30 replies to this topic

[nanomatrix]

IS there a current list of the top 10 most potent nootropics... outside of "the lab"?

Are there uncontrolled compounds that are more effective that the racetems?

[scottl]

"Are there uncontrolled compounds that are more effective that the racetems? "

There is a zen comic...master and disciple kinda thing.....the disciple is digging in the garden and comes upon a piece of paper with writing which he cannot read. He brings it to the master to translate. When translated the paper says something like:

why are you looking for more information when you don't pay attention to what you already know?

Translation: have you tried all the common nootropics and found the results not sufficient for your needs? I doubt it by your first question and by the fact that this is post one.

I don't know if there is a list of ten most potent nootropics since people react very differently to them. Here is a link to a page with some of the most commonly used nootropics and some suggestions for ways to start with them.

http://www.avantlabs...tal_functioning

I wrote a lot of it although there are parts by cosmos and others

The Edge Effect by Eric Braverman, M.D is highly recommended as a way to start.

[nanomatrix]

Scott,

There is a remote possibilty that you may be assuming facts not in evidence.

I have however referred to your wiki several times... and it's an interesting first shot at answering my question.

[scottl]

"There is a remote possibilty that you may be assuming facts not in evidence."

OK if you already have a regimen and it does not meet your needs, tell us what you are taking and what you desires/needs are.

Oh and I'm not really the person to ask about cutting edge nootropics, there are other people here who would be more appropriate for that. Non-nootripic health promoting supps is my main interest.

Oh and not my wiki...it is Avants...I just helped (well a lot) with that one section

[nanomatrix]

This isn't a thread about stacks. There are plenty of threads on this site as well others for that kind of discussion. This is a market research question about what people consider to be the most effective compounds for improving Cognitive Function.

Piracetam, Aniracetam, Oxiracetam, Pramiracetam, Huperzine, Vasopressin, Centrophenoxine, Idebenone, Deprenyl, Alpha GPC, Caffeine, etc.

[lynx]

ALCAR/R-ALA, Vinpocetine, Galantamine, various stimulants, Aniracetam, Centrophenoxine, Caffeine

Long term cognition ALCAR/R-ALA, NAC, CoQ10, blueberry extract, NtBHA, PBN, memantine, Fish Oil, Fish Oil, Fish Oil, Centrophenoxine, various Cholines

Haven't tried but look forward to Rasagiline, BPAP and more.

[nanomatrix]

What we don't have, is a kind of Scoville Heat Scale for nootropics.
Short of someone developing such a scale, it might be useful if we had a reference compound like caffeine that we could compare other nootropics to. In other words is the effect of "X gms of Piracetam" stronger or weaker than 16oz Caffè Americano?
Everybody's different, but enough of these reports will start to develop a bell curve. [glasses]

[lynx]

The idea of such a scale doesn't make any sense because various nootropics work differently, even among the racetams they affect different receptors.

[nanomatrix]

If the percieved effectiveness of the current crop of nootropics is no different from a cup of coffee, why spend the money?

[lynx]

If the percieved effectiveness of the current crop of nootropics is no different from a cup of coffee, why spend the money?

Who said that?
What is your purpose here?
Have you done any research on any of these compounds?

Edited by lynx, 07 March 2005 - 01:55 AM.

[scottl]

"This is a market research question"

Perhaps that answers the question Lynx.

Oh and I agree with Lynx:

"The idea of such a scale doesn't make any sense"

[enemy]

The idea of a Scoville scale doesn't make any sense in a strict, mathematical way, but it could make sense in a statistical, economic way.

I believe that was the basis of the bell curve remark.

[lemon]

I've been using an extensive stack for quite some time and I have noticed an improvement in alertness, memory, and a general feeling of well being.

It's easy to not recognize these effects because, after all, you're still you. I just remember where I casually lay things down more frequently and I wake up more clear headed and less drowsy. Also I weight lift every morning and I believe exercise is ESSENTIAL.

I'm not at all an advocate of caffeine and I only take it when I drink green tea (which also contains theanine that counteracts those jitters). Unlike caffeine, racetams do not leave you with that "I'm so jacked up but I don't know why" feeling.

Additionally, nootropics act in ways that are neuroprotective. Caffeine just acts as a diuretic and flushes out valuable water soluble vitamins which are detrimental in the long run.

[nanomatrix]

Geez, I thought this thread was dead last Sunday.

Let's see first: Since most Americans use coffee as a cognitive stimulant this is most likely what cognitive nutrients will be compared to... whether we like it or not... it is the defacto standard.

Second if compounds like the racetams are going to make any effective penatration into the retail distribution chain there will need to be some kind of metric to compare the effectiveness.

So if anyone has a better compound to use as a reference comparison we'd all like to hear what it is. [!]

[scottl]

Piracetam does zero for me. For others it is a huge improvement. How do you factor that in? These are not like other products..

If you were the first seller of ice cream in rural...china how would you sell it? They haven't heard of ice cream and don't know what it is. Samples?

