28 replies to this topic

[summer stars]

Actually I'm not sure "tired" is the correct word. I feel what I think would be best described as overwhelming mental exhaustion. My limbs and muscles generally feel fine, but my brain will start to feel like it's made of wet cotton. At the same time, I'm not sure if "mental" is the right word for it either...I can fall asleep VERY easily, as if I had just run a marathon. I had my thyroid and iron levels checked two years ago and they were decent, so I guess it's not that, but I don't have any money to get anything else tested.

I've tried a few different things...for instance, I added magnesium and vitamin d3 (I get a lot of calcium so I didn't add that) in the springtime and have been taking it ever since. No change. I've been taking Now Foods Raw Maca for two months now, no change. I added Now Foods Rhodiola a month ago...no change. The only thing that ever helps me feel more energetic is, unfortunately, caffeine.

I was thinking of trying Cordyceps...has anyone had success with that?

I also feel like the Now Foods supplements might be crap, and maybe I'd have success with something else. However I don't have a lot of money so it'll have to be something just as cheap. Are Swanson brand supplements generally known to be okay?

[spider]

Hey Star,

A few questions you need to explore:
How long do you have this problem? Maybe you have CFS? Do you have a negative stressful life? Is it possible that an underlying psychological disorder is the cause?


A few things which may alleviate your symptom:
Read the whole uridine thread in the nootropic subforum.
Read about polyphasic sleep principle.
Ask your GP for Ritalin or Modafinil. Both are stimulants. Ritalin is less expensive than Modafinil. These are powerfull substances that can be very effective.

The supps you mentioned are more subtle and usually take a long time to notice a profound effect (if at all). However, there are also a few positives to these subtle supps. Yes, the quality of RHodiola Rosea can very significantly between brands. I have read on this forum that a lot of people have succes with the New Chapter brand.

[Dorian Grey]

The liver is the "foundation of health" (Chinese medicine), and fatigue issues often revolve around blood sugar regulation, amino acids, free fatty acids and triglycerides, all of which the liver is in charge of.

Supplements can help, but it's difficult to know which ones to take. The mag is a good idea, but take it at night, as mag can actually act as a "chill pill" and relax you. Low dose "balanced B-50" B-complex will give your liver a few of its favorite things too.

If you are no longer young, additional B-12 might be helpful. B-12 is often poorly absorbed from food or supplements as you age as stomach acid declines and this is required for B-12 absorption. I add a sublingual B-12 "dot" or lozenge to my day as B-12 can be absorbed sublingulally, and this can bump up your levels if you're not absorbing B-12 in your gut from the B-complex.

I would focus on a liver healthy diet to see if this helps... A good breakfast, and less sugar throughout the day, with a focus on no/low fructose, more/enough lecithin and choline from eggs if you don't normally eat these, and quality proteins from fish and chicken with less red meat. If you don't like eggs, a lecithin supplement will give your liver the choline it loves too.

Google around on choline deficiency and see if the symptoms look familiar. Avoid choline supplements (bitartrate or citrate) and get your choline from eggs or lecithin.

A happy liver is the key to stable blood sugar and energy.

Best of luck to you!

[hippocampus]

+milk thistle if it's liver problem

you should be taking fish oil in any case (except if you have perfect diet which you probably don't)
try paleo diet or at least avoid gluten (so you'll avoid most junk food too)
zinc gives me some energy but I doubt this is your primary problem (most people have light zinc deficiency or bad zinc: copper ratio)
if you don't have money for every vitamin/mineral on its own, try a multi - but you won't know which mineral is the problem (if it is).

green tea has adaptogenic properties, but I think it'll only help you a little.

use cron-o-meter for a month and see what you should change/supplement.

maybe is some sort of infection (candida?) or something with the gut - try probiotics (but first try gluten-free diet since it'll change your gut flora a bit).

Edited by hippocampus, 04 December 2011 - 09:12 PM.

