23 replies to this topic

[howtodisappear]

Hi,

I have recently started exercising (heavily) again at age 30 (Only been 8 years). I have a desire to see how far I can push my body both mentally and physically but I want to live a long and healthy life as well, so I want to support this process through supplementation where possible. At this early stage the big concern for me are my joints.

As an adjunct to this, my Father is in his 60's and his body is falling apart, I am hoping as I get educated to this, I will be able to advise him on what would be beneficial, he has a bad back and trouble exercising.

I am new to this so I might be making mistakes as to how it should be approached. Any advice would be appreciated

At the moment I this is what I am taking daily:

Vit C = 2200mg
MSM, Glucosamine, Chondroitin = 750mg, 750,mg, 600mg
Gelatin = 3g
Glycine = 2000mg
Lysine Hydrochloride = 900mg
Silicon Dioxide =196mg
Fish Oil = 1080mg (EPA), 720mg(DHA)

I was looking at taking Bromelain, Resveratrol and a Mulit-Vitamin (Vimmortal) as well and in the near future I will definitely be adding Creatine and some form of protein.

I am sourcing most of these products from iherb, if anyone can recommend brands that would be great , otherwise I will try and go for the best value.

I have read good things on this forum regarding Uridine, as I suffer from concentration issues and one poster commented on the benefits for muscle gain.

If I am way off the mark here, please let me know, as i said I am very new and there is so much i don't know, i thought this would be the best place to start.

Cheers
HTDC

[Lufega]

At this early stage the big concern for me are my joints.

When you think of joints you're really talking about type II collagen. Increasing this might alleviate or prevent any problems. Triphala does this rather well as well as increasing hyaluronic acid by preventing its breakdown. I've always had a problem with cracking joints. In fact, my joints are like musical instruments. Over the years, I've tried many of the conventional joint supplements with no relief. I spend last weekend reading about T. chebula and triphala and have some on its way. I imagine it'll take a few months of supplementation to see any effect so we'll see. I like the fact that it inhibits hyaluronidase, collagenase and specifically increases type 2 collagen. It also induces tgf beta that itself promotes elastogenesis. Finally, it's a potent inducer of nrf2.

The studies refers to some of the active compoments of Terminalia Chebula, one of the ingrediets in triphala.

Suppression of the onset and progression of collagen-induced arthritis by chebulagic acid screened from a natural product library.


OBJECTIVE:

Chebulagic acid (CHE) from the immature seeds of Terminalia chebula was identified from a natural product library as a potent suppressor of T cell activity. This study examined the effectiveness of CHE against the onset and progression of collagen-induced arthritis (CIA) in mice.
METHODS:

Arthritis was induced in DBA/1J mice by subcutaneous immunization with bovine type II collagen on days 0 and 21. CHE was administered intraperitoneally for 3 weeks, either as prophylaxis (10 or 20 mg/kg) before disease onset or as therapy (20 mg/kg) after disease onset. Clinical scores, serum antibody levels, and cytokines were measured, and flow cytometric analysis and real-time reverse transcription-polymerase chain reaction were performed to evaluate the knee joints of mice with CIA.
RESULTS:

In both the prophylactic and therapeutic CHE dosing models, all clinical scores, serum levels of total and anticollagen IgG, and levels of interleukin-10 (IL-10) and IL-6 were reduced, while serum levels of transforming growth factor beta (TGFbeta) were markedly elevated. The number of granulocytes was reduced, but the proportion of CD4+,CD25+ T cells was greater in the knee joints of CHE-treated CIA mice. Expression of Foxp3 and TGFbeta messenger RNA was also augmented significantly in the knee joints of CHE-treated CIA mice in the therapeutic dosing model.
CONCLUSION:

CHE significantly suppressed the onset and progression of CIA in mice. Immune suppression via the induction of TGFbeta and CD4+,CD25+ T cells may represent a new strategy in the development of therapies for managing rheumatoid arthritis and other inflammatory diseases.

Effect of 1,2,3,4,6-penta-O-galloyl-beta-D-glucose on elastase and hyaluronidase activities and its type II collagen expression.


