46 replies to this topic

[Thorsten3]

Copied and pasted from wikipedia:

Mental health

Berberine seems to act as an herbal antidepressant and a neuroprotector against neurodegenerative disorders.^{[87][88][89][90]} Berberine inhibits prolyl oligopeptidase (POP) in a dose-dependent manner. Berberine is also known to bind to sigma receptors like many synthetic antidepressant drugs. As berberine is a natural compound that has been safely administered to humans, preliminary results suggest the initiation of clinical trials in patients with depression, bipolar affective disorder, schizophrenia, or related diseases in which cognitive capabilities are affected, with either the extract or pure berberine. New experimental results suggest berberine may have a potential for inhibition and prevention of Alzheimer's disease (AD), mainly through both cholinesterase (ChEs)inhibitory and β-amyloids pathways,^[91][92] and additionally through antioxidant capacities.^[93]
Other studies have shown berberine to increase noradrenaline and serotonin levels in the brain (rats) while inhibiting dopaminergic activity.^[94][95] The half-life of berberine in vivo seems to be three to four hours, thus suggesting administration three times a day if steady levels are to be achieved.^[96]
Berberine seems to be able to antagonize orexin receptors, which may partly explain its metabolic, anti-Alzheimer and neurotransmitter modulating properties. [1]
Berberine may also act in a manner comparable to Tianeptine by increasing the number of serotonin transporters available in the brain, enhacing the reuptake of serotonin.^[97]



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berberine

Edited by Thorsten2, 02 February 2012 - 09:51 PM.

[Lufega]

The problem with berberine is that it raises liver enzymes in some people. I tested mine while using it and they definitely increased. It wasn't by much, but it was still above the normal range.

[Thorsten3]

Thanks for replying.

What did you notice by way of effects?

Do you think the rise in liver enzymes could be offset by using something like silymarin or something else liver friendly?

[Lufega]

Thanks for replying.

What did you notice by way of effects?

Do you think the rise in liver enzymes could be offset by using something like silymarin or something else liver friendly?

I felt the effects your posts described. It does have an obvious effect on cognition. Maybe my dose was too high. I was using 800 mg twice a day. Perhaps less wont cause this problem. I did use silymarin to bring them down again.

[Thorsten3]

It's kind of weird it being bad for the liver as in this product it is being used as a liver protectant:

http://www.iherb.com...lets/20873?at=0



It must be to do with the way berberine interacts with the other herbs in the formula or something. Or it's just a twisted product because what I've read the liver concerns should be considered properly.

Edited by Thorsten2, 03 February 2012 - 07:46 PM.

[Lufega]

You know, I've been using a product called tribiotics for a week now. I have a lingering cough that wont go away. Again, I've been enjoying increased cognitive capacity. Because of that, I've also been posting more and my work is more productive. Not sure if it's the berberine or maybe olive leaf ? This product also contains artemisinin, black walnut hulls and citrus seed. Any ideas ? Something is working here, I wish I could figure it out.

[Ark]

Copied and pasted from wikipedia:

Mental health

Berberine seems to act as an herbal antidepressant and a neuroprotector against neurodegenerative disorders.^{[87][88][89][90]} Berberine inhibits prolyl oligopeptidase (POP) in a dose-dependent manner. Berberine is also known to bind to sigma receptors like many synthetic antidepressant drugs. As berberine is a natural compound that has been safely administered to humans, preliminary results suggest the initiation of clinical trials in patients with depression, bipolar affective disorder, schizophrenia, or related diseases in which cognitive capabilities are affected, with either the extract or pure berberine. New experimental results suggest berberine may have a potential for inhibition and prevention of Alzheimer's disease (AD), mainly through both cholinesterase (ChEs)inhibitory and β-amyloids pathways,^[91][92] and additionally through antioxidant capacities.^[93]
Other studies have shown berberine to increase noradrenaline and serotonin levels in the brain (rats) while inhibiting dopaminergic activity.^[94][95] The half-life of berberine in vivo seems to be three to four hours, thus suggesting administration three times a day if steady levels are to be achieved.^[96]
Berberine seems to be able to antagonize orexin receptors, which may partly explain its metabolic, anti-Alzheimer and neurotransmitter modulating properties. [1]
Berberine may also act in a manner comparable to Tianeptine by increasing the number of serotonin transporters available in the brain, enhacing the reuptake of serotonin.^[97]



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berberine

It's great stuff to stack with other noots.

