41 replies to this topic

[susmariosep]

This section is all about what I know from stock knowledge to be into smart drugs, drugs that can make people remember things better and know things better and see things in their minds better or deeper or more broad or more subtly.

I am a person who is obsessed with quick, easy, and sure ways to getting to places or skills or things or mental states -- quick, easy, and sure.

So, people here who are knowledgeable, do we have any over the counter drugs for arriving at effects aspired after by Buddhists in their meditation?

Maybe not drugs specifically designed for such a purpose, but designed for other purposes with a side effect for bringing about some kind of Nirvana or enlightenment of the Buddhists; so that I won't have to be actually sitting on one's haunches trying to in effect deaden one's mind and consciousness in at least eight hours of so-called meditation everyday.

Another thing, what about some dream drugs, also over the counter please.

Susma

[free]

There are no shortcuts....you are only fooling yourself if you think you can cross spiritual bridges without paying the dues...

However, if you are still curious and have a lot of reading time on your hands, check out the Erowid Psychoactive Vaults , in particular, the experience, spiritual and mind & spirit sections.... [glasses]

Edited by free, 30 January 2005 - 03:45 AM.

[nootropi]

1. L-theanine (Suntheanine is the best!)
2. Gotu Kola extract is also a great mediation tool.
3. Phenibut (in smaller doses ~250mg)

[lynx]

Mitragynine baby, mitragynine

and don't forget poppy pod tea, available as pods on E-bay

[scottl]

There are no shortcuts....you are only fooling yourself if you think you can cross spiritual bridges without paying the dues...

Very well said. Although in his case I do not think he actually believe in....what he is asking for, and is just using the words as a metaphor for something.

[susmariosep]

Dear Scottl:

Actually I am very serious about my inquiry.

Over the counter drugs, for being over the counter, are safe in dosages not excessive.

I don't take alcoholic drinks but I lived several months in southern Europe where people take a lot of wine with food, and even snacks of bread, cheese, and wine, and they don't have as bad a problem with alcholism as in the US and in northern European societies. What I mean is that like alcohol in moderate amounts, over the counter drugs are safe and beneficial, at least the government sees to that.

Same also with coffee, I enjoy good coffee. That is also in a sense an over the counter drug. In my modest pharmaceutical manual, there is the mention of caffein tablets available in drugstore, which are supposed to be good for keeping awake like taking a cup of good coffee.

Where am I heading for? Namely, that if the brain can get to the effects of Buddhist meditation without drugs, then it can get there also faster, easier, and surer with if available some over the counter drugs, and safer also, very important in my concern.

From my stock reading I learned that a lot of Western Buddhists or American Buddhists got interested in Buddhism from their experience with drugs, which kind of introduce them to shall we use the words, mystic encounters. But once they become Buddhists, they disown drug in aid of mysticism. Why? Perhaps they realize that the raison d'etre of Buddhism would be lost if we can arrive at Buddhist mysticism with good but harmless drugs.

Okay, here is what I think would be the bonanza of meditation drugs, then meditation would be recreational and of course educational in regard to mystical orientation of human existence.

At present the way I see it, meditation is not recreational: for its physical discomfort and long hours discipline of inactivity or boring efforts to arrive at calming and quieting the mind, it certainly is not recreational.

No, I am not into recreational drugs, but I don't mind recreational meditation from drugs which are over the counter -- therefore legal and safe, of course as usual in moderated amounts. And recreation is enjoyable, so let's have it even with meditation by over the counter drugs.


Susma

[nootropi]

Susma:

Try taking 300-400 mg suntheanine.

[free]

If I understand correctly, however, doesn't Buddhism discourage/prohibit the consumption of anything that would distort consciousness and alter self-awareness? Justifying the use of a drug (even over the counter) for meditation purposes is still unacceptable, I think....in addition, I found this:

When asked "What have you gained from meditation?" the correct answer should be "nothing." For meditation is not for acquiring but for giving up -- a full and complete giving up of the self. Too often people put in a half-hour each day at meditation in the same way that they put in a half-hour studying French. After so many months or years one has a new attribute, a new skill to add to one's already impressive repertoire of virtues, achievements, talents, and abilities. "I can speak French, play the piano, ski, type sixty words a minute, and meditate as well." Such a person is either compensating for strong feelings of inadequacy or else is badly afflicted with narcissism. Another way in which meditation becomes misdirected, as a result of the very motives which determined it, is the quest for new sensations or experiences, i.e. lobha. Many seek from meditation the very same thing they seek from drugs -- i.e. an overwhelming ego-immersing experience of sensations, perceptions, colours, emotions, and "transcendental states beyond words."