Abstract

In the current era, natural products are gaining prime attention in the fields of cosmeceuticals and pharmaceuticals due to higher safety margins and biological functions, as they have a considerable amount of potential in treating different ailments. Thus, to find effective elastase and hyaluronidase inhibitors from natural resources, fifty Korean plants were screened, and the fruit of Terminalia chebula RETZIUS (Combretaceae) was selected for further structural isolation due to its potent efficacy. The methanol crude extract of the fruits showed 80% elastase and 87% hyaluronidase enzyme inhibition activities at 1 mg/mL. The crude extract, upon bioassay-directed fractionation, led to the isolation of compound 1, whose structure was found by spectral analysis to be 1,2,3,4,6-penta-O-galloyl-beta-D-glucose (PGG). PGG displayed significant elastase and hyaluronidase inhibitory activities with IC50, values of 57 microg/mL and 0.86 mg/mL, respectively; also, treatment of PGG on rabbit articular chondrocytes significantly induced the type II collagen expression. Based on elastase and hyaluronidase inhibitions, and type II collagen expression, it could be suggested that PGG might have an influence on skin conditions when used cosmetically as an active anti-aging ingredient with no cytotoxicity; also, it might be beneficial in relieving painful joint conditions, and thus have relevance for treating arthritis. Therefore, it can be concluded that PGG may prove to be an active ingredient in cosmeceutical and pharmaceutical formulations, and that it definitely merits further in vivo investigations.

[niner]

I have recently started exercising (heavily) again at age 30 (Only been 8 years). I have a desire to see how far I can push my body both mentally and physically but I want to live a long and healthy life as well, so I want to support this process through supplementation where possible. At this early stage the big concern for me are my joints.

As an adjunct to this, my Father is in his 60's and his body is falling apart, I am hoping as I get educated to this, I will be able to advise him on what would be beneficial, he has a bad back and trouble exercising.

At the moment I this is what I am taking daily:

Vit C = 2200mg
MSM, Glucosamine, Chondroitin = 750mg, 750,mg, 600mg
Gelatin = 3g
Glycine = 2000mg
Lysine Hydrochloride = 900mg
Silicon Dioxide =196mg
Fish Oil = 1080mg (EPA), 720mg(DHA)

I was looking at taking Bromelain, Resveratrol and a Mulit-Vitamin (Vimmortal) as well and in the near future I will definitely be adding Creatine and some form of protein.

Hi howtodisappear, sorry to hear about your dad; maybe we could help get him fixed up too. One thing that jumps out at me from your present stack is the silicon dioxide. That's basically sand, and isn't bioavailable if you're looking for silicon. Silicon is actually a great thing to use for building collagen structure and bone. I'd use either BioSil or JarrowSil. The bioavailability of most other forms is poor. For just about everyone, I recommend vitamin D in an oil-based formulation, about 1000 IU/day, vitamin K2 (I use a mixture of MK4 and MK7), and Magnesium. The most important thing for both you and your dad is diet. Avoid sugar, omega 6 fatty acids (generally speaking, this means avoiding polyunsaturates), and cut back on wheat. Eat lots of vegetables. Kurt Harris' Archevore blog has some very good diet advice.

[howtodisappear]

At this early stage the big concern for me are my joints.

When you think of joints you're really talking about type II collagen. Increasing this might alleviate or prevent any problems. Triphala does this rather well as well as increasing hyaluronic acid by preventing its breakdown. I've always had a problem with cracking joints. In fact, my joints are like musical instruments. Over the years, I've tried many of the conventional joint supplements with no relief. I spend last weekend reading about T. chebula and triphala and have some on its way. I imagine it'll take a few months of supplementation to see any effect so we'll see. I like the fact that it inhibits hyaluronidase, collagenase and specifically increases type 2 collagen. It also induces tgf beta that itself promotes elastogenesis. Finally, it's a potent inducer of nrf2.

The studies refers to some of the active compoments of Terminalia Chebula, one of the ingrediets in triphala.

I will have to look into that then as well. Are you taking any other supplements at the moment or will you just be trying Triphala?

I would be interested to see how it goes for you, if you don't mind getting back to me later.

