3 replies to this topic

[RedCairo]

Greetings. I have been 'lurking' on this forum until now and want to say thank you to the people who take the time to answer the (same repeated) questions and give new people advice and share their experience. Imagine without the internet what option there would be for that kind of sharing on this kind of topic. Very cool that we have it. I've been reading/googling (thank god.* for the chrome plugin 'readability') for some time on the topic. I've gathered a list of things I have interest in and I've purchased powders, caps and holder so I can put some things together for myself. I should get everything early next week so I have a little time before final decisions.

Aside from high weight, I'm ridiculously healthy (all heart/blood work is great), very straight (don't even drink caffeine consistently to avoid dependency), good memory, creativity, highly functional in every category... I don't have any existing medications or problems I'm trying to treat, aside from the "given" of aging (late 40s) and probably a degree of hypoxia (sleep apnea for years). I meditate, don't exercise enough but am working on that, eat whole foods, mostly sleep enough, and am not a reckless idiot (-- as I now have a 15 year old to take that role for me, I have moved on ;-)). I'm not anxious nor depressed and have no life-changing exams/issues to 'crunch' brainpower for, just daily life. I bore you with all this only to point out that I am beginning on as much of an "even keel" as a person probably could... there aren't any major secondary considerations in my case, as I see with a lot of posters who are either on medications, are ill, or are coming off addictions or long-term usage of other stuff.

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I have some questions I have not seen anybody else ask or answer in all my reading and I'm hoping some of the more experienced folks might be willing to address them. Many thanks in advance for your time.

Questions:

1. Claims conflict on whether 'long term' let's say "moderate ongoing dosage with some off-cycling" use of racetams is good, bad, otherwise. I got lost in it all. Is there a general consensus? I'm referring to the primaries only in this question: Piracetam, Aniracetam, Oxiracetam, Pramiracetam.

2. Ignoring for a moment the "gradual" addition of stacked racetams, and finance, if all the racetams have slightly different application/results, why do people not combine small amounts of all of them, rather than large amounts of one or two?

3. I read about the half-life of the various racetams, yet others say it has to build up in your system for "awhile" (range varies radically). Is it one or the other or both? Does it vary by the one in question?

4. Would taking lower dosages than the 'standard recommended' result in NO longer-term effect, or merely no overtly-noticeable short-term effect, but still a gradual build-up in the body of potential effect?

5. Similar to (2) above but different approach: Is there any reason why people don't have a "rotating stack" that would switch which racetam(s) were being taken throughout a week or 10-day period?

5b > Would this not seem to reduce some potential issues of chronic use?

5c > Would each of these still (gradually) build up in your system if they do that? I can't see any logical reason why not, albeit it might take a bit longer for each given the either smaller dosage or lesser frequency.

6. Are there recommended 'cycle' times, to take some time off and take a bunch of Vit C and kidney/liver cleansing herbs and so on?

7. Are the racetams along with any form of choline combined, known to have impact on the estrogen/testosterone sort of hormones?

8. Would it be considered sane to "cycle" a racetam/choline stack with some days of a galantamine-based stack instead?

9. Although I see vasodilators referred to, I don't see many common stack combos that pointedly have one.
9A > How come?
9B > Isn't flush-niacin a body-wide dilator?

10. Despite all the talk about capping plus reading amazon reviews, I really had no idea how much a 0, 00, 000 cap "held" or how much room I'd need. I ordered 0 size caps and holder and will have to hope for the best. This would be a great thing to add to FAQs. Any comments on these for sizing?

11. Finding the B vitamins or synthetic better-neurally-absorbable-form of them in powder form is more difficult than nearly anything else -- amazon doesn't have them, only caps, and they had everything else. Are there suggestions for source in the USA?

12. I have learned that I don't really absorb magnesium (quality malate) orally, but when I put 'magnesium oil' (which is really dehydrated salty seawater) all over my skin, the result is startling and noticeable (much more energy the next day if done at night). (Probably due to a lifetime of gluten damage to digestive system, and 20 years of serious related nutrient deficits.) Some vitamins and other minerals are also able to be absorbed via the skin.
12A > Do you know of any common/quality elements in the Nootropic genre which also may be in this skin-absorbable category?
12B > Are there any known skin-reactions to racetams? I noticed some people said they burn the mouth if not capped.

13. People often act like choline is something that should be limited. I think eggs are one of the healthiest foods on earth and the yolks are filled with choline, so I find this confusing. Why would anybody 'avoid' taking it 'unless they got headaches' or whatever? Is there some dosage or dependency effect for this I haven't stumbled on?

I'd have more questions if I took more time but I'm sure that's enough. :-)

I really appreciate any time for answers.

Best regards,
RedCairo

[Geoffrey]

I wonder if this thread should be moved to the (more active) Brain Health section, rather than the Stacks subsection, as there are a lot of questions here that aren't about stacks.