It is not meant to belittle such experiences and say that they have no significance or no value. But as with taking LSD or seeing a good motion picture, they quickly pass into memories. And once past, in a very short time one's old mood changes, petty jealousies, conceits, and irritations are back just as strong and as frequent as ever. If there has been no true and lasting personality change, then Buddhist meditation has fallen short of its intended goal.

Edited by free, 30 January 2005 - 04:31 AM.

[scottl]

Susma,

"Actually I am very serious about my inquiry."

Yes I believe you are. But since I doubt you have the experience of the meditation you mention you are asking for supplements to duplicate WHAT YOU IMAGINE the experience of meditation to be.

Free is correct. And many people on this forum would benefit by at least exploring the benefits of....meditation before taking phenibut, theanine etc. etc.

I suggest you try out this exercise. It can be done as is for only a few seconds here and there. Or I suggest you try doing it for a good 5 minutes twice a day (not exactly your long hours, but effective)

http://www.thewayofs...meditation.html

BTW:

"Perhaps they realize that the raison d'etre of Buddhism would be lost if we can arrive at Buddhist mysticism with good but harmless drugs."

"At present the way I see it, meditation is not recreational: for its physical discomfort and long hours discipline of inactivity or boring efforts to arrive at calming and quieting the mind, it certainly is not recreational."

You are certain of things that you are so far off on as to be beyond belief.....

If you want real information on practical mysticism explore the site that I linked to (it is zen bhuddist influenced).

[scottl]

Cosmos,

1. He is apparently seeking a...certain mental state. I suggested a non-supplement way that might provide what he wants.

2. He states with certainty some things relating to spirituality that are grossly false. I am not selling anything and do not care what you or he believes. The exercises work no matter what you believe. If he wants more info he can read there. If not, he can ignore it.

[susmariosep]

Quick, easy, sure, and safe, those are the key words I want to read in or about drug assisted meditation and the boons ensuing therefrom.

No, I am not into meditation, not the religious kind and not certainly the Buddhist or Yoga or Transcendental or the Christian, whatever religious kind.

But if keeping quiet and still in one's body and in one's brain-mind is the physical environment of meditation to get to the boons of meditation, then I am sure I know what meditation is all about. And I do have such boons without meditation but cultivating plain common-sense relaxation and reflective self-mooding.

And I suspect the boons from my own self-mooding quiet relaxed reflection are also sought after in religious meditation like that pursued by Buddhists.


So far we have in the answers to my question here, people who at least implicitly or presumably maintain that drugs can bring about the boons of Buddhist meditation, and they suggest some specific drugs; and people who don't.

One or two posters bring up the question of how I can ask about the boons of Buddhist meditation (I guess that's a good word to use in this matter of meditation goals), when I have never experienced Buddhist meditation and much less its boons. As a matter of record, in that thread of mine on Buddha and divine revelation and what's original with him, I show myself to be negatively critical of Buddhism and eminent Buddhist doctrines and practices.


Can one talk about something one has no experience of? Yes, if he hears and reads others talking about it with enthusiasm -- seemingly that they have the experience of that something or know what the experience is all about.

Chip is one poster here who regularly denies that death exists -- that is for him; because he has never experienced death. Yet he can talk with people like me who claims to know what is death from an almost near experience of death or from self acquaintance with the fact of death in plants, animals, and humans also.

So, no I have no experience of Buddhist meditation and much less of its boons. But yes, I can know in a way what people are talking about in exchanging ideas about Buddhist meditation.

Maybe a very good example of knowing something even not experiencing something is sex: even when I was a very 'innocent' child, and also every other mentally functional child, I knew already what sex is, even though I had not then done any sex activity that I knew of to be sex, and had not seen any people engaged in overt sex.

No, I don't think the comment is acceptable that since I have no experience of Buddhist meditation and much less of its boons, I have no justification to bring up the suggestion of using drugs to achieve a quick, easy, sure, and safe process of Buddhist meditation and arrive at its boons.

