LONGECITY

OK 5-HTP was used because it raises serotonin. Got that. But how do those dosages convert to humans? Just as you said low-dose Lexapro doesn't carry much of the reported side effects.. how about 100mg of 5HTP 2-3 times daily? Perhaps 5-HTP isn't as bad as we are all making it out to be.. I'm just playing devils advocate here. Let's have it Science Guy.

Hey JChief,

Please note what I posted above regarding this:

"L-5HTP increases risk of CARDIOVASCULAR DISEASE via two mechanisms; firstly, by significantly increasing PLASMA RENIN ACTIVITY; and secondly, by significantly elevating levels of SYSTEMIC SEROTONIN".

I.e. 5HTP is not just a potential health risk because it raises serotonin

I that helps clarify matters
Edited by ScienceGuy, 10 February 2012 - 05:56 PM.

OK 5-HTP was used because it raises serotonin. Got that. But how do those dosages convert to humans? Just as you said low-dose Lexapro doesn't carry much of the reported side effects.. how about 100mg of 5HTP 2-3 times daily? Perhaps 5-HTP isn't as bad as we are all making it out to be.. I'm just playing devils advocate here. Let's have it Science Guy.

Hey JChief,

Please note what I posted above regarding this:

"L-5HTP increases risk of CARDIOVASCULAR DISEASE via two mechanisms; firstly, by significantly increasing PLASMA RENIN ACTIVITY; and secondly, by significantly elevating levels of SYSTEMIC SEROTONIN".

I.e. 5HTP is not just a potential health risk because it raises serotonin

I that helps clarify matters

That's too bad since it has been proven to be clinically effective for depression:

http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/9727088
http://www.thorne.co...ext/3/4/271.pdf (contains a table summarizing 17 studies)

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The act of smiling may be more powerful then what we think . In a journal article in Pediatrics (2008 Jul;122(1):40-51), dopaminergic reward-related brain regions in mothers were activated specifically in response to happy, but not sad, facial experesions by their own infant. Dopamine centers are the part of the brain that makes us feel like we are doing something right. There have been several studies stating when you smile (and of course lauging), your brain will release both serotnin and dopamine. Seems like a great daily exercise to me.

wow you really need research to know that smiling will make you happy ...

The act of smiling may be more powerful then what we think . In a journal article in Pediatrics (2008 Jul;122(1):40-51), dopaminergic reward-related brain regions in mothers were activated specifically in response to happy, but not sad, facial experesions by their own infant. Dopamine centers are the part of the brain that makes us feel like we are doing something right. There have been several studies stating when you smile (and of course lauging), your brain will release both serotnin and dopamine. Seems like a great daily exercise to me.

wow you really need research to know that smiling will make you happy ...

I wonder if the scientists who conducted this research study were the same ones who carried out the study last year seeking to ascertain whether or not toast is more likely to land onto the floor butter-side-down after being dropped...

Hey it's good to spread some positive propaganda sometimes

scienceguy i like you information. can you give more information about SAME

scienceguy i like you information. can you give more information about SAME

Since I am pressed for time please excuse if I don't give a huge amount of detail...

In short, SAMe can be very effective for some people (but not others) in treating DEPRESSION; however, it can quite commonly induce SIDE EFFECTS, including but not limited to: NAUSEA, STOMACH UPSET, HEADACHES, ANXIETY, and INSOMNIA.

Furthermore, BIPOLAR DISORDER sufferers should avoid SAMe as it can induce MANIA

This is not to say that everyone taking SAMe will experience SIDE EFFECT; some may not experience any whatsoever, some may experience only some, wheras a few may experience them all.

I would recommend that each person will need to try SAMe to see how THEY personally respond to it
Edited by ScienceGuy, 16 February 2012 - 06:33 PM.

Hi ScienceGuy.

I´m giving meditation a try and if I continue with my issues I will complement with 5 mg. escitalopram. I´m going to follow your advices. Yesterday I read an article about a successful study with escitalopram restoring emotional memory (see: http://ki.se/ki/jsp/...=en&newsdep=130).

In this forum positive comments about people who uses escitalopram at the suggested dose of 5 mg. (see: http://www.mindandmu...talopram-dosage).

