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US Supreme Court upholds "Obamacare"

obamacare healthcare commerce clause supreme court scotus

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Poll: SCOTUS decision (19 member(s) have cast votes)

GOOD news for life extension...?

  1. Yes (5 votes [26.32%])

    Percentage of vote: 26.32%

  2. No (13 votes [68.42%])

    Percentage of vote: 68.42%

  3. Other (below) (1 votes [5.26%])

    Percentage of vote: 5.26%

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#1 caliban

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Posted 28 June 2012 - 07:27 PM


Attached File  scotus.jpg   90.19KB   11 downloads


Interesting departure on the Commerce Clause:

ROBERTS: Construing the Commerce Clause to permit Congress to regulate individuals precisely because they are doing nothing would open a new and potentially vast domain to congressional authority. Congress already possesses expansive power to regulate what people do. Upholding the Affordable Care Act under the Commerce Clause would give Congress the same license to regulate what people do not do. The Framers knew the difference between doing something and doing nothing. They gave Congress the power to regulate commerce, not to compel it. Ignoring that distinction would undermine the principle that the Federal Government is a government of limited and enumerated powers. The individual mandate thus cannot be sustained under Congress’s power to “regulate Commerce.”



Victory for libertarians and life extension advocates?

Entire judgement:
Attached File  11-393c3a2.pdf   778.75KB   1 downloads

#2 Mind

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Posted 28 June 2012 - 10:01 PM

Victory for libertarians and life extension advocates?


I think you mis-understand the term libertarian. The law is awful from a true libertarian perspective. The U.S. government has now been given carte blanche to require anyone to buy anything they deem necessary. The constitution of the U.S. is supposed to restrain the government from such tyrannical action. I know that the decision calls the mandate a tax, but it is only semantics. I think it is terrible for life extension advocates. The U.S government ruins almost everything it touches.

Edited by caliban, 29 June 2012 - 01:39 AM.
quote fixed

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#3 niner

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Posted 29 June 2012 - 03:24 AM

I think you mis-understand the term libertarian. The law is awful from a true libertarian perspective. The U.S. government has now been given carte blanche to require anyone to buy anything they deem necessary. The constitution of the U.S. is supposed to restrain the government from such tyrannical action. I know that the decision calls the mandate a tax, but it is only semantics. I think it is terrible for life extension advocates. The U.S government ruins almost everything it touches.


Would you have felt differently about it if it were an unabashed single-payer system funded by taxes? This is the "free market" solution that was originally proposed by Republicans. I think Roberts went out of his way to make the point that the government doesn't have carte blanch to require anyone to buy anything they deem necessary. The USG ruining almost everything it touches doesn't seem to be supported by a lot of fact, but it is deeply held in some quarters.

I had to think a bit about whether or not this was good for LE. I decided that anything that nudged the healthcare system toward more sanity was a plus. I also think this could have a positive effect on the economy in that it will allow people to change jobs more easily, providing more flexibility in the labor force, and make it safer for people to build their own businesses without fear of having no coverage, thus improving entrepreneurialism. It may also allow people who wish to take early retirement to do so, thus opening up positions for people who want them. There should be fewer bankruptcies, the largest cause of which (at least in normal times) is medical expenses.

Edited by niner, 29 June 2012 - 03:34 AM.

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#4 mikeinnaples

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Posted 29 June 2012 - 01:47 PM

Victory for libertarians and life extension advocates?


Can you explain to me why you think this is a victory for libertarians? To me, this is the exact opposite.

In regards to whether or not it is a good thing for life extension, I would have to say no and disagree with Niner. My concerns are quality of care.

Edited by caliban, 29 June 2012 - 06:28 PM.
quote fixed


#5 nowayout

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Posted 29 June 2012 - 02:52 PM

In regards to whether or not it is a good thing for life extension, I would have to say no and disagree with Niner. My concerns are quality of care.


