13 replies to this topic

[shaggy]

Just stumbled on this study due for release.. Makes worrying reading for regular lipoic acid takers like myself. Wonder if the results translate in a similar manner in normal weight individuals without IGT?

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22107734

[snuffie]

Shit, guess I had better get more exercise...

[pycnogenol]

I take it and will continue to do so. I only take the stabilized "R" form of lipoic acid. The R form of lipoic acid is the form naturally found in the cells of your body that is used to make the energetic cellular enzymes perform. It is the preferred form for dietary supplementation. If it doesn’t have an R in front of the ingredient, then it contains 50% of the S form (a 50/50 mix of R and S). The "S" alpha lipoic acid is not a natural form of the nutrient and it actually has a backwards molecular spin. I take 150 mg of stabilized R-lipoic acid twice daily (300 mg total amount) and have for years.

Edited by pycnogenol, 09 December 2011 - 11:56 PM.

[Sillewater]

http://www.longecity...ealthy-kidneys/

There seemed to be detrimental effects in healthy livers however the doses were pretty high. The study also used racemic. If lipoic acid's role is indeed to recycle antioxidants, then having low baseline antioxidant status would cause lipoic acid to become a pro-oxidant (as discussed in your posted study). Instead lipoic acid may provide a health benefit as a pro-oxidant by acting through Nrf2 pathways. It's one of the only things that actually gets in there and does it.

[hamishm00]

It's a crying shame they used racemic!

[Dorian Grey]

It's a crying shame they used racemic!

A thumping big dose of it too! A gram a day?

Most of the R-ALA I see comes at about a third (100mg) dosage compared to the 300mg dose of the traditional RS-ALA.

Megadosing fouls things up yet again!

ALA concentrations in blood are normally measured in nanograms per ml. I don't see how anyone could think dropping a gram at a time might be a smart thing to do.

I actually developed a biotin deficiency taking 300mg RS-ALA per day for several years. ALA both blocks absorption of biotin and competitively inhibits its action in the old bodkin.

Now I get 100mg tabs of the RS-ALA, cut them in half, and take them Monday, Wednesday and Fridays, with biotin in between.

Edited by synesthesia, 10 December 2011 - 03:50 PM.

[niner]

It's a crying shame they used racemic!

That would certainly be the case if the S isomer was harmful. But what's the evidence that S is harmful? I've not seen much of consequence. It's more toxic than R in thiamine-deficient rats, but I'm not sure that means much to thiamine-replete humans. The main reason it would be good to use the R isomer is to remove an excuse to not believe the results. There is a practical advantage to the racemic form; it's more stable. The R form is prone to polymerization.

[hamishm00]

Perhaps an argument could be made that because S-ALA does not occur naturally in the body the body has no mechanisms to deal with it, making it potentially (or even likely) harmful in high doses (such as the ones used in the study above) and on that basis alone you should not be ingesting it (i.e. consider it harmful until proven otherwise).

Although an antioxidant, S-ALA has no other properties which have to date been shown to be positive. I don't think S-ALA should be regarded as something that can conveniently be added to R-ALA to make it more stable, but rather it should be seen as a completely separate drug (one which has effects on the body which are different than R-ALA).

It's a shame that they mixed the two together, because it's therefore impossible to tell whether or not the negative results are attributable to R-ALA's ugly sister (S-ALA).

Edited by hamishm00, 11 December 2011 - 03:00 PM.

[niner]

Well, you could make the same argument about polymerized RALA. It's something not found in nature, but it's probably present in small quantities in any sample of lipoic acid. I believe conversion to the sodium salt prevents polymerization though, so that's an option. This argument about things not occurring naturally in the body could also be applied to most of the natural products, pharmaceuticals, essential micronutrients, and GRAS compounds that we ingest. Actually, the body has a highly efficient system for getting rid of foreign molecules.

[albedo]

I am still using R-ALA. While keeping researching on effects on healthy humans I found this supportive study. A bit old (1999) and only looking at short time supplementation though .....:

"In vitro studies have shown that alpha-lipoic acid (LA) is an antioxidant. There is a paucity of studies on LA supplementation in humans. Therefore, the aim of this study was to assess the effect of oral supplementation with LA alone and in combination with alpha-tocopherol (AT) on measures of oxidative stress. A total of 31 healthy adults were supplemented for 2 months either with LA (600 mg/d, n = 16), or with AT (400 IU/d, n = 15) alone, and then with the combination of both for 2 additional months. At baseline, after 2 and 4 months of supplementation, urine for F2-isoprostanes, plasma for protein carbonyl measurement and low-density lipoprotein (LDL) oxidative susceptibility was collected. Plasma oxidizability was assessed after incubation with 100 mM 2,2'-azobis (2-amidinopropane) hydrochloride (AAPH) for 4 h at 37 degrees C. LDL was subjected to copper- and AAPH-catalyzed oxidation at 37 degrees C over 5 h and the lag time was computed. LA significantly increased the lag time of LDL lipid peroxide formation for both copper-catalyzed and AAPH-induced LDL oxidalion (p < .05), decreased urinary F2-isoprostanes levels (p < .05), and plasma carbonyl levels after AAPH oxidation (p < .001). AT prolonged LDL lag time of lipid peroxide formation (p < .01 ) and conjugated dienes (p < .01) after copper-catalyzed LDL oxidation, decreased urinary F2-isoprostanes (p < .001), but had no effect on plasma carbonyls. The addition of LA to AT did not produce an additional significant improvement in the measures of oxidative stress. In conclusion, LA supplementation functions as an antioxidant, because it decreases plasma- and LDL-oxidation and urinary isoprostanes."

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/10569644

[JChief]

Good thing I exercise. Why aren't you all?

[Louise101]

Sorry to be confused on this supplement but is R-ALA the same thing as R - Lipoic Acid?

[tintinet]

Sorry to be confused on this supplement but is R-ALA the same thing as R - Lipoic Acid?

Usually, yes.

[JChief]

*yawn*