It surprises me a bit that you recommend SAMe. I avoid treating my problems with SAMe because I think that it could be harmful for someone who already suffers from anxiety and SAMe could increase it. Even though I have not try it it doesn´t give me any confidence. I don´t think that SAMe could be the solution to depression. Do you really think that it is a effective treatment?? You don´t recommend St. John´s Wort or 5-htp and you say that SAMe could help in some cases. In your personal opinion it´s SAMe a best way to treat depression and anxiety instead of escitalopram??


Thanks

I've been using turmeric (with coconut oil and little black pepper) for a month and from my experience it's a good antidepressant although sometimes too stimulating - if I take too much (1 gram or more) I feel full of energy when I would need to sleep and I have to take larger dose of melatonin to knock me out than usually. I also take it together with fish oil, so this may have to do something with absorption. For the first week I've used it I also had very good memory - I remembered things from distant past, ideas flow more easily, but I was too agitated so I had some trouble concentrating (but this may be dose dependent). And when I woke up in the middle of the night (to urinate) I felt full of energy and with absolutely no brain fog. I was also taking rhodiola rosea at the time, but I think I have build tolerance to it, so this effects are probably from turmeric mostly.
However, anybody using any MAOI or other drugs should be careful when using turmeric or curcumin since it's MAOI.

It surprises me a bit that you recommend SAMe. I avoid treating my problems with SAMe because I think that it could be harmful for someone who already suffers from anxiety and SAMe could increase it. Even though I have not try it it doesn´t give me any confidence. I don´t think that SAMe could be the solution to depression. Do you really think that it is a effective treatment?? You don´t recommend St. John´s Wort or 5-htp and you say that SAMe could help in some cases. In your personal opinion it´s SAMe a best way to treat depression and anxiety instead of escitalopram??

Thanks

You are right, SAMe is stimulating and can worsen anxiety. But good to try for depression with Bs to control homocysteine.

Hi ScienceGuy.

I´m giving meditation a try and if I continue with my issues I will complement with 5 mg. escitalopram. I´m going to follow your advices. Yesterday I read an article about a successful study with escitalopram restoring emotional memory (see: http://ki.se/ki/jsp/...=en&newsdep=130).

In this forum positive comments about people who uses escitalopram at the suggested dose of 5 mg. (see: http://www.mindandmu...talopram-dosage).

Thank you for the ESCITALOPRAM information... Very interesting!

It surprises me a bit that you recommend SAMe. I avoid treating my problems with SAMe because I think that it could be harmful for someone who already suffers from anxiety and SAMe could increase it. Even though I have not try it it doesn´t give me any confidence. I don´t think that SAMe could be the solution to depression. Do you really think that it is a effective treatment?? You don´t recommend St. John´s Wort or 5-htp and you say that SAMe could help in some cases. In your personal opinion it´s SAMe a best way to treat depression and anxiety instead of escitalopram??

You know, I really find it exasperating when people don't read posts properly

You have inexplicably INCORRECTLY inferred from what I posted that I am 'recommending SAMe' for treating ANXIETY, OCD and DEPRESSION, when in fact I have done no such thing

Please kindly note that BKMK asked me "can you give more information about SAME", to which I replied with the following post:

Since I am pressed for time please excuse if I don't give a huge amount of detail...

In short, SAMe can be very effective for some people (but not others) in treating DEPRESSION; however, it can quite commonly induce SIDE EFFECTS, including but not limited to: NAUSEA, STOMACH UPSET, HEADACHES, ANXIETY, and INSOMNIA.

This is not to say that everyone taking SAMe will experience SIDE EFFECT; some may not experience any whatsoever, some may experience only some, wheras a few may experience them all.

I would recommend that each person will need to try SAMe to see how THEY personally respond to it

Edited by ScienceGuy, 16 February 2012 - 12:26 PM.

Sorry for the inconvenience ScienceGuy. I already know and I already read in your post that one of the common side effects of SAMe could be anxiety. What I´m trying to ask (you seem to be a person with experience in this matter) is: In your personal opinion could SAMe be as effective as escitalopram in the treatment of depression for some people?

I ask this because in your previous posts you seem to say that escitalopram doesn´t have opponent in the treatment of depression (sorry if I understand wrongly your words). What´s your opinion about it??

Thanks so much.

Sorry for the inconvenience ScienceGuy. I already know and I already read in your post that one of the common side effects of SAMe could be anxiety. What I´m trying to ask (you seem to be a person with experience in this matter) is: In your personal opinion could SAMe be as effective as escitalopram in the treatment of depression for some people?

