6 replies to this topic

[chroncile]

How does this stack look to you? Is it safe to use all of these supplements?

Jarrow Forumlas Ashwagandha
Now Foods Panax Ginseng
Now Foods Maca
Now Foods Rhodiola
Doctor's Best Extra Strength Ginkgo

Life Extension Two Per Day Tablets Multivitamin
Fish Oil
Now Foods Melatonin

Smart Powders Aniracetam
Creatine Monohydrate
Now Foods Iron

Also, when's the best time to take each supplement? Here's what I had in mind:

Morning:

• Ginseng
• Maca
• Rhodiola
• Ginkgo
• Aniracetam
• Fish Oil

Evening:

• Fish Oil
• Multivitamin
• Iron

Night:

• Ashwagandha
• Melatonin
• Creatine

I plan on taking aniracetam every other day because I read somewhere that this way, one does not develop tolerance to ampakines.

I also have some piracetam and choline bitartrate, but I don't know if I should add piracetam to the regime or not. I'm not adding choline to the stack because choline worsened my depression when I took it in the past.

[Lufega]

Do you already own all these or you're planning to buy them ? I would probably start with one thing at a time. Give it a couple of weeks, then consider something else. I can't imagine how all that stuff, together, would make you feel.

[chroncile]

I'm planning on buying most of them. I already own creatine monohydrate, piracetam, LEF multivitamin, fish oil and melatonin. One thing to note is that I was prescribed Wellbutrin and it was working very well for me. It improved my motivation, mood and among other things, my concentration. I stopped taking it 2 days ago because I recently found out that it causes SH-5YSY cells to die.

Bupropion' class='bbc_url' title='External link' rel='nofollow external'>http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21354251']Bupropion is an atypical antidepressant that is currently used as a smoking cessation aid. Bupropion interferes with monoamine reuptake and is potentially neurotoxic, although this is yet to be confirmed. In this study, we evaluated the cytotoxicity of bupropion using SH-SY5Y human catecholaminergic cells as the in vitro model. Exposure of the cells to bupropion for 24h reduced their viability in a concentration-dependent manner. Treatment of the cells with a toxic concentration of bupropion (100μg/mL) induced the phosphorylation of eukaryotic initiation factor alpha (EIF-2α), c-JUN N-terminal kinase (JNK), and p38 mitogen-activated protein kinase (MAPK) within 1h, which later declined to baseline levels. However, bupropion failed to splice X-box binding protein 1 (XBP1) mRNA. Bupropion caused mitochondrial cytochrome c release and activated caspases 9, 8, and 3 in a time-dependent manner. The reduction in cell viability was significantly inhibited by a caspase 3 inhibitor. Bupropion also induced the mRNA expression of the death receptors DR4 (TRAILR1) and DR5 (TRAILR2). However, bupropion did not increase the level of cellular oxidative stress. Taken together, our data indicate that bupropion activates caspase 3 through the induction of endoplasmic reticulum stress responses and activation of JNK, and consequently induces apoptotic cell death in SH-SY5Y cells.

→ source (external link)

It's sad, really. The drug was so helpful with my depression.

Does anybody know if the cells can get back to baseline if bupropion is discontinued?

On another note, bupropion also antagonizes nicotinic acetylcholine receptors in the brain and Wikipedia mentions that chronic use of antagonists causes neuronal death.

Because' class='bbc_url' title='External link' rel='nofollow external'>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Receptor_antagonist']Because antagonists often disrupt the normal connectivity between neurons, their long-term, chronic use has been linked to neuronal death and very strong antagonists can be considered to be toxic.

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[Now]

Don't take extra iron. Many multivitamins already contain enough/too much iron, especially for men. Or do you have a proven (blood test) shortage?

[chroncile]

My multivitamin doesn't contain any iron. It's the LEF Two-Per-Day tablets multivitamin. I just recently got a blood test, but I don't think my doctor checked my vitamin levels. All he said was my sugar levels were a little elevated, but that's only because I ate breakfast before going to him; I wasn't expecting a blood work right there and then.