Thank you

[howtodisappear]

Hi howtodisappear, sorry to hear about your dad; maybe we could help get him fixed up too. One thing that jumps out at me from your present stack is the silicon dioxide. That's basically sand, and isn't bioavailable if you're looking for silicon. Silicon is actually a great thing to use for building collagen structure and bone. I'd use either BioSil or JarrowSil. The bioavailability of most other forms is poor. For just about everyone, I recommend vitamin D in an oil-based formulation, about 1000 IU/day, vitamin K2 (I use a mixture of MK4 and MK7), and Magnesium. The most important thing for both you and your dad is diet. Avoid sugar, omega 6 fatty acids (generally speaking, this means avoiding polyunsaturates), and cut back on wheat. Eat lots of vegetables. Kurt Harris' Archevore blog has some very good diet advice.

Sorry i cant seem to get multi-quote working.

Thanks for the heads up with the Silicon. I feel like I have got my toe in a whole sea of knowledge and it's quite daunting even getting started down the right path. It is a bit of a shame about my Dad but better late than never to get started on doing something about it.

I read a long time ago and I haven't till now questioned it, that i need to take Calcium with Magnesium, is that still correct?

I have had the Archevore diet recommended before. I will take a closer look, I eat a lot though, after 3 hours I am hungry again and can't think straight until i get some food into me, I eat a lot of carbohydrates and meat when i can afford it, and it gets worse with increased physical activity. I saw a picture of Kurt Harris and he has a very different body type to me but as I said I will look into it more.


Cheers

[Lufega]

I'm always using multiple things. It's become somewhat of a lifestyle. I'm also using celadrin a the moment. I plant to finish the current supply I have and wont buy it again. I always feel kinda funny after taking the softgels. I haven't noticed any improvement in joint musicality yet.

[ViolettVol]

At this early stage the big concern for me are my joints.

When you think of joints you're really talking about type II collagen. Increasing this might alleviate or prevent any problems. Triphala does this rather well as well as increasing hyaluronic acid by preventing its breakdown. I've always had a problem with cracking joints. In fact, my joints are like musical instruments. Over the years, I've tried many of the conventional joint supplements with no relief. I spend last weekend reading about T. chebula and triphala and have some on its way. I imagine it'll take a few months of supplementation to see any effect so we'll see. I like the fact that it inhibits hyaluronidase, collagenase and specifically increases type 2 collagen. It also induces tgf beta that itself promotes elastogenesis. Finally, it's a potent inducer of nrf2.

The studies refers to some of the active compoments of Terminalia Chebula, one of the ingrediets in triphala.

Suppression of the onset and progression of collagen-induced arthritis by chebulagic acid screened from a natural product library.


OBJECTIVE:

Chebulagic acid (CHE) from the immature seeds of Terminalia chebula was identified from a natural product library as a potent suppressor of T cell activity. This study examined the effectiveness of CHE against the onset and progression of collagen-induced arthritis (CIA) in mice.
METHODS:

Arthritis was induced in DBA/1J mice by subcutaneous immunization with bovine type II collagen on days 0 and 21. CHE was administered intraperitoneally for 3 weeks, either as prophylaxis (10 or 20 mg/kg) before disease onset or as therapy (20 mg/kg) after disease onset. Clinical scores, serum antibody levels, and cytokines were measured, and flow cytometric analysis and real-time reverse transcription-polymerase chain reaction were performed to evaluate the knee joints of mice with CIA.
RESULTS:

In both the prophylactic and therapeutic CHE dosing models, all clinical scores, serum levels of total and anticollagen IgG, and levels of interleukin-10 (IL-10) and IL-6 were reduced, while serum levels of transforming growth factor beta (TGFbeta) were markedly elevated. The number of granulocytes was reduced, but the proportion of CD4+,CD25+ T cells was greater in the knee joints of CHE-treated CIA mice. Expression of Foxp3 and TGFbeta messenger RNA was also augmented significantly in the knee joints of CHE-treated CIA mice in the therapeutic dosing model.
CONCLUSION:

CHE significantly suppressed the onset and progression of CIA in mice. Immune suppression via the induction of TGFbeta and CD4+,CD25+ T cells may represent a new strategy in the development of therapies for managing rheumatoid arthritis and other inflammatory diseases.

Effect of 1,2,3,4,6-penta-O-galloyl-beta-D-glucose on elastase and hyaluronidase activities and its type II collagen expression.


