33 replies to this topic

[Infernity]

Last year when I brought up the subject of immortality to someone, he had a strange reasoning that in X years the end of the world will come. Now according to the calculation that means- year 2054=the dystopia.
Everything I said he argued I am right but too bad nothing matters due the something which shall destroy us...
Do you think he was just affected by The Fifth Element movie or something? or what religion has that argue? does anyone know what he meant? he refused to explain why, I think that that inference is irrational and based on some religion assuming.
I am very curious... any scholar?

Yours truthfully
~Infernity

[JMorgan]

I know many evangelical Christians who believe we are rapidly approaching the end times when the Antichrist will come, along with the tribulation period, rapture, the return of the Messiah, etc. But they are all pretty much in agreement that the day is NOT known by anyone but God, nor can it be predicted by anyone.

Some have used the Mayan calendar to indicate that we are near the end as well. The Mayan calendar counts down and mysteriously ends in the year 2012. (I suppose the Mayans don't need a calendar anymore anyway.)

Some have suggested there will be a major tectonic shift in the next decade or two, triggering a cataclysm that kills billions, if not everyone alive today. Scientists do agree that there will be a pole change around this time, in which north and south switch polarities. I don't know the details of what this is supposed to do, if anything.

But if you put any stock into Nostradamus and his predictions, he has dates going on for at least another 1000 years, if I'm not mistaken. (Not that I believe any of it.)

[DJS]

The meme of the "end times" has been a prevalent meme in various human civilizations through out history. For instance, in continental europe prior to the year 1000 there was a huge scare that judgement day was at hand. Even after the year 1000 had come and gone the meme still persisted for another three hundred years.

Why does the meme exist? It's the stick part of the carot and the stick. ) Every religious memecomplex will have mechanisms in place that reinforce both belief and *social cohesion*. Having the looming threat of being judged by God at any moment for all of the transgression you've ever committed would certainly make most individuals conform and be on their best behavior.

But to answer your question Infernity...yeah, the guys a wack job. There's no rational reason why he believes what he believes. He's been infected with a viral memecomplex that makes him possess irrational beliefs about reality. Sad, but not uncommon.

[advancedatheist]

Some have used the Mayan calendar to indicate that we are near the end as well.  The Mayan calendar counts down and mysteriously ends in the year 2012.  (I suppose the Mayans don't need a calendar anymore anyway.)

The Mayans didn't go extinct, though considering how they screwed up their environment and experienced a civilizational collapse, they apparently weren't that smart.

[stranger]

Malchiah,

I've read something very similar to what you're alluding to. Especially the year 2012. It's not the end of the world,though. It is the end of us being ruled by the Dark Forces(Illuminati). It is a new beginning for us earthlings and the earth itself. Atlantis will rise again,supposedly. The Earth will go from being a 3rd dimensional world to a 4th dimensional world. We'll become less dense,physically,supposedly.
They (the Intergalactic Federation)say it'll be like the Divine will bring Heaven to Earth. They talk a lot about 'first contact' en masse by the UFO's around this time,also. They will usher in a new reality. Supposedly, we'll go from having limited consciousness to having full consciousness.

All this will come to pass,according to a Sheldan Nidle of www.paoweb.com

We'll see.

stranger

[Infernity]

Thanks for the information guys...
Well but the weird thing is- he AGREED WITH ALL I SAID. But simply argued that there is no point in trying to receive immortality because we will be destroyed at any rate...
That's weird because I've also spoke with him about the non existence of gods and prejudices- which he also agreed- he's an atheist, and a materialistic as well... He was like hiding something. [huh]
I mean- he does not believe in god or any other mendacious prejudice (so he says)- so where the hell did that come from?!

Heh- 2012- that's not very far- maybe then people will start realize that religion is bullshit when they see that nothing happens.

stranger- heh was always wondering what's 4th dimensional- Hmmm maybe we'll have 8th dimensional and shadows will get 3 or something LOL [lol]

Interesting...

Yours truthfully
~Infernity

Edited by infernity, 21 March 2005 - 01:00 PM.

[Lazarus Long]

Infernity history is filled with examples of bogus end-timer predictions from the cults of the *First Millennium* to the recent Y2K fanatics. There have been panics over comets from Halley's to Kahoutek and even very real and tragic mass suicides that were associated with some of these events.

No amount of reason appears to work with these types and the fact is that their belief structures appear to hold far more weight for them than any amount of verifiable evidence to the contrary but the reason I suspect has more to do with cultish tendencies that many have for desiring to belong. The more alienated one feels the more powerful this feeling becomes as a psychosocial response.

The latest end-timer fad has to do with the Mayan Calender but this is also due to an incredibly large amount bogus extrapolations and associations of the data that is out there. It also has to do with a coincidence of history, in that the last time they predicted a crisis and end-time it worked, albeit because it was *self prophetic* and believing in the prophecies caused many people to accept Cortez as the return of the Sun God Quetzalcoatl that in turn allowed Cortez to manipulate the situation and claim that Jesus was the Sun God and usurp the the religious tenets of a theological society.

This tactic contributed to the destruction of the Aztecs and the deaths of millions of Americans in the little reported holocaust that occurred under la Conquista. With the coming of the west the PreColumbian cultures collapsed and the populations were laid waste to by political oppression, servitude, and disease.

One of the great dangers the world faces at the moment is that many of the evangelical groups that believe these end time prophecies have gained control of the reins of government. They are now basing policy for the environment, economic policy, and even political pressure based on a core belief that is apocalyptic and this is extremely hazardous to our general health and well being.

In Israel you may be familiar with how some of these Christian evangelical groups are contributing to the strife between the protagonist groups by increasing the conflict over religious sites and exacerbating the demands of fulling biblical prophecy by instigating for the return of *all* the biblical territories of the *Kingdom of Israel* so as to fulfill this end-timer belief in the requirements for *Armageddon*.

End-timers are like roaches, the more you stamp them out by applying doses of reason, fact, and obvious survival the more they seem to return again later somewhere else. Sooner or later they may get their way and perhaps no one will be left to gloat but in the meantime they would deserve more ridicule IMHO if they weren't so damn dangerous by the havoc they cause.

[Infernity]

Mmm thank you Laz. yeah *self prophetic* how could I forget... I suppose that everyday is the end of the world according to another man "prediction"- till it will really be so and he would have say "I told you" as every correct guess- but since he won't be in case of final fatal...
Gee I really have to be careful with my imagination or people will really start to believe it!

Yours truthfully
~Infernity

[armrha]

There may or may not be an end time. I consider it a pretty simple formula.

Let X be the # of humans in the world
Let A be the advancement of the technologies of destruction, a measurement of a particular weapon's destructiveness in terms of lives it will loose per detonation/release/whatever of the weapon.
Let B be the number of people in the world willing to act on a goal that they value more than their lives or the lives of others in a destructive way
Let C be the probable availbility of the destructive technology used in A.

It seems simple enough, but: If(A * B * C ) >= X, then the human race is destroyed.

For our purposes, we wouldn't even have to lose all of X for us to 'lose'. Just enough of X to destabilize the world's research towards aging would likely destroy us all in the long run.

This goes back to the common example of: 'If everyone in the world had a button in their backyard that could destroy the human race, do you think we would make it past breakfast?" This doesn't mean we are certain to die, but it does mean there are some major factors that we have to contend with. If we can reduce any one of those (A, B, or C) to very low or sufficiently low enough to be alright, then we can survive. For example:

A) Viewpoints
1) Open sourcing some dangerous technologies can allow for more efficient response to defend against an attack from them; A nation of nanotechnology experts could react to a spreading nanotech-plague faster then a military black-box could hope to (but it also produces more risk that random people will produce dangerous technologies).
2) Limiting destructive avenues of research or effectively 'keeping the genie in the bottle'? I am not sure if that is feasible without disasterously holding back the human race.

B) Only one solution here is the brainwashing or 'conditioning' of the human race to be unwilling to damage others for personal or group gain. A common transhumanist idea, of 'getting rid of our out-of-date genes', but it's still brainwashing. Another alternative might be James Halperin's idea of a truth machine. With the proper means of screening folks for everyday things like driver's licensing and stuff, we can keep those who would try to do harm away from the technologies that would give them the power, without changing human nature.

C) Thorough licesning, monitoring, and control might be able to limit the availability of this technology but you can't expect corruption to be 0%, unless we had a truth machine. The perfect lie detector would also allow them to question people requesing powerful technologies. If you really wanted to engineer a virus to destroy mankind, I'm sure there is a sufficient battery of questions that you would be unable to answer truthfully, so this would limit C pretty well.

It's important for us to keep A * B * C low if we want to survive and make it past the point to where any of them become 0 or technology becomes advanced enough to deal with itself in any kind of eventuality. But as long as these conditions are minded, I don't see any impending apocalypse.

[armrha]

It's also important to note that the evangelical, end of the world groups seem to fall under B... most disturbing.

[susmariosep]

Literary license of Infernity.


I think Infernity didn't have just one talk with one guy about the end of the world, she must have in fact talked with several guys over several meetings, who have the conviction that there is an end of the world and it is not far off.

Secondly I think that those guys with whom Infernity talked with are not really atheists, materialists, or guys who agreed with her wholeheartedly yet still insisted on an end of the world in a near future scenario.

What I mean is that Infernity made use of literary licence to create that one character who is an atheist, a materialist, who agrees with her in everything she herself is convinced of, namely, that there is no end to mankind and that immortality is at hand(?)

But why would she engage in a literary license? Nothing wrong there, it is a totally legitimate instrument in writing: to get a conversation going, to fish for information, to get confirmation of one's own positions, to assure oneself that one has more and better reasons for one's convictions than others have for theirs.

In the case of Stranger, to all appearances, the writers he cites and he himself also, they are into the most extreme of literarcy licenses. You have got to engage in their kinds of literary licenses in order to be able to talk with them on their topics with a straight face and with tongue in jowls*.

What about myself?

I think mankind will self-destruct what with guys like Bush and guys like Osama bin Laden, who can’t think of achieving security and democracy on the one part and the other political-religious autonomy and immunity of the Islamic world, on the other side, without fire and blood.

Besides, there are enough guys with the most determined of conviction that this world is not good enough for mankind, and mankind is also not in the character and situation it should really be in, unless and until the world and mankind are destroyed and restored in an improved order.

So, the sooner we have the next stage of human evolution, that of mechanized man, the better for the survival of man.

Susma

*Tongue in jowls, is that a literary license? hahahaha and hehehehe.

[lightowl]

2012 - 2054 - No no, the world will end in 2038 remember.

http://www.2038bug.com/

Planes will drop from the sky and nukes will automatically and uncontrollably detonate and all that stuff that was supposed to have happened in Y2K. But this time it WILL happen. [tung]

If not I'll figure out why when it didn't happen. [thumb]

[Infernity]

armrha,
nice view!

Susma,
I am telling you he did agree! why are you arguing?!

lightowl,
LOL yeah another inspiration [lol] .

Yours truthfully
~Infernity

Edited by infernity, 23 March 2005 - 03:01 AM.

[Infernity]

Susma,
.......................and?
What's your point?!

Yours
~Infernity

Edited by infernity, 23 March 2005 - 03:51 AM.

[DJS]

There is no point Infernity, which is why his post has been gently deposited in the Catcher.

[Infernity]

Gee I personally hate when my post is being removed to there, but- oh well, I suppose there was no point, was it?

However, heh
Yours truthfully
~Infernity

[knite]

4th dimension is time, i guess he thinks we will be able to move about in time like we do in space.

[TyroneGenade]

Ok, here is how world prophecy is gearing up for a big a change in 2012.

We begin with with where it all began: God and His corporeal form Jesus.

In Mark 11:14 Jesus curses the fig tree declaring it will never bare fruit again. The Fig Tree is the metaphor for Israel. Israel didn't accept Him so it had to be punished and the nation destroyed. This happened in AD 70 when Titus sacked Jerusalem and destroyed the Temple as fortold in Daniel 12. The metaphor is futher expounded in the parable of the tenants a few verses on... Then we move on to Mark 13:28. Here Jesus makes a lesson of the fig tree, saying that when the Fig Tree (Israel) sends out new shoots (becomes a state as explained in Ezekiel 37) this will mark the beginning of the end. Jesus goes further as to say that those of the generation recognizing this event will not pass away until His return.

Another indicator he uses is an increased frequency of earthquakes, that will increase with frequency and intensitiy like the pains of childbirth. Funny that the Olmecs and Mayans were paranoid about earthquakes...

Big question: how long is a generation? Moses says 3 score and 10, 4 score if God favours you (for some task or as a reward).

So 70 years... But when do you become mature? A man, who is able to recognize consequence? In Jewish tradtion it is 13 yrs. 70 - 13 = 57. 1948 + 57 = 2005 (Spooky... especially as the EU is implementing recommendation 666 but don't panic, John in Revelation is adamant that 666 is the name of a man).

How do we get to 2012?

In the book of Daniel you have the 70 weeks prophecy. The 70 weeks are 70 periods of 7 years. Only the last week is important, that is the last 7 years or 42 months. (Gabriel is clear to express the period of 7 years as both days and months so we don't get confused with the hole 1 day like a 1000 yrs etc...) During this time the Antichrist (who will be of Roman descent, see Daniel and Revelation) will come to power and a global false religion created.

The Antichrist will come to power under the guise of peace and will actually bring peace for a while. This is particularly prevalent in the middle east as by some miracle he makes is it possible for the Jewish temple to be rebuilt on the Temple Mt... He is joined by the 2nd Beast and the False Prophet (probably the next pope, to understand this you best brush up on your Nostradamus and St. Malachy).

1335 days into his rule (Daniel 12) something cracks and wars kicks off for 1250 days to make up the 7 years. During this time the Rome is flooded and then destroyed. The False Church moves to Babylon and the Real Church (lead by Peter the Roman) goes elsewhere... (Rev. 12: "flees into the desert away from the Dragon.") During the 1250 days the Christians and Jews are greatly persecuted for their faith in God.

Right.... we had 2005. 2005 + 7 is 2012!!! After the 7 years of the Antichrist God delivers Judgement on the earth. The faithful are raptured (Rev. 14) and all the unbelieving are punished (but God says that all who call on him for help and repent will be saved even during this time). There is a mighty battle which God wins (Isaiah 63) and the Antichrist, 2nd Beast and False Prophet are tossed into the lake of burning sulpher. The Devil/dragon is locked up in the Abyss and so starts the 1000 years of peace where according to Isaiah 65:17-- anyone who doesn't make it to 100 will of been considered to of died "young" and of been punished by God.

After the 1000 years the Devil is released to decieve as he would like and then he along with Death and the world of the dead are tossed into the lake of burning sulpher after another battle. Then all creation is undone, all the dead are resurrected and judged (except those who have died believing in Christ who are already redeemed). Then the good boys and girls go to Heaven and the bad ones burn in Hell.

Very important: we do not know the exact date!!! It may be a little after 2012 or before... who knows? The 7 years may only start in 2008 with the begining of the 1260 days being in 2012... NB: be prepared. How long God will punish the world is uncertain. Tim LeHaye and Jenkins place believe the 7 years starts with the Rapture and end with the 2nd coming but this doens't pan out. Those who make it past the 1335 days are termed "blessed" by Daniel and God only blesses those who obey him. In Rev. the Rapture occurs after teh 1260 days where after no-one is left who obeys God so how can anyone surviving the 1335 days be blessed?

Never-the-less, all prophecy is converging around this time point: 2012. God has gone out of his way to be noticed without being in-your-face-obvious. After all, where is the faith in that? 6000 yrs ago God dropped us off at School to learn, leaving us some reminders (Torah/Bible) that He will collect us when School is out. In a short time class will be finished. Have you learnt your lessons?

P.S. I'm an evolutionary biologist and don't believe the "young earth" stuff... the data doesn't support it. The 7 days creation is a metaphor like Daniel's 70 weeks. Here is how: God says 1 day is like 1000 years. God says He works for 6 days and rests on the 7th. I don't know about you. but I think God works on Sundays too. So 6 days are 6 thousand years. the first 2000 span Adam to Moses. Then 2nd 2000 span Moses to Jesus. the 3rd 2000 span Jesus to Jesus' return. Jesus says he will rise on the 3rd day. He died on the 4th day so he has to return on the 7th. The 7th day is the 1000 years of peace when God's work is done and we can rest. We should be "educated" to return to the school metaphor.

P.P.S. Why is the Mayan calnder so damn important? Quetzalcoatl. Quetzalcoatl was the civilizer of the Mayans who gave them their knowledge. But that rejected him. When he left he said he would return (and supplied a date equating to about 1518) where upon he would rescue his followers and punish those who were evil. In 1518 Cortez rocked up, introduced Christianity and dispatched the death-cult that had ousted Quetzalcoatl. so thorough was the conversion virtually nothing remains of the Aztec culture. Prophecy fullfilled with the coming of Christ.

[JMorgan]

Where to begin? [huh]

First, even Jesus said noone knows the exact time of the "end" of the world. Curiously, he even goes furthur saying that HE doesn't know when he's returning, and that it is something only the Father knows. I've seen the same calculations you are suggesting before, but they were all applied to other dates. 1988 was supposed to be the end of the world. That came and went, so people revived their calculations to make it the year 2000. Clearly, that also came and went.

But what I find interesting about your calculations is that you have 2005 marked as the beginning of the tribulation period which is impossible. The beginning of the tribulation is supposed to be characterized by peace brought about by a single leader who unifies the world in a time when there are no leaders.

I don't believe we are anywhere near a time that is described in Revelation regarding the end of the world.

HOWEVER: Something that may interest you regarding the state of things in Israel...

A group of ultra-orthodox Jews have reformed the Sanhedrin (which is the same body of Jewish leaders who tried and convicted Jesus) and they call themselves the Pharisees. [:o] They supposedly have followed the lineage all the way back to David and have chosen a King. They want to overthrow the secular government and setup a kingship over Israel. They also have all the materials in place to build the new Temple on the Temple Mount. The main problem being that it is currently occupied by the Al-Aqsa mosque and the Dome of the Rock. Anyone trying to take THAT down WILL start a war!

[Infernity]

mad_scientist, so that's still a religious 'cause... That's nonsense to me.
Hmmm, I don't remember who said it, but one member here said that what's real is what after you stop believing at- it will remain real. Oh, how true....

The Fig Tree is the metaphor for Israel

Is it really??

HOWEVER: Something that may interest you regarding the state of things in Israel...

A group of ultra-orthodox Jews have reformed the Sanhedrin (which is the same body of Jewish leaders who tried and convicted Jesus) and they call themselves the Pharisees.  They supposedly have followed the lineage all the way back to David and have chosen a King. They want to overthrow the secular government and setup a kingship over Israel. They also have all the materials in place to build the new Temple on the Temple Mount. The main problem being that it is currently occupied by the Al-Aqsa mosque and the Dome of the Rock. Anyone trying to take THAT down WILL start a war!

Goodness, mad_scientist and Joel,
Lately I seem to get that everyone knows much more than me about where I live [:o]
Since I've join the forums I get always new education on Israel, and gee that's my home!

Yours truthfully
~Infernity

[eternaltraveler]

So 70 years... But when do you become mature? A man, who is able to recognize consequence? In Jewish tradtion it is 13 yrs. 70 - 13 = 57. 1948 + 57 = 2005 (Spooky... especially as the EU is implementing recommendation 666 but don't panic, John in Revelation is adamant that 666 is the name of a man).

How do we get to 2012?

In the book of Daniel you have the 70 weeks prophecy. The 70 weeks are 70 periods of 7 years. Only the last week is important, that is the last 7 years or 42 months. (Gabriel is clear to express the period of 7 years as both days and months so we don't get confused with the hole 1 day like a 1000 yrs etc...) During this time the Antichrist (who will be of Roman descent, see Daniel and Revelation) will come to power and a global false religion created.

Well it’s my 666th post. I’m sure this works into the prophecy somehow too…. )

The book of revelations is not a prophecy at all. It is a fancified historical account. The roman emperor Nero Caesar was the beast, and his name was 666.

The writer of the book of revelations, John, wrote for his contemporaries. Indeed, the book makes an incredible amount of sense if applied to events in that time period. The last days refers not to the last days of the world literally, but to the last days of the old covenant.

[lightowl]

70 x 7 Hmmm...

7+0 = 7
2+0+0+5 = 7
6+6+6 = 18 >> 1-8 = -7

Coincidence? I think not

[JMorgan]

Lately I seem to get that everyone knows much more than me about where I live [:o]

Here's another little tidbit about Israel.

The majority of the land was pretty infertile before 1948. That's part of the reason nobody wanted it back then. The nomadic Beduins were the only ones who really knew how to cultivate the land. When Israel was formed, the Jewish people made the land flourish.

On the Mount of Olives directly across from the Temple Mount in Jerusalem, there are olive trees that "came alive" in 1948 without being planted. It was considered by some to be a miracle so they put a church there. (The "miracle" trees are the ones enclosed by the fence to the left of the entrance.)

Testing on these trees found them to be far older than 1948, suggesting that they had to have been planted as fully grown trees without anyone noticing. But believers suggest that they were alive once, supposedly around the time of Christ, but died when he died and came alive again in 1948. How they figured that out, I don't know.

Attached Files

•  Church.jpg   100.1KB   0 downloads

[Infernity]

Heh Elrond, you claim to be a devil, I claim you are the nicest devil I've ever known [lol]

lightowl, people get led astray because of numbers. I can tell you if we'd go like things have meaning according to numbers- I can find those divinity's things in everything. That's bullshit... Don't fall for number cases- that's everywhere. All you have to do is seek for it...

Joel,
Be surprised- I did know that

Yours truthfully
~Infernity

[lightowl]

(infernity)

lightowl, people get led astray because of numbers. I can tell you if we'd go like things have meaning according to numbers- I can find those divinity's things in everything. That's bullshit... Don't fall for number cases- that's everywhere. All you have to do is seek for it...

Exactly my point. I found the "coincidences" with little effort to show how easy numbers are to manipulate. Just like stories are easy to interpret to suite any cause. I probably should have made it more obvious that I was joking, but hey. Maybe I have lead some fool on a wild goose chase. That's just how I am.

[Infernity]

Heh ok, yeah after that, lightowl

2012 - 2054 - No no, the world will end in 2038 remember.

http://www.2038bug.com/

Planes will drop from the sky and nukes will automatically and uncontrollably detonate and all that stuff that was supposed to have happened in Y2K. But this time it WILL happen. [tung]

If not I'll figure out why when it didn't happen. [thumb]

I understood you are rational

Yours truthfully
~Infernity

[eternaltraveler]

Those olive trees certainly looked pretty darn old when I saw them

[Infernity]

Naa, their just ugly [tung]
Hehe kidding Elrond, just kidding. Yeah most are somewhat old...

Yours truthfully
~Infernity

[thughes]

Wish I could find the original paper. Its paraphrased in here:

http://www.crawford2000.co.uk/maya.htm

The end date of the Mayan calendar has an astronomical meaning. I was quite happy to find that one.

I'm looking forward to 2038, lots of money to be made. But my prediction is this: since we actually solved the Y2K problem early enough, so all the dire predictions didn't happen, few will do anything at all about 2038 since Y2K proved to the population at large that its not a real problem. Wheee fireworks.

-Mey

[lightowl]

I doubt anything dramatic will happen in 2038. We are already moving from 32bit to 64bit compilers today. Most of which has 64bit handling of date and time information. It will take quite a few years before all systems are 64bit, but I think 30 years will be more than enough. It may even be that we are not even using digital systems by that time.

In any case the bug will begin causing problems gradually as forward calculated dates will cause overflow in 32bit systems. This can already happen today. Any system based on 32bit date calculations will fail when resulting in a date beyond 2038. So if you get a membership with 35 year expiration, chances are that the computer will mess up the date.

All in all, it will not be a cataclysm but a slow incremental bug fixing period where most systems will adapt before the critical overflow date.