[summer stars]

Thanks for the responses

I'm young - I'm 25. I've been having this problem for years now, though, since I was around 20. I've thought about the possibility of CFS before, but as there is no cure for it anyway...I would still want to try other things. I had one doctor prescribe me thyroid medication because even though my TSH was good, my T4 was very near to being in the hypothyroid range...but unfortunately that didn't help either. I don't have insurance anymore so another visit to the doctor is out of the question. If I could be sure of figuring it out, I would, but spending another $300 on blood tests that show nothing is just not within my budget.

I take fish oil and a multivitamin every day, for years now. I have tried and given up other supplements, but those two always stay the same and I try not to skimp on them moneywise if I can manage. I take Carlson's fish oil and Rainbow Light's one a day multivitamin for women.

I started taking probiotics a couple weeks ago, actually, and hopefully they will work. The first week I had a horrible reaction (tremendous stomachache, passed a lot of mucous, if that's not TMI), but I heard that could happen with bad bacteria being killed off by good bacteria, and so I just persevered and it went away. I'm hopeful that it will help in the long run. I chose Sedona's Iflora for that, the one with 30 billion bacteria.

How would I figure out if I'm having a liver problem?

[Want_more_hair]

Is Maca really that helpful? I have seen contradictory reports and don't have a cheap source so still undecided.

[summer stars]

Maca is supposed to be adaptogenic and balancing to the endocrine system. Some people have reported energy boosts from it. But any supplement's outcome is individual to the person who takes it. I don't think it's helped me at all but others love it.

[MrHappy]

Have you read the gpc, uridine, dha thread in nootropics? I think that will help you a lot. I find it stunning for mediating sleep debt.

[zm3thod]

Try ALCAR. Most people talk about its nootropic effects, but I find it helps me significantly for energy. Not like 200mg of caffeine - much more subtle but consistent. Magnesium Malate seems to help me too, far less obvious, I think maybe from better sleep quality

Edited by zm3thod, 05 December 2011 - 12:02 AM.

[hippocampus]

How would I figure out if I'm having a liver problem?

blood test (liver enzymes etc.)
jaundice (yellow skin, eyes).

[1kgcoffee]

I'd recommend three things together.

1. SAMe - s-adenosylmethionine
http://www.iherb.com...lets/34892?at=0
You have to start with a loading dose of 1200-1600 mg a day for a few days until you really start to feel it. You can then taper down to 200-600mg a day

2. sublingual vitamin B12, 5000mcg
http://www.iherb.com...zenges/117?at=0

3. folic acid
http://www.iherb.com...lets/13961?at=0
You need a minimum 350mcg every day. If you're like pretty much everyone, you're not getting that from your diet.

If you'd like to know how this works - if it does - read up on the SAMe/homocysteine cycle.

[summer stars]

Try ALCAR. Most people talk about its nootropic effects, but I find it helps me significantly for energy. Not like 200mg of caffeine - much more subtle but consistent. Magnesium Malate seems to help me too, far less obvious, I think maybe from better sleep quality

sorry, forgot to mention I tried ALCAR before. no effect. I've been taking magnesium citrate, but I'll probably try malate next time. and the magnesium I'm taking is Now Foods, and I'm starting to feel skeptical of their quality.

Have you read the gpc, uridine, dha thread in nootropics? I think that will help you a lot. I find it stunning for mediating sleep debt.

Interesting. Just read all 10 pages of the thread, and I'm intrigued. I already take 600 mg of DHA daily (my fish oil is not high DHA)...would 75mg of the TAU and 500mg of citicholine daily be feasible? I could only try this if it wasn't a huge initial investment, and the TAU/citicholine is cheaper than the uridine/GPC.

I'd recommend three things together.

1. SAMe - s-adenosylmethionine
http://www.iherb.com...lets/34892?at=0
You have to start with a loading dose of 1200-1600 mg a day for a few days until you really start to feel it. You can then taper down to 200-600mg a day

2. sublingual vitamin B12, 5000mcg
http://www.iherb.com...zenges/117?at=0

3. folic acid
http://www.iherb.com...lets/13961?at=0
You need a minimum 350mcg every day. If you're like pretty much everyone, you're not getting that from your diet.