Susma

[susmariosep]

The title of the thread is Meditation drugs (and dream drugs), quick, easy, and sure way to meditation.

To be honest, the topic seems quite broad, and my idea is a bit undefined but in a general direction. First to know whether there are such drugs, which I have also narrowed down as being quick, easy, sure, and safe means to do Buddhist meditation or simulate such a procedure and arrive at its boon, but quick, easy, sure, and safe.

Am I really going to experiment with those drugs on myself, suggested by knowledgeable posters here?


Although in the preceding post I claim to know in a way Buddhist meditation and its boons, yet my knowledge here -- and even Buddhist masters will admit this, is better described as fuzzy.


Conditions of the mind or brain arrived at by plain meditation and by drug or drug assisted meditation, namely, feelings, can they be more concretely described in terms of the drab routines of daily existence?


There is mention of relief from physical discomforts, aches, and pains, with meditation and even done through drugs, the meditation that is. In which case the meditation, without or with drug is productive of an analgesic effect, like taking an aspirin?

That is one example of a mundane or drab life condition, bodily discomforts, aches, pains. Another drab life condition is when one is looking for a small screw that one has dropped on the floor, and having a hard time looking for -- and not finding it.

Getting the routines of drab life done, is what I mean by the drab life experiences as opposed to the ideal life experiences, like what people engaged in religious meditation whether without or with drugs talk about, for example, feeling of oneness with the universe or union with God.


Can we channel the efficacy of meditation and in particular drug assisted meditation, since we are on this topic, into drab life routines; so that we get mundane chores done faster, easier, and at less cost -- but for the drugs (which production cost in itself is very little, just like raising vegetables or manufacturing aspirins (am I right?).

Drab life routines also include what the US euphemistically is trying to do in Iraq, bring liberty and democracy to the Iraqis, and in a larger perspective fight terrorism from fanatical Muslims.


My thread is now that I have seen it better into what I am always obsessed about, the mundane routines of life, how to perform them faster, easier, surer, and very important safer.

Otherwise the boons of meditation are just the luxury of people who don't have to be occupied with the drab conditions of life.

And is that why Buddhist monks as with Catholic monks don't go into having a family, making a living, and contributing to making the world a materially better place to live in; but they give themselves up to an ideal life of what, feeling one with the universe or being united with God, or knowing what life is all about, whatever that be.

Susma

[free]

??????
right.... whatever.... [wis]

[stellar]

Hi susma, hopefully we can put our past disagreements behind us. My recommendation is not a drug, but a piece of software. Go to www.bwgen.com it works via the generation of a binaural beat. I use it often, try it and let me know what you think. One added benefit is to turn all the lights off in your room, put some good closed ear headphones off and do some deep breathing exercises (ie inhale for 6 seconds, exhale for 4). I use the "deep meditation" setting on Bwgen.

Here is some information on binaural betas. The important part is highlighted in bold below:

Theory Behind BrainWave Generator
EEG and the brain's state
EEG (Electroencephalography) technology is used to measure brain's electrical vibrations from the surface of the scalp. The resulting EEG pattern will contain frequency elements mainly below 30Hz. The frequencies are categorized into four states as follows:

State Frequency range State of mind
Delta 0.5Hz - 4Hz Deep sleep
Theta 4Hz - 8Hz Drowsiness (also first stage of sleep)
Alpha 8Hz - 14Hz Relaxed but alert
Beta 14Hz - 30Hz Highly alert and focused

The dominant frequency in the EEG pattern determines what shall be called the current state of the brain. If the amplitude of the alpha range frequencies is highest, then the brain is said to be in the alpha stage. Note, that other frequencies still exist and it is impossible to give any "exact frequency your brain is operating on". However, later references to the brain states use the simplification of assuming that such a single frequency exists.
Entraining the brain to a desired state
If external stimulus is applied to the brain, it becomes possible to entrain the brain frequency from one stage to another. For example, if a person is in beta stage (highly alert) and a stimulus of 10Hz is applied to his/her brain for some time, the brain frequency is likely to change towards the applied stimulus. The effect will be relaxing to the person. This phenomenon is also called frequency following response.

