29 replies to this topic

[Lufega]

This study found that patients who lose weight rapidly after gastric bypass and develop massive skin laxity have a shortage of heparan sulfate. The other components in skin such as collagen, elastin and GAG were either normal or increased.

Glycosaminoglycans of abdominal skin after massive weight loss in post-bariatric female patients.

BACKGROUND:

The number of post-bariatric patients had a significant increase over the last years, and a better understanding of the consequences of massive weight loss on skin is imperative. Despite weight-loss-related changes in collagen and elastin have been reported, less is known about changes in another of the matrix components of the skin, the glycosaminoglycans. The objective of this study is to evaluate abdominal skin glycosaminoglycans concentrations and perlecan and collagen III expression in post-bariatric female patients.
RESULTS:

The major glycosaminoglycans found were dermatan sultafe and hyaluronic acid; the others were found in smaller amounts. The skin of the post-bariatric patients had lower concentrations of heparan sulfate (p = 0.002) while hyaluronic acid, dermatan sulfate, and chondroitin sulfate concentrations were similar to the lean women's skin. Post-bariatric skin showed decreased expression of perlecan and increased expression of collagen III. No correlation was found among glycosaminoglycans concentrations and age, body mass index, frequency of pregnancies, or skin types, but it was observed in higher skin heparan sulfate concentrations in post-bariatric patients who had their weights stabilized for over than 24 months (p = 0.000).
CONCLUSION:

Abdominal skin of post-bariatric women presented decreased heparan sulfate concentrations and perlecan expression and increased expression of collagen III.

This makes sense as the skin needs more tensile strength when stretched. HS is also decreased in aged human skin. PMID:21426414. I was searching for ways to increase HS short of supplementing with GAG supplements and found this study on the effects of manganese. I wrote an earlier post on the effect of vitamin K on GAG production. In fact, induced manganese deficiency was shown to decrease levels of HS. PMID:9845481

Can this possibly prevent saggy skin formation during controlled fat loss or possibly reverse it after it has set in? Some forums suggest that saggy skin post weight loss will normally take care of itself after many years. Can manganese and HS levels be a determining factor in the rate of regression ?

Edited by Lufega, 11 October 2011 - 09:41 PM.

[Logan]

Lufega, I'm interested in this as a freind of mine has more laxity in her skin than usual. She has always been lean, and fairly athletic, but has this wierd skin thing going on where it's even loose around parts of her legs where most people's skin if very tight.

Have you tried anything that you think helped make skin tighter and less lax? I know you are interested in doing this for yourslef.

[Lufega]

Unless your friend lost a great amount of weight recently but you say she's always been lean. Has that been check out by a Doctor? There are some conditions that can cause skin laxity like ehler-danlos and cutis laxa. Might be worth a look. In these cases, copper supplementation can help. Other than that, manganese and menatetrenone seem promising. I've always had very saggy skin. I thought it was due to low collagen elastin levels and I tried many things in the past to correct this: gotu kola, biotin, silica, ellagic acid, isoflavones, etc. all with no noticeable difference. I've been using vitamin K for a while now and I do notice my skin looks nicer. I also used manganese extensively a while back and again noticed positive changes. I gained a lot of weight since then, more than I ever have (was on propranolol for a year) so this should prove to be the ultimate test, I guess.

[Lufega]

Another way is by using SOD. SOD has a high affinity for heparan sulfate and it protects it from destruction by free radicals.

Extracellular superoxide dismutase protects against matrix degradation of heparan sulfate in the lung.

[TheFountain]

Another way is by using SOD. SOD has a high affinity for heparan sulfate and it protects it from destruction by free radicals.

Extracellular superoxide dismutase protects against matrix degradation of heparan sulfate in the lung.

So someone with skin laxity from weight loss might want to take the following supplement twice daily?

http://www.swansonvi...F608/ItemDetail

[Logan]

Thanks Lufega

[Lufega]

Another way is by using SOD. SOD has a high affinity for heparan sulfate and it protects it from destruction by free radicals.

Extracellular superoxide dismutase protects against matrix degradation of heparan sulfate in the lung.

So someone with skin laxity from weight loss might want to take the following supplement twice daily?

http://www.swansonvi...F608/ItemDetail

If the theory is correct. SOD will permit the accumulation of HS and other ECM components like GAG and collagen. Supplemental SOD is strong enough to protect the lungs connective tissue components. I assume it can do the same for the skin. But I would do that in addition to something that stimulates collagen. For example, topical vitamin C (stimulates collagen I and III) and vitamin a (stimulates elastin), manganese and vitamin K (for GAG and hyaluronan).