Abstract

In the current era, natural products are gaining prime attention in the fields of cosmeceuticals and pharmaceuticals due to higher safety margins and biological functions, as they have a considerable amount of potential in treating different ailments. Thus, to find effective elastase and hyaluronidase inhibitors from natural resources, fifty Korean plants were screened, and the fruit of Terminalia chebula RETZIUS (Combretaceae) was selected for further structural isolation due to its potent efficacy. The methanol crude extract of the fruits showed 80% elastase and 87% hyaluronidase enzyme inhibition activities at 1 mg/mL. The crude extract, upon bioassay-directed fractionation, led to the isolation of compound 1, whose structure was found by spectral analysis to be 1,2,3,4,6-penta-O-galloyl-beta-D-glucose (PGG). PGG displayed significant elastase and hyaluronidase inhibitory activities with IC50, values of 57 microg/mL and 0.86 mg/mL, respectively; also, treatment of PGG on rabbit articular chondrocytes significantly induced the type II collagen expression. Based on elastase and hyaluronidase inhibitions, and type II collagen expression, it could be suggested that PGG might have an influence on skin conditions when used cosmetically as an active anti-aging ingredient with no cytotoxicity; also, it might be beneficial in relieving painful joint conditions, and thus have relevance for treating arthritis. Therefore, it can be concluded that PGG may prove to be an active ingredient in cosmeceutical and pharmaceutical formulations, and that it definitely merits further in vivo investigations.

This sounds promising. Please let us know how it works for you once you've tried it for a while. I also have problems with creaking joints after longer periods of working out. Also, am I interpreting the study correctly that this supplement may also help rejuvenate skin?

[howtodisappear]

What is happening here? i have quoted and replied to Niner's post at least 4 times over the last week and have had to rewrite the post each time as cut and paste does not work.

This is frustrating as how can i continue the discussion if it wont let me post? Not to mention it appears rude to the people taking time to reply to my original message.

[JChief]

You might look into a popular Traditional Chinese Medicinal supplement called Deer Antler Velvet. I trust this source and has the CoA available on the page which I like. Here's a summary. Supposedly good for bone, blood and joints.

I am also researching collagen. Dr. Bernd Friedlander developed a formula that is proclaimed to be the "best on the market" and supposedly helps decrease healing time for both soft tissue and bone. Enzymatically cold processed 4-8 times from grass-fed beef hide. I am trying to dig up more research on this.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/11071580

Edited by JChief, 09 December 2011 - 11:10 AM.

[ramon25]

If you want body repair , do it through exercise that supports health and performance. It makes no sense to supplement so that you can thrash yourself. been there and done that, not sustainable for the average person. Look into circular strength training by scott sonnon. The most evolved prolific system of healthy movement and performance.

Good Luck

[syr_]

I'm always using multiple things. It's become somewhat of a lifestyle. I'm also using celadrin a the moment. I plant to finish the current supply I have and wont buy it again. I always feel kinda funny after taking the softgels. I haven't noticed any improvement in joint musicality yet.

Yeah, I have tried Celadrin without effect. Of the many supplement tried in a few years only 5-loxin at pretty high dose has worked a little (been about 1 month and half on it). AKBA has good science backing it. Starting today I'm adding AC-11 (a promising cat's claw extract) and after a week or two i'll evaluate, hoping for good cause I want it to be a staple.

I'm really interested on your Triphala tryout, please keep us updated.

[Lufega]

I'm always using multiple things. It's become somewhat of a lifestyle. I'm also using celadrin a the moment. I plant to finish the current supply I have and wont buy it again. I always feel kinda funny after taking the softgels. I haven't noticed any improvement in joint musicality yet.

Yeah, I have tried Celadrin without effect. Of the many supplement tried in a few years only 5-loxin at pretty high dose has worked a little (been about 1 month and half on it). AKBA has good science backing it. Starting today I'm adding AC-11 (a promising cat's claw extract) and after a week or two i'll evaluate, hoping for good cause I want it to be a staple.

I'm really interested on your Triphala tryout, please keep us updated.

At this point, my joints still pop/crack but I have to admit, they feel a little more lubricated and less dry and raw. Not sure if it's the triphala, celedrin or the combination of both. I also added two old bottles of NAG and hyaluronic acid just to finish up what was left.

[syr_]

Do you plan to go on Triphala alone in the future (I hope so)? IMO the lubrication comes from HA.

