46 replies to this topic

[Godot]

Due to everybody's travel schedules my bachelor party is going to be the day before the wedding rehearsal. Ouch.

Does anybody have any secret space-age anti-hangover juju for me?

[tlm884]

Don't drink is the only true hangover remedy. But keep well hydrated, keep your electrolytes up, B-vitamins can help. For every glass of alcohol try and consume one glass of water, potassium is great. Try orange juice, bananas, dried fruit (apriocots I think are high in K+). Take a B-complex.

[Godot]

Yeah, I know people like to pitch each other on the common sense water & potassium regimen, but in my experience these are not at all effective. What I'm looking for are supplements which might speed along the clearance of harmful ethanol metabolites.

Milk thistle maybe?

[Godot]

Looking into this I see that wikipedia has a pretty good summary of ethanol metabolism: http://en.wikipedia....to_acetaldehyde

Ethanol -> acetaldehyde -> acetic acid -> acetyl-CoA


Acetyl-CoA seems to be very useful stuff, so once the conversion gets there we're home free.

Acetic acid should be harmless as well -- it's nothing but a little vinegar, and seems to be naturally present in the body - http://en.wikipedia....id#Biochemistry

That leaves us with acetaldehyde, which seems to be the culprit. It breaks down into nasty free radicals pretty readily, so some antioxidants may help - C, E, B1... maybe grape seed extract?

But I'd like to find a way to directly enhance the conversion of acetaldehyde into acetic acid. This is controlled by aldehyde dehydrogenase, especially ALDH2 -- so are there rate-limiting factors in the production of ALDH2 which can be supplemented, or supplements which might stimulate its production??

[Junk Master]

Milk Thistle BEFORE drinking.

Vitamin C and plenty of water WHILE drinking.

NOOPEPT and a low dose of Phenibut in the morning. Plus coffee if you have the habit. Then 25-40 minutes of aerobic exercise, a high fat meal post, and a nap.

[Godot]

It looks like Mark's Daily Apple has done a bunch of the footwork for me on this: http://www.marksdail.../#axzz1wlZvR6rk

• Take n-acetylcysteine supplements (at least 200 mg) a half hour before your first drink. NAC is known to reduce acetaldehyde toxicity and increase glutathione, and, since acetaldehyde toxicity represents a massive contribution to the hangover effects, it appears to be an effective way to combat hangovers. It’s even more effective when combined with thiamine (Vitamin B1). In fact, one of the more popular “hangover pills” uses both NAC and thiamine as its active ingredients. I’ve never tried it myself, but it fetches some impressive Amazon reviews.
• In rats, taurine also accelerates the breakdown of acetaldehyde into harmless acetic acid. It might be worth trying.
• A cup or two of green tea before embarking on a bar-hop appears to be good for one’s liver. It may also reduce hangover symptoms.
• Prickly pear (opuntia ficus indica) extract, given five hours before alcohol consumption, reduced hangover symptoms by inhibiting the production of inflammatory mediators. C-reactive protein levels were higher in the control group and strongly associated with hangover severity. Since the plant has historically been used to reduce inflammation, this result suggests that a hangover is actually a result of inflammatory processes in the body. Supplements are rare, however, and users report dizziness along with efficacy.
• Magnesium is an important anti-inflammatory mineral that many people are deficient in. Alcohol depletes magnesium. Hangovers seem to be connected to inflammation. Taking magnesium (which you should already be doing if your diet is lacking) on a heavy drinking day might be helpful, too.
• Milk thistle extract (active ingredient: silymarin) has also been shown to protect the liver from ethanol toxicity. The plant’s seeds have been used for centuries as an (apparently effective) folk treatment for jaundice (PDF), which is caused by liver dysfunction.