Then there's the effect of Coffea arabica L. seed oil on skin. It stimulates collagen, elastin, GAG, pretty much everything. It's pretty interesting. You can buy this from amazon. Pricy though.

Edited by Lufega, 16 October 2011 - 03:41 AM.

[TheFountain]

I don't see Green Coffea arabica L. seed oil on amazon.

[TheFountain]

Another way is by using SOD. SOD has a high affinity for heparan sulfate and it protects it from destruction by free radicals.

Extracellular superoxide dismutase protects against matrix degradation of heparan sulfate in the lung.

So someone with skin laxity from weight loss might want to take the following supplement twice daily?

http://www.swansonvi...F608/ItemDetail

If the theory is correct. SOD will permit the accumulation of HS and other ECM components like GAG and collagen. Supplemental SOD is strong enough to protect the lungs connective tissue components. I assume it can do the same for the skin. But I would do that in addition to something that stimulates collagen. For example, topical vitamin C (stimulates collagen I and III) and vitamin a (stimulates elastin), manganese and vitamin K (for GAG and hyaluronan).

Then there's the effect of Coffea arabica L. seed oil on skin. It stimulates collagen, elastin, GAG, pretty much everything. It's pretty interesting. You can buy this from amazon. Pricy though.

What dose of vitamin k were you taking?

[TheFountain]

By the way, speaking of HA have you ever tried skin eternals hyaluranic acid? I have found this supplement to be firming to my skin, no studies to cite, but it does seem to work for me.

[Lufega]

I'm using 5 mg daily. Sometimes I take 10 mg but not always. I hear that the effect of topical HA are purely cosmetic and short-lived. Any thoughts on that ?

[Luminosity]

Lufega,

This is a topic that a lot of people want to know about and it seems like you know more about it than most. What is GAG and where would you get it to try anyway? What are the supplements, brands, dosages, etc that people can even try for this?

If you can find it, BioTech enzymes are a good source of superoxide dismutase. I think you would want to try their product called something like Cell Guard. I took a high quality brand name supplement of SOD but it wasn't as effective as the BioTech product.

After I started taking Camu Camu as a source of vitamin C I thought my skin got firmer and smoother. I think the source is Amazon Laboratories. The capsules would be better because the excess acidity isn't good for your teeth. If the powder in the capsules is not pink, like a pencil eraser, but is tan instead, it is no good, probably due to heat exposure. Watch out. Some guesses, I'd try collagen, if you haven't already. Yoga? Swimming? The resistance from the water might help, as well as the exercise. Thanks for researching this. You could do something with this professionally, if you wanted to because I don't think anyone is getting a handle in a way that people understand the options.

[TheFountain]

I'm using 5 mg daily. Sometimes I take 10 mg but not always. I hear that the effect of topical HA are purely cosmetic and short-lived. Any thoughts on that ?

Yes I know this is true of injectable HA but no long term studies on supplemental HA have been performed to my knowledge. So there is no saying really. I know that I have tried other brands of HA but they didn't seem to work as well as this one. What brand of vitamin K are you using?

Edited by TheFountain, 17 October 2011 - 07:52 AM.

[jmal2000]

I'm very interested in this object if anyone has updates

[TheKidInside]

from my understanding and I've been reading into this for about 3 years, there's really nothing you can do except wait for your skin to adjust...I went from 230 to 160 and I still have a tiny bit of "loose skin" around my abs (I pretty much have an 8 pack at this point with 5.6% body fat) but it's not awful and pretty much unnoticable unless I tell you about it...

Most things like lotions and creams won't work apparently. but I have no experience with supplements....so we'll see from some anecdotal evidence if it arises

[Lufega]

I'm very interested in this object if anyone has updates

Aside from the studies and supplements I mentioned above you could opt for some topicals. For example, topical gotu kola can increase TGF-beta1 and promote collagen and elastogenesis. I found on cream that contains said kola plus caffeine (or was it aminophylline?) and a few other things that look promising. PM me if you want more info.

Aside from that, keeping your protein intake is probably best. This guy is coming down from 500 lbs and has kept his sagginess to a minimum by doing that. Just remember that losing weight is very taxing on the heart and body. Make sure to consume enough magnesium (which is found abundantly in elastin) and potassium as well as other nutrients. The body can go through a lot of vitamins and minerals trying to burn all the excess fat. Vitamin K seems like a nutrient that most people don't get enough of. Seeing the effect it was on GAG production, I think supplementation is warranted.

