<BJKlein> Immortality In Fiction
<BJKlein> The idea of an infinite lifespan has permeated fiction writing for thousands of years.
<BJKlein> The earliest known writing of this sort, as noted by ImmInst member Utnapishtim, were the Sumerian writing's of "The Epic of Gilgamesh" circa 3000 BC.
<BJKlein> Consequently, Utnapishtim based his nick after the immortal character in these stories. As Utnapishtim says, he is "the archetype on which Deucalion, Noah of Greek and Hebrew mythology are based".
<BJKlein> Fiction writers have focused on how immortality can be achieved. Some through biomedical advancements, robotic enhancements, cryonics, uploading, and even resurrection of the dead.
<BJKlein> Others have looked at what might happen to a super longevity culture and how humans might survive over population and boredom.
<BJKlein> Ok.. thanks for listening... thought?
<Lazarus> Agreed, Immortality is not a new topic, and there are numerous examples of the quest extending back to the earliest literature and legends
<BJKlein> Right, as as you have suggested, Laz, humans have been thinking about this long before written records
<Discarnate> Indeed- I can't think of a culture where there's not been an immortal meme, one way or anohter.
<Lazarus> Most ancient legends tell of chemical solutions involving potients, or magical devices that impart a power of long life or invulnerability, or grace of devine intervention
<Discarnate> In many cases, this was NOT immortality of the body, but of the persona...
<Lazarus> Of the persona we can look at most eastern religious themes
<Lazarus> Reincarnation vs nirvana as an example
<Lazarus> Virtually ALL human spiritual systems involve the immortality of spirit or soul
<Discarnate> Also the judeo/christian, also the druidic, etc.
<Discarnate> *Nod*
<BJKlein> And the reasoning behind the quest, I believe, is general discontent concerning explinations for an afterlife.
<Discarnate> quest = quest for immortality, I assume
<BJKlein> right
<Lazarus> What happens is that there occurs a kind of dychotomy associated with the anthropomorphism of spirit
<Lazarus> Many cultures absolutely DO NOT define a Supreme being in any form as human, but most westen ones do
<Discarnate> Even the western ones often include an expansion on the human - something beyond normal humanity's reach.
<BJKlein> Right, If anyone has their favorite immortal fiction.. feel free to post
<Lazarus> Many native American religions viewed the soul as manifest of the Great Spirit as sort of a drop of water within a Cosmic ocean, but the idea of a ghost was absurd to them
<Lazarus> Individual spirits were reabsorbed but what gave immortality was the memory preserved in tribal oral culture
<Discarnate> The conditional immortals are fascinating to me - such as the ancestor worship of the oriental world, where the ancestors are immortal only so long as they remain remembered in the world.
<Lazarus> For many cultures the idea of the creation of history was the beginning of the creation of immortality
<Nus> Tolkien's writing is anti-immortalist, seeing as how it involves a myth about an ancient civilization killed off by the gods for fighting them to gain immortality (no doubt a theme that resurfaces now and again)
<Discarnate> As in the goal of creation, Lazarus? Or in some other light?
<Lazarus> In Tolkien, Elves are imortal and remain so to the end of the series when they decide to leave the world of Men and Middle Earth
<Discarnate> Nus - but it also contains the Autumn Lands, accessible only through elvish magic, where all would live forever.
<BJKlein> Nus, does not the ring grant immortality?
<Nus> alright, anti-human-immortality
<BJKlein> btw, Susan is so excited to see that one
<Lazarus> The idea of Human as mortal by definition os also at the core of the Babylon Myth
<Discarnate> Looking forward to it, here, too, BJ
<Nus> BJKlein: don't remember, could be; if so, it might violate the second law of thermodynamics, that would be interesting.
<Nus> Isn't there also a theme of giving up immortality for (mere) love in the movies? :D
<Nus> Probably in the books too, don't remember.
<Discarnate> BJ, it gave unnatural life - immortality is possibly a different gift.
<Discarnate> Sure - Aragon's wife, played by Liv Tyler so... well, poorly, in the 1st movie
<Nus> Right
<Discarnate> Can't remember the character's name, tho'.