When the brain's state is close to the applied stimulus, entrainment works more efficiently. Thus, when doing a sweep from one frequency to another, the starting frequency should be as close to your current brain state as possible. The sweep speed should be such that your brain's state changes steadily with it, so that the difference never gets very large. In practice, it is difficult to determine your brain state without extra equipment (like EEG devices). However, you can quite safely assume that during the day your brain is in the beta stage (about 20Hz) and you can start the sweep from there. If you are already somewhat relaxed, you can use a start frequency of 15Hz or a few Hz lower.
Stimulating the brain with binaural beat frequencies
The easiest way of applying stimulus to the brain is via ears. Other senses could be used as well, and vision is actually used quite often (often in addition to hearing). However, humans cannot hear sounds low enough to be useful for brain stimulation, so special techniques must be used. One such special technique used is called binaural beats.

If the left ear is presented with a steady tone of 500Hz and the right ear a steady tone of 510Hz, these two tones combine in the brain. The difference, 10Hz, is perceived by the brain and is a very effective stimulus for brainwave entrainment. This 10Hz is formed entirely by the brain. When using stereo headphones, the left and right sounds do not mix together until in your brain. The frequency difference, when perceived by brain this way, is called a binaural beat.
The effect of the audible frequencies used
To get a stimulus of 10Hz, you may use tones of 500Hz and 510Hz, or 400Hz and 410Hz, or 800Hz and 810Hz, or so on. The only requirements are that the tone is heard well enough and that it is below about 1000Hz. Below 1000Hz, the wavelength of the skull is sufficiently small so that the sound waves curve around it.

You may try out different audible tones with BrainWave Generator and see which ones work best for you.
Altered brain states
As mentioned above, applying a stimulus to the brain will eventually bring the brain's state closer to the stimulus frequency. The following paragraphs describe some possible effects of this.

Note, however, that just passively listening to binaural beats does not necessarily alter your state of consciousness. For example, willingness and ability to relax and focus attention affects how effective the binaural beat stimulus is for inducing state changes.
Helping in meditation
Meditation is essentially about willingly being able to alter one's brain frequency to a desired state. While meditators have traditionally used several years to learn the techniques of meditation, you can now attain the same effect with brainwave entrainment. No special training or great discipline is required. Good meditation frequencies are in the alpha range, from 8Hz to 13Hz.

When a certain brainwave state is experienced and practiced over a period of time, the brain will "learn" the state change and it will become easier to self-produce the desired brainwave state at will. Thus, using brainwave entrainment, you can expect to get some of its effects later even without any entrainment.
Reducing learning time
The theta stage (4hz - 7Hz) has been found to increase learning capabilities. In fact, children spend more time in theta stage than adults, which probably explains the accelerated learning capabilities of children.

Alpha frequencies are also useful for learning purposes. You can play language cassettes, subliminal tapes, etc. during an entrainment session for a maximum effect.
Reducing sleep needs
Some people have found that half an hour a day of the Theta stage can replace up to 4 hours of sleep.
Treatment of certain mental diseases
Brainwave entrainment is used in treatment of depression, low self-esteem, attention deficit disorder, drug and alcohol addiction and autism, to name a few.

Brainwave entrainment has also been found helpful in alleviating headaches and migraines.
Miscellaneous
Some users have also reported increases in their sex drive as a result of brainwave entrainment.

[jolly]

This isn't supplement related, but have you thought of looking at an eeg machine to help better train yourself to attain said state?

[brooklynjuice]

I am a person who is obsessed with quick, easy, and sure ways to getting to places or skills or things or mental states -- quick, easy, and sure.
Susma

Not over the counter, not perscribtion...

but fits the bill perfectly...

DMT

[jubai]

Indeed.

For the serious mental explorer: (in order of strength)

LSD
DMT
Salvia
5-Meo-DMT



www.erowid.org for trip reports


So,

"Quick" - Checked
"Sure" - Double Checked
"Easy" - Depends on wether you consider dying a thousand deaths of the ego or crossing the bridge of insanity as beeing easy.



PS: Take above post with a grain of salt.

[zg00]

susmariosep, I've thought about short-cuts to Nirvana a bit myself. The obvious route initially would be entactogens (Greek/Latin hybrid, roughly "to touch within") like MDMA or the various entheogens (Greek, roughly "to cause to be in God") like LSD, DMT, Mescaline and friends. But these effects are going to be short-lived and mostly irreproducible.

