88 replies to this topic

[shaggy]

I think all the important one's have been covered, the only thing I would add is aged garlic extract, ashwagandha (seems to have multiple benefits) and a decent whey protein.

I see Niner recommends carnosine - I thought beta alanine was a better choice than straight carnosine?

[ramon25]

could you explain paleo 2.0 in one sentence?

A pastoral whole foods diet that can improve your health by more closely emulating the evolutionary metabolic milieu (EM2) and avoiding the hazards of industrial foodways, this diet is a practical framework using whole foods easily available in the 21st century.

[Ampa-omega]

b vitamins
zinc (not high enough even with high zinc foods)
antiinflamatorys to kill pain
adatogen herbs (ginseng,ashwaganda,astragalus,gotukola)
mitochondrial (b alanine, alcar,ala)
sleep (melatonin)

thats what i think you need for a basic foundation

That might be what you need, but it's not what I need, and I suspect it's not what a lot of people need. Anti-inflammatories to kill pain are a medical application. I don't have a chronic pain problem, so I don't need them in a basic foundation. I occasionally use them as needed.

I get enough b vitamins from diet, so I don't think I need those. I'm doing pretty well without adaptogens; I've tried some, but they didn't make the grade. Maybe I'm missing the boat there, but they strike me as things that one might need to correct for a particular condition, and not part of a basic foundation.

I don't think young healthy people need melatonin, though it might be good for older people or possibly for people with sleep problems. It would probably be better to work on basic sleep hygiene first before jumping into substances.

funny i repped your post accidently, ok w/e. well this thread is about substances (must have) (supplements), those are selected from my opinion, i mean many people may not need to take any substances and just stick with sleep and food,
but hey w/e works for you.

Edited by Ampa-omega, 10 January 2012 - 02:03 AM.

[smithx]

metformin

I've been curious about metformin, but some of the side effects or possible side effects have so far stopped me from taking it. Have you (Duke or anyone reading this who's taking it) experienced any notable side effects?

I'm particularly concerned about the chance of testosterone reduction, and also any possibility of long term use causing kidney damage. Increased homocysteine levels also seem worrying.

Malabsorption of vitamin B12 also seems like a possible issue, although I suppose taking more B12 could fix the latter one. I wonder if it may also reduce absorption of any other nutrients though.

Edited by smithx, 10 January 2012 - 02:13 AM.

[niner]

Is there a particular form or brand of Iodine generally regarded here on the board as superior?

I use 225mcg potassium iodide tablets from NOW.

[niner]

thats what i think you need for a basic foundation

That might be what you need, but it's not what I need, and I suspect it's not what a lot of people need.

this thread is about substances (must have) (supplements), those are selected from my opinion, i mean many people may not need to take any substances and just stick with sleep and food,

Yeah, sorry, I didn't mean to be a pain. The thread is about each of our must haves, and those are yours, that's fair enough. The thing I was objecting to was the idea that it would be a basic foundation for everyone.

[Ampa-omega]

ok it is a bit hard to create a system for everyone
but i guess making sure you take care of food, sleep, hygiene, and deficiencies are a start, your not a pain it was a good point to make.

[gt190]

My must haves are:

D3
Multi
Fish oil
Probiotic


can i ask why people are supplementing with:

K2 and Magnesium

as i have been thinking about including these

[hippocampus]

because they're getting to little of these from their food

[gt190]

but are they not contained in adequate amounts in a multi?

othro core for example

[Ark]

It's funny i see so many must haves that you can get from a simple diet change?

I would hope to see more items like Cat's Claw or Lion's Mane which generally you won't eat in every meal.

Thoughts?

[syncleft]

My must haves are:

D3
Multi
Fish oil
Probiotic


can i ask why people are supplementing with:

K2 and Magnesium

as i have been thinking about including these

Magnesium is an extremely important mineral. Not only does it control / help prevent basically all aspects heart disease (arrhythmias, atherosclorosis, high blood pressure), it's important for all muscles in the body (calcium is what allows your muscles to contract, magnesium is what allows your muscles to relax... not enough magnesium can lead to muscle tension and cramping), and has beneficial effects for the brain. I suggest reading a book called The Magnesium Factor. It will enlighten you a great deal. Magnesium is definitely a "must have" for me.

Magnesium is depleted in processed food, and I know I definitely don't get enough from my diet. Many Multivitamins do contain magnesium, but it is often in the form of magnesium oxide which is essentially the least bioavailable. I prefer Source Naturals Ultramag as it has no magnesium oxide, and contains multiple forms of bioavailable magnesium to ensure your body is actually absorbing it.