The PreToxx supplement mentioned there seems to have everything we'd be looking for except taurine, and is time-released. That sounds like a win. ...maybe with some taurine thrown in as well. I'll keep some coconut water on hand to drink before bed for a nice shot of potassium

Here's another pretty good review somebody put together: http://www.elitefitn...ool-221302.html

Mark also points out that ethanol inhibits antidiuretic hormone (arginine vasopressin) -- so if there were a supplement that increased ADH or even stimulated pituitary activity in general, it might be useful in preventing alcohol-induced dehydration. Does anybody know of anything like that?

Edited by Godot, 03 June 2012 - 09:40 PM.

[Logic]

Activated charcoal isnt very good at absorbing alochol but will help to absord the other junk/toxins in the booze and is good at absorbing AGEs already formed in in foods.

[Hebbeh]

It looks like Mark's Daily Apple has done a bunch of the footwork for me on this: http://www.marksdail.../#axzz1wlZvR6rk



The PreToxx supplement mentioned there seems to have everything we'd be looking for except taurine, and is time-released. That sounds like a win. ...maybe with some taurine thrown in as well. I'll keep some coconut water on hand to drink before bed for a nice shot of potassium

Here's another pretty good review somebody put together: http://www.elitefitn...ool-221302.html

Mark also points out that ethanol inhibits antidiuretic hormone (arginine vasopressin) -- so if there were a supplement that increased ADH or even stimulated pituitary activity in general, it might be useful in preventing alcohol-induced dehydration. Does anybody know of anything like that?

It is fine to use NAC a few hours prior to drinking but don't use NAC once you start drinking or the next morning for a cure.....after the fact, NAC will increase alcohol induced liver damage...so NAC after drinking is a good way to blow out your liver. This has been discussed here and else where in the past. I couldn't find the mother of all threads on it but a quick search pulled this courtesy of synesthesia:

Here's why you should take NAC before drinking, but not after...

Cheers!

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/16439183

A dual effect of N-acetylcysteine on acute ethanol-induced liver damage in mice.Wang AL, Wang JP, Wang H, Chen YH, Zhao L, Wang LS, Wei W, Xu DX.
Department of Toxicology, Anhui Medical University, Hefei 230032, PR China; Toxicology Laboratory, Center for Disease Control of Anhui Province, Hefei 230032, PR China.

Reactive oxygen species (ROS) have been associated with acute ethanol-induced liver damage. N-acetylcysteine (NAC) is a glutathione (GSH) precursor and direct antioxidant. In this study, we investigated the effects of NAC on acute ethanol-induced liver damage. Female ICR mice were administered by gavage with a single dose of ethanol (6g/kg). NAC was administered in two different modes. In mode A, mice were injected with different doses of NAC at 30min before ethanol. In mode B, mice were injected with different doses of NAC at 4h after ethanol. Acute ethanol-induced liver damage was estimated by measuring serum alanine aminotransferase (ALT) activity and histopathological changes. Result showed that a single dose of ethanol (6g/kg) caused a significant increase in serum ALT activity, followed by microvesicular steatosis and necrosis in mouse liver. Pretreatment with NAC significantly protected against acute ethanol-induced liver damage in a dose-independent manner. Correspondingly, pretreatment with NAC significantly attenuated acute ethanol-induced lipid peroxidation and GSH depletion and inhibited hepatic TNF-alpha mRNA expression. By contrast, post-treatment with NAC aggravated ethanol-induced hepatic lipid peroxidation and worsened acute ethanol-induced liver damage in a dose-dependent manner. Taken together, NAC has a dual effect on acute ethanol-induced liver damage. Pretreatment with NAC prevent from acute ethanol-induced liver damage via counteracting ethanol-induced oxidative stress. When administered after ethanol, NAC might behave as a pro-oxidant and aggravate acute ethanol-induced liver damage.

PMID: 16439183 [PubMed - in process]

http://www.longecity...nac#entry503947

[Godot]

Very interesting. I wonder why NAC exacerbates liver damage when administered after ethanol... This could mean that time-released NAC is not such a good idea.

It looks like LEF has a formula - http://www.lef.org/V...on-Complex.html

They recommend taking one cap with each drink, but just taking a few beforehand may be a better strategy based on the study above.