If you'd like to know how this works - if it does - read up on the SAMe/homocysteine cycle.

Thank you, I will look into the SAMe I get 800mcg of folic acid daily, but my multivitamin only has 25mcg of the B12 and not sublingual.

Hm, I noticed SAMe is meant to be taken on an empty stomach, which brings me to something I've been wondering for awhile...how empty is empty? If I take a bunch of pills on an empty stomach but don't eat any food, am I hindering absorption compared to taking just one?

[niner]

Actually I'm not sure "tired" is the correct word. I feel what I think would be best described as overwhelming mental exhaustion. My limbs and muscles generally feel fine, but my brain will start to feel like it's made of wet cotton. At the same time, I'm not sure if "mental" is the right word for it either...I can fall asleep VERY easily, as if I had just run a marathon. I had my thyroid and iron levels checked two years ago and they were decent, so I guess it's not that, but I don't have any money to get anything else tested. [...]

Two things come to mind from this description: depression and allergies. Either could produce these symptoms, and both are common, so one or both is the most probable cause, though neither is assured. Do either seem feasible to you?

I started taking probiotics a couple weeks ago, actually, and hopefully they will work. The first week I had a horrible reaction (tremendous stomachache, passed a lot of mucous, if that's not TMI), but I heard that could happen with bad bacteria being killed off by good bacteria, and so I just persevered and it went away. I'm hopeful that it will help in the long run. I chose Sedona's Iflora for that, the one with 30 billion bacteria.

How would I figure out if I'm having a liver problem?

You might have been reacting to the short chain fructo-oligosaccharides that Sedona Iflora contains. These can cause gas and other distress, particularly if you had some bad bugs in your gut. I don't think bad bacteria getting killed off has anything to do with it, though they may have been displaced by better bacteria over time. That's the point of probiotics, after all. Even if it doesn't help the immediate problem, you're a lot better off with healthy flora.

I really don't think that you have a liver problem. There are blood tests, as mentioned upthread, but I don't see an indication for them.

[summer stars]

Allergies, maybe, but the only other allergy symptoms I'd have would be dry, red eyes when I wake up in the morning (fixed with eyedrops, then they're fine until the next morning.) Depression, no...well, it's upsetting that my body isn't functioning the way it needs to for me to get through the day, and I get stressed out when I can't keep my eyes open when I'm supposed to be studying, but other than that, I'm pretty happy and things are going well in my life.

Also, I've had no problems at all from the probiotic since the initial reaction. I know that the FOS can be a problem for some, but it hasn't been for me. Actually, I've had less of a problem with gas since I've started. Acid reflux has been a major problem for me for a long time, and I'm not sure if the probiotics are helping with that much (I guess not much can fix a faulty esophageal opening) but they have almost eliminated the gas that would happen at the same time.

[hamishm00]

D-Ribose i find to be incredibly helpful against the black dog of fatigue.

[MrHappy]

Oh.. If it's not allergies, etc and you're getting enough sleep, etc.. IRON.

No coffee. Take iron, vitamin c, e, d3 & b

TAU - I'd think 25mg sublingualyl would do nicely + cofactors.

I'm a big believer in fixing problems not masking them, so maybe get a blood test first and see if there are bigger issues, rather than lifestyle.

[Dorian Grey]

In regard to the liver issue... Jaundice is a sign of serious liver disease or total failure and I didn't mean to imply I thought this might be what is going on.

High liver enzymes are a sign of recent or current damage occurring, and I doubt this is the problem either.

Choline deficiency on the other hand can occur quite easily, and lack of adequate phospholipids can slow bile flow and cause a sluggish liver.

Neither of these will show up on liver function tests or result in substantial symptoms of liver disease unless the deficiency is severe, but they can throw sand in the daily functioning of the liver regarding glucose, amino acid and fat regulation, which can take the sparkle out of your eyes.