[LifeMirage]

scottl Posted on Mar 13, 2005
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Piracetam does zero for me. For others it is a huge improvement. How do you factor that in? These are not like other products..

Piracetam has several effects in your brain, just because you do not see a difference does not mean it is not doing anything or is not worth taking.

nanomatrix Posted on Mar 12, 2005
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Geez, I thought this thread was dead last Sunday.

Let's see first: Since most Americans use coffee as a cognitive stimulant this is most likely what cognitive nutrients will be compared to... whether we like it or not... it is the defacto standard.

Second if compounds like the racetams are going to make any effective penatration into the retail distribution chain there will need to be some kind of metric to compare the effectiveness.

So if anyone has a better compound to use as a reference comparison we'd all like to hear what it is.  

Their are already various way of testing nootropics effects. This subject will be satisfactory covered in my book fyi.

nanomatrix Posted on Mar 6, 2005
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If the percieved effectiveness of the current crop of nootropics is no different from a cup of coffee, why spend the money?

The effects of nootropics are far different from an espresso shot.

lynx Posted on Mar 6, 2005
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The idea of such a scale doesn't make any sense because various nootropics work differently, even among the racetams they affect different receptors.

Scales make perfect sense if you can interpret the data properly. While nootropics do work on different receptors (being one of the many effects in the brain) various testing can accurately measure their effects and compare.

nanomatrix Posted on Mar 6, 2005
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What we don't have, is a kind of Scoville Heat Scale for nootropics.
Short of someone developing such a scale, it might be useful if we had a reference compound like caffeine that we could compare other nootropics to. In other words is the effect of "X gms of Piracetam" stronger or weaker than 16oz Caffè Americano?
Everybody's different, but enough of these reports will start to develop a bell curve.

Concrete answers to this questions will be available in the next few years. But there is enough data to support some conclusions.

lynx Posted on Mar 6, 2005
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ALCAR/R-ALA, Vinpocetine, Galantamine, various stimulants, Aniracetam, Centrophenoxine, Caffeine

Long term cognition ALCAR/R-ALA, NAC, CoQ10, blueberry extract, NtBHA, PBN, memantine, Fish Oil, Fish Oil, Fish Oil, Centrophenoxine, various Cholines

Haven't tried but look forward to Rasagiline, BPAP and more.

Rasagiline is great I would recommend it to everyone when it's available. Memantine however I would not recommend for a healthy person.

[LifeMirage]

On the human and animals studies mostly. I own use and a few others play a hand as well.

[johnmk]

I took memantine (10mg, twice daily) for a while with my prescription of Concerta (methylphenidate) and noticed a pronounced (dare I say profound?) beneficial effect, maybe due to the reversal of tolerance of methylphenidate, or maybe from memantine itself, not sure. It seemed to vanish in about a week though. Not sure if I just got used to it (subjectively) or if the effect itself actually disappeared. In any event, memantine is expensive and I just stopped taking it. I may take 10mg to 20mg once a week though, from what's left, just to see if the theory that it prevents tolerance to CNS stimulants from progressing. Of course, I'm not a double blind placebo controlled trial so take my anecdote with a grain of salt. Why do you believe memantine shouldn't be taken by a healthy person?

[LifeMirage]

Why do you believe memantine shouldn't be taken by a healthy person?

A: It is not a nootropic nor a natural compound.

B: There is not enough studies on healthly people that show a benefit in my opinion. Not study below showed an impairment.

Learn Mem. 2001 Jan-Feb;8(1):20-5.
Effects of pharmacologically induced changes in NMDA-receptor activity on long-term memory in humans.

Rammsayer TH. Georg Elias Mueller Institute for Psychology, University of Gottingen, D-37073 Gottingen, Germany. trammsa@uni-goettingen.de

In a double-blind crossover design, either 30 mg of the noncompetitive NMDA-receptor antagonist memantine or a placebo was administered to 40 healthy male volunteers. Twenty line drawings of objects and 20 photographs of unfamiliar faces were presented on a computer screen. After a retention interval of 80 min, the participants' task was to select the original objects and faces from a set of 80 items. Results were analyzed applying a signal-detection-theory approach. Recognition performance for objects was significantly impaired under memantine as compared to placebo, whereas performance on face recognition was not affected. Findings support the notion of differential effects of NMDA-receptor antagonists on memory functions in humans.

C: In lower doses it very well may proven to have benefits but I don't believe the current research supports it. I recommned using theanine or other compounds that effect the NMDA receptors.



The effect you felt has been studied. The below study basically says Methylphenidate desensitization can be temporary reversed by drugs that work on NMDA like memantine.

Physiol Behav. 2000 Oct 1-15;71(1-2):133-45. Related Articles, Links
NMDA receptor antagonist disrupts acute and chronic effects of methylphenidate.

Yang P, Swann A, Dafny N. Department of Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences, The University of Texas-Houston Medical School, P.O. Box 20708, Houston, TX 77225, USA.