<Lazarus> Arawen
<Nus> -a
<Discarnate> That's it. Arwen.
<Lazarus> Your right Arwen
<BJKlein> Dracula, there's one
<Lazarus> Frankenstein by Shelly is a quest for Immortality
<BJKlein> why are we so drawn to this theme?
<Nus> I don't like how it's taken up by Luddites as symbolism - "we'll abolish all the machines and live on a nice world, just like Middle Earth!". Other than that, it's not bad at all
<BJKlein> rather, why are we so drawn to Dracula?
<Nus> I'm not
<Lazarus> In many ways the theme of immortality overlaps the lust for power in literature
<Discarnate> BJ - hidden power always is fascinating
<Lazarus> Again the view of the revolution of gods as in the war between Titans and Olympians in Greek mythology
<Lazarus> Promethius immortality and Godhood was why he could not die from his punishment for helping humans but also an example of hell, where he could not escape pain through death
<Discarnate> Interesting, isn't it, that most accounts of hell weave in immortality? "Death is a release", after all..
<Lazarus> The sacred naming of constellations was also a means of transfiguring immortality even upon great heroes
* Nus thinks the Greeks had a rather sick imagination in that respect
<BJKlein> it's the boredom factor... I believe
<BJKlein> everyone's perfect hell, immortal boredom
<Lazarus> i9mmortal boredom is a relatively modern concept, a consequence of wealth and living long enough to enjoy it
<BJKlein> right.. living longer is not exactly great, if your decrepid and bored
<Lazarus> most ancient cultues had eternal toil (Sysiphus) eternal pain, etc
<BJKlein> decrepit*
<Lazarus> I give up correcting typoes unless they are completely incoherent
<Lazarus> <
<BJKlein> that should be a rule
<BJKlein> no correcting of typos allowed
<BJKlein> unless, as you say, they take away from meaning.
<Discarnate> Typoitis rules. *wry grin*
<Lazarus> Discarnate, you asked me a question before and I missed it, could you re ask it please?
<BJKlein> or let's say "Guidelines for Chat"
<Lazarus> Sometimes typoes create the serendity effect of wholly new understanding from chaos
<Lazarus> see... serendipity
<BJKlein> heh
<BJKlein> makes me thinkg serin gass
<Lazarus> is that stinkin gas or serin gas?
<BJKlein> ser·in (ser'in)
<BJKlein> n.
<BJKlein> Any of several Old World finches of the genus Serinus having yellowish plumage
<Discarnate> Laz - Don't see it in the scroll buffer...
<Discarnate> *shrug*
<BJKlein> to go from sefindipity to finches
* BJKlein brb
<Lazarus> It was right before we went to middle earth
<Michael-away> What percentage of fictional stories involving immortal characters actually explain the mechanism of their immortality plausibly
<Nus> [02:22] <Discarnate> As in the goal of creation, Lazarus? Or in some other light?
<Nus> that one?
<Lazarus> Authorship is itself a quest for immortality
<Nus> Michael - good question
<Lazarus> The narator is the first immortal
<MichaelA> I would guess ~0.0001%
<Lazarus> Hi Michael
<Nus> Most fantasy stories are way unrealistic anyway; they should be able to do a Magic Singularity
<MichaelA> And obviously none of them have described a plausible mechanism in *complete* detail
<Lazarus> Monotheism is a form of Singularity myth
<Nus> Why?
<MichaelA> Any story involving an intelligence near human but with more capabilities of any kind would realistically end up with them transferring their thought and action onto nonanthropomorphic timescales
<MichaelA> Hey Laz
<Lazarus> God is all
<MichaelA> King of Kings ^^
<MichaelA> monotheism and the Singularity have very little to do with each other, except they both lead to better-than-now outcomes (I guess)
<Nus> Monotheism would probably lead to eternity in hell for me; that's not better-than-now
<MichaelA> being an angel forever would get pretty boring, unless you could warp yourself into non-angel shapes
<MichaelA> True
<Lazarus> The trend away from paganistic multiple deities toward monotheistic Cosmic uity is a Singularity concept
<MichaelA> Depends on what sort of monotheism
<Lazarus> unity
<MichaelA> Ehhhhh, only very abstractly
<MichaelA> In what way does the Singularity signify unity?
