33 replies to this topic

[canz]

This thread is an extension of my sustainable mood enhancer thread, and is my conclusion of what I've determined I should start supplementing to obtain and sustain clear and increased cognition, stress and anxiety reduction, as well as immune and endocrine system stabilization. I will list each herb/supplement below as well as concerns and questions that I have for them:

Ginko Biloba: 60mg once or twice per day (depends on my sensitivity to it) of 24% flavone glycosides and 6% terpene lactones.

Ashwaghanda: I'm having some troubles figuring out what would be a good dose for this. I would like to take it once or twice daily with the Ginko, but I'm worried about the sedating effects. I have read that a low dose has minimal sedating effect. My question is about the % of witholanides. What is a good percentage of witholanides for this herb in supplement form? What is considered a low dose as well as high dose per mg considering % of witholanides?

Gotu Kola: Same question as Ashwaghanda, but what % of asiatocosides is acceptable, and what is considered a low/high dosage?

5HTP: I'll be dosing this at 100mg per night before bed. No questions on this, but if you all have any feedback it would be appreciated

Phosphatidyl Serine: 100mg-300mg per night. I thinking more along the lines of 100mg, but may experiement with more.

ZMA; Zinc Magnesium Apartame, 30mg per night of the mix

Lion's Mane: I'm wondering if this should be taken at night or during the day. From what I understand there may be some sedative effects? Also, I am a little worried about getting a good product with this. I understand that the mycelium is the best part of the mushroom that produces the best results. I'm thinking 500mg is an acceptable dose, but am a little confused of what I should be looking for in an effective product.

In addition to these I will be taking 500mg L-Tyrosine 3x daily in between meals, 4g Tribulus Terrestris, 3g Fish Oil, 3g Virgin Coconut Oil, and 1 tablet of AOR's Multi 3 Basic.

I will start with the 5HTP, ZMA and PS at bedtime right away, but use each of the others one at a time for at least a week so that I can determine my reaction to each supplement before supplementing them together. Once I've determined how I react to each, I will add in one at a time to determine how they interact with each other.

Overall questions: Do you see any interactions of the above that I should be aware of? Do any of these cancel out or amplify each other? What are some recommended brands?

Edited by canz, 18 November 2011 - 12:59 PM.

[nupi]

In addition to these I will be taking 500mg L-Tyrosine 3x daily in between meals, 4g Tribulus Terrestris, 3g Fish Oil, 3g Virgin Coconut Oil, and 1 tablet of AOR's Multi 3 Basic.

This three times seems like a lot, especially for the Tyrosine and the Fish Oil... For Ashwaghanda, look into Jarrow's, they have a 8% withanolide extract that is quite competitively priced. I would start of with one pill and potentially go to two, but truth to be told, I can't say I ever noticed much if anything at all. I had much better experience with using Bacopa against anxiety but it does diminish libido a lot (this may or not be bothersome to you)

[canz]

In addition to these I will be taking 500mg L-Tyrosine 3x daily in between meals, 4g Tribulus Terrestris, 3g Fish Oil, 3g Virgin Coconut Oil, and 1 tablet of AOR's Multi 3 Basic.

This three times seems like a lot, especially for the Tyrosine and the Fish Oil... For Ashwaghanda, look into Jarrow's, they have a 8% withanolide extract that is quite competitively priced. I would start of with one pill and potentially go to two, but truth to be told, I can't say I ever noticed much if anything at all. I had much better experience with using Bacopa against anxiety but it does diminish libido a lot (this may or not be bothersome to you)

I had my eye on the Jarrow's sensoril, but wanted to get a consensus of suggested brands. Initially I thought about using bacopa instead of ashwaghanda but didn't want to worry about diminished libido, and it seems that ashwaghanda has a more well rounded profile (stress relief, immune system boost as well as hormone stabilization). Thanks for your recommendations. I may need to play with the tyrosine dose with these other supplements, but as for now 500mg x3 has worked fine for me. As far as the fish oil, are you saying 3g is too much fish oil? I consider that a low dose compared to what I've seen others take.