[Thorsten3]

How would one describe the effects? Something that increases 'levels' of serotonin and also its re-uptake sounds very interesting. Especially combined with increased levels of noradrenalin (improvement of hedonic tone but also might trigger anxiety) and sigma agonsim (anti-depressive, anxiolytic, neuroprotective).

Something that inhibits dopamanergic activity would mean this isn't a herb to use recreationally but it might have great potential use in helping with a range of disorders.

I'd imagine it to be pretty calming, maybe similar to DHEA but without the anxiogenic side of things that some people see.

I'm going to try some in the near future i think. Berberine and uridine are the two things that I am going to try soon.

Edited by Thorsten2, 03 February 2012 - 11:49 PM.

[Cephalon]

Is there alot Berberine in Berberis (Vulgaris)?
There are some delicious Persian dishes with Berberis (Zereshk) and rice.

[Reformed-Redan]

This:

Berberine, an alkaloid isolated from Berberis aristata Linn. has been used in the Indian system of medicines as a stomachic, bitter tonic, antiamoebic and also in the treatment of oriental sores. Evidences have demonstrated that berberine possesses central nervous system activities, particularly the ability to inhibit monoamine oxidase-A, an enzyme involved in the degradation of norepinephrine and serotonin (5-HT). With this background, the present study was carried out to elucidate the antidepressant-like effect of berberine chloride in different behavioural paradigms of despair. Berberine (5, 10, 20 mg/kg, i.p.) inhibited the immobility period in mice in both forced swim and tail-suspension test, however, the effect was not dose-dependent. Berberine (5 and 10 mg/kg, i.p.) also reversed the reserpine-induced behavioral despair. Berberine (5 mg/kg, i.p.) enhanced the anti-immobility effect of subeffective doses of various typical but not atypical antidepressant drugs in forced swim test. Berberine (5 mg/kg, i.p.) following its acute administration in mice resulted in increased levels of norepinephrine (31%), serotonin (47%) and dopamine (31%) in the whole brain. Chronic administration of berberine (5 mg/kg, i.p.) for 15 days significantly increased the levels of norepinephrine (29%), serotonin (19%) as well as dopamine (52%) but at higher dose (10 mg/kg, i.p.), there was no change in the norepinephrine (12%) levels but a significant increase in the serotonin (53%) and dopamine (31%) levels was found. The antidepressant-like effect of berberine (5 mg/kg, i.p.) in forced swim test was prevented by pretreatment with l-arginine (750 mg/kg, i.p.) or sildenafil (5 mg/kg, i.p.). On the contrary, pretreatment of mice with 7-nitroindazole (7-NI) (25 mg/kg, i.p.) or methylene blue (10 mg/kg, i.p.) potentiated the effect of berberine (2 mg/kg, i.p.) in the forced swim test. Pretreatment of mice with (+)-pentazocine (2.5 mg/kg, i.p.), a high-affinity sigma1 receptor agonist, produced synergism with subeffective dose of berberine (2 mg/kg, i.p.). Pretreatment with various sigma receptor antagonists viz. progesterone (10 mg/kg, s.c.), rimcazole (5 mg/kg, i.p.) and N-[2-(3,4-dichlorophenyl)ethyl]-N-methyl-2-(dimethylamino)ethylamine (BD1047; 1 mg/kg, i.p.) reversed the anti-immobility effects of berberine (5 mg/kg, i.p.). Berberine at lower dose did not affect the locomotor activity and barbiturate-induced sleep time. It produced mild hypothermic action in rats and displayed analgesic effect in mice. Taken together, theses findings demonstrate that berberine exerted antidepressant-like effect in various behavioural paradigms of despair possibly by modulating brain biogenic amines (norepinephrine, serotonin and dopamine). Further, nitric oxide pathway and/or sigma receptors are involved in mediating its antidepressant-like activity in mouse forced swim test.

[nito]

anyone having any success with this?

[gizmobrain]

I'd like to give it a shot. Anyone have a recommendation for a quality source? The local health food has oregon grape and goldenseal capsules, but neither are standardized, so I don't know how much they would contain.

