49 replies to this topic

[Hope47]

I have been taking melatonin for the seven days at 1.5mg.On the seventh day,it stopped working.Should i up my dose.I have trouble sleeping.

[Tomas E]

I would recommend taking it 5 days per week , that is Mon-Fri or even Mon-Thur, and then take some days off. That is atleast what I do.

[hippocampus]

you probably don't need that high dose, try lower dose. dissolve it under the tongue (sublingually). I didn't develop tolerance to its effects and I use it 5-6 days a week for few months, although I have some trouble sleeping when I don't use it.

[Denjin]

Wow how can you take that? I have 1mg pills and if I take them I'm really groggy as hell the next day. Currently just put probably .300mg under my tongue on the nights I use it which is quite sporadic.

[hamishm00]

I'I was taking 30mgs for many years, no issues - many benefits. 7.5mg, 2.5mg sublingual, 5mg normal intake seems to be the most appropriate dose right now.

[Tomas E]

Im taking on a normal basis 3mg 5times per week, sometimes I up it to 6mg if I cant fall asleep.

[Kunal Chatkara]

Those doses seem relatively high, considering that we naturally excrete melatonin in sustained amounts of micrograms. I actually remember reading somewhere that taking more than 5g may actually result in the opposite of desired effect.(Im trying to find the exact site I read this, to source.) Then again each person's brain chemistry does vary and what works for you may produce drastically different results in someone else.

[niner]

What Kunal said. A lot of people find that with melatonin, less is more. I have a big bottle of 3mg tablets that I split four ways so that I'm taking ~750mcg. I've been doing this for years, and haven't had a problem with tolerance, or with withdrawal on days that I don't use it. I use it most days.

[hamishm00]

www.morelife.org regimen is currently at 30mg per day.

[niner]

www.morelife.org regimen is currently at 30mg per day.

Yikes. Paul's exploring the outer reaches there... The last time I looked, he had a rather Kurzweil-esque regimen.

[Tomas E]

I know that those doses are high , but as I have sleeping problems they have helped me out alot, so I rather take them and get some quality sleep then not, and get 2-3hours if even that. Then again I have not split em up by four and see if that also helps.

[Hope47]

Sorry for bumping this but,i don't want to be on melatonin anymore.I am continuously using it for the past 20 days with varying doses and it helped me a lot but,i feel groggy next day.Its 1.30 AM here and I am still awake even after going to bed at 11pm.Help me!

[niner]

Sorry for bumping this but,i don't want to be on melatonin anymore.I am continuously using it for the past 20 days with varying doses and it helped me a lot but,i feel groggy next day.Its 1.30 AM here and I am still awake even after going to bed at 11pm.Help me!

What doses are you using? I would recommend something less than a milligram.

[Kunal Chatkara]

Sorry for bumping this but,i don't want to be on melatonin anymore.I am continuously using it for the past 20 days with varying doses and it helped me a lot but,i feel groggy next day.Its 1.30 AM here and I am still awake even after going to bed at 11pm.Help me!

What doses are you using? I would recommend something less than a milligram.

I second that. I've been taking chewable 500mcg tabs. No morning grogginess, tastes good and you can dissolve em sublingually if you want. Considering that it's a relatively low dose, it seems to work more effectively that way.

[maxwatt]

Studies of blood levels from various doses of melatonin showed that 300 to 700 mcg of melatonin most closely mimicked the natural levels of melatonin over time during sleep. One company (Sundown) has patented the 300 mcg dose, and sell sublingual tablets at that dose. I find one or two of these give very natural sleep, Over a milligram, and one goes to sleep fast, wakes up early after a few hours even in the middle of the night and one feels groggy the next day. With melatonin less is more.

Edited by maxwatt, 31 March 2012 - 03:00 AM.

[hyper_ventriloquism]

Even though I rarely use it, I've found ~500 mcgs to be very effective. I prefer liquid melatonin as I can easily adjust the dose and take it sublingually. Source Naturals has a liquid melatonin that contains approx. 1mg per 1ml (about 30 drops).