[X_Danny_X]

Bacopa you want to take at night. It is good to help put you to sleep. Ashawandhanda works well together with Bacopa for memory enhancement.

Virgin Coconut Oil you basically use to cook with. Fish Oil you can take anytime.

Bacopa you want to take at night. It is good to help put you to sleep. Ashawandhanda works well together with Bacopa for memory enhancement.

Virgin Coconut Oil you basically use to cook with. Fish Oil you can take anytime.

I sometimes wonder if you really need Lion's Mane. Your body does what Lion's Mane does to you when you studying or thinking. It works well with ALCAR though.

Edited by X_Danny_X, 18 November 2011 - 04:52 PM.

[thedevinroy]

For Gotu Kola, just get a whole herb powder, you don't need an extract. It is high in B vitamins, so it is better for you in whole form. It's a nutritional herb. For Ashwagandha, I have only tried a 2.9mg Witholanides per 650mg pill... and I took three, and it was awesome. Warm, happy, chill, but still motivated. Perhaps that is the key - taking a less "standardized" extract and why my experiences are vastly different from others.

As for Ginkgo, I take like... way more than that of that specific extract... like 8x more than that per day. 480mg total, some days more. Perhaps I've built up a tolerance to it or something, but it works like magic mixed with black tea and fish oil.

ZMA you take at night? Why? I would think it would be stimulating. It would probably offset the Serotonergic/GABAergic effects from the herbs. Just a thought.

Lion's Mane is sedating, sometimes for extended periods of time beyond the night time and into the morning (from experiences I've read). It does synergize with ALCAR well, but only for a period of time. NGF stimulating can cause outward growth of nerves and increase sensations as well as headaches from what seems to be a physically growing nervous system. Remember Mojo-jojo?

Who needs a skull when you have NGF?

Edited by devinthayer, 18 November 2011 - 09:02 PM.

[X_Danny_X]

Which Ashwangandha product contains the most Withanolide?

I just buy my from Vitamin Shoppe, though I dont know if it is the best brand.

[nupi]

If Withanolide content is the only interest, Jarrow's extract has the highest.

I also have the NOW Extract here (4.5% Withanolides and 450mg) as well as Swansons Extract (450mg, 1.5% Withanolides, it's somewhere, I know it) so maybe I give the NOW another shot, this time in the morning (not in the evening, concurrently with the Bacopa)

Edited by nupi, 19 November 2011 - 02:43 AM.

[thedevinroy]

Which Ashwangandha product contains the most Withanolide?

I just buy my from Vitamin Shoppe, though I dont know if it is the best brand.

As far as Vitamin Shoppe goes, http://www.vitaminsh....jsp?id=NW-7300 this one has the most per serving... about 7.5mg. However, you are better off buying something online with more in a capsule.

[X_Danny_X]

but doesnt Bacopa along with Ashwangandha make you sleepy and take away your sex drive? Therefor, isnt it better to take it at night.

What other ingredients should i be looking for when it comes to an Ashwangandha product?

[nupi]

In my view, Bacopa kills your sex drive no matter when you take it (BTW by that I do not mean that you could not, it just that you dont really care, along with a whole bunch of other things that seem less important, which is why I like it so much). It may make you sleepy or it may just relax you, depending on the dose and your response. I would simply try and see what happens if you take it in the afternoon, then you will know.

For the Ashwaghanda, there won't be any other ingredients listed, most likely.

Edited by nupi, 19 November 2011 - 02:54 AM.

[canz]

For Gotu Kola, just get a whole herb powder, you don't need an extract. It is high in B vitamins, so it is better for you in whole form. It's a nutritional herb. For Ashwagandha, I have only tried a 2.9mg Witholanides per 650mg pill... and I took three, and it was awesome. Warm, happy, chill, but still motivated. Perhaps that is the key - taking a less "standardized" extract and why my experiences are vastly different from others.