Is an isolate recommended over a whole herb?

Edited by zrbarnes, 16 March 2012 - 03:19 AM.

[ta5]

I've been taking it for 7 days now. I got the 97% powder from BAC. After a couple days I upped the dose to nearly 3 grams/day. I've been taking 1/4 tsp in the morning (no food), 1/2 tsp for lunch and dinner, and 1/4 tsp before bed (no food). These are rounded teaspoons.

I can't say I've noticed anything for sure. But, I plan to keep taking it. I will probably drop the dose down to 1 to 2 grams at some point. It was on my list of things to add for many years now, for it's other benefits, but I never got around to it.

Warning:

In powder form, it tastes awful. I take a lot of things in powder form that taste bad. I can handle any bad taste for the few seconds it takes to drink it down. I don't care. The problem with this stuff is, unless you eat something after, the taste never goes away. Water doesn't wash it down. Maybe something else would, I don't know. When I take it before bed with other powder, and even though I brush my teeth after, I STILL taste it, all the way to morning. It's really bad. You need to take it encapsulated or with food. I would consider pills, but I don't see any that are as concentrated as this stuff. I might take it only with food. I'm hoping I can get used to a lower dose, but I doubt it. I want to stay at this high dose for awhile though to see what effects it has.

[gizmobrain]

I can only imagine that the taste would be awful (ammonium salt alkaloid).

I am interested in stacking a PREP inhibitor with PDE4 inhibitors. I'm also interested to know what would happen when PREP and PDE4 inhibitors are stacked with Forskolin (a cAMP increaser), and with the uridine, cdp-choline, and omega-3 combo that everyone is talking about. Add piracetam, calcium, magnesium l-threonate, methylcobolamin, methylfolate, potassium, CoQ10, BioPQQ, Rhodiola, and l-glutamic acid, and I realize how I'm never going to be able to accurately test all these things.

Edited by zrbarnes, 16 March 2012 - 09:10 AM.

[Lufega]

I've been taking it for 7 days now. I got the 97% powder from BAC. After a couple days I upped the dose to nearly 3 grams/day. I've been taking 1/4 tsp in the morning (no food), 1/2 tsp for lunch and dinner, and 1/4 tsp before bed (no food). These are rounded teaspoons.

I can't say I've noticed anything for sure. But, I plan to keep taking it. I will probably drop the dose down to 1 to 2 grams at some point. It was on my list of things to add for many years now, for it's other benefits, but I never got around to it.

I am using berberine as berberine sulfate and some studies I've read also use this form. I wonder if that has something to do with it ?

I can only imagine that the taste would be awful (ammonium salt alkaloid).

I am interested in stacking a PREP inhibitor with PDE4 inhibitors. I'm also interested to know what would happen when PREP and PDE4 inhibitors are stacked with Forskolin (a cAMP increaser), and with the uridine, cdp-choline, and omega-3 combo that everyone is talking about. Add piracetam, calcium, magnesium l-threonate, methylcobolamin, methylfolate, potassium, CoQ10, BioPQQ, Rhodiola, and l-glutamic acid, and I realize how I'm never going to be able to accurately test all these things.

From your list, I have forskolin, uridine, omega 3, pantothenic acid ( as an acetylcholine booster), but I also have some alpha GPC handy, calcium, mag. threonate, potassium bicarb. I'm also finishing up some ephedrine with caffeine. For me, the effect of berberine is unmistakable. I've stacked it with ephedrine, caffeine, forskolin, and the uridine stack and it's just too strong. It feels like I'm ramped up on adderall but the cognitive enhancement is awsome. I'm trying to add a few things at a time to see what effect they have and so far, my results are positive. Once I finish the ephedrine, I will add the magnesium threonate. I'm really curious about how these will interact together.

[Lufega]

I used a standalone berberine supplement once before and I didn't notice any cognitive effect at all. However, I also wasn't very consistent with it but I do recall how it made me feel very ill. I've also used coptis chinensis and noticed nothing at all I'm not sure if the berberine was HCL or sulfate. What I'm using now, also has artemissinin, black walnut hull and Citrus Seed Extract so I wonder if any of these ingredients is also having some effect. I've used citrus seed before and noticed noticed. However, I do recall using a liquid black walnut extract and noticing some sort of mental boost. I could simply continue to use this formula, but there is some concern regarding the long term use of artemisinin.