I know some people that give their little kids 3mg every night...crazy. I've tried to talk them out of it, but their more worried about themselves than their kids.

[Hope47]

Thanks for the reply guys.The dosage that is effective for me is 1.5 gm.Anything less than 1.5gm makes me half asleep.I want to sleep without melatonin.How long will the withdrawal effects last.

[Wolf]

Is sustained release melatonin any more effective than regular melatonin? I've tried Schiff's 3 mg melatonin, which may have made me fall asleep a bit faster, but didn't improve sleep any. I think I'll try cutting up the tablets and try a much smaller dose. Though I don't actually have much of a problem falling asleep and can sleep 8 hours straight just fine. I just wake up really tired and feel tired throughout the day.

[natro]

I've been taking 3mg for a while now. I can't say I had major side effects but I do feel I kinda depend on it. After reading this thread a few days ago I cut my melatonin to 1mg doses and it seems to have helped me sleep still so definitely gonna stick with smaller doses now

Some nights I would wake up in the middle of the night but I'm not sure if it's because of melatonin or because I drank the previous night (I find after a few nights of moderate drinking my sleep patterns get messed up even if I go to bed at around the same time)

Oh and I'm also wondering about the substained melatonin release like Wolf... Last time I bought some I opted not to try it because I figured sustained released would make going to sleep slower.

Edited by natro, 31 March 2012 - 08:05 AM.

[YanaRay]

I normally take 3mg instant release melatonin 5-6 days a week. I know it's too much to actually switch the brain into a sleep mode, but I'm generally interested in melatonin as there is more to this substance than just its sleep-inducing properties.

That's a link to a full-text article about melatonin:
http://www.ncbi.nlm....16/?tool=pubmed

Since childhood I've had really pronounced problems with vivid dreams, they were rather unrelated to life and so interesting and exciting that they somehow grabbed and sucked my attention totally. As a consequence, my real life looked a bit zombie-like as it couldn't compete with those wild dreams (I suppose). When I became an adult it started to become more of a problem, leading to lack of energy, constant fatigue and periods of depression - just basically being half-asleep when I should be wide awake and enjoying a productive life. I blamed many other things for my state of mind, including non-existent health problems, stress etc, but then one day I thought it might be excessive dreaming that causes the problem.

So I thought maybe melatonin may help to truly switch me off and improve my sleep.
What I've found is actually a 3mg dose makes me drowsy and calm maybe 15 mins after I take it, then I fall asleep very easily without thoughts running through my head and a kind of excitement growing inside (that was a problem, looked like I was addicted to dreaming, like it was a drug). Then I sleep 7-8 hours without any problems. I still dream a lot, every night, but I seem to be slightly detached from those dreams, with a kind of free-flowing attention, not an over-focused and obsessive one. That's a HUGE change.
I wake up slightly groggy but after 15-30 mins I'm refreshed and focused, what a change. It still could be better, so I'm willing to try a SR melatonin during weekends first and then we'll see.

I think generally melatonin is slightly overlooked - it is a very interesting substance, widely available as a supplement and cheap to take on a regular basis.

[david ellis]

www.morelife.org regimen is currently at 30mg per day.

I discovered that hamishm00, the previous outlier, probably knows something.

I am noticing some very strong effects, much stronger than I expected.

First, a story about my experience at reducing cortisol levels. I am 74 years old, so probably most of you don't have the aging that I have, so your experiences might be different. I was surprised by the people posting who can feel a 3 mg melatonin tablet, because melatonin pills were a waste of time and money for me.

I was experiencing short sleep, about 6 hours. And it wasn't deep sleep. I decided to fix that by lowering my cortisol levels. First things I did were, reducing the brightness of my computer screen to 25% and going to bed at 9:30. This worked well, and I started sleeping 8 hours interrupted by the usual nightly trip to the toilet. A significant part of the improvement was that my former awakening pattern was to arise fully awakened on ready to go to work(high cortisol level symptom). I don't work, but I still woke up like I did then. A pleasant surprise was that I was able to grab a few more Z's if I wanted too. I am relaxed upon awakening now(cortisol lower).