As for Ginkgo, I take like... way more than that of that specific extract... like 8x more than that per day. 480mg total, some days more. Perhaps I've built up a tolerance to it or something, but it works like magic mixed with black tea and fish oil.

ZMA you take at night? Why? I would think it would be stimulating. It would probably offset the Serotonergic/GABAergic effects from the herbs. Just a thought.

Lion's Mane is sedating, sometimes for extended periods of time beyond the night time and into the morning (from experiences I've read). It does synergize with ALCAR well, but only for a period of time. NGF stimulating can cause outward growth of nerves and increase sensations as well as headaches from what seems to be a physically growing nervous system. Remember Mojo-jojo?

Who needs a skull when you have NGF?

I'll probably look for an Ashwaghanda product with less witholanides so that I can take the most minimal dose possible and work may way up if the sedating effects aren't debilitating.

The same goes for the Ginko. I plan on starting at 60mg twice daily. If I feel that I can tolerate more I'll work my way up. I'm hoping that I can gain benefits from the lowest dose possible. It saves money and keeps me from having to swallow hundreds of pills daily.

I take ZMA at night...simply because the instructions on the bottle say to do so. That is my only explanation. I've never tried to take it during the day. The instructions on the bottle are to take it at night 30 minutes before bed on an empty stomach.

Lion's mane is the one that I was the most hesitant about. It sounds great, stimulating NGF, but the side effects seem to outweigh the benefits. I can't walk around everyday as a zombie with a headache, and having my brain exposed like Mojo-jojo isn't an option in the current environment I'm in .

Thanks for your feedback.

[canz]

In my view, Bacopa kills your sex drive no matter when you take it (BTW by that I do not mean that you could not, it just that you dont really care, along with a whole bunch of other things that seem less important, which is why I like it so much). It may make you sleepy or it may just relax you, depending on the dose and your response. I would simply try and see what happens if you take it in the afternoon, then you will know.

For the Ashwaghanda, there won't be any other ingredients listed, most likely.

This is why I decided against bacopa. I'd like to decrease anxiety, but not at the expense of my libido. From what I've read Ashwaghanda helps with hormone regulation as well, which is another reason why I chose it over bacopa.

[Baten]

60mg of ginkgo seems a very little dose. For me it starts working at at least 120mg.

Like devinthayer, I easily take over 400mg when I take ginkgo. It isn't all that spectacular though.

Taking that much ginkgo is laxative at first, but the 5th day my body was already used to this much.

[canz]

60mg of ginkgo seems a very little dose. For me it starts working at at least 120mg.

Like devinthayer, I easily take over 400mg when I take ginkgo. It isn't all that spectacular though.

Taking that much ginkgo is laxative at first, but the 5th day my body was already used to this much.

Good to know. I'm usually fairly sensitive to supplements that's why I'll start low. I'm going to be using each one individually for a week or more so that I can adjust the doses appropriately.

[Baten]

Also, I read that taking supplements that promote brain blood flow such as ginkgo, aniracetam, niacin and others, could lead to a mild depression when stopping supplementation.

Of course, just a while until your body gets used to its former state. Just mentioning so you won't be too alarmed.

[nupi]

This is why I decided against bacopa. I'd like to decrease anxiety, but not at the expense of my libido. From what I've read Ashwaghanda helps with hormone regulation as well, which is another reason why I chose it over bacopa.

Sounds reasonable. I am probably weird (scratch that, I know I am) but the libido part does not bother me the least - maybe except on an intellectual level thinking that conventional wisdom says its a bad thing but I was always quite liberal about disregarding conventional wisdom plus I could never actually figure out why it supposedly is a bad thing...

[canz]

Also, I read that taking supplements that promote brain blood flow such as ginkgo, aniracetam, niacin and others, could lead to a mild depression when stopping supplementation.

Of course, just a while until your body gets used to its former state. Just mentioning so you won't be too alarmed.