[Junk Master]

IMO--

If you can remember the number of times you've thrown up after drinking, you really don't have to worry about it unless you're planning on eating a bunch of Tylenol.

[Godot]

For me it's an issue, since I seem to be suffering much worse hangovers as I get older. I'm 32 now, and very very rarely throw up either during or after drinking, but my hangovers the last few years seem to last a full 24 hours.

I seem to process alcohol very efficiently (I can drink a lot without getting drunk), but seem to process acetaldehyde rather poorly (often get hangovers from just a few drinks, get headaches before intoxication). I worry about the implications of this for my liver and general health, since I rarely overindulge and feel like I should be able to easily cope with the oxidative stress.

If I can improve my alcohol metabolism, it'll really improve my ability to enjoy my bachelor party, wedding day, and honeymoon.

Edited by Godot, 04 June 2012 - 06:08 AM.

[hamishm00]

It's a big stack, but this works without fail - my standard (and in my opinion, the ultimate) pre-drink regimen, never had a hangover no matter how much I drink:

2 x B Complex pills (http://www.iherb.com...0-Capsules/3980)
4 x NAC 600mg (http://www.iherb.com...g-250-Vcaps/694)
2 x Vitamin c 1000mg with bioflavs (http://www.iherb.com...250-Tablets/468)
2 x 400mg enteric Sam-E (http://www.iherb.com...ted-Tablets/125)
2 x 500mg potassium bicarb (http://www.iherb.com...-Capsules/37917)
2 x milk thistle (http://www.iherb.com...ggie-Caps/41218)
3 x 900mg PPC (Hepatopro) http://www.iherb.com...-Softgels/39625
4 x 1000mg Taurine (http://www.iherb.com...00-Capsules/133)
1 x 50mg Zinc Picolinate http://www.iherb.com...20-Capsules/878

[platypus]

The LEF formula definitely lessens hangovers, highly recommended.

[Cephalon]

I would also recommend NAC - it definitely helps to some degree. I used to take around 600mg NAC + Zinc + Vit C and was pretty much hangover free. Plenty of water is a must. Try to drink water beside drinks as well as before bed.

[Dorian Grey]

Plain old NAC is the good stuff, but they say you're supposed to take at least twice as much Vitamin-C as NAC and too much vitamin-C can cause diarrhea the next day... Not a good thing to have when you're standing at the alter.

My limit used to be 2 600mg NAC and 2 grams of C total for the evening. One dose of each taken on an empty stomach an hour or so before dinner, and the other dose with the first or second drink.

Avoid deep fat fried foods the day of the party. The vegetable oils they are fried in are full of polyunsaturates and acetaldehyde turns polyunsaturates (and your liver) RANCID. Same with fish oils and omega 3s.

Avoid drinks with lunch, or before the party, as these will drain your liver's alcohol metabolizing batteries before the main event.

Stick to beer and avoid the temptation to do the shots of Jagermeister everyone will be pushing on you. There's nothing in the world that can fix a hard liquor hangover. If you're going to do spirits, remember, "the darker the liquor, the quicker you're sicker". Vodka or Gin is better than Jack Daniels.

A V-8, some SAM-e, a Denver omelette, and coffee the morning after and you're good to go.

Mind how you go with the bachelor party... I had a friend who wound up getting a bit carried away at his the week before the wedding and wound up giving his new bride herpes on their wedding night!

Edited by synesthesia, 04 June 2012 - 12:54 PM.

[Logic]

...If you're going to do spirits, remember, "the darker the liquor, the quicker you're sicker". Vodka or Gin is better than Jack Daniels.

Thats where Activated Charcoal helps. It may just absorb the supps you take tho.

