42 replies to this topic

[abelard lindsay]

Hmm... Let me analyze this female product

Cantharantus roseus - Alkaloid extracts have been looked into as an anti Lymphoma and Hodgkins Disease treatment. Some components cause toxic side effects (http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/3691399) (http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/15615402). Almost sounds like chemotherapy! Not a menopause treatment!

yohimbine (in Rauvolfia serpentina) - Associated with cases of liver toxicity in other supplement combinations. This is the only one of these I've taken. Made me feel like I was going to die of a caffeine overdose when I took it once.

Black Cohosh: http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/20130783 - Causes Liver Injury in some people, 'nough said.

I didn't find anything liver related with regards to the other ingredients.

In general I would strongly recommend avoiding kitchen sink supplements. It's much much better to research each ingredient carefully and to take them separately.

Edited by abelard lindsay, 26 September 2011 - 02:24 AM.

[ajnast4r]

Fair enough. So how many liver failures caused by which supplements out of your experience you're able to recall?

black cohosh, green tea, hydroxycut, kava, etc... enough to warrant caution.

[pamojja]

Fair enough. So how many liver failures caused by which supplements out of your experience you're able to recall?

black cohosh, green tea, hydroxycut, kava, etc... enough to warrant caution.

Surely, Cohosh isn't a person you recall having suffered a liver failure?

More seriously again: ...So? ..None?

In my eyes it's something completely different to advise due diligence in supplement use, than suggesting that carelessness in this respect could easily cause liver failure, for which you still haven't the personal experience of even one certain case!

To the first I fully subscribe, the second is really useless, if not harmful fear-mongering.


Personally I don't even like to use proprietary brands, where it's impossible to know the effects (or side-effects) of it's individual ingredients at which doses. And with only 2 of such blends, ingredients could overlap and one could indeed be in for a bad surprise. Specially with potent herbs as in this formula I would want to be able to start with the lowest possible dose of each of them, and slowly titrate to catch any side-effects early. Or I would want to be able to cycle..

Though most of the time supplements have a huge therapeutic dosage range, that doesn't mean they are merely harmless placebo. But indeed are able to have strong effects, which with so many unforeseeable interactions with one's individual bio-chemistry, I think much diligence is really adviseable.

However, how much more with medicines, which indeed caused countless documented liver-failures?

[pamojja]

Personally I don't even like to use proprietary brands, where it's impossible to know the effects..

Well one exception would be LIV.52, which at a partial dose dose within a few months helped my aching liver to revert to normal - after 7 malaria attacks within 3 years and as many anti-malarial medication.

[pycnogenol]

Personally I don't even like to use proprietary brands, where it's impossible to know the effects
(or side-effects) of it's individual ingredients at which doses.

Totally agree. I stay away from any and all proprietary supplement products.
I need to know exactly what I'm taking. If companies don't disclose then I don't
give them any of my money. Simple as that.

[ajnast4r]

Surely, Cohosh isn't a person you recall having suffered a liver failure?

knowing the person is irrelevant... whether there is documentation or not is the key.

In my eyes it's something completely different to advise due diligence in supplement use, than suggesting that carelessness in this respect could easily cause liver failure, for which you still haven't the personal experience of even one certain case!

again... documentation is the key. there are plenty of documented cases of supplements injuring people, liver or otherwise. i dont think i've made any broad sweeping 'watch your liver' generalizations or anything that even deserves a mention of fear mongering. carelessness in respect to supplement use could indeed and has caused liver failure in people... this is a fact.

all i did was emphasize the importance of people having the ability to really understand the science on the supplements they are taking and not take anything based simply on someone(or companies) recommendation.

[pamojja]

again... documentation is the key. there are plenty of documented cases of supplements injuring people, liver or otherwise. i dont think i've made any broad sweeping 'watch your liver' generalizations or anything that even deserves a mention of fear mongering. carelessness in respect to supplement use could indeed and has caused liver failure in people... this is a fact.

Would you be so kind to give sources?

Zero Deaths from Vitamins, Minerals, Amino Acids or Herbs
Poison Control Statistics Prove Supplements' Safety Yet Again

