36 replies to this topic

[eternaltraveler]

I'm thinking about signing up. I'm 26 with no health problems. What could I expect to pay for the life insurance that would cover the contract?

I would prefer good freezing methods as opposed to the cheap ones.

[eternaltraveler]

I more or less assume that if the technology exists to reanimate me then the technology also exists to give me a new body.

[eternaltraveler]

where do you live?

[eternaltraveler]

what is the rational behind such a ban?

[eternaltraveler]

Thats better.

[Infernity]

I know that it is impossible to pay for being freezed after you die, but you have to pay a monthly prize from the moment you decide you wanna do it. Now, my question is, when it'll be possible to defrost- shall they defrost first those who has paid earlyer? I mean shall they bring back to live again those who paid more, so it will be worth to actually sign in in an earlyer age?

Yours
~Infernity

[DJS]

Elrond,

I am by no means an expert on cryonics or vitrification, but I thought it might be of interest to you if I put forth the opinion of one our community's leaders.

I do not have the time to find the specific quote, but I remember Aubrey de Grey being pro-Cryonics, while saying that he didn't think that vitrification would make much of a difference. His logic; attempts at future resuscitation will not be made until the requisite level of technology has been reached. IOW, there's no point in taking any unnecessary risks with the cryonauts until we can be absolutely certain (or as close to absolutely certain as possible) that our attempts will succeed. If the above line of reasoning is true, then resuscitation attempts would not begin until after full blown nano has been developed, at which point the kinds of damage associated with the more traditional freezing process would be mute.

An argument could be made for opting for the less expensive (non-vitrified) policy, saving yourself a ton of money, and reallocating those resources into something that will give you a better chance of never having to be frozen in the first place.

[kraemahz]

I know that it is impossible to pay for being freezed after you die, but you have to pay a monthly prize from the moment you decide you wanna do it. Now, my question is, when it'll be possible to defrost- shall they defrost first those who has paid earlyer? I mean shall they bring back to live again those who paid more, so it will be worth to actually sign in in an earlyer age?

You shouldn't worry about that too much, there usually aren't big upfront fees for signing up for cryonics. It's a contract deal that they will take care of your 'internment' for such and such amount of money plus a yearly fee. As to reanimation, most likely it will happen with the latest preserved bodies first irrespective of how much you paid. When first attempted they will be unsure of their unpracticed skills and want to deal with the best preserved subjects they can find, and for that matter wouldn't want to risk anyone who they felt was 'important'. If only your head was preserved you probably have very little chance to be reanimated early, as it's a big step between regrowing damaged parts and regrowing an entire body.

[jaydfox]

Don, I would disagree. If the only thing that matters is reconsituting the same number and approximate location of neurons, then freezing and vitrification might be comparable. But if you want to reconstruct the thousands of interneural connections per neuron, vitrification wins hands down.

Nanotech may be able to reconstruct your brain atom by atom, but it has to do so with the information available. Either option loses a huge amount of information, but the point isn't how much is lost, it's how much is left. Freezing roughly preserves the location of neurons, but a hefty proportion of interneural connections are wiped out. Replacing those means faking it. Vitrification does a much better job in this category, though it still leaves a lot of room to be desired. Less faking it required.

The joke is, cryonics is only the second worst thing that can happen to you. I would say that freezing is the second worst, and vitrification is the third worst. If you can afford vitrification, I wouldn't skimp.

Another thing to consider is upgrade options. Alcor doesn't presently offer freezing, as I understand it. If memory serves me, neither does the other main cryonics outfit in the U.S.

If you purchase freezing through a third party vendor, you need to make sure that you have an upgrade path to vitrification should you decide to do so. If not, then you would in effect have to purchase a second cryonics plan, and cancel the first, possibly losing any deposit and membership fees paid to the old plan.

[jaydfox]

Elrond, thanks for sharing your interest. I think it's important that people see others' interest in cryonics. I myself am still highly doubtful that "I" will be preserved, as has been discussed ad nauseum in the philosophy forum. However, as a pragmatist, I think there is enough chance that it might work, which when multiplied by the enormous benefits if it does work, justifies signing up. I plan to do so before I'm 30, although exactly when I will sign up, I'm not sure.

I'm currently 27, so I'm looking at about two and a half years or less. First I need an insurance policy, but I need one anyway for my family, so that's a given. However, then I need to discuss this with my wife, as to why I'm having a substantial portion of the insurance money diverted away from her and the kids into something seen as... Well, I don't think I need to complete that sentence.