I ask this because in your previous posts you seem to say that escitalopram doesn´t have opponent in the treatment of depression (sorry if I understand wrongly your words). What´s your opinion about it??

Thanks so much.

RE: Could SAMe be as effective as escitalopram in the treatment of depression for some people?

I hesitate to answer this question, firstly because any such answer would be sheer ACADEMIC CONJECTURE, and secondly because there are simply too many influencial variables (e.g.which type of DEPRESSIVE DISORDER etc...)

I think it better to re-phrase the question as follows: Is SAMe as CONSISTENTLY EFFECTIVE and SAFE as ESCITALOPRAM in the treatment of DEPRESSIVE DISORDERS in general?

In which case the answer would be "NO".

Please kindly note that SAMe is CONTRAINDICATED regards treating BIPOLAR DISORDER type DEPRESSION due to the possibility of inducing MANIA

However, for other types of DEPRESSION, SAMe can be used in combination with ESCITALOPRAM to great effect. However, with regards to SAMe usage you should always test it to see how YOU personally respond to it, because SIDE EFFECTS are COMMON; and its effects vary significantly from person to person

Hey hipocampus. Could you tell me a little bit more about your experience with turmeric (or curcumin)?? Benefits in depression treatment with it?? Memory improvements??

It is said curcumin + bioperine it´s the best form (the bioperine increases curcumin's poor bioavailability). Did you try any of this mixed formulas??

Sorry for my ignorance but what are MAOI and what are the risks of taking them with turmeric??

Thanks

I didn't try any capsules, I've been taking ground turmeric mixed with black pepper in coconut oil (since curcumin is fat soluble). Capsules (extracts) may be good thing if you have serious disease (inflammatory disease, major depression, cancer ...) because they are more potent. Since turmeric works for me and because it's cheaper I don't have a need to try curcumin extract.

http://en.wikipedia....idase_inhibitor
I don't know if these risks apply to curcumin as well, but I'd rather stick with "better safe than sorry". Mixing different MAOIs or MAOIs and other serotonin affecting drugs (SSRI, some stimulants, MDMA ...) can cause serotonin syndrome which is potentially fatal.

My experience: I wasn't really depressed (but I've been years ago, so I know how it feels), I tried turmeric for its other health benefits and nootropic qualities (it can prevent Alzheimer and raise BDNF). After few days I realized that if I woke in the middle of the night I wasn't "groggy" or asleep at all and during the day I feel better, have more energy and so on. After a month the effect has subsided somewhat, but I simply take more because I suppose there may be some long-term effect. - If there isn't any I'll probably just cycle it.
http://scholar.googl...=sl&sa=N&tab=ws

In terms of my own experiences with trying stuff for OCD/Depression I would say escitalopram is far more effective than SAMe. I would question whether SAMe has much clout to it at all when it comes to obsessive thought patterns and rummination. SSRIs kill this in the water dead. SAMe for me just felt like a buzz but also didn't treat the rumminating aspects that I just mentioned, if anything made them worse.

SSRIs come with their own horrible drawbacks but after much trial and error I found that 1.25mg of escitalopram was the sweet spot for me. It treated my energy issues, depression, GAD and OCD. It increased libido quite considerably at this dose for the 6 months that I took it. But on the flip side it made my motivation worse and seemed to make my socal anxiety issues slightly worse.

When I gave it up I had what I believed to be SSRI discontinuation syndrome which persisted for about 3 weeks. It basically felt as if I had the worse cold ever, almost like a bronchiol infection. Accompanied with this was a crap mood and erectile dysfunction which slowly got better (thank God).

Be careful with these drugs as there are anecdotals all over the internet where people have permanent erectile function issues which haven't improved even years down the line since they gave up their SSRI.

Despite all this I have recently started taking it again purely because I have tried other shite and it just doesn't work the way escitalopram does. Until they find something better I am going to be on this for the rest of my life I think. Memantine was amazing for OCD but did nothing for the depressive side to my condition. I have tried pretty much everything apart from the MAOIs.

I haven't read anything from this thread apart from the last few posts hence my talking about escitalopram. Good luck to everyone that suffers with this.

SSRIs come with their own horrible drawbacks but after much trial and error I found that 1.25mg of escitalopram was the sweet spot for me.

Do you really mean that your ESCITALOPRAM DOSAGE was 1.25mg (i.e. one and a quarter milligrams)?