(OMNS Jan 5, 2011) There was not even one death caused by a dietary supplement in 2009, according to the most recent information collected by the U.S. National Poison Data System.
The new 200-page annual report of the American Association of Poison Control Centers, published in the journal Clinical Toxicology, shows zero deaths from multiple vitamins; zero deaths from any of the B vitamins; zero deaths from vitamins A, C, D, or E; and zero deaths from any other vitamin.
Additionally, there were no deaths whatsoever from any amino acid, herb, or dietary mineral supplement.
Two people died from non-nutritional mineral poisoning, one from a sodium salt and one from an iron salt or iron. On page 1139, the AAPCC report specifically indicates that the iron fatality was not from a nutritional supplement. One other person is alleged to have died from an "Unknown Dietary Supplement or Homeopathic Agent." This claim remains speculative, as no verification information was provided.
60 poison centers provide coast-to-coast data for the U.S. National Poison Data System, "one of the few real-time national surveillance systems in existence, providing a model public health surveillance system for all types of exposures, public health event identification, resilience response and situational awareness tracking."
Over half of the U.S. population takes daily nutritional supplements. Even if each of those people took only one single tablet daily, that makes 155,000,000 individual doses per day, for a total of nearly 57 billion doses annually. Since many persons take more than just one vitamin or mineral tablet, actual consumption is considerably higher, and the safety of nutritional supplements is all the more remarkable.
If nutritional supplements are allegedly so "dangerous," as the FDA and news media so often claim, then where are the bodies?

Reference:
Bronstein AC, Spyker DA, Cantilena LR Jr, Green JL, Rumack BH, Giffin SL. 2009 Annual Report of the American Association of Poison Control Centers' National Poison Data System (NPDS): 27th Annual Report. Clinical Toxicology (2010). 48, 979-1178. The full text article is available for free download at http://www.aapcc.org...0/2009%20AR.pdf
The data mentioned above are found in Table 22B, journal pages 1138-1148.

This article may be reprinted free of charge provided 1) that there is clear attribution to the Orthomolecular Medicine News Service, and 2) that both the OMNS free subscription link http://orthomolecula.../subscribe.html and also the OMNS archive link http://orthomolecula...mns/index.shtml are included.

Compare this to the numerous fatalities from pharmaceuticals. For aspirin alone around 60 each year.

[maxwatt]

Aspirin is more widely used than any supplement, I'd think. But if aspirin were undergoing FDA drug approval today, it would be rejected because of its side effects.

The hysteria over an atypical death associated ephedrine use led to its ban in New York, despite its relative safety compared to many drugs. It's the perception of hazard that leads to action, not the actual threat level itself. Automobiles kill more people than any drug or supplement, and no one considers banning them, or even considering reasonable measures to mitigate the hazzards. The risk is far greater than death-by-terrorism, yet guess which most people worry about more.

[pamojja]

Automobiles kill more people than any drug or supplement, and no one considers banning them, or even considering reasonable measures to mitigate the hazzards.

Count me as one.
However, only within a democratic process for which the time isn't ripe for.

So meanwhile the focus remains on supplements and terrorists ...help to distract from the real dangers one alone seemingly couldn't do anything anyway about.

[niner]

again... documentation is the key. there are plenty of documented cases of supplements injuring people, liver or otherwise. i dont think i've made any broad sweeping 'watch your liver' generalizations or anything that even deserves a mention of fear mongering. carelessness in respect to supplement use could indeed and has caused liver failure in people... this is a fact.

Would you be so kind to give sources?

There have been a number of injuries and deaths from supplements. Some of them have been discussed here over the years. I don't feel like digging up references at the moment. That pharmaceuticals are more dangerous than most supplements is irrelevant. The important point here is that the attitude that "supplements and herbs can't hurt me" is just wrong.

[ajnast4r]

Would you be so kind to give sources?

all you have to do is google/pubmed _____ liver failure. I'm not sure why you keep bringing up the pharmaceutical industry, but its completely irrelevant. you are pretty much proving my point here, arguing that what im saying is incorrect without doing any research, when just a little research will prove to you that it is correct...

for the sake of argument, and this will be my last, here is one thing i grabbed off pubmed... and there are MANY more. do your research.


http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/12381254

Med J Aust. 2002 Oct 21;177(8):440-3.
Black cohosh and other herbal remedies associated with acute hepatitis.
Whiting PW, Clouston A, Kerlin P.
Source

Princess Alexandra Hospital, Woolloongabba, QLD, Australia.
Abstract

Six patients presented with clinical, biochemical and histological evidence of severe hepatitis after taking herbal remedies. One patient required urgent liver transplantation for fulminant hepatic failure after the brief use of black cohosh. Five patients took a combination of herbs and presented with jaundice, fatigue and pruritus. Healthcare providers and members of the public should be aware of the potential adverse effects of these remedies.

Edited by ajnast4r, 27 September 2011 - 04:15 PM.

[Athanasios]

I looked at a few reviews and found a lot of hits for fat burner supplements containing usnic acid, or its salt form sodium usniate, causing liver injury. The green tea problems, like we have discussed before, are caused by large doses or taking them on an empty stomach. Taking green tea supplements with vitamin C may have similar problems.

[Matt]

Wow that is bad! Hope she will be okay! A lot of people are unaware of the risks from supplements and how each interact with each other. Supplements can ohave an effect on the metabolism of certain drugs which is a big risk. Not really easy for the average person to understand. I've been a lot more cautious over the last few years with regards to what supplements I take.