I can only answer the questions about build-up and long-term use/cycling from personal experience. I first started with Piracetam 800mg per day, plus 250mg choline bitrartate, which worked nicely for about two weeks, gradually building up the stereotypical and easily recognizable effects (enhanced colours, greater sense of depth to music, increased sensitivity to shiny surfaces). But by the third week, I began to get tired, sometimes exahausted, in the middle of the day. At that point I switched to Aniracetam, on a lower dose, with choline, and that seemed fine for another week, then same problem plus growing brain fog. By this time I'd got hold of Oxiracetam. I stopped Ani and started taking this, and my first thought was "Yes, this is the one!", as it seemed to make my brain tingle and somehow concentrate energy there. I had also "graduated" to CDP-choline, which seemed more effective at controlling the tiredness than bitrartate. But the "miraculous" effect of Oxiracetam again lasted no more than a week or so, before I started getting tired again -- dog tired in the middle of the day, and fogged up.

I decided this was hardly enhancement, so stopped taking all racetams for a while. But here's the odd thing: it was as if I hadn't actually stopped. The colours were still enhanced, I couldn't help noticing shiny objects, and I still felt alternately light-headed, almost dizzy, and fogged at inconvenient times when I was supposed to be concentrating. Moreover, the effects would come in waves, with it seeming to die down for a few hours, and then "wham!", I'd get all the effects as if I'd taken a dose. Particularly noticeable on waking up. I could swear this went on for about two weeks, as the racetams gradually cleared from wherever they had accumulated in my system. Somewhere in amongst the "clearing" process was a sweet spot where the remaining racetams produced a pleasant amount of "enhancement" (if that's actually the right word) without the negative symptoms. I also noticed that the result of constant synapse stimulation was that I would have to go to bed at night earlier than I usually would, and sleep longer. Once they had completely cleared from my system, though, I found I missed the extra sense of clarity that they give your vision, when not feeling fogged, and the "spontaneous" boost to memory and ability to grasp ideas quickly that I had also noticed (again, when I wasn't feeling "drugged").

My subsequent use of racetams has been a series of experiments in dosing, in which I have to take smaller and smaller doses to avoid the negative effects, sometimes micro-doses. But somehow I always seem to end up with too much in my system and have to cycle them off so as to clear them out. I have yet to find a steady maintenance dose that balances the build-up and the clearing. Dosing is the trickiest thing with racetams, and seems to be different for everyone. One thing I'm not clear on is whether it is the actual racetams which build up in tissues in the body, or whether it is the "effect" (e.g., increased receptor density, increased sensitivity to firing stimulus) that builds up in the body and takes time to clear.

My advice is: yes, definitely cycle, and also cut right back to really small doses if you begin to get the kind of negative effects I've been discussing here.

PS Too much choline in these highly active forms, is not nice. It makes me feel dull, heavy and stupid, and also gives me a stiff neck. I would have thought that the form in eggs is much less likely to do that. It probably doesn't go straight to the brain.

Edited by Geoffrey, 05 May 2012 - 03:40 PM.

[RedCairo]

Thanks very much. If someone knows the admins and could ask them to move it that would be appreciated. It was my first post and I didn't want it to be in the wrong place...

There is some irony that people often take racetams and end up with symptoms of the sort most people want them to cure.

I'm curious though. I've read a great deal regarding herbs and other substances and one of the problems with almost any substance that "improves" any part of the body is the die-off detox effect you get, and the stronger the benefit usually the stronger the detox. So that has the same pattern. I'm wondering if it is possible that for many people the racetams needed to be rotated (I mean after just a day or two) with system cleansing substances (certain herbs and lots of Vit C for example) for awhile first. I expect most people probably start with a decent dose and hope to 'feel an effect' through that. There are plenty of herbs that are awesome for you but if you take a decent dose especially days running you'll feel like crap because of the detox effects (until eventually the system is clean at which point it's fine). Just makes me wonder if these 'reactions' people have could be related. I have not seen anybody talking about whether sudden improvement of brain-cells-X might be from a 'cleansing and tonic effect' of them but if so, it would make sense.

Best,
RC

[Geoffrey]

Some people seem to be absolutely fine on long-term high doses. Some people turn a bit... strange (find posts by Isochroma, who has now left the board).
My own feeling is that human brains are already pretty finely tuned and neurochemically balanced (if there is no degenerative disease), so it's a tricky thing to "overclock" one brain system and not expect another one to try to compensate for the imbalance. Sometimes you feel great, focused, clear-headed, able to concentrated like a laser beam, but in my experience, it's very hard to maintain that "great" focused feeling all the time. So for me, very conservative doses (even micro doses) plus cycling (say at weekends, or even one day on one day off) seems a better bet than constant megadosing as some people do. (Having said that, some people seem to notice no effect at all from Piracetam even at really high doses...)