Methylphenidate (MPD) is a drug widely used for treating attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder in children. Because of its extensive consumption and because it has pharmacological stimulant properties similar to amphetamine and cocaine, MPD has the potential of abuse. N-methyl-D-aspartate (NMDA) receptors are suggested to be involved in CNS effects of stimulants, and antagonists of the NMDA receptor can potentially alter the stimulants' effects. Dizocilpine (MK-801), a non-competitive antagonist of the NMDA receptor, has been reported to prevent sensitization elicited by repeated administration of amphetamine and cocaine. The objective of the present study was to use the tail-flick latency assay, rectal temperature, and body weight gain to assess effects of repetitive treatment of MPD and whether MK-801 treatment would alter these effects in Sprague-Dawley rats. It was found that: (Ia) Acute administration of MPD or MK-801 did not alter the tail-flick latency, (Ib) Repeated administration of MPD decreased tail-flick latency, while repeated administration of MK-801 had no significant effect on tail-flick latency, (Ic) MK-801 given prior to or with MPD reversed the chronic effect on tail-flick latency produced by MPD; (IIa) When both drugs were independently given, MPD elicited a decrease in rectal temperature, while MK-801 alone produced an increase in temperature, (IIb) When given together, MK-801 had a transient effect in blocking the sensitization to MPD but failed to reverse the sensitization of MPD once it had developed; and (III) Both MK-801 and MPD caused an unstable pattern of body weight gain. Hence, the results of this study in rats suggest that MK-801 can modulate non-motor effects of MPD.

[johnmk]

Very interesting. Thank you for sharing your wisdom, I appreciate it. I hear you're writing a book. I'll probably be the first to buy it, even if 50% of the material is already relatively well-known to me, it'll be a handy reference and you deserve the credit.

Edit: There's no way I could know 90% of what this guy knows . . . so I changed the % to 50. Even that's probably way optimistic.

Edited by johnmk, 24 March 2005 - 04:50 AM.

[LifeMirage]

Thank you John.

Yes I am writing a book on the Neurology and nootropics. I think everyone will be amazed at the information as it will set a new standard and understanding of nootropics. It will also discuss who I am and what I am about to do in the next 5 years that will interest all of those who are shall we say Cognitively Aware.

Late 2005/Early 2006

Cognitive Awareness

[eternaltraveler]

I look forward to your book

[wannafulfill]

I look forward to your book

shit yeah I'll buy that crap too

[jolly]

Put me on the preorder list!

[emerson]

Add me to the number rather excited to hear the news. By the time its out, my current pile of books might even be to the point where I can justify adding another!

[ageless]

Really looking forward to this book Cognitive Awareness, LifeMirage.
Your knowledge and help on forums such as this one are defintely appreciated and I'm sure your book will be big hit for the cognitively aware!

[pinballwizard]

This is the only ranking we have. It is from the book called "smart candy" and it is a sceptical book on smart drugs. Remember the partial book ranking shows Smart drugs and not nootropics (which are smart drugs without any toxicity profile whatsoever).

Here is the link the ranking. http://www.imminst.o...t=0 For a more complete ranking you will have to abide by copyrights and buy the book.

My opinion is that deprenyl's risk/reward profile is off if you don't take SSRIs and you look at the contraindications and other warnings.

I also think that DHEA's risk is too high if you check for DHEA and cortisol levels and you check your prostate on a regular basis.

While I agree with the risk of Modafanil, other people will disagree with it. YMMV. Personally, I think it is risky and the smart drug benefit is counteracted by cognitive decline days afterwords.

Phosphatidyl Serine might be too high of a benefit since there are few if any clinical studies on non-beef sourced PS. Manufacturers stopped selling it after mad cow syndrome.

There are a lot of items not in this ranking that should be like Aricept, nefiracetam, Ritalin, picamilon, huperzine, vinpocetine and cutting edge smart drugs in trials or herbs like galanthamine, ashwganda or bacoba. Also the ranking does not include combo regimen rankings (Eg alpha-GPC and piracetam).

But this is a good starting point for a discussion.

I am in the agreement with others that YMMV a great deal.

Pinball

[magr]

Why do you think Hydergine got such a low score on that ranking?

[pinballwizard]

Magr,

According to people that are pro-hydergine, they would say that hydergine only works really well when combined with other items like piracetam. Source: Smart Drugs (I think?)

The Brain Candy Author is an anti-smart drug author. He thinks that supplementing smart drugs accept for the piracetams and the others listed is risky and with unknown affects.

But you should post your own profile and do it on my link. I provided you with the instructions. Simply put in what you think the scores are for items that you have tried for a considerable length of time.

I want Lynx and Life Mirage to have their own scores up eventually. Of course, this is their scores, not yours. They may be inaccurate according not just because of biases, placibo affects, etc, but also because their neurological system is different than yours. Perhaps you can handle the Sauna risk as therapy better than they can. [tung]

Pinball