[gamesguru]

Berberine is also good for the intestines, and for infections. It is especially helpful to mucous membranes.

Berberine and related alkaloids may be anti-dopaminergic, and I think there is a controversy with regard to the findings of redan's study.


See this study: http://www.ncbi.nlm....?tool=pmcentrez.
From wikipedia:

Other studies have shown berberine to increase noradrenaline and serotonin levels in the brain (rats) while inhibiting dopaminergic activity.^[94][95]

[Reformed-Redan]

Yeah, looks like some sort of plant version of Nardil or whatnot.

[jolly]

Will Block advocates it over Metformin for the glucose impact. - http://www.life-enha...ate.asp?ID=2439

[gizmobrain]

Any hypothesis on the result of Berberine Sulfate (400mg/day) + low dosage of Adderall (5-10mg/day) + low dosage of Selegiline (5-10mg/day)?

It seems to balance out the negative effects on my mood from Adderall, but I'm wondering about toxicity (both liver and brain).

Edited by zrbarnes, 01 April 2012 - 09:52 PM.

[dear mrclock]

any continuety of this ?

[anon2042]

I've been on 200mg berberine (berbercap) twice a day for almost a month for an infection, and while I was happy to learn of the possible mental health benefits, I haven't noticed a thing.

[zorba990]

Will Block advocates it over Metformin for the glucose impact. - http://www.life-enha...ate.asp?ID=2439

Nice. I've recommended this to my brother (Type II diabetic).
http://www.iherb.com...ggie-Caps/46113

[gizmobrain]

Baicalin + Berberine seems to give me a pretty awesome mood for a few hours. Clear headed and social.

The only time I've done this has been stacked on other supps, so I'm not sure how well it works by itself, nor how often you could get it to work without tolerance setting in. But since both are Prolyl endopeptidase (PREP), they should both have nootropic and antidepressant properties.

Edited by zrbarnes, 27 October 2012 - 01:09 AM.

[ta5]

I was taking 1/2 tsp lunch and dinner for a couple months. I figured out it was making me wake up early with a high heart rate, like I had a bad or exciting dream, like being in a fight or being chased. But, I didn't usually remember the dream if I had one, except for a few times. Mostly I would wake up and think, "why am I awake and why am I so charged?" It was not clear. It was practically every morning after I had been taking it for several weeks. Presumably from the increased catecholamines. It wasn't horrible, and I could usually get back to sleep. But, that's not a good way to wake up and I wasn't getting a full night's rest.

The morning insomnia stopped when I stopped taking it. I'm sleeping normally again.

It seems to act like a stimulant as the study posted above suggests. But, an odd stimulant. The way I noticed the effect seems unusual. I maybe noticed a very mild stimulant effect during the day, but had no trouble getting to sleep and sleeping most of the night.

I can see it being helpful for some people who want more stimulation.

I'm guessing the half-life is too long to prevent the insomnia by only taking it early in the day. I plan to take it again at a much lower dose and see how it goes.

Rhodiola may have a similar effect on me.

FWIW, that was my experience so far.

[deeptrance]

Anyone interested in berberine should read this excellent Examine article about the stuff:
http://examine.com/s...e/#summary_full

It seems to act like a stimulant as the study posted above suggests. But, an odd stimulant. The way I noticed the effect seems unusual. I maybe noticed a very mild stimulant effect during the day, but had no trouble getting to sleep and sleeping most of the night.

I'm guessing the half-life is too long to prevent the insomnia by only taking it early in the day. I plan to take it again at a much lower dose and see how it goes.

The half-life is 3 to 4 hours. And yes, I think most people find it a bit stimulating and it's best not to take in the evening for those of us who have the least bit of trouble with sleep. A lot of the herbal "stimulants" are useful in regulating sleep-wake cycles through adaptogenic means, such as regulation of hormones, especially cortisol. It's common for people in modern times, with our evolutionarily maladaptive lifestyles and drug/alcohol use, to have whacked out cortisol levels that are too high at some times, too low at others, and too fast to rise and fall. The adaptogens help level that effect, so rhodiola (which you mentioned as having similar effect) would fall into that category as it is known as one of the quintessential adaptogens.