[Lufega]

from my understanding and I've been reading into this for about 3 years, there's really nothing you can do except wait for your skin to adjust...I went from 230 to 160 and I still have a tiny bit of "loose skin" around my abs (I pretty much have an 8 pack at this point with 5.6% body fat) but it's not awful and pretty much unnoticable unless I tell you about it...

Most things like lotions and creams won't work apparently. but I have no experience with supplements....so we'll see from some anecdotal evidence if it arises

That a pretty impressive weight reduction. Care to elaborate on your method ? I've been following a leangains/primal type diet for a year now. Came down from 250 to about 208 and I've plateaued. I've gained a lot of strength and muscle but I would like to get down to 10%. I added the ECA stack last month and that helped some but it wasn't as dramatic as I was expecting. I can't seem to get rid of the fat around my face, stomach and chest. Might start alternating ECA with yohimbe, perhaps.

[cherrysilver]

I'm using 5 mg daily. Sometimes I take 10 mg but not always. I hear that the effect of topical HA are purely cosmetic and short-lived. Any thoughts on that ?

Yes I know this is true of injectable HA but no long term studies on supplemental HA have been performed to my knowledge. So there is no saying really. I know that I have tried other brands of HA but they didn't seem to work as well as this one. What brand of vitamin K are you using?

For whatever it's worth, in my search for boost HA production, I came across the following study on the effects of fermented soy milk extract on HA. Looks like I'll be switching from my regular soy milk brand to a fermented one (NOW or Jarrow).

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/12637786

FWIW, I'm taking K2-MK4 drops by Thorne. I've noticed skin softening effects within a few days of taking it.

[TheKidInside]

from my understanding and I've been reading into this for about 3 years, there's really nothing you can do except wait for your skin to adjust...I went from 230 to 160 and I still have a tiny bit of "loose skin" around my abs (I pretty much have an 8 pack at this point with 5.6% body fat) but it's not awful and pretty much unnoticable unless I tell you about it...

Most things like lotions and creams won't work apparently. but I have no experience with supplements....so we'll see from some anecdotal evidence if it arises

That a pretty impressive weight reduction. Care to elaborate on your method ? I've been following a leangains/primal type diet for a year now. Came down from 250 to about 208 and I've plateaued. I've gained a lot of strength and muscle but I would like to get down to 10%. I added the ECA stack last month and that helped some but it wasn't as dramatic as I was expecting. I can't seem to get rid of the fat around my face, stomach and chest. Might start alternating ECA with yohimbe, perhaps.

of course! just started to eat clean. what's crazy is that at the time I had no blogs or forums that I was reading or anything. I sorta took the "obvious" things I was hearing...eat clean, cut out dairy, cut out processed foods and simple sugar, cut out bread (and now we come to learn that wheat is terrible along with most grains, etc) so it wasn't anything insane just started eating more raw natural foods, organic food, and one thing I learned how to do was listen to my body. not eat cookies or tea with biscuits because that's like a "tradition" etc

keep it up sounds like you're doing great! plateaus will happen that's part of the problem but in a month you'll lose another 5-10 pounds so no sweat :D

[Lufega]

There are some interesting properties associated with vitamin B5 or Pantothenic acid. It allows you to fast for longer hours without feeling hungry and it can aid weight loss by preferentially burning fat for fuel, while delaying ketosis. It can also help keep the skin tight and collagen production up. The following article is very interesting and it follows from this original study. I've been using 500 mg and the effect is very strong, at least for me. Can't imagine getting up to 10 grams!

Pantothenic acid as a weight-reducing agent: fasting without hunger, weakness and ketosis.


http://www.coenzyme-a.com/obesity.html <--Long but very good read.

[Lufega]

Fucoidin looks really, really promising. It has heparan sulfate like activity, inhibits elastase, stimulates fibroblast proliferation and EM deposition and protects structural components from degradation among other things. Read the whole abstract. While this study is in vitro, I saw other confirming some of these activities in vivo.

Fucoidan a sulfated polysaccharide from brown algae is a potent modulator of connective tissue proteolysis.