Throwing a couple of eggs into the diet a few times a week to see if some choline/lecithin would help seems like a cheap and easy thing to try!

More on choline here: http://www.whfoods.c...utrient&dbid=50

"Mild deficiency of choline has also been linked to fatigue, insomnia, poor ability of the kidneys to concentrate urine, problems with memory, and nerve-muscle imbalances. Choline deficiency can also cause deficiency of another B vitamin critically important for health, Folic Acid "

Edited by synesthesia, 05 December 2011 - 05:01 PM.

[summer stars]

I eat eggs almost every day, but usually toss the yolks out because I'm not a huge fan of them. I'll make, say, 3 eggs but only eat one of the yolks. Maybe I need to start packing them down, though.

I ended up buying Jarrow's 200mg SAMe. I think I will start slow rather than with a loading dose because I've read some people have strong reactions to it. If it does nothing, then I'll try upping the dose. Will update after a little while if anyone is curious about how it works for me

[Dorian Grey]

Hummm... I would think even 1 egg yoke a day would provide all the choline/lecithin you should need. No need to get carried away, but you could try leaving the yokes in for a month or so and see if it helps.

I've had great experiences with low dose SAM-e. I only take one 200mg on an empty stomach in the morning and I believe I'm feeling much better since starting it. It is important to take it on an empty stomach though. Something most suppliers don't tell you on the box, and some say SAM-e in the evening can cause trouble sleeping, so morning is best.

Good Luck!

[summer stars]

SAM-e seems to be working quite well at the moment actually...I'm pleasantly pleased. I don't think it's a placebo effect because I normally don't experience those (I buy stuff for energy and they just plain don't work unless they're stimulants.) I've only been using it for a week, though, so maybe it is placebo. For the first 3 days I took 200mg in the morning and got a small, short energy boost (interestingly enough though, it doesn't happen right away...takes over an hour to kick in.) Then for the next 3 days I took 200mg in the morning and another 200mg after 3 hours, which was better. Today I took 400mg in the morning and feel great. I suspect that I might end up needing 400mg in the morning and either 100 or 200mg later in the day for all day energy...unless I end up building up too much SAM-e and getting the jitters, which I guess happens to some people.

I am taking a sublingual b-complex too. (well, I keep it under the tongue for 60 seconds then swallow it.)

I'm still curious about uridine + choline + DHA and I will probably get around to trying that eventually but for now I'm going to keep it up with the SAM-e and hope it continues to work well for me. It's too bad this stuff is so expensive!

Edited by summer stars, 21 December 2011 - 05:51 PM.

[syncleft]

SAM-E definitely works. I hope it works for you continually - for me the effects start to diminish after a 1.5 - 2 months or so, but I take a small break and re-start again and it seems to work just fine.

Do you sleep well? I've constantly battled being tired my entire life, and only started doing something about it in the past couple years (I'm 24). I was / am diagnosed with ADHD and was taking amphetamines for a bit over a year - and as much as I love the drug - I don't think it's good for me (I don't mean health wise, there's that too, but mainly I mean mentally). I started taking Lithium Orotate before going to bed, 5mg (Doctor's Best Lithium Orotate - 1 tablet = 5mg) and I didn't notice much until about 1-2 weeks. I've been waking up refreshed and have energy... it's great, and I'm pretty sure the Lithium has something to do with it.

I also started taking methylene blue in the day time - still playing with dosages, but this definitely seems to help during the day as well. Before I could fall asleep at any time of the day if you gave me a bed - and I lived like this for years (until I was prescribed amphetamine, which I no longer take). The past few days are the first in my life where I've waken up with what feels like a normal amount of energy. No SAM-e either, but I'm going to add that soon (I used to need 800mg minimum to do anything, I'm only going to take 400 mg now though).

Edited by syncleft, 24 December 2011 - 07:36 PM.

[Thorsten3]

If it is CFS there is likely going to be unkown causes and history behind your condition. A lot of the people in the know don't even know what causes this condition.