I anticipate that this goes for any supplementation. After all, that's why we supplement right? Something is off kilter in our mind or bodies so we decide to enhance through supplementation. My intent is to stay on these supplements for quite a while, only taking breaks once every other month or so for a week or so at a time. Something else that I'm interested in though is, does your body necessarily go back to it's former state? Or could it adjust through supplementation and actually maintain some (if not all) of the enhancments? I don't know the answer, but I'm willing to give it a go.

[Baten]

Something else that I'm interested in though is, does your body necessarily go back to it's former state? Or could it adjust through supplementation and actually maintain some (if not all) of the enhancments? I don't know the answer, but I'm willing to give it a go.

I suppose this really varies between supplements. I'm pretty sure that some things have permanent benefits, others disappear when you stop supplementing.

[X_Danny_X]

In my view, Bacopa kills your sex drive no matter when you take it (BTW by that I do not mean that you could not, it just that you dont really care, along with a whole bunch of other things that seem less important, which is why I like it so much). It may make you sleepy or it may just relax you, depending on the dose and your response. I would simply try and see what happens if you take it in the afternoon, then you will know.

For the Ashwaghanda, there won't be any other ingredients listed, most likely.

This is why I decided against bacopa. I'd like to decrease anxiety, but not at the expense of my libido. From what I've read Ashwaghanda helps with hormone regulation as well, which is another reason why I chose it over bacopa.

you should take Selegiline/Deprenyl and it is a life extension drug. i am going to switch it when i run out of ritalin. it will negate the Bacopa effect of having a low libido or sex drive. heck ritalin beats out Bacopa and i get a drive to just have sex. which is hard for me since i am trying not to masturbate or have sex for a month. holy sh!t this is tough!

Edited by X_Danny_X, 19 November 2011 - 04:57 PM.

[thedevinroy]

Ashwagandha I found a lot more tolerable during the day than Bacopa. Bacopa knocked me out and killed motivation, so I took it at night. Ashwagandha is a lot less sedating. I actually find it a little stimulating in a sort of antidepressant effect: warm, happy, positive, thinking clearer, but also a little relaxed enough to enjoy life.

[canz]

Ashwagandha I found a lot more tolerable during the day than Bacopa. Bacopa knocked me out and killed motivation, so I took it at night. Ashwagandha is a lot less sedating. I actually find it a little stimulating in a sort of antidepressant effect: warm, happy, positive, thinking clearer, but also a little relaxed enough to enjoy life.

Could you tell me the brand that you used with the minimal withanolides per capsule? I want to start dosing as low as possible then work my way up.

[canz]

In my view, Bacopa kills your sex drive no matter when you take it (BTW by that I do not mean that you could not, it just that you dont really care, along with a whole bunch of other things that seem less important, which is why I like it so much). It may make you sleepy or it may just relax you, depending on the dose and your response. I would simply try and see what happens if you take it in the afternoon, then you will know.

For the Ashwaghanda, there won't be any other ingredients listed, most likely.

This is why I decided against bacopa. I'd like to decrease anxiety, but not at the expense of my libido. From what I've read Ashwaghanda helps with hormone regulation as well, which is another reason why I chose it over bacopa.

you should take Selegiline/Deprenyl and it is a life extension drug. i am going to switch it when i run out of ritalin. it will negate the Bacopa effect of having a low libido or sex drive. heck ritalin beats out Bacopa and i get a drive to just have sex. which is hard for me since i am trying not to masturbate or have sex for a month. holy sh!t this is tough!

I'm trying to avoid pharmacueticals for now....but I'm not totally against it. I have researched selegiline and have it in the back of my mind as an option in the future.

[gamesguru]

Ashwagandha and bacopa I take generously and in the evenings only. I have not tried lion's mane, and am wondering how often+what dosage everyone is taking? I may try lion's mane.

Gingko and phosphatidylserine i take throughout the day at about 100 mg 3x daily.

I take small amounts of magnesium in throughout the day.

I don't know much about Gotu Kola.

