19 replies to this topic

[stephen_b]

I thought this might be fun to discuss: Serotonin: The Misery Hormone.

[LazarusMan]

I'm not getting the quote related to LSD as an "Anti-serotonin agent". If anything LSD owes its actions to Serotonin... Anyone care to explain?

[kevinseven11]

LSD long termly can reduce 5htp receptors I believe.

[earcaraxe]

It's definitely true that most serotonin is produced in the gut. As far as calling LSD an anti-serotonin agent, that's simply not true. In fact, take a look at people who use MDMA. After the serotonin is released, the mind suffers from low serotonin and damage to receptors, and many people experience depression following the incident. I think that this article is pretty much bogus and incorrect.

[Ark]

LSD is good for the mind, MDMA is bad don't compare the two.

[LazarusMan]

LSD is good for the mind, MDMA is bad don't compare the two.

Based on some reason PTSD studies, at therapeutic doses even MDMA can be good for the mind.

[Ark]

I disagree, PTSD can be increased by MDMA.

Since MDMA causes clipping on 5-ht recptors and axons you can argue that it causes OCD.

[LazarusMan]

I disagree, PTSD can be increased by MDMA.

Since MDMA causes clipping on 5-ht recptors and axons you can argue that it causes OCD.

Sorry but can you point to a source on MDMA increasing PTSD? This says otherwise: http://www.scienceda...00719082927.htm

[Ark]

I disagree, PTSD can be increased by MDMA.

Since MDMA causes clipping on 5-ht recptors and axons you can argue that it causes OCD.

Sorry but can you point to a source on MDMA increasing PTSD? This says otherwise: http://www.scienceda...00719082927.htm

MDMA increases arousal by increasing release of endogenous norepinephrine and can worsen PTSD symptoms.

[LazarusMan]

Theoretically caffeine could worsen PTSD symptoms... MDMA has a much higher affinity for serotonin than dopamine and norepinephrine and had been demonstrated to help PTSD patients previously unresponsive to any other forms of treatment. The actions of MDMA on the brain are complex and not completely understood. There is also a big release of oxytocin which is believed to be behind some of the entheogenic affects of MDMA. Just because MDMA can increase endogenous norepinephrine doesn't automatically mean it makes PTSD worse. The studies showed all patients showing improvement over the placebo group to some extent. If you can show me an example of PTSD worsening due to MDMA I might be more apt to agree.

[manic_racetam]

"The misrepresentations about LSD, as a powerful antiserotonin agent, allowed a set of cultural stereotypes about serotonin to be established. Misconceptions about serotonin and melatonin and tryptophan, which are metabolically interrelated, have persisted, and it seems that the drug industry has exploited these mistakes to promote the “new generation” of psychoactive drugs as activators of serotonin responses. If LSD makes people go berserk, as the government claimed, then a product to amplify the effects of serotonin should make people sane."

The LSD decreasing serotonin topic is coming from the article the OP linked to...

But this is interesting though. One withdrawal symptom I've seen listed for stablon (tianeptine sodium) is hair-loss. That would make sense because tianeptine reduces synaptic serotonin levels, and an abrupt discontinuing of it would probably result in a central rebound of serotonin. And if the implications of this article are correct, then the increase in serotonin would be causing the hair-loss...

This video from the article reiterates the authors hypothesis

Edited by manic_racetam, 11 February 2012 - 06:43 PM.

[manic_racetam]

It's always scary to realize how much big pharma seems to be based on bad science....

[sam7777]

I tried to make this argument and ultimately walked away confused. I am not sure what LSD does, but I was pretty darn sure it was pro-serotonergic. Ray Peat goes on quite a bit about how aweful serotonin is, so if you want to check into that it makes some arguments. My point is that at a bare minimum too little serotonin or too much in the wrong area causes issues, and that serotonin is involved a whole, whole bunch in the periphereal nervous system. And I am fairly terrified of SSRI, and I do not know why anyone would take them.

[manic_racetam]

I tried to make this argument and ultimately walked away confused. I am not sure what LSD does, but I was pretty darn sure it was pro-serotonergic. Ray Peat goes on quite a bit about how aweful serotonin is, so if you want to check into that it makes some arguments. My point is that at a bare minimum too little serotonin or too much in the wrong area causes issues, and that serotonin is involved a whole, whole bunch in the periphereal nervous system. And I am fairly terrified of SSRI, and I do not know why anyone would take them.

From memory LSD specifically works on the 5HT2a receptors. So it's a very specific kind of serotonin receptor. I was thinking about this though, and if it's true that serotonin is the "misery hormone" then why does MDMA have such a euphoric effect? I always wondered about that anyway though. Why does MDMA have such a euphoric effect when SSRI's seem to have an emotional blunting effect. I also noticed emotional blunting when taking (probably dangerously) high doses of 5HTP. MDMA must release serotonin in very specific brain areas or something? and it's just the central effects of too much serotonin that lead to "misery"?

A bit of gray area in my understanding here.

[LazarusMan]

I tried to make this argument and ultimately walked away confused. I am not sure what LSD does, but I was pretty darn sure it was pro-serotonergic. Ray Peat goes on quite a bit about how aweful serotonin is, so if you want to check into that it makes some arguments. My point is that at a bare minimum too little serotonin or too much in the wrong area causes issues, and that serotonin is involved a whole, whole bunch in the periphereal nervous system. And I am fairly terrified of SSRI, and I do not know why anyone would take them.

From memory LSD specifically works on the 5HT2a receptors. So it's a very specific kind of serotonin receptor. I was thinking about this though, and if it's true that serotonin is the "misery hormone" then why does MDMA have such a euphoric effect? I always wondered about that anyway though. Why does MDMA have such a euphoric effect when SSRI's seem to have an emotional blunting effect. I also noticed emotional blunting when taking (probably dangerously) high doses of 5HTP. MDMA must release serotonin in very specific brain areas or something? and it's just the central effects of too much serotonin that lead to "misery"?

A bit of gray area in my understanding here.

It may have to do with the unique combination of effects including the metabolites and oxytocin. Also MDMA is an SSRA which I'm guessing may have significantly different effect than an SSRI.

[hippocampus]

LSD (and similar drugs) is a superagonist of 5HT-2A (serotonin is just agonist), so it afect mGluR2 metabotropic receptors too.
http://neuroskeptic....ale-of-two.html

[ta5]

There's an easy counter-argument for his hair loss theory. SSRIs cause diffuse loss, not male pattern loss. They are different problems.

[rwac]

The counter-counter-argument for that is that SSRIs are not really inhibiting serotonin selectively, otherwise you would see effects much quicker than the 4-8 weeks that it currently does. So the theory behind it has holes.

[Adaptogen]

Daily doses of LSD and psilocybin reduced numbers of 5HT2 receptors in rat brain. (Buckholtz et al. 1990)

http://www.maps.org/...lo/psilo_ib.pdf

[medievil]

Daily doses of LSD and psilocybin reduced numbers of 5HT2 receptors in rat brain. (Buckholtz et al. 1990)

http://www.maps.org/...lo/psilo_ib.pdf

Does this refer to recreational doses?

In therapeutic doses there definatly is no tolerance occuring at all wich indicates that the sero activation takes place chronically and also that it isnt a misery hormone (lol who came up with that).