In the end, it is my decision and mine alone to make, not my wife's. But in a partnership, such decisions are rarely so easy, so I have my work cut out for me.

[DJS]

Hey Jay,

If you've got the money for vitrification then hey, that's great. Better to go with the best preservation method available, right? I was simply repeating an interesting tidbit from Aubrey that I read somewhere. Could it possibly have been from the ImmInst book project...? I did some searching and I can't find the quote, but I'll take a look in the SCOD when I get home. I would also be interested to know how Aubrey came to this opinion. Perhaps I'll PM him...

[jaydfox]

Well, he certainly thinks outside the box. He thinks, and argues scientifically, that CR will only extend the human lifespan at most 2-3 years. Not many life extensionists I know agree with him on that one.

If he did indeed say this about vitrification vs. freezing, I would wager that this would also put him at odds with most of the well-informed life extensionists.

But he's got our attention with SENS. And 1 out 3 ain't bad.

At any rate, whether he's right or wrong about any of these three issues, he's got us thinking critically about them for ourselves, and that's what matters.

[jaydfox]

How to Use Life Insurance to Fund Cryonics Procedures
http://www.alcor.org...ding/index.html

Sums things up pretty well. The figures could of course be off by a small factor in either direction.

There's also a list of insurance agents with experience writing policies to fund cryonics.

[Infernity]

Well cosmos, if you are not paying for that option in the current time- you won't be able to have that option in the future for case you will die...
Is it possible to ask from somebody else to pay for your preservation in case you will die? (To virtually pay only after the death)?

Yours truthfully
~Infernity

[Bruce Klein]

To be sure, Infernity, post-death 'emergency cryonics' is possible through the Cryonics Institute (Clinton Township, Michigan).

In my opinion, for those who sign up in advance, Alcor (Scottsdale, AZ) currently has the most advanced suspension procedures.

At 30 yrs old, I'm signed up with Alcor as a neuro and pay about $100/yr for $100,000 life insurance + $400/yr membership.

[eternaltraveler]

vitrification would be better if they could keep you at -130 instead of liquid nitrogen temp of -196. chilling much past -130 results in macroscopic fractures.

Bruce is that a term policy on your life insurance? What's the term?

[eternaltraveler]

alcor is working on correcting the fracturing problem, and I believe they are planning on doing this by not keeping you so cold

[jaydfox]

Yes, Alcor's site mentions an alternative they are testing:

http://www.alcor.org/procedures.html

Long-Term Care

Currently Alcor patients are stored under liquid nitrogen at a temperature of -196°C. The liquid nitrogen is held in vacuum-insulated dewars that require replenishment every few weeks. Liquid nitrogen is used because it is inexpensive and reliable.

Alcor is currently experimenting with an alternative "vapor phase" storage system that would retain the safety and reliability advantages of liquid nitrogen, but allow patients to be maintained at controlled temperatures warmer than liquid nitrogen. This will reduce or eliminate fracturing injury.

(emphasis added)

[Infernity]

Long-Term Care

Currently Alcor patients are stored under liquid nitrogen at a temperature of -196°C. The liquid nitrogen is held in vacuum-insulated dewars that require replenishment every few weeks. Liquid nitrogen is used because it is inexpensive and reliable.

Alcor is currently experimenting with an alternative "vapor phase" storage system that would retain the safety and reliability advantages of liquid nitrogen, but allow patients to be maintained at controlled temperatures warmer than liquid nitrogen. This will reduce or eliminate fracturing injury.

Sounds like a sure preservation Jay... All that's left is to slove the problem of defrosting back to live...

~Infernity

[kraemahz]

Sounds like a sure preservation Jay... All that's left is to slove the problem of defrosting back to live...

And the thing that killed them in the first place. [wis]

[Matt]

So if we do get this very good method of freezing without causing the fractures then how much difficult would it be to revive someone.

I mean if you good could thaw the person and repair the thing that killed you AND repair the brain if any minor damage... Would it be no different from reviving a person that has died 30 minutes to an hour ago.

Like when people drown in Very cold water and revived

Edited by whoa182, 10 February 2005 - 05:16 AM.

[Infernity]

whoa182, you are forgetting one thing- if we will just defrost someone and let him live again when possible, he will probably die again! we have to stop the aging process too!

Heh, I wonder how will the human body respond a second freezing if we will defrost someone and will forgett to stop the aging process, well and than he would die again...

Now, is all that reasonable...?

Yours
~Infernity