Chemicals like these don't actually 'retrain' your mind, they are totally non-specific (to region, or to varying degrees even receptor). So you can use these drugs to create novel states of conciousness but its mearly achieved through the temporary excitation of a particular class (or sub-class) of receptor(s) and this isn't how our brains normally work, our minds use pathways which are much more discreet.

In the future we can look at things like transcranial magnetic stimulation (TMS) and other new or emerging technologies. But right now, the best way we know to retrain the neural seems to be: meditation.

[pSimonKey]

I have found a small amount opium is very good for meditation. This was shown me by a Zen monk. For dream work Calea zacatechichi works really well
http://www.erowid.or...atechichi.shtml

[pSimonKey]

By any means necessary. Even Deepak Chopra recomends nootropics for Qi gung. I think "drugs" are good sign posts when used correctly, and just another negative neurological imprint pattern, when not. Shamanism has had many keys to development for alot longer than science and modern religions but, as with everything else, needs to studied and taught with respect and humility. Thoughs plants and there divas or characteristics/chemical constiuents have so much more to teach us or even remind us of.

[susmariosep]

Thanks, guys, for all your references and explanations.

I am still going through your references and thinking through your explanations.

I made a confession here that I seem to be always in my messages here, at least in some hidden corner, after what I call the mundane chores of life, like cooking, and eating, and other physiologically vital functions and activities, for example, keeping the house clean and raising crops and livestocks: how to bring in the arcane disciplines or theories or practices, like in our present concern, meditation drugs, to the assistance of the mundane life and world.

You see, I seem to be always seeing life in a dichotomy, such as the mundane vs the arcane, the dismal vs the ideal, the drab vs the garb (not a very good figure, I admit), and now I think I have come across what to me is possibly a happy insight, another aspect of the dichotomy of life, namely, the creational vs the recreational.

Okay, here is what I think would be the bonanza of meditation drugs, then meditation would be recreational and of course educational in regard to mystical orientation of human existence.

At present the way I see it, meditation is not recreational: for its physical discomfort and long hours discipline of inactivity or boring efforts to arrive at calming and quieting the mind, it certainly is not recreational.

No, I am not into recreational drugs, but I don't mind recreational meditation from drugs which are over the counter -- therefore legal and safe, of course as usual in moderated amounts. And recreation is enjoyable, so let's have it even with meditation by over the counter drugs. -- Susma

It is not meant to belittle such experiences and say that they have no significance or no value. But as with taking LSD or seeing a good motion picture, they quickly pass into memories. And once past, in a very short time one's old mood changes, petty jealousies, conceits, and irritations are back just as strong and as frequent as ever. If there has been no true and lasting personality change, then Buddhist meditation has fallen short of its intended goal. -- Free

The creational life is what's keeping the physiology working as best as possible and under the most comfortable circumstances, and everything connected in furtherance and in improvement of the creational life, like civil engineering, insecticides, microwave cooking, and yes, of course, bringing liberty and democracy to Iraq and other Islamic societies which are still medievally monarchical, and also into other politically backward and obsolete countries without an enlightened democratic system.

The recreational life on the other side is anything not into strictly or contributively in a substantive manner, creational life; but essentially and in the last analysis for fun, pleasure, relaxation, thrill, amusement, entertainment, pastime.

And what are some samples of the recreational life? Why, what else, but recreational drugs. Then also basically religion and philosophy, at least until they can contribute something concrete to the quicker, easier, surer, and safer achievement of the mundane, dismal, drab, but creational routines and chores and vicissitudes of the physiologically grounded life.


I have been going through the references and the explanations you guys generously provided me; so far meditation drugs are still from my reading and thinking and evaluating to this point, they are more or almost exclusively into the recreational life, and relevant to people who can afford to take up a recreational life, as prescinded from the creational life, or people who prefer the recreational life at the risk of their creational life and often on the expense of people who are into creational life.

Do you notice that for every guy into a predominantly recreational life, like religious theoreticians, for example, Buddha and Buddhist teachers, and philosophy professionals and mentors, there are many, innumerable creational folks into their support, namely, the support of these guys who are predominantly into the luxury of recreational engrossments.

Susma

[drmz]

[quote]Indeed.