I don't see anything in there that will significantly affect quality either way, and there are several countries with universal health care that have significantly better quality of care than the U.S. In any case, could you please explain how it is not good for life extension in the case of people who cannot currently afford or access health care because of, say, economic reasons or preexisting conditions? Try not to be too selfish now.
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#6 niner

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Posted 29 June 2012 - 03:26 PM

Just as an example, there are scientists working in the pharmaceutical industry who might now feel more comfortable going out and starting a life extension oriented business, whereas in the past they might have feared finding themselves uninsurable or unable to get affordable insurance as a "pool" of one. Believe me, I know a lot of people for whom healthcare is dominant in their work decisions. I think economic improvements like this will trump any possible consequences of lower quality care, since I don't really see a huge impact on quality of care, and don't think that the conventional medical system has much to do with life extension anyway. They just blow a lot of money on dying people without fixing what's really wrong with them- their aging and damaged cells.
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#7 mikeinnaples

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Posted 29 June 2012 - 04:50 PM

Try not to be too selfish now.


I am not sure how to respond to this or if I should even bother.
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#8 Mind

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Posted 29 June 2012 - 05:40 PM

Try not to be too selfish now.


I am not sure how to respond to this or if I should even bother.


Don't bother, IMO.
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#9 caliban

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Posted 29 June 2012 - 06:46 PM

Can you explain to me why you think this is a victory for libertarians? To me, this is the exact opposite.


Firstly, I don't "think" - I just raised the question. :sleep:

The thought has occurred to professors of constitutional law, based on the court's treatment of the commerce clause.

If you are a US libertarian of the 'statist' variety you might also find joy in the restriction on Medicaid policy.

#10 Luminosity

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Posted 30 June 2012 - 04:27 AM

This is very bad news in reality. I'm very mad about it. And it is not supported by law or the constitution. That is not a "tax."

I support the goal of insuring more people but this won't really do that in any good way. Sometimes if you have nothing good to offer people, leaving them alone is the best you can do.

As for what Justice Roberts was up to, he might erroneously believe that he is helping people, like he is starting Social Security. Only people who have never had contact with the business end of Medicaid would be able to believe that. This is the problem with having a government run by privileged people. They are lacking crucial pieces of information.

I notice the smiling faces of some who support Obamacare on the TV shows. Everyone of them has good private health insurance. They have no idea of the Kafka-esque nightmare that awaits people who don't have that privilege. Many medical supply businesses will not take Medicaid and will not take cash from Medicaid patients. If you ask Medicaid for instance, which wheelchair stores will accept Medicaid, they say they don't know. If you call the stores directly, they will remember your voice and will not deal with you. Because of things like this, when I had secondary Medicaid coverage, I just paid out of pocket for some expenses because it wasn't even o.k. to ask if certain suppliers would take Medicaid.

Many doctors won't see people who have Medicaid, and will not take their cash. Almost no dentists will take Medicaid patients and will not see them for cash. If a doctor will see a Medicaid patient, it may be to use them as teaching tools, without their knowledge or consent. My friend had reconstructive surgery by a well-known surgeon. He happened to have operated on several of my other friends with good results. On this friend, who had Medicaid, he brought in two medical students to do the work, without really explaining to her what was going on. It it didn't go well. She didn't even finish all the procedures and goes around with part of her body half-formed.

If you have to choose between car repairs, or food and health insurance, how ridiculous is that? Will uninsured people have to go underground like illegal aliens? Will doctors be forced to document your insurance status? Will some just elect to do that? What about wholistic people who pay for all their care out of pocket anyway? Will spending thousands on unused health care be required of them?

Edited by Luminosity, 30 June 2012 - 05:01 AM.


#11 MrHappy

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Posted 30 June 2012 - 11:11 AM