[hooter]

http://www.derdrink.at/

^^^ Either get this or mix the ingredients yourself

[Godot]

I'm thinking that l-cysteine may be a better choice than NAC, since it avoids potential side effects from NAC and seems to be effective:

Cysteine has been proposed as a preventative or antidote for some of the negative effects of alcohol, including liver damage and hangover. It counteracts the poisonous effects of acetaldehyde, which is the major by-product of alcohol metabolism and is responsible for most of the negative aftereffects and long-term damage associated with alcohol use (but not the immediate effects of drunkenness). Cysteine supports the next step in metabolism, which turns acetaldehyde into the relatively harmless acetic acid. In a rat study, test animals received an LD50 dose of acetaldehyde (the amount that normally kills half of all animals). Those that received cysteine had an 80% survival rate; when both cysteine and thiamine were administered, all animals survived.[24]

http://en.wikipedia....ects_of_alcohol

[Heraclitean]

Drink absurd amounts of water as you crawl into bed (as much as you can handle: too little and it won't work, I usually aim for at least 1.5 litres) and some ibuprofen before sleep. If you can stomach it, some turmeric (anti-inflammatory, analgesic and hepatoprotective), fish oil and coconut oil ( anti-inflammatory, and easy access ketone fuel for your frazzled and stunned neurons) before sleeping has also helped me in the past. But the most important point remains the first one.

[Dorian Grey]

Drink absurd amounts of water as you crawl into bed (as much as you can handle: too little and it won't work, I usually aim for at least 1.5 litres) and some ibuprofen before sleep. If you can stomach it, some turmeric (anti-inflammatory, analgesic and hepatoprotective), fish oil and coconut oil ( anti-inflammatory, and easy access ketone fuel for your frazzled and stunned neurons) before sleeping has also helped me in the past. But the most important point remains the first one.

I've heard others say hydration is the key to hangover prevention... Just make sure you don't pass out on your back or you could chunder and aspirate. Wouldn't want to wake up dead on your wedding day. A rubber sheet on the bed might be wise too.

Watch out for fish oil and alcohol... Acetaldehyde from alcohol metabolism will oxidize this in a flash and you'll wake up with RANCID LIVER.

Fish Oil and Ethanol are what mad scientists use to produce liver disease in rats!
http://www.longecity...ohol-cirrhosis/

Edited by synesthesia, 05 June 2012 - 01:53 AM.

[Godot]

Hydration is definitely an important component, since alcohol acts as a diuretic. I'd love to find a way you counter this action so the dehydration & mineral loss were preempted.

[Heraclitean]

^ I counter dehydration by drinking a full bottle of water before going to bed. I don't think you can really preempt it before drinking, because the alcohol will just make you piss, and attempts to block alcohol's anti diuretic action are probably ill-advised. But unless you are so drunk you piss in your sleep, then drinking plenty of water before going to bed, TOGETHER WITH IBUPROFEN, should do the trick, to the extent that any "trick" really exists.

That's all from me. Enjoy yourself!

[Godot]

Alcohol inhibits vasopressin (anti-diuretic hormone), and that's why it causes dehydration. I don't see how attempts to counter the antidiuretic action would be ill-advised, unless whatever was used for this purpose had untoward side effects.

Are there any supplements that can safely encourage water conservation?

[Dorian Grey]

"Are there any supplements that can safely encourage water conservation?"

Sodium Chloride?

[Godot]

Not a bad idea. Maybe something like this? http://amzn.com/B002NSR00K

[Heraclitean]

Alcohol inhibits vasopressin (anti-diuretic hormone), and that's why it causes dehydration. I don't see how attempts to counter the antidiuretic action would be ill-advised, unless whatever was used for this purpose had untoward side effects.

Are there any supplements that can safely encourage water conservation?

Yeah, my thinking was that any anti-diuretic strong enough to oppose alcohol, which is a very strong diuretic, would probably not be "side effect" free. And if you're already abusing your body with booze, to add more variables into the equation seems ill-adivsed...

[Godot]

Fair enough. It seems like tipping the electrolyte balance toward sodium should be a safe enough way of at least slowing down the diuretic effect. If anyone has any other suggestions on how to do this I'd love to hear them (maybe some herb is supportive of kidney function?)