Again, I suggest you read the book The Magnesium Factor - I've barely covered the importance of magnesium.

Edited by syncleft, 11 January 2012 - 02:48 AM.

[syr_]

Core:
-Resveratrol
-AC-11
-5-loxin
-Curcumin
-DHA (instead of generic fish oil or omega combos which all have incorrect ratios and contain excess EPA)
-Low dose quality multivitamin (1/3 to 1/2 of LEF mix)
-Milk Thistle (I find liver support essential for general health)

Corollary:
-Zinc (because I'm male)
-Magnesium malate
-D3 when not taking sun
-Quality moderate dose B-complex (AOR) when not taking multi

[syr_]

Magnesium is an extremely important mineral.

I totally agree with you about the importance of magnesium. Ultramag is MUCH cheaper than the AOR Magnesium Malate that I take and I'll try it next time.

[syr_]

but are they not contained in adequate amounts in a multi?

othro core for example

Magnesium usually no, or it is in a non-bioavailable form (oxide) which is basically worthless.
I dont remember ortho-core dosage, but if you take full dose and you still get about 300g/day of elemental magnesium, you are set.

OK i checked the label: Magnesium (Aspartate, Oxide, Ascorbate, Chlorophyllin) 210mg

Yes, you need mag supplementation when taking ortho-core. Probably there is like 60mg of elemental magnesium in there (oxide doesnt count).

Edited by syr_, 11 January 2012 - 08:22 AM.

[gt190]

Interesting, i will start supplementing with mag and look at bit more into K2 since i already take D3.

Thanks for the help!

[hippocampus]

-DHA (instead of generic fish oil or omega combos which all have incorrect ratios and contain excess EPA)

and why would these be incorrect ratios?

[hbar]

Multi (1x MultiBasics)
D3
K2
Magnesium
Fish oil
Aspirin

I'm actually surprised at the lack of mentions of aspirin so far. Fear of bleeding, or something else? Of all the supps I take, I think only D3 has been shown to have greater cancer-reducing ability.

I'm curious about iodine as well. I don't remember iodine ever popping up on these kinds of lists until recently - what's the rationale for it? Just a lack in our diet, or other benefits?

I did try lithium orotate but had bad reactions to it, so I've cut that. Also used to take green tea but am just drinking more green tea now (Honest Tea's organic honey green tea is amazing). Only thing I'd really consider adding is a red wine extract, but it seems hard to find good ones and they're expensive.

[Bluenoise]

I'm actually surprised at the lack of mentions of aspirin so far. Fear of bleeding, or something else?

Yeah clotting, combined with that fact that taking it regularily and stopping is associated with increased clot risk... Doctors typically recommend something along the lines of this:

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/daily-aspirin-therapy/HB00073'[/url]]
You should consider daily aspirin therapy only if you've had a heart attack or stroke, or you have a high risk of either. And then, only take aspirin with your doctor's approval. Although taking an occasional aspirin or two is safe for most adults to use for headaches, body aches or fever, daily use of aspirin can have serious side effects, including internal bleeding.

I believe most people prefer to take alternative routes with less risk to simular benefits.

Though I have to admit I've considered it...

[mikeinnaples]

Aspirin is probably better than most of the supplements listed especially given some of the latest long term study results that were posted in the forums here.

[syr_]

-DHA (instead of generic fish oil or omega combos which all have incorrect ratios and contain excess EPA)

and why would these be incorrect ratios?

I dont have the studies at hand, but in short, EPA are easier to get from one's diet.
A good ratio for omega-3 supplementation would be 1:1 (ref.1), with a shift towards DHA to treat hyperlipidemia (which I have genetically). A bad ratio would be 3:1. 99% of the supplements I have seen have higher EPA dose.
Anyway, that was my protocol. YMMV.

--
(1) http://www.umm.edu/a...ga-3-000316.htm

[syr_]

I'm curious about iodine as well. I don't remember iodine ever popping up on these kinds of lists until recently - what's the rationale for it? Just a lack in our diet, or other benefits?

Lack of fish in typical diet, helps tyroid function esp when in a low-caloric diet (we can assume a diet aimed at longevity be in slight deficit). So, unless u have hyperthyroidism, it's a good addition.
I take it from enriched marine salt. Your multi may have enough already.