Is it bad to take iron everyday? Should I take it once a week only? What do you think?

Also, I took out ginkgo because I found out that it's a vasodilator. I'm also thinking of adding bacopa to the stack, but I read on Wikipedia that it lowers sperm count.

Bacopa monnieri (Brahmi) has been reported to reversibly suppress spermatogenesis and fertility in male mice at a dose of 250 mg/kg body weight/day for 28 and 56 days. Parameters of motility, viability, morphology, and number of spermatozoa in cauda epididymidis returned to baseline 56 days after treatment cessation.

→ source (external link)

What does 250 mg/kg for rats translate to for humans?

[Now]

I find it difficult to write a lot of correct English sentences, so I quote some other sources to answer your questions.

My multivitamin doesn't contain any iron. It's the LEF Two-Per-Day tablets multivitamin. I just recently got a blood test, but I don't think my doctor checked my vitamin levels. All he said was my sugar levels were a little elevated, but that's only because I ate breakfast before going to him; I wasn't expecting a blood work right there and then.

Hemoglobin concentration measurement is among the most commonly performed blood tests, usually as part of a complete blood count. For example it is typically tested before or after blood donation. If the concentration is below normal, this is called anemia. Anemia has many different causes, although iron deficiency and its resultant iron deficiency anemia are the most common causes in the Western world.

More info: http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Hemoglobin

Should I take it once a week only? What do you think?

I would say 'no' if you don't have a (tested) deficiency.

Also, I took out ginkgo because I found out that it's a vasodilator. I'm also thinking of adding bacopa to the stack, but I read on Wikipedia that it lowers sperm count.

What's wrong with it's function as a vasodilator?

Bacopa' class='bbc_url' title='External link' rel='nofollow external'>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacopa_monnieri#Toxicity']Bacopa monnieri (Brahmi) has been reported to reversibly suppress spermatogenesis and fertility in male mice at a dose of 250 mg/kg body weight/day for 28 and 56 days. Parameters of motility, viability, morphology, and number of spermatozoa in cauda epididymidis returned to baseline 56 days after treatment cessation.

→ source (external link)

What does 250 mg/kg for rats translate to for humans?

I can't tell, but according to this study it is reversible after 56 days.

In' class='bbc_url' title='External link' rel='nofollow external'>http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19041444']In Brahmi-treated males, libido remained unaffected, but fertility was notably suppressed. The alterations caused in the above reproductive endpoints by the plant extract were reversible, and by 56 days of treatment withdrawal, the parameters recovered to control levels.

→ source (external link)

[atomheartmother69]

Hey...If you responded to Wellbutrin but you are worried about ill affects but would not mine trying another antidepressant I would suggest to your MD Remeron. It will make you a zombie the first 2 weeks but if you can get to 45mgs a day you may greatly feel better. it tends to be sedating at low doses and activating at 45 to 60mg Worked well for me but you gotta watch weight gain cause your food bill may go up initially. Good for anxiety too. This drug stops the mechanism in the brain that stops the release of noradrenalin theraby increasing its activity. Wellbutrin increases noradrenalin and dopamine. To increase dopamine naturally there are tons of ideas but I would say based on your porposed stack:
1) Panax Ginseng min 7% ginsenosides 2 a day. Possible maoi properties.
2) Rhodiola 500mg twicw a day standardized to 3% rosavins 1% salidrosides Possible maoi properties
3) Quercetin 500mg twice a day. confirmed maoi properties


4) N-acetyl-tyrosine 600mg twice a day before a meal with p-5-p pyridoxal-5-phosphate 50mg at the same time. Precursors to dopamine formation
5) stick with the Life Extension multi but no extra iron for many reasons including possible effect on fluctuating dopamine levels
Personally I would leave it here. I agree you don't want to go overboard with this so I would start with 1/2 of this stack for 2 weeks. However I believe in synergy and sometimes
just trying one thing at a time doesn't get the results. Theoretically synergy amongst drugs and supplements has been found most most powerful by the ancients healers.
Good luck Thomas