I read about melatonin being a powerful antioxidant and neuroprotectant. But the pills were just chalk in my stomach, nothing more. So I decided to try dermal melatonin. Pure Bulk made me prove that I knew what a milligram was, so then they sent me a package of powder. I mixed up a dermal cream that had 3 mg in a half gram. The result was great, I slept well, and felt very relaxed. Big thing, dreams returned after no dreams for decades. I am hoping that my sleep will improve more, so that I can experience the sleep that reinforces memory.

I don't take as much as hamishm00, but I have taken 20 mg about two times, 10 mg about 5 times, and 3-6 mg about 20 times.

Here are the effects.

I sleep through the night without having to visit the toilet. It is great to get uninterrupted sleep.

My carpal tunnel symptoms have dramatically improved. I have worn wrist guards every night for over 25 years. Occasional abstaining wearing the wrist guards would wake me up with numbness and pain. Last night, I didn't wear the guards, and the right wrist was completely normal, no numbness. The left wrist was numb, but not enough to wake me, and the numbness was gone in a minute.

Sciatica, I can't strongly say that it helps. But, I have noticed that sciatica is reduced. No strong claims because sciatica comes and goes despite attempts to control, but I am optimistic.

31 ALS patients safely took 300 mg/day for up to two years, so my 20 gram dose is probably safe. I plan to use 3 mg doses most of the time.

This week I worried that I might be dependent on melatonin so I didn't take it one evening. Happily, it only took me 1/2 hour to get to sleep, and the sleep was good. I will continue to check for dependence.

[Nattzor]

Question: Does chronic melatonin supplementation do anything to the amount you produce yourself and what dosage do you produce yourself?

[david ellis]

Question: Does chronic melatonin supplementation do anything to the amount you produce yourself and what dosage do you produce yourself?

Good question. The dosage we produce is low, in the low hundreds of mcg. Another question, did the patients who took 300 mg/day for up to two years suffer reduced endogenous production? Did they suffer from insomnia because their sleep cycle is ruined? The extract doesn't list problems so I don't know. But the extract summarizes this way - "This combination of preclinical effectiveness and proven safety in humans suggests that high-dose melatonin is suitable for clinical trials aimed at neuroprotection through antioxidation in ALS."

[trying2survive]

great article on melatonin: http://tpx.sagepub.c.../6/589.full.pdf

CONCLUSION
Analysis of available data on the effect of melatonin on
longevity supports the hypothesis of the geroprotective effect of melatonin.
...
In adequately designed experiments (50 animals per group), melatonin given
during the night in relatively small doses (2.5–3 mg/kg) delayed the onset of age-related disturbances in estrous function
and increased the survival of the animals.
There are data on the suppressive effect of melatonin on
the development of spontaneous mammary carcinogenesis
and that induced by chemical agents and ionizing radiation
in mice and rats (38, 39, 96), spontaneous endometrial adenocarcinomas in BDII/Han rats (43), colon carcinogenesis
induced by 1,2-dimethylhydrazine in rats (9, 4), DMBAinduced carcinogenesis of the uterine cervix and vagina
in mice (11), and preneoplastic liver lesions induced by
N-nitrosodiethylamine in rats (65). The positive effect of
melatonin in the treatment of advanced cancer patients has
been observed (81).
Thus, melatonin has two faces:it is both a potent geroprotector, anticarcinogen, and inhibitor of tumor growth