Yes.

I have a pill crusher so I can divide doses up to any strength I require. I buy cheap generic 20mg tabs and then divide them up. I roll them into cigarette papers and then put them into a baggy. One 20mg tab will produce 16 doses and because I buy it generic it's very cheap.

At 1.25mg it manages my depression very well without inducing the horrible apathy and reduced hedonic tone that comes with higher doses.

I'm not saying this would work for everyone because you get people who take up to 40mg and say they feel nothing. It's just something I tried and it worked for me. SSRIs give me immediate effects and I am not waiting around for weeks to see benefits like others might have to. I suppose that's a good thing.

Yes.

I have a pill crusher so I can divide doses up to any strength I require. I buy cheap generic 20mg tabs and then divide them up. I roll them into cigarette papers and then put them into a baggy. One 20mg tab will produce 16 doses and because I buy it generic it's very cheap.

At 1.25mg it manages my depression very well without inducing the horrible apathy and reduced hedonic tone that comes with higher doses.

I'm not saying this would work for everyone because you get people who take up to 40mg and say they feel nothing. It's just something I tried and it worked for me. SSRIs give me immediate effects and I am not waiting around for weeks to see benefits like others might have to. I suppose that's a good thing.

In which case I tip my hat to you sir in acknowledgement of your intelligence and the fact that you are one of the most sensible individuals within this forum

The greatest mistake that people make when it comes to SSRIs is taking way too high a dosage and then wondering why they suffer a whole load of SIDE EFFECTS. Taking the drug at the lowest dosage that yields the desired physiological therapeutic effects is absolutely the correct thing to do. Well done!

Thorsten2 said: "Be careful with these drugs as there are anecdotals all over the internet where people have permanent erectile function issues which haven't improved even years down the line since they gave up their SSRI"

Also: "At 1.25mg it manages my depression very well without inducing the horrible apathy and reduced hedonic tone that comes with higher doses"

These are the type of comments that make me doubt about taking SSRIs. Hearing people that suffer also side effects at a low dose of 5 mg. it does not give me any confidence.

Choqueiro - yes, it's hard to accept taking an SSRI after you hear the stories and drawbacks. I have been through a couple of them and have not had good experiences. That being said, if I felt I were out of options, I would try ESCITALOPRAM at a small 2-5mg dosage. My advice is to try the 5htp first and if that doesn't work, think about ESCITALOPRAM. I had been taking 5htp for about 15 years, and I was able to taper off in 3 days last week with no adverse side effects (I do credit the uridine for this). I went to a cardiologist today to see if I had any heart issues. He checked me out with the stethoscope and took an echocardiogram, and he said my heart appears to be in perfect health, with no obvious abnormalities. I'll know in a couple months after my blood test results (which i gave today) and stress echocardiogram results (which I take in March) come back and I meet with him again. Again, this is 15 years straight on 5htp and 600mg daily for the last 10 years.

Choqueiro - yes, it's hard to accept taking an SSRI after you hear the stories and drawbacks. I have been through a couple of them and have not had good experiences. That being said, if I felt I were out of options, I would try ESCITALOPRAM at a small 2-5mg dosage. My advice is to try the 5htp first and if that doesn't work, think about ESCITALOPRAM. I had been taking 5htp for about 15 years, and I was able to taper off in 3 days last week with no adverse side effects (I do credit the uridine for this). I went to a cardiologist today to see if I had any heart issues. He checked me out with the stethoscope and took an echocardiogram, and he said my heart appears to be in perfect health, with no obvious abnormalities. I'll know in a couple months after my blood test results (which i gave today) and stress echocardiogram results (which I take in March) come back and I meet with him again. Again, this is 15 years straight on 5htp and 600mg daily for the last 10 years.

Aren't there other problems that 5-htp can cause? It's absolutely not a good idea to be taking it.
Edited by hooter, 23 February 2012 - 08:26 AM.

Choqueiro - yes, it's hard to accept taking an SSRI after you hear the stories and drawbacks. I have been through a couple of them and have not had good experiences. That being said, if I felt I were out of options, I would try ESCITALOPRAM at a small 2-5mg dosage. My advice is to try the 5htp first and if that doesn't work, think about ESCITALOPRAM. I had been taking 5htp for about 15 years, and I was able to taper off in 3 days last week with no adverse side effects (I do credit the uridine for this). I went to a cardiologist today to see if I had any heart issues. He checked me out with the stethoscope and took an echocardiogram, and he said my heart appears to be in perfect health, with no obvious abnormalities. I'll know in a couple months after my blood test results (which i gave today) and stress echocardiogram results (which I take in March) come back and I meet with him again. Again, this is 15 years straight on 5htp and 600mg daily for the last 10 years.