One of the best preventative measures right now seems to be SSRIs (check out M&M forums that seem to have lot of info geared towards this - look for posts of ExDubio and FunkOdessey - yes they back up their claims with science).

I know I am going to upset the anti-SSRI crew around here but these drugs are worth a mention (if you know how to use them - nothing is efficiacous for the battle against depression and CFS/energy issues in my experience).The key, as explained over at M&M (by certain superb forum posters) seems to centre around dosage. I, for example currently take 1.25mg of Lexapro and this seems to protect me to a certain degree for conditions such as chronic reactivity to stresss/depression and especially CFS.
1.25mg of Lexapro has been an absolute God send to me. I have been off and on it but I know out of all the drugs I have ever tried this is the one that has resulted in me becoming fully functional in society. I hate reccomending SSRIs especially considering the forums I am posting in but this is a fail safe coping stragegy if you consider your depression to be that far down the spectrum (i.e, me). I take L-Methyl Folate to comabat the anhedonia and this has been an amazing complintary adjacent (see posts about deplin) and has basically transoformed my depression to almost non-existent status.

I am not saying that stragegically planned SSRI dosing is the cure to CFS but in my opinion seems to certainly be a useful tool (according to many studies) in combatting the deletrious effects caused by CFS (i.e, treating the symptons).

I am not saing for one moment that correctly dosed SSRI treatemnt is the cure for CFS but it sure as hell seems to work. I'm not the only ancedote, feel free to browse M&M and explore for further knowledge.

Of course you can use your healthy diet/supplements regimen a,longside it and that's exactly what I do.

Edited by Thorsten2, 25 December 2011 - 02:50 AM.

[calengineering]

i feel like a lot of people will try throwing in supp ideas and so forth but of course, we barely know of the basics of your situation. i'd like to know more about your sleep and eating habits, what you do for a living, if you're still depressed, etc...

give us the most important details so we can use it to give better recommendations. trust me, a lot of people here are extremely well versed in their health research and can actually piece together a complex story of your health.

[calengineering]

Do you sleep well? I've constantly battled being tired my entire life, and only started doing something about it in the past couple years (I'm 24). I was / am diagnosed with ADHD and was taking amphetamines for a bit over a year - and as much as I love the drug - I don't think it's good for me (I don't mean health wise, there's that too, but mainly I mean mentally). I started taking Lithium Orotate before going to bed, 5mg (Doctor's Best Lithium Orotate - 1 tablet = 5mg) and I didn't notice much until about 1-2 weeks. I've been waking up refreshed and have energy... it's great, and I'm pretty sure the Lithium has something to do with it.

very impressive. could you describe the difference between how you used to feel when you woke up and how you feel now? how many hours of sleep do you get and has this been consistent since starting lithium orotate?

I also started taking methylene blue in the day time - still playing with dosages, but this definitely seems to help during the day as well. Before I could fall asleep at any time of the day if you gave me a bed - and I lived like this for years (until I was prescribed amphetamine, which I no longer take). The past few days are the first in my life where I've waken up with what feels like a normal amount of energy. No SAM-e either, but I'm going to add that soon (I used to need 800mg minimum to do anything, I'm only going to take 400 mg now though).

did you start taking methylene blue when you started lithium? do you also taken lithium blue before bedtime? how long have you been taking methylene blue and lithium?

thank you

[calengineering]

sam-e worked for a few days for me but its effects almost completely disappeared later. i was against upping the dosage because of cost. i also feared continually needing to up the dosage.

[calengineering]

Hummm... I would think even 1 egg yoke a day would provide all the choline/lecithin you should need. No need to get carried away, but you could try leaving the yokes in for a month or so and see if it helps.

I've had great experiences with low dose SAM-e. I only take one 200mg on an empty stomach in the morning and I believe I'm feeling much better since starting it. It is important to take it on an empty stomach though. Something most suppliers don't tell you on the box, and some say SAM-e in the evening can cause trouble sleeping, so morning is best.

Good Luck!

how long have you been taking SAM-e?