My view as an outsider: Take a look at every other civilised western country and you'll find they all have universal health care. In fact, I'd actually call it a staple hallmark of western civilisation. As an Australian, I am both disgusted and amazed that some Americans have been brainwashed into thinking it's a bad thing! Look at Canada, Australia, NZ, Sweden, Denmark, Switzerland, UK or most members of the EU -treating healthcare as a basic human right is a smart and sensible idea. America's current healthcare system is a joke to anyone but 50% of the typical American consumers. Now, couple that with the nutritional quality of the average American diet and it's a recipe for disaster and bankruptcy. How many unreported Americans put off treating simple diseases for fear of the cost? Tax isn't a bad thing if it goes into common/shared infrastructure. Roads, schools, hospitals, etc are all good examples. Thinking you have 'freedom', by paying lower taxes is a logical fallacy, particular when you look at your current militarised, ill-educated, police force, plus propaganda machine.. sorry.. media and political system. You already have large corporate.. sorry.. government controls in place, yet you consider yourselves free.. Yes. Free to go bankrupt. Free to be homeless. Notice that neither of these states preclude you from government control. You are also free to be f*cked over by your own system. Americans suffer their government possibly more than any other western civilisation and yet some of you still consider yourselves 'land of the free!' .. OK, granted that was once the case, but you are deluding yourself if you still think you still live in a semblance of that shared dream. Might as well reap some of the benefits of having a large government and construct a basic safety net for yourself and your fellow Americans. Global experiences have shown it might just make your part of the world a nicer, safer place. :)
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#12 Mind

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Posted 30 June 2012 - 12:40 PM

My view as an outsider: Take a look at every other civilised western country and you'll find they all have universal health care. In fact, I'd actually call it a staple hallmark of western civilisation. As an Australian, I am both disgusted and amazed that some Americans have been brainwashed into thinking it's a bad thing! Look at Canada, Australia, NZ, Sweden, Denmark, Switzerland, UK or most members of the EU -treating healthcare as a basic human right is a smart and sensible idea. America's current healthcare system is a joke to anyone but 50% of the typical American consumers. Now, couple that with the nutritional quality of the average American diet and it's a recipe for disaster and bankruptcy. How many unreported Americans put off treating simple diseases for fear of the cost? Tax isn't a bad thing if it goes into common/shared infrastructure. Roads, schools, hospitals, etc are all good examples. Thinking you have 'freedom', by paying lower taxes is a logical fallacy, particular when you look at your current militarised, ill-educated, police force, plus propaganda machine.. sorry.. media and political system. You already have large corporate.. sorry.. government controls in place, yet you consider yourselves free.. Yes. Free to go bankrupt. Free to be homeless. Notice that neither of these states preclude you from government control. You are also free to be f*cked over by your own system. Americans suffer their government possibly more than any other western civilisation and yet some of you still consider yourselves 'land of the free!' .. OK, granted that was once the case, but you are deluding yourself if you still think you still live in a semblance of that shared dream. Might as well reap some of the benefits of having a large government and construct a basic safety net for yourself and your fellow Americans. Global experiences have shown it might just make your part of the world a nicer, safer place. :)


The U.S. government is awful, as you correctly point out, so it would seem illogical to put them in control of healthcare. The typical U.S. diet is awful, as you correctly point out, which along with higher violent crime and accident rates, accounts for nearly all of the disparity between average lifespans between the U.S. and countries with more strictly controlled government healthcare. Most people who need basic/simple-type care in the U.S. are also the people who eat crap and are obese. They don't need to see the doctor, they need to see a nutritionist. Also, countries with government controlled health care are running up huge debts and going broke (Greece, Spain, EU, etc...) It will be interesting to see how that "fundamental human right" holds up when the money runs out. Do you think there will be restrictions on healthcare? Will pensions or vacation time be cut first?

Also, it is hard to understand how it is a fundamental human right, when smokers are being denied treatment in the UK, and heart surgery patients in Quebec die while waiting for their treatment? It doesn't seem like a fundamental human right if it can just be taken away? In the U.S. the traditional view of "rights" are natural rights - what a person is born with (you can speak, walk/travel, associate with whom you like, you own what you personally grow/create). These cannot be taken away, except through force and the threat of deadly violence. In many other legal traditions, it seems "rights" are whatever politicians dream-up and promise to the population. These things can be modified and taken away (especially when the money runs out).

Also, you are correct that the U.S. is not the "land of the free". It is becoming the most militarized nation on the planet. On average, the government is grossly inefficient and incompetent. What is really scary is that the laws and regulations are extremely voluminous and complex while at the same time arbitrary. It is estimated that the average U.S. citizen commits 3 felony crimes everyday just going about their daily business. We are all sitting ducks, just waiting to get "shot" by corrupt prosecutors, police, or politicians. And for those who are unlucky enough to get caught in an arbitrary legal trap, the U.S. penalties are the stiffest and most punitive among advanced nations. It is unconscionable that so many millions of non-violent people are sitting in prison.

Now just come back to Obamacare. It is a vast and complex set of new rules/laws for getting insurance and medical treatment in the U.S. It creates new huge bureaucracies to handle all of the new regulations. Considering it is a broke, violent, and incompetent government, I hope you can see why some people in the U.S. might be opposed.

Pragmatically speaking, it would be better if it was a simple single payer taxed system. The proper way to do this in the U.S. would be to add the tax to the constitution, such as the income tax was added. That way, people would actually have a direct vote on the issue, instead of the being forced to accept the crap coming out of Washington D.C. right now. that way the people could decide for themselves if it was a "right". Pragmatically, the single payer-tax system would be simpler, but I would still vote no, for the reasons stated earlier. If it is not a natural right, then it can be taken (or voted away). Also, government handouts create dependency. I have always viewed a better future as one where as many people as possible were independent able to care for themselves, families, and communities.
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#13 niner

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Posted 30 June 2012 - 01:21 PM

And it is not supported by law or the constitution.


It is now.

[Medicaid is horrible]


No one is being forced to use Medicaid. If they want to buy good insurance, they're allowed to, and now it will actually be possible. Premiums will be subsidized for low income people, no?

If you were a struggling parent making twenty grand a year, and you had a kid with pneumonia, or you had it yourself, you would be damn glad to have Medicaid coverage. Do you prefer to go to the ER, run up a huge bill, and then stiff the rest of us for it? That's what happens now. Everyone else is forced to pay for that uncompensated care, in the form of higher out of pocket costs and/or higher premiums. That is a "tax", too. It's a "mandate". We don't have a choice. No one consulted the constitution, because insurance companies don't give a crap about the constitution. The only thing they do give a crap about is profit. End of story. Why is everyone so cool with that, but so mortified that a better system is being put in place that is more beneficial to the citizenry? Do you think you have "freedom" when your life is controlled by a faceless bureaucrat at the insurance company whose only job it is is to deny you care? That's some freedom. Freedom to die...

#14 maxwatt

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Posted 30 June 2012 - 02:49 PM

This is no radical socialist health care law; it is the Republican proposal for health care from the eighties. The individual mandate was dreamed up by the Heritage Foundation. Of course it's a bad plan. Though an improvement on what we had two years ago, I admit.

What most commentators overlook is that private companies greatest uncontrolled expense it health insurance for their employees. As soon as they have the option of dumping it on the insurance exchanges that states are supposed to set up they will. What the states provide will be increasingly less profitable for private insurance companies. If health insurance companies survive they will become more like public utilities, unless the country decides medicare ain't so bad and provides it to everyone regardless of age.

The only reason this is controversial at all is that ever since Obama was elected Republicans have decided to oppose him at any cost, as well as everything he has tried to do regardless of whether it makes sense of not. ( It often doesn't.) They have a very potent spin machine bloviating mostly irrational propoganda. It's been four years of poor losers trying to take their ball and go home. (I hope to soon have an opportunity to come down on Democrats.)

#15 Mind

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Posted 30 June 2012 - 05:46 PM

Maxwatt, just remember that every bill that has been approved since 2010, every single item that has come out of congress, has been bi-partisan.

#16 MrHappy

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Posted 30 June 2012 - 11:28 PM

In Australia, we pay a 1.5% tax, which covers medicare and we have the option of private healthcare insurance, which means you don't pay the 1.5% tax. Private healthcare means you don't have the same waiting times, etc., but even without it, you can go to the emergency and not have to wait unreasonably. Most doctors 'bulk-bill' te government, which means there are no out-of-pocket expenses. We then have the PBS, which subsidizes the cost of pharmaceuticals *substantially*. It may not be a completely perfect system - sometimes there are complaints that there aren't enough nurses or beds and the media picks it up and the government does something about it, but even with our current hung parliament and 'crappy' government in power, it works well. If you get sick, the last thing you have to think about is money, perhaps just managing your absence from work, etc. With the EU examples of countries like Spain and Greece - their country is in the financial toilet. This isn't because of universal healthcare, it's a much more complex and cultural problem. If they collapse, it'll be more than just the healthcare system that will have major problems. In Australia, we tax cigarettes *heavily* to cover the cost of healthcare later in life for those people.