in vivo and in vitro, and in some models it may induce tumors and promote tumor growth. There are no contradictions
between data on the carcinogenic and anticarcinogenic potential of melatonin. Some antioxidants, including natural ones
(e.g.,α-tocopherol), have both geroprotector and tumorigenic
potential and could be potent anticarcinogens as well (see
3, 5). The results of administration of melatonin to perimenopausal women are promising (22). At the same time
there are real data on the adverse effects of melatonin. They
were summarized recently (168) as follows: melatonin may
cause infertility, hypothermia, and retinal damage; it reduces
sex drive in males; leads to high blood pressure, diabetes, and
cancer; and it can induce or deepen depression in susceptible
individuals. It was noted that melatonin may be dangerous for
people with cardiovascular risk factors. It should not be taken
by people with immune-system disorders (including severe
allergies), autoimmune diseases (such as rheumatoid arthritis), immunosystem malignancies (e.g., lymphoma), severe
mental illness, or by those taking steroids. Thus, we believe
that further studies and clinical trials are needed to evaluate
both the efficacy and the safety for humans of melatonin—
this is still a very intriguing and two-faced hormone.

[shaggy]

great article on melatonin: http://tpx.sagepub.c.../6/589.full.pdf

CONCLUSION
Analysis of available data on the effect of melatonin on
longevity supports the hypothesis of the geroprotective effect of melatonin.
...
In adequately designed experiments (50 animals per group), melatonin given
during the night in relatively small doses (2.5–3 mg/kg) delayed the onset of age-related disturbances in estrous function
and increased the survival of the animals.
There are data on the suppressive effect of melatonin on
the development of spontaneous mammary carcinogenesis
and that induced by chemical agents and ionizing radiation
in mice and rats (38, 39, 96), spontaneous endometrial adenocarcinomas in BDII/Han rats (43), colon carcinogenesis
induced by 1,2-dimethylhydrazine in rats (9, 4), DMBAinduced carcinogenesis of the uterine cervix and vagina
in mice (11), and preneoplastic liver lesions induced by
N-nitrosodiethylamine in rats (65). The positive effect of
melatonin in the treatment of advanced cancer patients has
been observed (81).
Thus, melatonin has two faces:it is both a potent geroprotector, anticarcinogen, and inhibitor of tumor growth

in vivo and in vitro, and in some models it may induce tumors and promote tumor growth. There are no contradictions
between data on the carcinogenic and anticarcinogenic potential of melatonin. Some antioxidants, including natural ones
(e.g.,α-tocopherol), have both geroprotector and tumorigenic
potential and could be potent anticarcinogens as well (see
3, 5). The results of administration of melatonin to perimenopausal women are promising (22). At the same time
there are real data on the adverse effects of melatonin. They
were summarized recently (168) as follows: melatonin may
cause infertility, hypothermia, and retinal damage; it reduces
sex drive in males; leads to high blood pressure, diabetes, and
cancer; and it can induce or deepen depression in susceptible
individuals. It was noted that melatonin may be dangerous for
people with cardiovascular risk factors. It should not be taken
by people with immune-system disorders (including severe
allergies), autoimmune diseases (such as rheumatoid arthritis), immunosystem malignancies (e.g., lymphoma), severe
mental illness, or by those taking steroids. Thus, we believe
that further studies and clinical trials are needed to evaluate
both the efficacy and the safety for humans of melatonin—
this is still a very intriguing and two-faced hormone.

Not convinced that melatonin is bad for people with cardio-vascular risk factors... Just a quick search here; http://www.ncbi.nlm....ascular disease and you get heaps of evidence supporting its use!

[garcia]

Came across this very recent study by chance. Am wondering what people think. Especially relevant to me as I'm currently taking 10mg a night:

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/23880341

Melatonin elevates apoptosis in human platelets via ROS mediated mitochondrial damage.