<MichaelA> I think the Singularity *demands* unity
<MichaelA> before it
<Lazarus> True Micheal Catholics aren't even monotheistic even though they fervently claim they are, on a stack of bibles while fiddling with rosaries
<Nus> As t goes to infinity, the probability of a Singularity tends to unity
<Utnapishtim> hey
<Nus> Welcome back, Tim
<MichaelA> The probability of sing or existential catastroph
<MichaelA> e
<Nus> Michael: I was including aliens
<Nus> well, alright
<MichaelA> In all possible universes?
<Nus> not even then
<Nus> Just this one, actually
<Nus>
<MichaelA> Nice try
<Lazarus> aliens equal angels in the evolution of fictional themes
<MichaelA> They also equal fairies
<Lazarus> remember even satan is an angel
<Utnapishtim> Lazarus: abduction style aliens equal angels and fairies
<MichaelA> I think "Lucifer" is more polite
<Discarnate> Well, a fallen angel
* Nus imagines Satan in a flying saucer
<Utnapishtim> the concept of aliens is merely reasonable speculation
<Lazarus> angels are not all good but reflect a duality in most religious and fictional themes
<Nus> Utnap, why reasonable?
<Discarnate> Politeness w/ the devil. *chuckle* What a concept!
<Nus> Well, not completely unreasonable
<Lazarus> As good as sympathy
<MichaelA> Politeness to his ephemeral memetic presence which we bend to our own humor
<Utnapishtim> Dicarnate: The christian author CS Lewis developed that idea quite interestingly in abook called the Screwtape letters
<Lazarus> Have some curtesy and grace...
<Discarnate> Utnap - It's a wonderful book. But I prefer laughing at the devil.
<Discarnate> *quiet grin*
<Utnapishtim> Nus: Given the size of merely the observable universe it is reasonable to speculate about whether or not other life forms might inhabit other planet and what forms they might take
<Lazarus> Goethe, develops Dr. Faust as a man who sells his soul to save others and end sufferring and death
<MichaelA> um, Laz, was your catholic comment trying to signify that Catholics aren't really monotheistic?
<Nus> Utnap: agreed.
<Nus> Never mind.
<Utnapishtim> Catholics are Tritheistic?
<MichaelA> I know that protestants are against that Holy Trinity thing
<Lazarus> Despite their fervent claims to the contrary they are still debating the polytheistic aspects of their Holy Trinity
<MichaelA> hm, and Protestantism is more sophisticated than Catholicism, sort of
<MichaelA> Can I have the ultimate religion if my God consists of a 0-dimensional point?
<Lazarus> I watched the celebration of the Virgin of Guadeloupe the other night here and it was NOT a monotheistic event
<Nus> Michael: that would be the penultimate religion
<Utnapishtim> I don't honestly think that the abrahamic faiths really allow for that sophisticated an interpretation
<Nus> My god is the empty set
<MichaelA> Yeah, lots of converted countries really hopped onto the mother figure of Mary
<MichaelA> A religion in which the mother was unknown would never have propagated memetically
<Lazarus> The basilica is built on an ancient shrine to Teontzcin, the Aztec Earth Goddess
<Utnapishtim> I believe some interestign speculation that the iconography ogf the virgin mary
<MichaelA> penultimate*, right
<Utnapishtim> derives from egyptian depictions of the goddess Isis with the infant Horus
<Discarnate> Michael - that would be the ultimate minimalist religion, as compared to ultimate religion in which God would be a N dimensional object/being, N approaching infinity
<Utnapishtim> I read some interesting that should have been
<Lazarus> And the danzantes doing ancient Nauhua Serpent dances were not even remotely Christian
<MichaelA> But then God would have volume
<Nus> God's dimension increases?
<MichaelA> And that would violate the memetic trend towards absolute unambiguity and unity
<Nus> Actually, I've heard that an infinite-dimensional unit sphere has volume zero.