For the serious mental explorer: (in order of strength)

LSD
DMT
Salvia
5-Meo-DMT



Put that Salvia up , if you buy 10x extract it's really stronger then LSD or mescaline.

[susmariosep]

Nothing seriously useful from drugs and meditation...

I have been reading about the effects of drugs and also how they can help in meditation, and I have also been always reading and thinking and discussing about religion and philosophy.

More and more I have come to the very serious suspicion that all these things are of no importance in the actual mundane, dismal, drab, creational life, as opposed to the arcane, ideal, garb, and recreational life, which kind of life is basically that accessed into by minds who are possessed of the leisure of time and resources to free themselves from the cares of the creational life, in order to keep busy in a manner with precisely such matters as religious, mystic, esoteric mental occupations, or purely speculative philosophies.

Such minds usually risk if not actually lose the joys of the mundane, dismal, drab, and creational life of man's biological, emotional, and practical existence of reason and sound intelligence.

As we get more and more of sciences to know more and more of life and what it is for and how to enhance it and ennoble it and even to make it endure indefinitely, all those things of the recreational life by drugs, meditation, religion, and philosophy, all of them will become extinct and of museum and archeological or historical interest.

Susma

[scottl]

"As we get more and more of sciences to know more and more of life and what it is for and how to enhance it and ennoble it and even to make it endure indefinitely, all those things of the recreational life by drugs, meditation, religion, and philosophy, all of them will become extinct and of museum and archeological or historical interest."

You can sit in your room and philosophize all you wish, but that does not make it true....

[pSimonKey]

"make it so number one"

[susmariosep]

Tentative conclusion, and closure.


Well, guys here, I think I have given enough time trying to find out how drugs can help me in meditation and how meditation can make me more productive with my brain cells.

Unless some guys can show me how meditation has produced a better mouse trap, I would just stick to systematic rational thinking on the one hand, and on the other go about life and serendipitously every so often come across insights while on my throne in the washroom, or walking downtown in the urban traffic, or strolling in the park: insights to life and to answers in science and technology or understanding of such disciplines.

About drugs in aid of thinking, do we have such drugs that can make people think more productively, even when they don't have, apologies to politically correct folks here, high IQ's like Dawkins and Dennett and Chip here?

What inventions and findings of science can be traced to heightened thinking owing to drug ingestion?


About athletic performance, there are such substances that are performance enhancing. But I understand that there is a risky price to pay for them, in return for the feats of athletic so-called excellence, fake at that.

So if we do have drugs that are cerebrally enhancing?

First, do they really touch a person as to become as good for some hours as an Einstein, and to what concrete purposes in terms of inventing a better mousetrap, or what I consider my pet peeve, looking for a small screw dropped on the floor.

Second, what are the health and long terms life longevity outlook from the ingestion of what we might call mind enhancing substances? Not very reassuring, I am sure.


To sum up: No, I have not come across any accounts of any drugs in aid of meditation and any accounts whereby meditation itself can be contributive to better mental performance than without meditation.

Just stick to your old fashioned conventional and traditional man in the street rational intelligent thinking, and wait without strain for those serendipitous flashes of insights into life and sciences and so-called wisdom, as you go about in your daily routines of making a living and staying alive and comfortable.

The rest if harmless are just so much recreational stuffs. Read my post about the distinction between the creational and the recreational in man's life endeavors, in my post The creational vs the recreational in that thread on Possible Future Topics, Anything On You Mind?

Good luck, or God bless.

Susma

[scottl]

Susma,

"I think I have given enough time trying to find out...how meditation can make me more productive"

Have you even spent literally 120 seconds?

If you sit in your room and ponder how to ride a bike does that help you one iota in actually learning to ride?


You seem to have...a phobia about actually trying it....which is totally your perogative. But that is not the same as actually trying it even for 120 seconds.

[pSimonKey]

I have found it more productive to "meditate" or "contemplate" on/with an object eg a lighted bees wax candle, a plant (a great experience to suddenly realise the life share with a plant), a rock, breath or heartbeat or a mantra such as Om. Something to give the mind/ego something to rest on. Choose one and try and do just 5 minutes everyday for a month. I am always amazed at the reasons my mind/ego will come up with to avoid this kind of exercise, almost like trying to decide to go for a run everyday (I am living in the UK it is easy to not go out in the rain).