[Dorian Grey]

I've been on SAM-e since 2007 when I had some chemical sensitivity issues at work.

I was a Joe six-pack drinker and I figured between the brewskis and the solvents at work my liver could use some help.

Not only did my chemical sensitivities resolve, but my mood improved (I'm a Joe 2-pack now), and a back pain problem I used to have seems to be a thing of the past now.

I never took more than 200-400mg per day, but it seems to have helped me on several fronts so I still drop one a day on an empty stomach with some B-Complex to keep any elevation in homocysteine in check.

[calengineering]

I've been on SAM-e since 2007 when I had some chemical sensitivity issues at work.

I was a Joe six-pack drinker and I figured between the brewskis and the solvents at work my liver could use some help.

Not only did my chemical sensitivities resolve, but my mood improved (I'm a Joe 2-pack now), and a back pain problem I used to have seems to be a thing of the past now.

I never took more than 200-400mg per day, but it seems to have helped me on several fronts so I still drop one a day on an empty stomach with some B-Complex to keep any elevation in homocysteine in check.

that's pretty incredible. i would say drinking fewer drinks a day on average is better for your brain too.
what's really interesting to me is how long you've been taking it and for it to still work for you.
i took it for other reasons though. namely, mood improvement. that lasted for about a week.

[syncleft]

Sorry for the slow reply, calengineering. I've answered your questions below.

very impressive. could you describe the difference between how you used to feel when you woke up and how you feel now? how many hours of sleep do you get and has this been consistent since starting lithium orotate?

Before when I used to wake up, it would feel nearly impossible to get out of bed. I missed work, school, etc. at times simply because I didn't have the energy to wake up on particular days. My sleep schedule was not fantastic, but at the same time I shouldn't have had so much trouble waking up - it just doesn't seem right to struggle that much. Just the thought of having to get up, wash up, brush seemed so hard. One may say this could be symptoms of depression, but I've had these symptoms for the bulk of my teenage and adult life. When I wake up now, I lay in bed for a couple minutes... and then I get up, do whatever wake up rituals I need to do without much pain and suffering.

I sleep a consistent 7-8 hours now, which I've come to believe is an amount most adults need. I used to sleep 5-6 hours, but I feel adding on the extra 1-2 hours has helped my day become more productive such that the 2 hour loss in waking time is made up by productivity. As I mentioned, lithium had some negative effects at first - that is sluggishness, sometimes waking up groggy - but after 1.5 - 2 weeks these effects subsided and I feel as though my sleep quality is enhanced because of lithium. I'm not saying that it's true my sleep quality has enhanced, but I can say that's how it feels. It's been consistent since. I don't wake up amazingly refreshed every single day, but at least I have the energy to get up and do what I need to do.


did you start taking methylene blue when you started lithium? do you also taken lithium blue before bedtime? how long have you been taking methylene blue and lithium?

No I didn't begin both at the same time. I started lithium far earlier than methylene blue. I still struggled throughout the day for energy even with taking lithium, so I decided to start methylene blue probably 3 weeks after beginning lithium. I take it you meant do I take methylene blue before bed time and to answer that I don't. I do take lithium orotate either right before bed (because I forgot to take it) or 1-2 hours before bed. I haven't tried taking it throughout the day, but I may try that... perhaps 2 or 3 doses of 5mg lithium orotate. My last dose of methylene blue is typically 4-6 hours before bed. It has helped tremendously with energy throughout the day. It's not comparable to amphetamine, but hell, if I can say I don't NEED to take amphetamine, it's definitely doing something in the energy department. Enough to keep me somewhat productive. Come to think of it, the last time I posted on any forums was when I was taking Adderall - I didn't even have the energy or will to write since I've been off Adderall (at least a couple months now).

Lithium I've been taking for a little over a month - Methylene blue I've been taking perhaps 1.5 weeks now. 120mcg per dose seems to work well for me.

thank you
No problem

Edited by syncleft, 30 December 2011 - 04:29 PM.