Aren't there other problems that 5-htp can cause? It's absolutely not a good idea to be taking it.

The problem that we have here is that there does not exist a PERFECT solution to this particular problem, and as such it is all about weighing up RISK versus REWARD.

When one evaluates the existing evidence comparing 5-HTP versus ESCITALOPRAM, it is most certainly indicative that 5-HTP carries much greater potential health risks than ESCITALOPRAM at the 5mg DOSAGE.

Furthermore, the anecdotal report from Thorsten2 regarding experiencing SIDE EFFECTS upon cessation of a 1.25mg DOSAGE of ESCITALOPRAM is by definintion EXTRAORDINARY, in that it is the first instance that I have EVER come across or even heard of within 20 years of working within the health sector of anyone experiencing such a thing, at such a LOW DOSAGE; and with all the NEGATIVITY associated with SSRI's (which in almost all instances bar ESCITALOPRAM is in fact appropriate) we cannot as such rule out the possibility of said occurrence being due to the NOCEBO EFFECT.

Even so, it is up the the respective individual ultimately to take responsibility for their own health and weigh up the respective evidence for themselves and decide which option(s) they wish to choose.

I personally would still recommend ESCITALOPRAM at 5mg DOSAGE over 5-HTP anyday, however, I am not forcing anyone to agree with me

I should add that I am NOT recommending ESCITALOPRAM as the first choice for treating DEPRESSION; we are specifically talking about RAISING SEROTONIN LEVELS here, and comparing L-5HTP versus ESCITALOPRAM in this regard; as such with regards to specifically SAFELY and EFFECTIVELY raising serotonin levels, ESCITALOPRAM 5mg is my recommendation over L-5HTP due to it being SAFER and possibly more effective.
Edited by ScienceGuy, 17 March 2012 - 03:53 PM.

Furthermore, the anecdotal report from Thorsten2 regarding experiencing SIDE EFFECTS upon cessation of a 1.25mg DOSAGE of ESCITALOPRAM is by definintion EXTRAORDINARY, in that it is the first instance that I have EVER come across or even heard of within 20 years of working within the health sector of anyone experiencing such a thing, at such a LOW DOSAGE; and with all the NEGATIVITY associated with SSRI's (which in almost all instances bar ESCITALOPRAM is in fact appropriate) we cannot as such rule out the possibility of said occurrence being due to the NOCEBO EFFECT.

I disagree with your nocebo statement, all SSRIs have effected me in a similar manner of extreme potency. I have been only able to take 1/5th of a starting dose as a MAXIMUM and still experienced severe side effects. I was 14-16 at this time and had no clue what an SSRI was. I trusted my doctor's judgement that it would be good for me. Instead I got incredibly severe side effects. My amygdala was as if completely turned off. I didn't care whatsoever about anything and would walk out of school randomly.

I think outside of ocd, even the 5mg of escitalopram should be avoided. Considering the implications of the serotonergic system in aggression and homicidal behaviour, if this is indeed through a growth in the serotonergic system, then it's only a question of time being proportional to dosage.

Regardless, the clinical efficacy of SSRIs has only been correlated to the agonism at sigma-1 receptors and it's utterly slow neuroregenerative effects on the hippocampus. I'm pretty sure this can be handled in a more sober manner with newer and more advanced medicines.
Edited by hooter, 23 February 2012 - 01:42 PM.

Furthermore, the anecdotal report from Thorsten2 regarding experiencing SIDE EFFECTS upon cessation of a 1.25mg DOSAGE of ESCITALOPRAM is by definintion EXTRAORDINARY, in that it is the first instance that I have EVER come across or even heard of within 20 years of working within the health sector of anyone experiencing such a thing, at such a LOW DOSAGE; and with all the NEGATIVITY associated with SSRI's (which in almost all instances bar ESCITALOPRAM is in fact appropriate) we cannot as such rule out the possibility of said occurrence being due to the NOCEBO EFFECT.