Melatonin is a pineal hormone that regulates circadian and seasonal rhythms. The chronobiotic role of melatonin corresponds with a repertoire of pharmacological properties. Besides, it has a wide range of therapeutic applications. However, recent studies have demonstrated its direct interaction with platelets: at physiological concentration it promotes platelet aggregation; on the other hand, at pharmacological doses it raises intracellular Ca²⁺ leading to platelet activation, thrombus formation and cardiovascular disorders. In order to further probe its effects on platelets, the current study targeted platelet apoptosis and melatonin was found to stimulate apoptosis. The mitochondrial pathway of apoptosis was mainly investigated because of its susceptibility to oxidative stress-inducing factors including therapeutic and dietary elements. Melatonin significantly increased the generation of intracellular ROS and Ca²⁺, facilitating mitochondrial membrane depolarization, cytochrome c release, caspase activation, protein phosphorylation and phosphatidylserine externalization. Further, the overall toxicity of melatonin on platelets was confirmed by MTT and lactate dehydrogenase assays. The elevated rate of platelet apoptosis has far reaching consequences including thrombocytopenia. Besides, platelets undergoing apoptosis release microparticles, which fuel thrombus formation and play a significant role in the pathophysiology of a number of diseases. In many parts of the world melatonin is an over-the-counter dietary supplement and alternative medicine. Since, melatonin displays platelet proapoptotic effect at a concentration attainable through therapeutic dosage, the present study sends a warning signal to the chronic use of melatonin as a therapeutic drug and questions its availability without a medical prescription.

What say you?

Edited by garcia, 14 August 2013 - 09:05 PM.

[SieAn]

I say it's just an abstract. You don't know their methods. It seems to be an in vitro study. I am always wary of studies that come to conclusions that aren't just stating facts. This one seems to inject some emotion and assumption into it. I don't like the wording, especially without being able to check their methodology.

In vitro studies and useful for some things, but extrapolating conclusions from them that are this generalized is usually a sign of a bad study.

I might change my mind if I could read the whole thing.

Also, they chose this wording for their abstract, so they are responsible for how this comes across.

[hav]

One of the main criticisms of in vitro studies is that they often employ concentrations that cannot be achieved in vivo. But this one says otherwise in the absract:

Since, melatonin displays platelet proapoptotic effect at a concentration attainable through therapeutic dosage, the present study sends a warning signal to the chronic use of melatonin as a therapeutic drug and questions its availability without a medical prescription.

But they don't say up front what size of dose they're talking about. It might be a dose significantly larger than what's usually recommended or taken. The "warning signal" phraseology sounds alarmist by design and probably intentionally leaves out dosage specifics to induce you into buying the full-text. Or maybe even scoring a panic-news headline in the dog days of Summer when the media has no other drum to beat. Ha, ha... maybe they tried to release this study on the 2 year anniversary of the FDA's Lazy Cake ban.

You might keep an eye on sites like WebMD which might do the responsible thing and warn you of what dosages might actually be dangerous.

Howard

Edited by hav, 25 August 2013 - 10:00 PM.

[hav]

oops...

Edited by hav, 25 August 2013 - 10:00 PM.

[SieAn]

Also, when you test things in vitro, other mechanisms of the body aren't taken into account. This is both good and bad. You want the isolation to see what happens when you limit variables, but you can't make a generalization about something that's been isolated and apply that to the same compound and how it reacts with the entire human body on average.

That's why they have long term, double blind, placebo controlled studies on humans. And even those can be wrong about something, because they didn't take into account certain patterns or variables.

As for melatonin, I've looked up the studies on retina damage, and I suggest you do too. I have problems with their methods and the conclusions they came to, and their lack of a proper control. Plus, they were rat studies. I think they were done to find the outlier information, but you can't take that info and apply it to humans. Plus, all the mice were albino, to maximize the effect of UV.

But the point is, the way they did it, I came away with the impression of "well, no shit there's retina damage". They should try doing the same thing with non-albino mice, with no melatonin.

For summary, they basically kept them in low light for a week, like 50 lux, injecting melatonin into the retina or feeding it to them, and then after 7 days at 50 lux, they put them in a box of 10000 lux or something similar to noon daylight, don't quote me...but they did it for 48 straight hours with no break, and no shade, and these were albino mice.

All studies of retina damage came from these types of experiments.

So when people worry about eye damage and melatonin, I take it with a grain of salt. If you are paranoid, wear shades in bright light. You should be doing that anyways.

So, the larger point I'm making here?

Until you read the full study, and understand their methods and the test scope, there's not much you can take away from the abstract of something in vitro. Sometimes the abstract gives you a bone, and you can get the basics from it, but most times not.