Abstract

Fucoidans are sulfated fucosylated polymers from brown algae cell wall that exhibit some heparin/heparan sulfate

properties. We previously demonstrated that these polysaccharides were able in vitro to stimulate dermal fibroblast proliferation and extracellular matrix deposition. Here, we investigated the action of a 16kDa fucoidan fraction on parameters involved in connective tissue breakdown. This fucoidan is able to inhibit gelatinase A secretion and stromelysin 1 induction by interleukin-1beta on dermal fibroblasts in culture. Furthermore, we observed that fucoidan increases the rate of association of MMPs with their specific inhibitors namely TIMPs. Using tissue sections of human skin in ex vivo experiments, we evidenced that this polysaccharide was able to minimize human leukocyte elastase activity resulting in the protection of human skin elastic fiber network against the enzymatic proteolysis due to this serine proteinase. These results suggested that fucoidan could be used for treating some inflammatory pathologies in which uncontrolled extracellular matrix degradation takes place.

Edited by Lufega, 12 February 2012 - 09:57 PM.

[TheKidInside]

i would never condone the use of anything that essentially supressed appetite. unless you're a compulsive eater, which should be addressed with a good psychiatrist or hypnotherapist or a mindset coach, it is your body telling you that you need nourishment.

[niner]

i would never condone the use of anything that essentially supressed appetite. unless you're a compulsive eater, which should be addressed with a good psychiatrist or hypnotherapist or a mindset coach, it is your body telling you that you need nourishment.

Humans are evolutionarily selected to eat when we get the chance, particularly things that taste good. It is now our unfortunate nature to be our own worst enemies, health-wise. I don't think people who eat too much necessarily have a mental disorder, they're just being human. Most people need to learn how to eat better. Providing people get adequate nutrition, I think an appetite suppressant could have value.

[mpe]

My wife and I have recently (last 2 weeks) started supplementing with coconut oil. I was skeptical as to wether or not it would work as claimed, but at $20 for a liter jar we thought it worth a try. We both only take a tablespoon twice a day and the fat loss which had stalled restarted immediately.
We are both on a Paleo style diet but the fat loss had stalled about a month before. We have made no other changes to our diet exercise or supplements.
In the last 2 weeks I have lost 5 kilos, my wife 3 kilos.
My wife's skin which had sagged with the weight loss is now noticeably firmer as well

Edited by mpe, 14 February 2012 - 01:49 AM.

[xEva]

There are some interesting properties associated with vitamin B5 or Pantothenic acid. It allows you to fast for longer hours without feeling hungry and it can aid weight loss by preferentially burning fat for fuel, while delaying ketosis. It can also help keep the skin tight and collagen production up. The following article is very interesting and it follows from this original study. I've been using 500 mg and the effect is very strong, at least for me. Can't imagine getting up to 10 grams!

Pantothenic acid as a weight-reducing agent: fasting without hunger, weakness and ketosis.


http://www.coenzyme-a.com/obesity.html <--Long but very good read.

This article is... I'm looking for a polite word... can't find it... The author sounds perplexed as to why ketones appear and considers them a sign of pathology. It appears that neither he nor the reviewers who published it are aware of the groundbreaking research into fasting / starvation by George Cahill and Oliver Owen back in the1960s-1970s. Namely, ketones feed the brain when glucose is in low supply (free fatty acids have no access to the brain).

Also, he writes, "individual begins to feel hungry, with the concomitant symptoms of weakness, dizziness and sweating emerging."
These are typical symptoms of falling blood glucose levels.

"In laboratory animals, it is not uncommon for some to stay active and yet free of ketosis for two to five days after the onset of fasting."
Animals do not develop the level of ketosis seen in humans. Humans are the most ketotic prone animal. The degree and the speed of ketosis depends directly on the size of the brain relative to the body mass. Human babies, especially newborns, are the quickest to enter ketosis. Also, the author seems to judge ketosis by ketonuria, which is not a reliable indicator of the level of ketones in the blood.

"Why is it that some people can tolerate fasting better than the others in the sense that they can go on with their activity without ketosis for a much longer period of time? And, more important, why is the body, with the development of ketosis, losing precious stored energy at a time when the body needs it most?"
That depends on the level of metabolic fitness, which can be trained. As for "losing precious energy", by which the author of course means ketonuria, there are a few reasons for it. According the Cahill, the main reason for 3% of ketones being lost in urine is to neutralize ammonium, which is formed in the kidneys when glucose is made from glutamine. He says that positively charged ammonium must be balanced with negatively charged ketone to maintain electroneutrality.

And then the author needs to make up his mind: he wants to loose weight yet he is upset about wasting energy -?