[tintinet]

Multi (1x MultiBasics)
D3
K2
Magnesium
Fish oil
Aspirin

I'm actually surprised at the lack of mentions of aspirin so far. Fear of bleeding, or something else? Of all the supps I take, I think only D3 has been shown to have greater cancer-reducing ability....

Diabetes drug can reduce risk of cancer, researchers find


Metformin reduced the development of lung tumors in mice by more than 70%. Clinical trials on humans for lung, breast and prostate cancer are being organized.

[nameless]

My list is somewhat basic (at least currently):

D3
K2
Fish oil
Magnesium
Zinc
Vit C
CoQ10
Probiotics

Several of those I wouldn't necessarily recommend that everyone take, however.

A couple of general questions, and especially curious as to Niner's regimen...

For those taking iodine, do you take 150mcg/daily, or a partial dose? What would be a safe dose for someone with Hashimoto's?

And for K2, what would be a safe dose of MK-4, equivalent to the average amounts achieved by diet? I've been considering trying Thorne's MK-4/D3 product, just unsure of dosing, or if it's necessarily worthwhile in addition to (or in lieu of) MK-7.

[hivemind]

Multi (1x MultiBasics)
D3
K2
Magnesium
Fish oil
Aspirin

I'm actually surprised at the lack of mentions of aspirin so far. Fear of bleeding, or something else? Of all the supps I take, I think only D3 has been shown to have greater cancer-reducing ability....

Diabetes drug can reduce risk of cancer, researchers find


Metformin reduced the development of lung tumors in mice by more than 70%. Clinical trials on humans for lung, breast and prostate cancer are being organized.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/12235466

After metformin administration, there was a significant reduction in serum level of total testosterone (p=0.0001), free testosterone (P=0.002), and 17 hydroxyprogesterone (p=0.0001).

[tintinet]

Nothing without possible side effects:

J Allergy Clin Immunol. 2012 Jan 9. [Epub ahead of print]

Pancreatitis as a novel complication of aspirin therapy in patients withaspirin-exacerbated respiratory disease.

Hoyte FC, Weber RW, Katial RK.

Source

Allergy and Immunology Clinic, National Jewish Health, Denver, Colo.

PMID: 22236727 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher]
Qual Prim Care. 2011;19(4):251-3.
Aspirin bleeding in perspective.

Morgan G, Elwood P.

Source

Department of Primary Care and Public Health, Cardiff University, University Hospital of Wales, Wales, UK. morgan@fforrdbeck.fsnet.co.uk

Abstract

Aspirin therapy should be an adjunct to the medical management of patients who have had a vascular event but the role of aspirin prophylaxis in the primary prevention of vascular events is less clear. This benefit-versus-risk balance may, however, be influenced by evidence that aspirin reduces bowel cancer risk. Wider aspirin use could lead to more advice being sought on its use from community pharmacists and general practitioners. Yet 10% of those taking aspirin experience symptoms that negatively affect their daily quality of life. These symptoms, such as heartburn, may discourage more individuals from taking aspirin than would the risk of bleeding.

PMID: 21902904 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Multi (1x MultiBasics)
D3
K2
Magnesium
Fish oil
Aspirin

I'm actually surprised at the lack of mentions of aspirin so far. Fear of bleeding, or something else? Of all the supps I take, I think only D3 has been shown to have greater cancer-reducing ability....

Diabetes drug can reduce risk of cancer, researchers find


Metformin reduced the development of lung tumors in mice by more than 70%. Clinical trials on humans for lung, breast and prostate cancer are being organized.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/12235466

After metformin administration, there was a significant reduction in serum level of total testosterone (p=0.0001), free testosterone (P=0.002), and 17 hydroxyprogesterone (p=0.0001).

[niner]

For those taking iodine, do you take 150mcg/daily, or a partial dose? What would be a safe dose for someone with Hashimoto's?

And for K2, what would be a safe dose of MK-4, equivalent to the average amounts achieved by diet? I've been considering trying Thorne's MK-4/D3 product, just unsure of dosing, or if it's necessarily worthwhile in addition to (or in lieu of) MK-7.

I take 225mcg iodine daily. This is a little over the RDA (150mcg) but there is a long history of people safely taking far higher doses, particularly in Japan. 225mcg is a dose of convenience, since that happens to be the amount in the NOW Foods KI that I use. "High" doses of iodine are said to be possibly precipitatory toward Hashimoto's, though I don't know how high "high" is. A Hashimoto's patient argues against iodine supplementation.