<MichaelA> (If this trend is correct)
<Nus> Don't ask me why, because I don't know.
<MichaelA> Hm
<Discarnate> God is, theoretically in most any religion I can think of, greater than thine or mine.
<Utnapishtim> I think that attacking the notion of an omniscient creator God intellectually is like shooting fish in a barrel
<Lazarus> Ironically Buddhism claims no belief in a God
<MichaelA> Uth, completely
<Utnapishtim> Lazarus: Buddhism also claims that all existence is suffering
<MichaelA> That's why it's so sad that so many atheists are fixated on that
<Utnapishtim> an idea I find neither noble or true
<Lazarus> Yes they do but not with any idea of an afterlife per se, only through achievement of Nirvana and can the identity escape the trap of the body's mortality, so they do hold out an immortality meme like a carrot with their stick of pain
<Utnapishtim> Michael: Since it is an obviously insupportable position I have to conclude that otherwise bright people who believe such stories wish to do so. It would therefore be classless and aggressive to attempt to divest them of it
<MichaelA> It's interesting that they create a correlation between immortality and a special certain kind of consciousness though
<MichaelA> I suppose most religions do
<MichaelA> But Bhuddists actually refer to a type of consciousness which may be neurobiologically verifiable
<Lazarus> Clearly we all agree that the immortality meme exists as a universal human meme so why do some religions then take the attitude that the quest for it is immoral?
<MichaelA> But there's always the "God module", I guess...
<MichaelA> Uth: I know, and usually it's not cost-effective in any sense to communicate with them, sadl
<MichaelA> sadly*
* MichaelA broke the correction rule
<Lazarus> We need a Chat module that reads minds and corrects spelling for us
<Utnapishtim> There ARE faith based belief systems that reject metaphysical speculation about Deities
<Utnapishtim> Confucianism, Communism, to name two
<Lazarus> I raised that point before you got her Utpanishtim
<Nus> I don't think communism is faith based
<Nus> Just incorrect
<MichaelA> I don't think "faith" has a sufficiently sharp definition for most of our purposes
<MichaelA> Scientists use "intuition" to guide themselves towards theories all the time
<Lazarus> Both Communism and Capitalism are basically systems of faith in economc models
<MichaelA> What's an example of a non-faith based system
<MichaelA> See, I *know* many would disagree/argue with you on that
<Lazarus> Adherents believe they don't understand
<Utnapishtim> Lazarus: Capitalism creates more stuff
<Utnapishtim> it is better at creating
<Lazarus> Most adherents, I should say but also the models work because people practice their belief
<MichaelA> Yep
<Utnapishtim> that is a fact not a fervent faith based belief
<MichaelA> The psychological component is practically the substance of the system
<MichaelA> Any economic system, as long as you're not deliberately going against your instincts, "creates more stuff", on average, integrated over long periods of time
<Lazarus> I am not saying one is better then the other, I am saying that they function as religious models for most practictioners
<MichaelA> That's called "positive-sum gaming"
<Lazarus> Most religions are more concerned with collective behavior then the theist doctrines that get debated about
<MichaelA> Laz, the words you're using have sooo much sociocultural stigma
<Lazarus> precisely correct Micheal that is why I am saying they are " faith-Based"
<MichaelA> Religions just reflect the natural human tendencies to do what humans usually do
<MichaelA> Under your definition, what's a system that isn't faith-based at all?
<Lazarus> Again I tend to agree, we use our mythological models to rationalize. To both justify and explain our belief system in a behavior ethos
<Nus> Mathematics, maybe :D
<Utnapishtim> Michael: Socialist economic models collapse because they are not as good at creating stuff. They survive and persist because they seem inuitively fairer, not because they have any particular merit
<MichaelA> Haha
<MichaelA> Nus: that's the best candidate
<Nus> The one and only real truth.
<Nus> And so on.
<MichaelA> Unfortunately it's truth about a world not quite like ours
<MichaelA> As our mathematics gets more detailed it can be used to draw more and more correspondences to the actual world
<MichaelA> Uth: I agree
<Nus> I still think the physical world is a subset of the mathematical world, though I'm much less sure on that than I used to be
<MichaelA> Their merit *is* that they seem intuitively fairer and they're a better model than many previous ones
<MichaelA> Nus: you can think of it like that
<Lazarus> Mathematics is a language that uses complex grammar to accurately reflect physical perception as that defines our "reality"
<MichaelA> What new evidence changed your mind?
<Nus> No new evidence, just new thoughts on The Nature Of Mathematical Truth and so on.
<MichaelA> Grammar that reflects much more fundamental regularities in the world than most human stuff
<Lazarus> Numbers=Words, Formulamatic relationships=Grammar
<Nus> Summarized as, I'm confused now.
<Nus> Lazarus,
<Nus> Mathematics is more than a language; it's also a body of truths
<Nus> There are no theorems in English
<Lazarus> The truths are simply descriptions of phenomenon that consistently occur
<Nus> In physical reality, you mean?
<Lazarus> Human language is semantically too relativistic to possess truths that is why math is the only true Universal languge because it reflects abstract ideas
<caliban> hello immortals
<MichaelA> Doesn't the MWT sort of imply that physical reality is a subset of the space of all mathematically possible variants?
<MichaelA> Hey Caliban
<Nus> hmnotreally
<BJKlein> Welcome Back caliban
<Nus> hullo, caliban
<Utnapishtim> Lazarus: Numbers are measuring devices. Placing the value of your measuring device before the calue of the thing being measured is intellectually dangerous. I believe the Greeks fell down this particular whole
<Lazarus> Define a truth of math that is not in some way a translation of Physics, or a specific relationship of abstract mathematical concepts?
<Nus> Michael: I would say it's suggestive evidence, though
<MichaelA> I think you're way ahead of me on this one Nus
<Utnapishtim> hey Caliban
<Nus> I'm not sure
<Lazarus> I agree Utnap, but it is not impossible to do, just very dangerous
<BJKlein> btw, Caliban is ImmInst's newest Advisor - Speciality: legal issues conserning life extension
<caliban> BJ: hey, remember to change the topic on sundays in order that latecomers -like me- know what the fireside chat is about
* Nus is really to sleepy to talk of these things
<BJKlein> is it not changed?
<Lazarus> Numbers and names are the eariest form of protolanguage
<Nus> *too
<MichaelA> Congratulations, Caliban
<BJKlein> ahh there we go
<Nus> whoops, broke the rules
<MichaelA> Ohhh well
<Utnapishtim> Money is an excellent example of a measurement that takes precedence over what it is ostensibly measuring
<Lazarus> They began as mesuring devices but took on a life of their own Hi Caliban!
<MichaelA> It takes much longer to type with 100% accuracy than to type with 99.5%, imo
<Nus> Utnap, I don't think numbers should be seen as measuring devices or anything directly to do with physical reality, but as parts of axiom systems
<Nus> structures
<Lazarus> See what I mean?
<BJKlein> btw.. new forum area: "Regional", suggestion thankst to Caliban and Utnapishtim, help there appreciated.
<Lazarus> Well folks this place is closing so I have to go, It's been fun
<Nus> Byebye
<BJKlein> Ok..Take Care LogLady
<BJKlein> uhhhh
<Nus> heh
<Nus> Tab is annoying like that sometimes
<BJKlein> sure can be
<BJKlein> See ya Lazarus
<Lazarus> By the way, before I go infinity as an example of an immortality meme is a mathematical concept
<caliban> bye Laz!
<Lazarus> C-ya all on the fun way
<Utnapishtim> See ya Laz
* Nus has always been an "all-is-number" fan, but is now confused to the point where even Google no longer helps
<Utnapishtim> <!--emo&<!--emo&lol--><img src='http://www.imminst.o...ons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->--><img src='http://www.imminst.o...ons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
* Nus is also still confused about huge lookup tables
<Nus> and so on.
<caliban> BJ; "Europe" is a bit broad could you do "German" and "UK" instead or as well please?
<BJKlein> sure
<MichaelA> What sorts of tables, is it esoteric stuff? :D
<Nus> As relating to consciousness
<Utnapishtim> Nus: If google can't help its a lost cause
<Nus> Whether huge lookup tables are conscious, everything is mathematically isomorphic and therefore conscious, that sort of rubbish
<Nus> it leads to esoteric technical metaphysical discussions
<Nus> about weird words like "haecceitism"
* caliban suspects the topic "immortality in fiction" was shed a while ago :-)
<Utnapishtim> please lets keep that particular door shut tonight
<Nus> which is philosopherese for "thisnessism"
<Utnapishtim> my head really cant take it this evening
<Utnapishtim> caliban: Have you ever known official topics to last mroe than 30 mins or so?
<MichaelA> Ok, we can keep that door shut, but I'm googling
<BJKlein> heh.. last week we talked Rationality for 6hrs
<Utnapishtim> I misssed that one I believe
<BJKlein> till 2am ET
<BJKlein> yeh.. I missed that one too, and I was even here
<BJKlein> went way over my head
<Nus> Michael: there's a lot of fun in that direction in Hans Moravec' usenet posts
<MichaelA> Wow!
<taza0> there's an interesting form of immortality developed later in Simmons's Hyperion series (although rather mediocre after the first book, it has some interesting ideas) for example, the church becomes revitalized with the introduction of a parasite cruciform that can grant resurrection
<MichaelA> heh :x
<MichaelA> Hans Moravec's essays are classic.
<MichaelA> The ones not about robotics, anyway
<caliban> yeah Moravec is fun
<Nus> I think Eliezer believes in noncomputable qualia because of the lookup table problems
<Nus> but am not sure
<Nus> Moravec has an essay online somewhere called "simulation, consciousness, existence"
<Nus> I think
<Nus> it's great fun
<MichaelA> Yep, that's the best one
<MichaelA> Reallly
<MichaelA> I've read all the Chalmers/Dennett battles and I still don't know whether qualia exist as an independent, nonreducible dealie or not
<Nus> I think I'd agree with Dennett but am still quite bothered by the lookup table thing; some think it implies everything that behaves the same has the same consciousness (ie behaviorism); some (Putnam) think that refutes functionalism, others (Moravec) bite the bullet and believe in a really weird mathematical panpsychism
<Nus> Moravec think muppets are conscious
<MichaelA> I've leaned towards a sort of panpsychism before due to a variety of influences
<MichaelA> I just don't like drawing lines in the sand when it comes to consciousness or experience
<Nus> "Does a rock implement every finite-state automaton?"
<MichaelA> Yep, I read that like a year ago
<MichaelA> The people that argue against that have the propensity to take cheap shots which makes it all the more confusing
<Nus> Chalmers claims to have refuted that, but the others disagree, and that's where it gets technical
<Nus> *the others -> others
<MichaelA> I've checked out the views of a dozen or so philosophers of mind and I'd say that I'm most closely in agreement with Valerie Hardcastle today
<Nus> heh
<MichaelA> (it could change next week)
<Nus> never heard of her
<BJKlein> Regional Forums look on caliban?
<MichaelA> She's not as directly in the spotlight as Dennet or Chalmers but she's a credible theorist, she says that in order to get a better sense of what we mean by consciousness with require analyzing dynamic models of brain activity on different levels of abstraction than we've been using so far
<Nus> It's a really annoying world where one has to find out these things for oneself without there being a generally agreed answer
<Nus> Hm
<MichaelA> Heh
<Utnapishtim> Nus: I think this particular need is fairly high up the hierarchy though....
<MichaelA> Like, many would agree that some areas of the brain influence subjective experience more than others
<Nus> Very true, Utnap
<MichaelA> You could map out what sorts of brain activity correspond to what precise sorts of conscious experience and try to postulate the functional difference between information processing with the sensation of consciousness and without it
<snip>
<Gordon> how was the chat? I was watching Fellowship of the Ring (my youngest sister needed a refresher for Wednesday)
<MichaelA> fairly quick, only lasted just over an hour, started out with immortality fiction and then went off on a few tangents
