you experience a better recall or memory while taking it ( even though most people do not experience any extraordinary benefits while taking it) , - there is usually still a lingering mental fog that never completely goes away and interferes with the normal lifestyle and natural daily activities...

"I must admit that Alpha GPC is tricky. It sometimes gives me an obvious sense of concentration not mistakable for placebo, improved verbal skills, a calm and slightly improved reasoning, it even benefits a little bit my executive function after not getting enough sleep. Other times it gives me a weird, dull mood, unwilling to say anything or talking to anyone, sleepiness even if I get a good night sleep. These side effects are not because of choline overload.They are not dose dependent, at least for me, and they occur from time to time even when I use it rarely, on low doses like 300 mg/a day. There are consecutive days when I take 1200 mg/a day and I don't experience side effects and sometimes I almost fall asleep after taking just 300 mg even if I take a break from it for a week or a few days before. "

- So we should figure out exactly what kind of food interactions with Alpha-GPC could be causing that...

"I took about 100mg of alpha GPC twice a day for about a week, and while I took it I felt an urge to exercise and eat more.

I stopped after that week, and I couldn't remember or think for a month after, and I am not sure if I am yet back to my normal self. I knew that I remember stuff, but I couldn't access it, I knew I can figure something out, but I just couldn't figure it out. I felt like these old folks, that say excuse me, my memory or reasoning is not as sharp as it used to be.

I think that my neurons got used to the high level of acetylcholine, or were fried due to that high level, and when I stopped that high level by stopping the alpha GPC they didn't receive enough signal to be activated, and they couldn't adapt, or were fried. I hope that my situation would improve.

Due to my experience, I think that taking alpha GPC can be counterproductive, so be careful. I would avoid taking something that would force me to be dependent on it just for not becoming a senile idiot when I stop. If you would look at the reviews over these products, you would see people who write that their condition deteriorate immediately after stopping to take the supplement. All the research that I saw with choline variants were made with rats, or sick people, which may benefit from higher levels of neural signals, as it may bring their levels to normal levels, but I don't see a reason to believe that a higher than normal neural signals levels correlate with better memory or intelligence, and I didn't see any research that showed that taking this stuff make your memory or intelligence better after you take it for enough time to get used to it, in order to show that the measured effect is sustainable and not just a transient effect. "




the other very important and vital thing is that because of such a diverse body chemistry among our Vimmortal users, and such broad Choline sensitivity spectrum, - everyone should be able to choose or not to take it on the side or not, also do their own tolerance mapping, and choose the best form of Choline for them .

It's just one of those super tricky supplements that borderlines on the optional side, - I would now recommend though that everyone should try to find the form of Choline that works for them the best and try to get through at least the first week or 2 of taking it, because it should only get better after that as your body begins to adjust itself to pure Harmony .

Again though, keeping everything that was said in account, I will definitely stand by my original feedback which is to remove Choline out of Vimmortal, which would also entail many benefits such as reducing the number of pills in a daily dosage .

And of course, after there is no more Choline, that will open doors to more of intelligent and advanced discussion of how to make it even better, as new research comes in, and also because the positive effects will no longer be blurred by it's presence, and everyone would be able to feel the other ingredients much clearer .

It is, without a shadow of a doubt, a Win-Win situation ! (;

Also a quick poll -> Does anyone know of superior Choline source to Alpha-GPC ?

#7 hallucinogen

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Posted 29 August 2011 - 05:31 PM

And we often talk about Earth #2, and increasing our brain power, and how are we ever to accomplish that if we continuously hinder our natural mental processes by certain different nootropics,
today i came to conclusion, that even though I was waiting for Vimmortal for the longest time, I wont be able to take it again until the new version comes out, because it makes me feel like a zombie even at half the dose, even at 2 caps :(
A bit disappointed ? - Yes, but patience and solid feedback from reliable sources is the key, especially from personal experiences .

And to have the most reliable personal experience feedback, I believe that everyone should re-discover their true natural baseline by a fasting technique + coupled with pure raw vegan diet for at least a month while taking 0 supplements, and letting your body come into perfect balance and harmony .

Then i'd recommend slowly bringing in about 25-50g a day of pure protein isolates + plant enzymes mix, even 25g a day is generally enough, i'd be careful with all fats, except maybe a teaspoon of virgin olive oil a day ( even though i avoid oils now, i just found some really awesome sprouted grain wraps which more than suffice, and one of them has some flax seeds in them )

- the beauty here is if you do this calorie restriction just right, which is also so far one of the only proven ways to extend lifespan, your body will adjust itself to store and burn energy and nutrients way more efficiently and through new metabolic ways, also eliminating production of unnecessary waste .
( i'm 200lbs and I usually consume about 700-1500 calories a day, all while fast-walking/jogging twice a day )
Also the only liquid i consume now is pure water, not even a tea anymore .

The only thing missing after this is new version of Vimmortal, because i know that i'm not getting all the essential vitamins/minerals from my diet as of now, and I have been Imminst member since way way back, and it is all of our efforts and support which have made our advanced community into what it is today !

Cheers .

#8 niner

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Posted 30 August 2011 - 03:13 AM

i'm 200lbs and I usually consume about 700-1500 calories a day, all while fast-walking/jogging twice a day

Wow man, you aren't going to be 200lbs for long! Someone is gonna need a new wardrobe. :)
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#9 hallucinogen

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Posted 02 September 2011 - 01:34 AM

i'm 200lbs and I usually consume about 700-1500 calories a day, all while fast-walking/jogging twice a day

Wow man, you aren't going to be 200lbs for long! Someone is gonna need a new wardrobe. :)


Man, i've been at 200 for over 10 years now ... that's my static weight too




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