I've been on 200mg berberine (berbercap) twice a day for almost a month for an infection, and while I was happy to learn of the possible mental health benefits, I haven't noticed a thing.

That's a very low dose, and berberine is ineffective at entering the bloodstream unless taken with a p-glycoprotein inhibitor. P-gp is involved in the transport and inhibition of substances through the gut and into the blood. There are many p-gp inhibitors among herbal medicines, while other substances may be substrates of p-gp that need it to be present as a transporter or may need it to be inhibited in order to be absorbed efficiently, and still other compounds that are p-gp enhancers (releasers?) I list a few good p-gp inhibitors below. Keep in mind, berberine needs p-gp to be inhibited, and in a twist of good fortune it happens that many herbal inhibitors exhibit complementary effects with berberine for other purposes.

Will Block advocates it over Metformin for the glucose impact. - http://www.life-enha...ate.asp?ID=2439

My original reason for taking berberine was to prevent blood sugar spikes and crashes. I created the following formula:
Serving size = 2 capsules, amount per serving:
300 mg berberine (for hypoglycemic effect and more)
200 mg fenugreek 50% extract (hypoglycemic effect and more)
130 mg jiaogulan 4:1 extract (a trivial amount but jiaogulan is higher in ginsenosides than panax ginseng)
150 mg cayenne (p-glycoprotein inhibitor, aids in absorption of many substances, hypoglycemic effect)
120 mg schisandra 9% extract (p-glycoprotein inhibitor, potent adaptogen)
170 mg Green tea extract 50% EGCG (p-gp inhibitor, hypoglycemic effect, many other benefits)
160 mg Alpha-lipoic acid (potent mitochondrial antioxidant, helps offset a potential effect of berberine)

I've been taking this for about a year, and so have my roommate and my sister. It's a very useful blend for the blood sugar effect and for a slight mood lift along with helping generate sustained energy levels for a several hours. Nothing overwhelming but we're all sold on it. Doses are all on the low-safe side, it would probably be fine to take 3 capsules up to 3 times a day.

My biggest concern about berberine is its reputation as a bacteriocidal maniac. It worries me that I could be damaging the balance of my intestinal bacteria by taking berberine every day before breakfast and lunch, that it could be interfering with proper digestion and intestinal health. If anyone has an opinion on this, or a good reference for more discussion, I'd welcome it.

Edited by deeptrance, 08 June 2013 - 08:58 PM.

[Raptor87]

How would this stack with curcumin?

[penisbreath]

Berberine & OCD:

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22890212

I am using berberine as berberine sulfate and some studies I've read also use this form. I wonder if that has something to do with it ?

how many caps of the tribiotic product are taking a day? :>

[Lufega]

i tried using berberine again. I used it consistently for a couple of months. I noticed that it reduced my fasting BG from the high 90's to about 74. It also helped me lose about 20 lbs. In that respect, it was awsome. However, the lowered dopamine was obvious for me and it did decrease my muscle mass as well. However, this only made worse some problems I already have in that department. In fact, I felt like my tendons were weakening and I was pulling things all the time. For that reason, i stopped using it.

I recommended it to someone who is diabetic and after a couple of months of using two capsules a day, her A1C normalized and she lost weight.

Overall, I think it's a great supplement and I would definitely recommend it for short-term use.

[deeptrance]

However, the lowered dopamine was obvious for me and it did decrease my muscle mass as well. However, this only made worse some problems I already have in that department. In fact, I felt like my tendons were weakening and I was pulling things all the time. For that reason, i stopped using it.

Have you thought about using it in combination with dopaminergic agents? I take a lot of herbs and supplements that tend to raise dopamine levels and transmission (e.g., precursors, weak reversible MAO inhibitors, agonists) and I also take berberine at 300 mg 3x/day. I have had no problems such as you described. In fact I wasn't even aware of berberine lowering dopamine until I saw your post, and now I'm kind of glad that I've been taking it because there are days when I feel like I'm overdoing the dopamine so maybe it would have been even worse without the berb.

My dopaminergics (don't yell at me for the overkill, I know I'm a fool):
mucuna pruriens 4:1 extract: 2-3 grams/day
d,l-phenylalanine: 1-2 grams/day
rasagiline: half a mg once every few days
n-acetyl-l-cysteine: