48 replies to this topic

[Raptor87]

As the title say´s, Is there any research behind this?

Do people with anxiety have higher IQ?

[khemix]

I do remember reading a study that suggested that but can't remember where.

I will say this. In my life, the brightest students (IQ 140+) in the sciences all suffered from severe anxiety whether in the form of an anxiety disorder or some mood problems. A lot of them were women too, and looking back at their descriptions they had panic attacks going on occasionally. That is not to say that all the smart people I've met have been anxious, but the spatial ones (ie good at math) most definitely did.

[hippocampus]

People with OCD have higher verbal IQ and OCD is by most classifications anxiety disorder (albeit somewhat different than others). Anyway, IQ does not correlate with personality factors - it correlates only with openness which is also the weakest factor in Big-Five model. OTOH, look this: http://www.myhealthn...d-high-iq.html. There probably is some connection, but I think it's a complex one and it may have something to do with other factors other than intelligence.

Edited by hippocampus, 17 June 2012 - 06:38 PM.

[nowayout]

It makes sense that more intelligent people would spend more time thinking about the meaning (or lack of it) of life and their own mortality, and be more prone to existential depression/anxiety. The dumb have the opiates of religion and popular culture.

[Junk Master]

Yes.

http://www.frontiers....00008/abstract

I believe there are more complex explanations as well.

[hippocampus]

Has anybody here read "Why zebras don't get ulcers?" It's something about evolution of anxiety, I think, maybe it's useful for this question.

[nowayout]

Yes.

http://www.frontiers....00008/abstract

I believe there are more complex explanations as well.

So the answer is both yes and no depending on whether you suffer from generalized anxiety disorder or not. They say IQ is indeed correlated with worry in people with GAD but inversely correlated with worry in healthy patients. From the paper:

Relatively high anxiety in patients with GAD predicted high IQ whereas relatively low anxiety in controls also predicted high IQ. That is, the relationship between anxiety and intelligence was positive in GAD patients but inverse in healthy volunteers.

They found a correlation of worry with low choline metabolism across groups:

When data from GAD patients and healthy controls were combined, relatively low CHO predicted both relatively higher IQ and worry scores.

Maybe I should eat more eggs. From Wikipedia:

In general, people who do not eat many whole eggs may have to pay close attention to get enough choline in their diets. Studies on a number of different populations have found that the average intake of choline was below the adequate intake (AI).
The choline researcher Dr. Steven Zeisel wrote: "A recent analysis of data from NHANES 2003–2004 revealed that for [American] older children, men, women and pregnant women, mean choline intakes are far below the AI. Ten percent or fewer had usual choline intakes at or above the AI."

Could it be that simple?

Edited by viveutvivas, 17 June 2012 - 10:01 PM.

[Junk Master]

Great post and great question.

I'm instantly reminded of scurvy and vitamin C.

[Raptor87]

Well no wonder that mental problems are increasing

What´s more bothersome with this is....

Is it possible to be objective while doing an intellectual analys of something? Opinions formed through a fear state might make people a little bit judgemental, hehe.

And also if this is true, aren´t we creating a worldview through science and forgetting the human to human relation, meaning that we are objectifying ourselves and our relations and thus forgetting basic human behaviour? Which is needed if we wan´t to function on a social level!

[Raptor87]

It makes sense that more intelligent people would spend more time thinking about the meaning (or lack of it) of life and their own mortality, and be more prone to existential depression/anxiety. The dumb have the opiates of religion and popular culture.

I think this is a little bit judgemental.

Doesn´t religion and science promote the same kind of though pattern?

Is spiritualism based on stupidity? Maybe being determined is, and also saying that this is the truth is. Or being judgemental. But I don´t understand why our genes would be stupid, religion started with the question which is a sign of intelligence. There are even some genes that is linked to believing in god or religion or something like that. Then of course this derailed when we formed religion. I can´t judge it as being stupid though, only how some pople act it out or make it in to something deterministic and fundamental.

Is religious intelligence stupid?

Is social intelligence stupid?

Is having anxiety intellient?

Is having anger stupid?

I see it a s a function of means which is a good thing looking through an evolutionary standpoint, I really don´t believe in stupidity anymore! My cat is highly intelligent when he measures how far he should leap when he jumps between objects. He must be a mathematical genious of somesort. I hope you understand what I am trying to point out my friend. Don´t rule out things and try to respect other people. Note that I am not religous myself.

Edited by Brainfogged, 17 June 2012 - 11:28 PM.

[sparkk51]

Well no wonder that mental problems are increasing

What´s more bothersome with this is....

Is it possible to be objective while doing an intellectual analys of something? Opinions formed through a fear state might make people a little bit judgemental, hehe.

And also if this is true, aren´t we creating a worldview through science and forgetting the human to human relation, meaning that we are objectifying ourselves and our relations and thus forgetting basic human behaviour? Which is needed if we wan´t to function on a social level!

Don't ask me how I came up with this, but I believe a reduction in social skills is inevitable considering the direction the human race is taking. Perhaps the only reason humans need such advanced contextual understanding is because of the broad spectrum of issues an individual must deal with that pertain with dealing with other individuals. However, as our population expands, responsibilities per individual decrease and with that, our demand to communicate with others. Eventually, this decrease in socializing (and an increase in our vocabulary) will leave us almost entirely dependent on strict language.

Edited by sparkk51, 18 June 2012 - 03:04 AM.

[sparkk51]

It makes sense that more intelligent people would spend more time thinking about the meaning (or lack of it) of life and their own mortality, and be more prone to existential depression/anxiety. The dumb have the opiates of religion and popular culture.

I think this is a little bit judgemental.

Doesn´t religion and science promote the same kind of though pattern?

Is spiritualism based on stupidity? Maybe being determined is, and also saying that this is the truth is. Or being judgemental. But I don´t understand why our genes would be stupid, religion started with the question which is a sign of intelligence. There are even some genes that is linked to believing in god or religion or something like that. Then of course this derailed when we formed religion. I can´t judge it as being stupid though, only how some pople act it out or make it in to something deterministic and fundamental.

Is religious intelligence stupid?

Is social intelligence stupid?

Is having anxiety intellient?

Is having anger stupid?

I see it a s a function of means which is a good thing looking through an evolutionary standpoint, I really don´t believe in stupidity anymore! My cat is highly intelligent when he measures how far he should leap when he jumps between objects. He must be a mathematical genious of somesort. I hope you understand what I am trying to point out my friend. Don´t rule out things and try to respect other people. Note that I am not religous myself.

So, from what I understand, you're questioning why more intelligent individuals would be more prone to negative characteristics such as anxiety. Remember, intelligence is thrown around a lot and is understood in many different ways. One could view intelligence as also being a characteristic, just like anxiety. Yet, because of the connotation we add to the word intelligent (good, superior, strong) we tend to view it as more of a position in society; higher intelligent individuals are commonly depicted as sitting at the top of the food chain, in a metaphorical sense. Well, as I understand it, intelligence is a mere characteristic of an organism who has the ability to learn behaviors, skills, etc. This does not necessitate that it will be a trait of the fittest organism, regardless of how well human beings are doing (or aren't doing...). Now, thinking back on your assumed question of why higher-intelligent individuals would be more afflicted with anxiety, anger or maybe the contrary. Do you see how intelligence is just a human characteristic that does entail success? If you can understand this, then it should be easy for you to perceive intelligence side-by-side with anxiety (or any other trait for that matter).

Edited by sparkk51, 18 June 2012 - 03:35 AM.

[Raptor87]

It makes sense that more intelligent people would spend more time thinking about the meaning (or lack of it) of life and their own mortality, and be more prone to existential depression/anxiety. The dumb have the opiates of religion and popular culture.

I think this is a little bit judgemental.

Doesn´t religion and science promote the same kind of though pattern?

Is spiritualism based on stupidity? Maybe being determined is, and also saying that this is the truth is. Or being judgemental. But I don´t understand why our genes would be stupid, religion started with the question which is a sign of intelligence. There are even some genes that is linked to believing in god or religion or something like that. Then of course this derailed when we formed religion. I can´t judge it as being stupid though, only how some pople act it out or make it in to something deterministic and fundamental.

Is religious intelligence stupid?

Is social intelligence stupid?

Is having anxiety intellient?

Is having anger stupid?

I see it a s a function of means which is a good thing looking through an evolutionary standpoint, I really don´t believe in stupidity anymore! My cat is highly intelligent when he measures how far he should leap when he jumps between objects. He must be a mathematical genious of somesort. I hope you understand what I am trying to point out my friend. Don´t rule out things and try to respect other people. Note that I am not religous myself.

So, from what I understand, you're questioning why more intelligent individuals would be more prone to negative characteristics such as anxiety. Remember, intelligence is thrown around a lot and is understood in many different ways. One could view intelligence as also being a characteristic, just like anxiety. Yet, because of the connotation we add to the word intelligent (good, superior, strong) we tend to view it as more of a position in society; higher intelligent individuals are commonly depicted as sitting at the top of the food chain, in a metaphorical sense. Well, as I understand it, intelligence is a mere characteristic of an organism who has the ability to learn behaviors, skills, etc. This does not necessitate that it will be a trait of the fittest organism, regardless of how well human beings are doing (or aren't doing...). Now, thinking back on your assumed question of why higher-intelligent individuals would be more afflicted with anxiety, anger or maybe the contrary. Do you see how intelligence is just a human characteristic that does entail success? If you can understand this, then it should be easy for you to perceive intelligence side-by-side with anxiety (or any other trait for that matter).

I am not questioning anything, just trying to be open to the idea. I think you are talking about being the fittest and not good, superiour, strong, or rather fit to society. But I do find the discussion being interesting, and also I think that sometimes we need to narrow things down for a further discussion. What I am tired of is people who talk about intelligence, link it to superiority, and also tend to bring out alot of of negativity which I find being uninteresting in these context´s. We have a spectrum that is a definition of intelligence through a scientific point (although science is not deterministic but rather objective) of view, this is the relation I want to discuss in this thread. If it serves today or is accurate within a 100years, I doubt it! But something I don´t wan´t to do is judge in these concerns. Yes I do see the link that is why I bring it up, but for the moment I wan´t to rule some features out as we are talking about of intelligence within a spectrum and of course while being objective about it and not judgemental of others.

[Raza]

It makes sense that more intelligent people would spend more time thinking about the meaning (or lack of it) of life and their own mortality, and be more prone to existential depression/anxiety. The dumb have the opiates of religion and popular culture.

I don't agree. In my experience, people choose subjects to focus on out of their range of imagination (not even necessarily grasp, although there is a relation) based on how well the mood of the line of thought matches their present emotional state. Anxious people will find thoughts to worry about, self-satisfied people will linger on their achievements and built on them with ambitious plans; appreciative people may admire how well everything in a picture falls into place while empathetic ones regret the harshness of the mechanics that make it. Intelligence is like the power of a flash light in the dark, while mood determines where we aim it - take any mood-affecting drug and you'll notice it has pervasive influence on the range of thoughts and conclusions available to you, without necessarily changing the quality of your logic. Sure, once in a while an intellectually honest and sufficiently detached thinker will be surprised by an answer and its emotional load, but for the most part, we harvest what we sow.

If thinking about 'the lack of a meaning of life' makes you anxious and/or depressed, it's because you set on the subject motivated by existing angst that manifested itself in the questions you asked and the general direction you looked in for an answer. Feeling down is not a logical conclusion.

Edited by Raza, 18 June 2012 - 02:32 PM.

[sparkk51]

So, from what I understand, you're questioning why more intelligent individuals would be more prone to negative characteristics such as anxiety. Remember, intelligence is thrown around a lot and is understood in many different ways. One could view intelligence as also being a characteristic, just like anxiety. Yet, because of the connotation we add to the word intelligent (good, superior, strong) we tend to view it as more of a position in society; higher intelligent individuals are commonly depicted as sitting at the top of the food chain, in a metaphorical sense. Well, as I understand it, intelligence is a mere characteristic of an organism who has the ability to learn behaviors, skills, etc. This does not necessitate that it will be a trait of the fittest organism, regardless of how well human beings are doing (or aren't doing...). Now, thinking back on your assumed question of why higher-intelligent individuals would be more afflicted with anxiety, anger or maybe the contrary. Do you see how intelligence is just a human characteristic that does entail success? If you can understand this, then it should be easy for you to perceive intelligence side-by-side with anxiety (or any other trait for that matter).

Oh, I meant to ask if you see how intelligence is a human characteristic that does not entail success. My bad...

[Junk Master]

Doesn't moderately high intelligence, using IQ for convenience, 120-140, positively correlate with success while anything above 160 negatively correlate?

Also, isn't willpower (the marshmallow test) the strongest indicator of success?

[Brafarality]

Maybe intelligence combined with an unfulfilled life correlates with anxiety, but I don't think there is a general correlation. For every angst-ridden Picasso and Van Gogh (both among the greatest geniuses, and two of my favorite figures, in human history), there is a Darwin or a Mendel, both of whom apparently were very serene, particularly in their later years, yet both had undeniable massive intelligence and, of course, and MUCH more importantly, huge imagination to go along with their IQ.

And, humbly using myself as a much lesser example of imagination (though maybe not of the lesser faculty of IQ since I dont believe the greatest geniuses had particularly high IQs in general, since its all about originality):
I am a 99.9% IQ and near perfect GRE/SAT/LSAT type who has all sorts of serious social hangups and mental issues (none clinical, apparently, though I am sure I am close!), but one thing I am NOT stricken with is extreme anxiety. I just like to cruise around northern jersey nights, hit Starbucks, Whole Foods, Pearl Paints, bars on weekends, and don't really have life anxiety.

But, I do obsess on consciousness all the time, sun exposure and vegan dieting, and also paint and draw incessantly. So these may be outlets. Without them, I may turn a pistol on myself for all I know. Just my rambling rubbish worth on this.

Edited by Brafarality, 19 June 2012 - 07:01 PM.

[Junk Master]

IMO-- Just reading your post made me anxious.

BTW-- There's been much speculation, especially in Darwin's case, that both he and Mendel had Asperger's, so I don't know if they are the best models of serenity. More likely both internalized their anxiety and escaped through their work.

[nowayout]

Maybe intelligence combined with an unfulfilled life correlates with anxiety, but I don't think there is a general correlation. For every angst-ridden Picasso and Van Gogh (both among the greatest geniuses, and two of my favorite figures, in human history), there is a Darwin or a Mendel, both of whom apparently were very serene, particularly in their later years, yet both had undeniable massive intelligence and, of course, and MUCH more importantly, huge imagination to go along with their IQ.

In Darwin's case? He is thought to have suffered from panic disorder and various phobias, anxiety, possible agoraphobia, depression, and various possibly psychosomatic illnesses.

[Brafarality]

IMO-- Just reading your post made me anxious.

BTW-- There's been much speculation, especially in Darwin's case, that both he and Mendel had Asperger's, so I don't know if they are the best models of serenity. More likely both internalized their anxiety and escaped through their work.

I hate to knock on the 'cottage industry' of post mortem diagnosing historical figures with aspergers or autism, but most serious research on creativity focuses on and has found links between schizophrenia and bipolar and creativity, but not autism spectrum:

http://www.livescien...s-revealed.html
http://www.eurekaler...i-clt051810.php
http://www.scienceda...31001061055.htm

I don't think autism spectrum correlates at all with creativity and, if anything, it appears to inversely correlate with it, that is, if you are diagnosed, your chances of being a truly creative person is probably next to zero percent. That is why I am highly doubtful, as are most serious researchers (http://en.wikipedia....idered_autistic), that any great creative genius in human history had an autism spectrum disorder.

But, schizophrenia and bipolar? There is definitely a strong correlation, particularly bipolar.

But, as for their personas, I guess I fell for folklore around Darwin as the wise old father and husband later in life who died serenely. And, same with Mendel, but less on folklore and more on some casual reading about his life. Maybe his anxiety caused him to appreciate the solitude of monastic life and crop growing so much. I kind of rolled it off the top of my head based upon the impressions formed and didnt look into it.

[BTW: Strong feelings on this because autism has become a TV-safe affliction, whereas schizophrenia has not. Sheldon Cooper, Monk (OCD, I know, but similar persona), Rainman, etc. Noone's afraid of them. There is an epidemic of people self-diagnosing Aspergers in order to feel special. It is pretty despicable and it has nothing whatsoever to do with those who are genuinely afflicted. I have no ill will toward them at all. Just the propping of the 'safe' affliction that makes you feel special over the 'dirty' one that people are still terrified of. But, strangely, it all depends on context: if you bring up genius after watching an episode of Big Bang Theory, youll get a different angle from the same person than if you bring it up after watching a bio on Van Gogh or Picasso. In one case, it'll be on the social misfit with something resembling Aspergers but whose really smart and brilliant and everyone has this appreciation for him/her. In the other case, it'll be a discussion on how madness and genius are very close to each other. Same person, different contexts. Happens every time. No attempt to reconcile the 'brilliant social misfit' with the 'insane social outcast'. Wow, rambling and raving lately!]

Edited by Brafarality, 19 June 2012 - 09:25 PM.

[Junk Master]

Yes, Asperger's is the "disease of the month" and I agree with your assertion the correlation between creativity and schizophrenia and bipolar, but I don't believe there's a negative correlation between creativity and Asperger's. Plus, the intense focus of those with Asperger's on their particular area of interest leads to accelerated mastery (they hit their 10,000 hours fast...), which is definitely advantageous in creative as well as scientific fields.

I know the famous person with Asperger's game gets tiring, but tell me Andy Warhol wasn't on the spectrum.

I'd also argue that scientific genius is quite different than artistic genius, as is evidenced by the many examples of savant artists.

Don't worry about the rambling and raving, it just supports your 99.9% IQ claim.

[TheFountain]

Well no wonder that mental problems are increasing

What´s more bothersome with this is....

Is it possible to be objective while doing an intellectual analys of something? Opinions formed through a fear state might make people a little bit judgemental, hehe.

And also if this is true, aren´t we creating a worldview through science and forgetting the human to human relation, meaning that we are objectifying ourselves and our relations and thus forgetting basic human behaviour? Which is needed if we wan´t to function on a social level!

Paradoxically I have noticed that trying to objectify everything is what leads to greater anxiety. Learning biology entails a high degree of objective thinking. This makes one hyper-aware of anatomical processes which can enhance the sense of fragility. I think the 'subjective factor' as Jung called it is necessitated for this very reason. We have to encourage subjective experience just as much as objective attainment of knowledge. I don't think a complete process of individuation is possible any other way.

[TheFountain]

Maybe intelligence combined with an unfulfilled life correlates with anxiety, but I don't think there is a general correlation. For every angst-ridden Picasso and Van Gogh (both among the greatest geniuses, and two of my favorite figures, in human history), there is a Darwin or a Mendel, both of whom apparently were very serene, particularly in their later years, yet both had undeniable massive intelligence and, of course, and MUCH more importantly, huge imagination to go along with their IQ.

And, humbly using myself as a much lesser example of imagination (though maybe not of the lesser faculty of IQ since I dont believe the greatest geniuses had particularly high IQs in general, since its all about originality):
I am a 99.9% IQ and near perfect GRE/SAT/LSAT type who has all sorts of serious social hangups and mental issues (none clinical, apparently, though I am sure I am close!), but one thing I am NOT stricken with is extreme anxiety. I just like to cruise around northern jersey nights, hit Starbucks, Whole Foods, Pearl Paints, bars on weekends, and don't really have life anxiety.

But, I do obsess on consciousness all the time, sun exposure and vegan dieting, and also paint and draw incessantly. So these may be outlets. Without them, I may turn a pistol on myself for all I know. Just my rambling rubbish worth on this.

This might have to do with typology too to some degree.

Jung coined the terms 'introvert' and 'extravert'. He also formulated sub-types for each primary type.

Examples:

Intuitive introvert, emotional introvert, intellectual introvert, sensational extravert, instinctive extravert and so on and so forth.

Of course many lines become crossed and in some cases a degree of major self reflection is required to obtain the specific answers, but I think Jung's ideas are far underused compared to those of Freud when it comes to the healing of these major gaps.

[revenant]

Choline may a big part of it. Many studies have linked anxiety and/or depression to high intelligence.

http://www.scienceda...20412153018.htm

Stress can also hinder encoding of information

http://dept.wofford....polsky-2003.pdf

http://www.google.co...0Ns1V7S64EQcDBw

[niner]

Doesn´t religion and science promote the same kind of though pattern?

How do you figure? Religion is about belief without evidence, while science is about evidence and logic. They seem pretty different to me.

[Raza]

I don't think autism spectrum correlates at all with creativity and, if anything, it appears to inversely correlate with it, that is, if you are diagnosed, your chances of being a truly creative person is probably next to zero percent.

Nah. I'm on the spectrum, and I'm pretty creative. I've known others, too.

There's a certain barrier to starting something truly new that I do associate with autism, but once a subject is breached or a goal is set possibilities flow freely.

Doesn´t religion and science promote the same kind of though pattern?

How do you figure? Religion is about belief without evidence, while science is about evidence and logic. They seem pretty different to me.

They are, so long as you're practicing them in person. For the people taking the claims of scientific or religious authorities for granted as truth the pattern is much the same.

The way we read studies here on this forum is vastly different from the way 'scientific knowledge' is commonly presented to mainstream society.

Edited by Raza, 20 June 2012 - 08:55 AM.

[nito]

well when i feel anxious i don't feel too clever, thus it impact my test results. But interesting that IQ and high anxiety can go along.

[Brafarality]

I don't think autism spectrum correlates at all with creativity and, if anything, it appears to inversely correlate with it, that is, if you are diagnosed, your chances of being a truly creative person is probably next to zero percent.

Nah. I'm on the spectrum, and I'm pretty creative. I've known others, too.

There's a certain barrier to starting something truly new that I do associate with autism, but once a subject is breached or a goal is set possibilities flow freely.

I have no doubt that you are creative. I just let the fingers do the typing and am sometimes ashamed at what is spewed when its reread a short time later. Sorry if anyone was offended.

[Raza]

No worry, it's a perfectly fair speculation - just not true, in my personal experience.

[TheFountain]

Religion is based on the objectification and perversion of the subjective factor.

It was never meant to be solidified into an organized group of outer expressions (like a religion). At such a point it becomes lifeless and banal.

The subjective factor is geared toward inner experiencing of archetypal images. There would be no art or culture without this primary function.

Therefor it can be said that it is highly misunderstood and under-appreciated in modern society.

This trend toward objectification might be blamed for a lot of the identity crises that people are experiencing now. Without that very basic, primal subjective force, you're crippled from a plethora of meanings and left never having an inkling of "who you are".

Edited by TheFountain, 20 June 2012 - 07:00 PM.