I wouldn't take large amounts of 5-HTP nor tyrosine.

[canz]

Ashwagandha and bacopa I take generously and in the evenings only. I have not tried lion's mane, and am wondering how often+what dosage everyone is taking? I may try lion's mane.

Gingko and phosphatidylserine i take throughout the day at about 100 mg 3x daily.

I take small amounts of magnesium in throughout the day.

I don't know much about Gotu Kola.

I wouldn't take large amounts of 5-HTP nor tyrosine.

It seems that the Lion's Mane typical dose is 500mg, but I've read that many people experience sluggishness and brain fog well into the morning (dosing at night) and some get frequent headahces. I know that this supposedly helps with NGF, but it sounds as though the side effects outweigh the benefits. If I do add it, it will be the last one that I add.

What do you think about taking PS during the day versus at night? In the past I've taken it throughout the day, but in reading many threads around here it seems the majority take it at night.

I don't plan on taking more than 100mg of 5-HTP (maybe less), and will not go over 500mg x3 of tyrosine. It's done well for me so far. Could you give me your reasoning for your statement?

Thanks.

[gamesguru]

It seems that the Lion's Mane typical dose is 500mg, but I've read that many people experience sluggishness and brain fog well into the morning (dosing at night) and some get frequent headahces. I know that this supposedly helps with NGF, but it sounds as though the side effects outweigh the benefits. If I do add it, it will be the last one that I add.

What do you think about taking PS during the day versus at night? In the past I've taken it throughout the day, but in reading many threads around here it seems the majority take it at night.

I don't plan on taking more than 100mg of 5-HTP (maybe less), and will not go over 500mg x3 of tyrosine. It's done well for me so far. Could you give me your reasoning for your statement?

Thanks.

I'm not afraid of the reported adverse affects of NGF saturation. I'll manage them.

I definitely like taking PS at night. I also like it in the morning with some oatmeal. I'd probably agree night is better than morning.

I would not take most monoamine precursors (or irreversible MAOIs) on a regular basis. 5-HTP and tyrosine are associated with some nasty effects which are easily accessed through the wikipedia pages. I've realized that I don't like the way these precursors tend to throw off my circadian rhythms, and that a healthy homeostasis is more easily maintained through good intake of amino acids in various plants and animal products. They help with parkinsons or depression patients, but with healthy people they don't seem too helpful. I haven't seen very much research on this either, though there must be some.

[canz]

It seems that the Lion's Mane typical dose is 500mg, but I've read that many people experience sluggishness and brain fog well into the morning (dosing at night) and some get frequent headahces. I know that this supposedly helps with NGF, but it sounds as though the side effects outweigh the benefits. If I do add it, it will be the last one that I add.

What do you think about taking PS during the day versus at night? In the past I've taken it throughout the day, but in reading many threads around here it seems the majority take it at night.

I don't plan on taking more than 100mg of 5-HTP (maybe less), and will not go over 500mg x3 of tyrosine. It's done well for me so far. Could you give me your reasoning for your statement?

Thanks.

I'm not afraid of the reported adverse affects of NGF saturation. I'll manage them.

I definitely like taking PS at night. I also like it in the morning with some oatmeal. I'd probably agree night is better than morning.

I would not take most monoamine precursors (or irreversible MAOIs) on a regular basis. 5-HTP and tyrosine are associated with some nasty effects which are easily accessed through the wikipedia pages. I've realized that I don't like the way these precursors tend to throw off my circadian rhythms, and that a healthy homeostasis is more easily maintained through good intake of amino acids in various plants and animal products. They help with parkinsons or depression patients, but with healthy people they don't seem too helpful. I haven't seen very much research on this either, though there must be some.

I'll do some research on the tyrosine and 5-HTP. From what I remember the doses that I am taking and plan on taking are acceptable. I'm sure it wouldn't hurt to take some time off. Thanks for your input.