[Bluenoise]

At this point, my joints still pop/crack but I have to admit, they feel a little more lubricated and less dry and raw. Not sure if it's the triphala, celedrin or the combination of both. I also added two old bottles of NAG and hyaluronic acid just to finish up what was left.

Do you have pain associated with this noise?

[Lufega]

Do you plan to go on Triphala alone in the future (I hope so)? IMO the lubrication comes from HA.

I'll probably keep it long term. It's fixed a few digestive problems I had like gas and bloated and it does have a noticeable cholinergic effect.

At this point, my joints still pop/crack but I have to admit, they feel a little more lubricated and less dry and raw. Not sure if it's the triphala, celedrin or the combination of both. I also added two old bottles of NAG and hyaluronic acid just to finish up what was left.

Do you have pain associated with this noise?

Yep.

[Bluenoise]

Yep.

Cool. I'm really interested in hearing about your results then. Has it helped with that aspect at all?

I was just asking because noise in joints (crepitus) with and without pain are two very different things.

[howtodisappear]

I am going to be doing an order for my parents this weekend.


So should i scrap the initial regimen?

And just go for something like for my parents In their 60's:


Triphala (Just for my Dad)
Silicon
MSM,Glu, Chon( Just for my Dad)
Collagen
Vitamin D
Vit C
Resveratrol
Fish Oil


Vimmortal + Zinc


Does anyone have any thoughts on Bromelain?

[Lufega]

Bromelain does a lot of cool things but it's also a proteolytic enzyme that gets absorb systemically so I always fear it might do some harm along with the good.

You had gelatin and glycine in the initial stack. Those are two things that are cheap and you can be liberal with how much you use. It has antiinflammatory activity and generally, most of our diets don't have enough of this.

Less is more. That applies to supplements and your training. Don't start the gym and kill yourself. Look into Leangains.com. I like their minimalist approach and it's working well for me. (I'm also in my 30's). I only recently started getting elbow pain because I forgot the "less is more" approach and started doing way too much stuff. Lesson learned.

For people that are not familiar or enthusiastic about supplements, it's better to start them off on 1 or 2 things, see how they react (and if they're compliant) and slowly add additional stuff. I'm trying to do the same with my dad and it's nearly impossible. Any attempt to change the way he eats is a waste of time. So, with this in mind and considering his age, I would want to start with his general immune and cardiovascular system.

Niner made some good suggestions above and those should be the basis for any new regime: Vitamin D, vitamin K, magnesium, fish oil. This should have the most dramatic effect of health and general well-being. You can also try to be tricky and use some formulas instead of single nutrients. For example, use a vitamin C that has quercetin and bioflavonoids together. Also, don't start off using megadoses of anything. Start small and work your way up. Triphala is good, specially if they have digestive issues. I also like it since it has other systemic healing effects. This is directly from my notes, so I wont post studies at this time.

>Triphala or Terminalia chebula
- antiinflam, increases collagen type 2, Potent hyaluronidase and collagenase inhibitor and increases TGF beta, reduces shortening of telomeres, neuro protective, activates nrf2 (PGG fraction), increases CLA in muscles, inhibits smad 2, 3 and 4 which decrease myostatin activity. Reduces herpes, especially in the brain. Aids peristalsis due to cholinergic effect

Edited by Lufega, 13 January 2012 - 08:43 PM.

[howtodisappear]

Thanks Lufega.

[Logan]

Gotu Kola
Astragalus
Exercise-work up to interval sprints 2 days a week.
Weight training
Yoga/Stretching

[hooter]

Always include BCAA's for muscle health! Will never get tired of saying this.

[Lufega]

Always include BCAA's for muscle health! Will never get tired of saying this.

I second that! Take a look at this little gem:

Branched-chain amino acids, mitochondrial biogenesis, and healthspan: an evolutionary perspective.

[howtodisappear]

Always include BCAA's for muscle health! Will never get tired of saying this.

I am not really familiar with BCAA's

Could you explain a bit more?

I was reading in this thread that over time they can cause depression.

BCAA - LONGECITY

[hooter]

Always include BCAA's for muscle health! Will never get tired of saying this.

I am not really familiar with BCAA's

Could you explain a bit more?

I was reading in this thread that over time they can cause depression.

BCAA - LONGECITY

I've been told co-supplementing with inositol helps with that.