"The New Hypothesis of Ketone Body Formation
It seems that the crux of the matter rests on the formation of ketone bodies. So long as the mechanism is working efficiently, no ketone bodies will emerge."
-?! his ignorance of the subject he is discussing is beyond a polite comment. Again, the main reason for ketones is to feed the brain when glucose levels are low. This fact has been known for close to 50 years and available to anyone who cares to google.

It appears author simply wants to avoid ketosis during what's called a semi-starvation. Well then, all he has to do is to increase the ratio of carbs to fats. If vit B5 helps -- and it does help with carb utilization -- so much better. Except that 10g sound excessive. Again, Cahill and Owen showed way back when that the level of ketosis is inversely proportional to the level of glucose and that the way to stop it is to administer adequate quantity of glucose.

This article aint good

Edited by xEva, 14 February 2012 - 09:38 AM.

[Raptor87]

Ivé heard anecdotes that people get better skin quality when on LCHF diet. Is it true?

Also, worth to point out is that high B5 supplementation can get rid of clogged pores! I am thinking of trying it, but Im low on dough so it will have to wait.

Furthermore, check out the threads on joint tendon repair, collagen repair and so on. There´s a lot of great info there that might help.

And for the girls who has wrinkles on her thighs, Ive seen it happen on many occasions, I think it´s genetic but the main cause is muscle atrophy often due to condition training or just not getting the amounts of daily calories that one would need. She needs to start eating more calories, protein and doing some squats.

[Logan]

i would never condone the use of anything that essentially supressed appetite. unless you're a compulsive eater, which should be addressed with a good psychiatrist or hypnotherapist or a mindset coach, it is your body telling you that you need nourishment.

Humans are evolutionarily selected to eat when we get the chance, particularly things that taste good. It is now our unfortunate nature to be our own worst enemies, health-wise. I don't think people who eat too much necessarily have a mental disorder, they're just being human. Most people need to learn how to eat better. Providing people get adequate nutrition, I think an appetite suppressant could have value.

Eating too much often is a sign of something going on emotionally. We cannot deny that when people are stressed or have low self esteem, they are more likely to over eat and treat their bodies badly in many ways. When you feel bad, you seek out reward more, it's that simple.

I think most people need to learn how to eat better simply because they are not fed the way they should have been all along. Also, people eat bad because they were not loved the way they should have been. I'm not talking about eating a near perfect diet. I'm simply speaking of eating when hungry, when necessary, and in a reasonable amount.

Also, exercise acts as quite a powerful appetite suppressant and appetite modifier. If you are getting a decent amount of proper exercise regularly, you will likely naturally eat healthier and in more reasonable amounts. Your reward system is charged by exercise, leaving you feeling fairly satisfied, not needing to satisfy too much through eating food.

[Lufega]

There's also a lot of evidence showing that wheat consumption stimulates hunger. Personally, I've noticed that I'm not as hungry and can fill up with less food since giving up wheat. I can also fast most of the day, sometimes until 8 pm, with only a faint sensation of hunger. This is exactly what people say will happen when you give up wheat. My previous attempts at fasting where a disaster. I couldn't even make it to 10 am without eating something. I was also eating wheat then.

I ordered some Fucoidan, should arrive today. Will report any findings after a week or so.

Edited by Lufega, 23 February 2012 - 07:11 PM.

[TheKidInside]

i would never condone the use of anything that essentially supressed appetite. unless you're a compulsive eater, which should be addressed with a good psychiatrist or hypnotherapist or a mindset coach, it is your body telling you that you need nourishment.

Humans are evolutionarily selected to eat when we get the chance, particularly things that taste good. It is now our unfortunate nature to be our own worst enemies, health-wise. I don't think people who eat too much necessarily have a mental disorder, they're just being human. Most people need to learn how to eat better. Providing people get adequate nutrition, I think an appetite suppressant could have value.

OK you have to clarify when you say that, however. Is it a good SUPPLEMENTAL tool? Certainly. But, if you're using it long term without understand proper diet/nutrition you will fail

as they say "Give a man a fish and feed him for a day. Teach a man how to fish and feed him for a life time" It is this philosophy I employ in my practice even though I'm sure some money-hungry "unethical" health care worker would say that it's silly and naive to do so

[Logic]

Butcher's Broom is an elastase inhibitor. I add it to my skin cream as well as take the pills. (with breaks)
http://www.longecity...-looking-young/

Pycnogenol reduces collagen cross-linking. ie: rejuvenation!?
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/17646678

Importance of amino acid composition to improve skin collagen protein synthesis rates in UV-irradiated mice:
http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC3351609/

Edited by Logic, 06 December 2012 - 01:08 PM.