[thedevinroy]

Ashwagandha I found a lot more tolerable during the day than Bacopa. Bacopa knocked me out and killed motivation, so I took it at night. Ashwagandha is a lot less sedating. I actually find it a little stimulating in a sort of antidepressant effect: warm, happy, positive, thinking clearer, but also a little relaxed enough to enjoy life.

Could you tell me the brand that you used with the minimal withanolides per capsule? I want to start dosing as low as possible then work my way up.

Sure. I PM'd you. I actually prefer the lesser extract. It's more of a warm fuzzy than the higher extract when taking comparable doses in active compounds.

[canz]

Ashwagandha I found a lot more tolerable during the day than Bacopa. Bacopa knocked me out and killed motivation, so I took it at night. Ashwagandha is a lot less sedating. I actually find it a little stimulating in a sort of antidepressant effect: warm, happy, positive, thinking clearer, but also a little relaxed enough to enjoy life.

Could you tell me the brand that you used with the minimal withanolides per capsule? I want to start dosing as low as possible then work my way up.

Sure. I PM'd you. I actually prefer the lesser extract. It's more of a warm fuzzy than the higher extract when taking comparable doses in active compounds.

Got it. Thanks. I'm thinking along the same lines.

[canz]

Just thought I would update on the above supplementation, along with some questions. I've been taking Ginko, Gotu Kola, and Ashwaghanda for the past four weeks:

Ginko Biloba: NOW Foods (60mg). I am going to up my dose. I started taking 60mg twice daily and have not experienced negative side effects (irritability, anxiety etc.). Tomorrow I'm going to up to 120mg in the morning, and depending on how I feel 60-120mg in the mid afternoon.

Ashwaghanda: Himalayan brand (225mg). I initially took this during the day, but it made me feel extremely spacey, dizzy and made my body feel heavy. I've been taking it at night for the past two weeks with some success. I'm not dull or tired when I wake up in the morning, and I've not really had any anxiety issues. One thing that I have noticed is the increase in my assertiveness, libido and the size of my testicles (which to me directly correlates to increase in testosterone). However, I've upped my dose of tribulus terrestris from 2g to 4g in the past couple of weeks so I'm not sure which is responsible (possibly both). I may up the dose to 450mg per night even though the suggested dose is one capsule per dose.

Gotu Kola: NOW Foods brand (450mg). I started taking this at 450mg in the morning. I found that it sedates me some and causes me to feel strange so I may try to dose it at night. Do any of you have this issue and did you find dosing at night was best?

Phosphatidylserine: Haven't taken it yet.

5-HTP: decided against it because of potential side effects over time

Tyrosine: I used to take this at 500mg x3 and have decided to stop taking this as well because of potential side effects in the long term. I do however have a preworkout supplement that I take 3 x weekly because it contains no stimulants by Beverly Nutrition called UP-LIFT that contains some tyrosine amongst other non essential amino acids.

So far I haven't felt any monumental effects from any of the above; however, slow subtle improvements is what I'm seeking so that isn't a problem. I started taking each by itself for a couple of days at least so that I could manage side effects if they presented themselves then added each one after that. Any additional feedback would be appreciated.

Edited by canz, 23 December 2011 - 04:45 PM.

[thedevinroy]

I've taken 240mg of Ginkgo with no side effects.

Ashwagandha, same brand, I found it quite stabilizing. It made me feel warm and happy and intelligent. I also took 3x that. I do have ADHD, so this may be the reverse-effect phenomenon. It was not that stimulating, but it was rejuvenating. I've taken it mid-day with these effects. When taken before bed, I had no trouble getting to sleep. One thing that prevented the combo from being too sedating (Gotu Kola, Ginkgo, Ashwagandha) was zinc. 12.5mg of zinc gave me my energy back and completed the combo for me. Give it a shot, if you can.

I take Gotu Kola before bed every night. 900mg whole herb. When it kicks in, your head sort of slows down and gets heavy. Takes 10 to 20 minutes. During the day, it prevents the urge to get up and do something else when I'm working.