I disagree with your nocebo statement, all SSRIs have effected me in a similar manner of extreme potency. I have been only able to take 1/5th of a starting dose as a MAXIMUM and still experienced severe side effects. I was 14-16 at this time and had no clue what an SSRI was. I trusted my doctor's judgement that it would be good for me. Instead I got incredibly severe side effects. My amygdala was as if completely turned off. I didn't care whatsoever about anything and would walk out of school randomly.

I think outside of ocd, even the 5mg of escitalopram should be avoided. Considering the implications of the serotonergic system in aggression and homicidal behaviour, if this is indeed through a growth in the serotonergic system, then it's only a question of time being proportional to dosage.

Regardless, the clinical efficacy of SSRIs has only been correlated to the agonism at sigma-1 receptors and it's utterly slow neuroregenerative effects on the hippocampus. I'm pretty sure this can be handled in a more sober manner with newer and more advanced medicines.

Hey Hooter,

I am not saying that it definitely is the NOCEBO EFFECT; that is simply one possibility that I have come up with with regards to an explanation to what in my experience to date with ESCITALOPRAM is an ABNORMAL and EXTRAORDINARY reaction by definition. I meant what I said about never having ever come across anyone experiencing such a reaction at the very low dosage. Please do not misinterpret this as me in any way being dismissive. I am simply trying to come up with possible explanations as to how this highly unusual instance has occurred; and as such, I do not think we can completely rule out the possibility of the NOCEBO EFFECT.

The 5mg dosage of ESCITALOPRAM really has substantiated evidence that it has minimal possibility for SIDE EFFECTS, and this is further supported by clinical practice; and as such its RISK versus REWARD ratio is very good indeed.

Here we have the first and singular instance that I have every come across of reported SIDE EFFECTS upon cessation of a very low dose; whilst important to note, I think we need to be careful about throwing 'the baby out with the bathwater' so to speak.

Even so, I DO fully appreciate and empathize with your perspective on SSRI's, and agree with you in respect to all SSRI's, bar ESCITALOPRAM at the 5mg dosage.

The problem that we have is that in the absence of A PERFECT solution the question at hand, namely RAISING SEROTONIN LEVELS effectively and safely, we have to consider the various options that are available; and as such I still stand by the fact that when all the options are considered ESCITALOPRAM at the 5mg dosage is still the best choice, and most certainly not L-5HTP

Please note that I am specifically referring to RAISING SEROTONIN LEVELS and I am NOT recommending ESCITALOPRAM as the first choice in all cases for treating DEPRESSION
Edited by ScienceGuy, 17 March 2012 - 03:57 PM.

Personally I enjoy sex too much to take even that risk.

Personally I enjoy sex too much to take even that risk.

Hahaha, OK... I see I am not going to win this debate am I?

The only thing that abolishes my OCD is amphetamine.

Hahaha, OK... I see I am not going to win this debate am I?

Please rest assured that I do not deny that you have an absolutely valid point, and that many who are not as concerned by this may find help and relief in 5mg ESCITALOPRAM.

The only thing that abolishes my OCD is amphetamine.

Piracetam has personally helped me with OCD, but only at higher doses.

Psilocybin is far more effective for this than amphetamine. In fact, psilocybin is one of the most longest lasting and effective OCD treatments available. Sadly illegal in most countries... But I find this to be a violation of the Geneva Convention on torture. Because these people are in completely preventable torment caused by the banning of something that should only be a concern between them and their own body. People are not property of the government, and they absolutely do not have the right to control what citizens do within the privacy of their own brains.

I find that one dose of psilocybin can reduce OCD severity for up to a few months.

Here's one study:
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/17196053

I can also confirm this with anecdotal reports from myself, and three other OCD sufferers. I actually found a personal account of OCD being completely abolished by a psilocybin experience (http://www.maps.org/...n2/12217rs.html). The pharmacology behind this is completely sound, and a drug with a 100,000 year history of established shamanic use and incredibly low toxicity is unlikely to cause problems. In fact the studies that have been done, showed that this was a safe treatment. For your safety I recommend that you avoid it if you have auto-immune disorders or a heart condition.

This might not be useful to most, but to many the prison of the mind is inconceivably worse than the mild threat of a physical one.
Edited by hooter, 23 February 2012 - 09:58 PM.

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"Its individual; da release abolishes my ocd; psychedelics dont also not in treshold doses; amt in daily low doses does tough; im a big fan of this old sovjet antidepressant.