There is a lot of discussion in these forums of the various forms of vitamin K and their respective merits. My initial choice was mk7 on the grounds of better pharmacokinetics (much longer half life) than mk4, but mk4 is the primary mammalian form. The doses of mk4 that you'd get from food appear to be in the tens to hundreds of micrograms, from what I've seen. The therapeutic doses of mk4 for osteoporosis range as high as 45 to 90 milligrams. Supplemental forms of mk4 are usually low milligram doses. I've taken 90mcg of mk7 for a long time, lately 5 days/week. A couple months ago I added Carlson's 5mg mk4 daily. It's kind of a megadose, which I normally avoid. Since it's a dry formulation, it might not be absorbed all that well, a possible compensatory effect. In the future I'll probably cut the dose on this. Thorne's D3/MK4 product looks pretty good. It's in oil, so bioavailability should be good. A 2 drop dose is 1000IU of D and 200mcg of MK4. These are reasonable doses; it's very cost effective too. I still have some concern about the pharmacokinetics of the K vitamers, and might continue with the MK7. That might be overkill, but I'm a little osteopenic, so I want to do everything I can for bone.

[nameless]

Thanks for the reply.

Regarding iodine, I've seen similar concerns raised before. But typically when people say 'iodine supplementation', they refer to megadoses in the mg range. Just wondering if RDA level or below would be considered safe for Hashimoto people. I'd think it should be, but I guess it's something I should probably ask my endo one of these days. I haven't been taking a multi, so it may be worth taking a baby dose of iodine just to make sure I am at least getting some daily. I never use salt on anything (although it's in some foods anyway).

I recall the MK4-MK7 discussions, but sort of lost track of whatever current studies are going on. I believe the Rotterdam study showed MK-7 to 9 were most protective for heart disease, but have always wondered if the basic mechanism for all Ks was simply conversion to MK4. The doses measured in Rotterdam were also really tiny compared to supplemental doses.

Thorne also makes a MK-4 1mg/drop version which is also cost effective, but that dose may be a bit higher than I'd want. I don't have oesto issues exactly, although my neck has its share of bone spurs and such. One minor issue I just noticed, but am unsure if it's due to iHerb's stock or the product itself -- unless I take a 3-4 drops of the D3/K2 product daily, it'll actually expire before I'd get to use it all.
At 2 drops daily it'd last 600 days. But it expires in March 2013. And their K2 only product at 1mg/daily would last a rather insane 1200 days, but it too expires in Mar. 2013. I guess I'll check with Thorne if the product really expires that fast, or if iHerb just has old stock.

[shifter]

Has anyone done research into all the fillers, extras and 'glues' for the capsules and tablets we take? If we only take the one 'multivitamin' a day perhaps it's harmless. But taking 20 capsules/tablets a day might bring cumulative effects that are not so good.

Many supplements I see do more harm then good. 1000IU of Vitamin E (dl-alpha) How did that ever make it to the supermarket shelf? How about 500-1000mg Calcium (on its own! No supporting minerals like Magnesium or Phosphorus). Most you see are pointless and some are actually toxic.

If Vitamin D3 could be patented by a pharma company, they would and charge 1000x the price we pay for it now. I like this one

I believe taking things naturally is a better way than lab created. For example, Chlorella, Spirulina, Wheat/Barely grasses etc would make better multis than what comes out of the lab. And if you can get it as a powder, much better than pills, capsules or tablets.

[hivemind]

Has anyone done research into all the fillers, extras and 'glues' for the capsules and tablets we take? If we only take the one 'multivitamin' a day perhaps it's harmless. But taking 20 capsules/tablets a day might bring cumulative effects that are not so good.

Many supplements I see do more harm then good. 1000IU of Vitamin E (dl-alpha) How did that ever make it to the supermarket shelf? How about 500-1000mg Calcium (on its own! No supporting minerals like Magnesium or Phosphorus). Most you see are pointless and some are actually toxic.

If Vitamin D3 could be patented by a pharma company, they would and charge 1000x the price we pay for it now. I like this one

I believe taking things naturally is a better way than lab created. For example, Chlorella, Spirulina, Wheat/Barely grasses etc would make better multis than what comes out of the lab. And if you can get it as a powder, much better than pills, capsules or tablets.

I have done some research on magnesium stearate. It is a harmless substance.

I don't like powders. They are much more unpractical than capsules. Capsules contain powders.