The whole point of this is to combat the elements of alcohol ingestion which are ordinarily abusive to the body while still enjoying its effects and the social rituals which involve its use. I want to have my cake and eat it too

So far my regimen is looking like:

• 1g L-Cysteine
• 1g Taurine
• 2-3g Time-Released Vitamin C with rose hips
• 1 Jarrow B-Right B Complex with 25mg B1
• 1 Jarrow Toco-sorb E Complex
• 300mg Milk Thistle standardized to 30:1 silymarin
• 1 or 2 Saltstick electrolyte capsules

Edited by Godot, 05 June 2012 - 11:05 PM.

[Godot]

Maybe I could kill two birds with one pill by replacing the C and electrolyte pills on my list with some sodium ascorbate...

Would that interfere with absorption of the other supplements?

Anyway, I can't seem to find it in capsules, and loose powder isn't an option for this project, unfortunately..

Edited by Godot, 05 June 2012 - 10:58 PM.

[natro]

It is fine to use NAC a few hours prior to drinking but don't use NAC once you start drinking or the next morning for a cure.....after the fact, NAC will increase alcohol induced liver damage...so NAC after drinking is a good way to blow out your liver. This has been discussed here and else where in the past. I couldn't find the mother of all threads on it but a quick search pulled this courtesy of synesthesia:




http://www.longecity...nac#entry503947

Since I drink 5 nights a week I have been heavily looking into ways to minimize toxicity. Besides drinking, my diet is quite strong (no grains, vitamin D supplements.. omega 3.. Heavy vegetables and grass fed beef).

Anyway, even if I hardly would get hangovers before, I have been taking 600mg NAC + 1g Vit C + 100mg B1 before drinking and I often take another 600mb NAC and 1g vit C an hour after I start drinking. So far it seems to have really prevented hangovers for me. I also mostly drink vodka now since it's the least damaging alcohol according to what others have said in this thread and on this chart http://www.bulletpro...ess-networking/ (this link is also where I got my initial inspiration to try NAC + Vit C + B1). If you want the information behind that post, most of it is from http://www.ceri.com/alcohol.htm.


Now, what I am not sure of and would like help is, when to take NAC? As others have pointed out apparently if you take it too late it's actually more harmful than good. However, I don't think that study involved the rats using vit C? The reason Vit C is taken with NAC is because it apparently helps NAC be "on the job". I take time released vitamin C with rose hip, this is so vitamin C is constantly being deployed during the hours NAC is fighting alcohol... I usually take the first round about 10 minutes before I start drinking because I heard NAC has a short half life... I think I had read as low as 30 minutes on these forums (!!!!). On this product page at iherb the manufcaturer says 1.5 hours for normal NAC supplement half life. If this is true, I probably should take it 30 minutes before I start drinking so I have an hour going on it and then I pop the second round an hour later (for a total of 2:30 protected at least... I usually drink heavily fast since I drink vodka straight up but I stop rapidly and start drinking water)


Also, something else very relevant to me because I drink often and might help others. MAGNESIUM SUPPLEMENTATION. I after I started drinking 5 nights a week for the past 6 months I started getting leg cramps... I was not sure why but then I realized I needed magnesium so I started supplementing with 400mg a day. It was not always enough and I was wondering why I needed to up the dosage... I realized a few days ago it's because alcohol flushes out a lot of magnesium so I now take some when I wake up and before going to bed (I usually stopped drinking alcohol 3-4 hours prior to bedtime).

Anyway, for hangover prevention I think NAC + Vit C + B1 is all you need. Try it out once before your party to make sure it works for you... For me I never get hangovers now BUT I also only had one 10-20% of the time before and it was quite mild (so my body is probably quite resistant to alcohol toxicity... I'm also in my mid 20s)

I'll definitely try milk thistle... I want to make sure my liver is protected... I won't be drinking this much alcohol for much longer but for now I want my partying to not destroy my liver in the future.

Edited by natro, 06 June 2012 - 12:07 AM.

[rubegoldberg]

I and several others that I know have had good outcomes with Source Natural's Hangover Formula.