#17 Mind

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Posted 01 July 2012 - 12:03 PM

In Australia, we pay a 1.5% tax, which covers medicare and we have the option of private healthcare insurance, which means you don't pay the 1.5% tax. Private healthcare means you don't have the same waiting times, etc., but even without it, you can go to the emergency and not have to wait unreasonably. Most doctors 'bulk-bill' te government, which means there are no out-of-pocket expenses. We then have the PBS, which subsidizes the cost of pharmaceuticals *substantially*. It may not be a completely perfect system - sometimes there are complaints that there aren't enough nurses or beds and the media picks it up and the government does something about it, but even with our current hung parliament and 'crappy' government in power, it works well. If you get sick, the last thing you have to think about is money, perhaps just managing your absence from work, etc. With the EU examples of countries like Spain and Greece - their country is in the financial toilet. This isn't because of universal healthcare, it's a much more complex and cultural problem. If they collapse, it'll be more than just the healthcare system that will have major problems. In Australia, we tax cigarettes *heavily* to cover the cost of healthcare later in life for those people.


There are many examples of countries with smarter and more effective governing bodies that the U.S. could copy....but they don't. There are many countries which have a more transparent and simple method of paying for and delivering "universal" healthcare, that the U.S. could copy...but they don't. As I mentioned earlier, I wouldn't mind having a national vote to add healthcare as a "right" under the U.S. constitution. With something as important as my health and life, I would prefer to have a say in it, instead of having the president and congress dream some crap up and force it upon me. I don't think it is an unreasonable request. The same goes for social security in the U.S., which is another welfare system, it is not a national pension, it is not "retirement" program, it is the ultimate ponzi scheme which is going broke. In Chile, people contribute to their own government managed "retirement" fund. It works. It is solvent. Don't look for the clueless government of the U.S. to change and adopt the Chilean-style system anytime soon.

One thing to remember as well, is that the U.S. is a large and diverse nation. It is not a stretch to say it is the most diverse nation on earth. When you have so many different ethnicities, religions, cultural traditions, lifestyles, and diets, it is much harder to run a NATIONAL health care system. Smaller countries with more homogeneous populations are much easier to manage. In the U.S., it would probably be easier to manage if each state had its own health system.

#18 MrHappy

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Posted 01 July 2012 - 12:19 PM

Sigh.. Yes, but do the goverments ever get input from the population before enacting laws? They bloody should, but they never do. We recently got a 'carbon tax', after the current prime minister's campaign promise was that there wouldn't be one... Australia also has something similar to social security (we call it 'the dole'/centrelink). We also have 9% employer + voluntary self contributions into managed retirement funding (called superannuation), but have the option for a self-managed fund. You could come live over here, if America gets too unsafe / militarised. :)
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#19 MrHappy

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Posted 01 July 2012 - 12:21 PM

Oh.. and we have an old-age pension, in case your superannuation income doesn't suffice. :)
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#20 Mind

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Posted 01 July 2012 - 12:41 PM

Sigh.. Yes, but do the goverments ever get input from the population before enacting laws? They bloody should, but they never do. We recently got a 'carbon tax', after the current prime minister's campaign promise was that there wouldn't be one... Australia also has something similar to social security (we call it 'the dole'/centrelink). We also have 9% employer + voluntary self contributions into managed retirement funding (called superannuation), but have the option for a self-managed fund. You could come live over here, if America gets too unsafe / militarised. :)


Thanks for the invite. Australia and NZ are on my short list of alternative residence.
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#21 niner

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Posted 01 July 2012 - 01:02 PM

There are many examples of countries with smarter and more effective governing bodies that the U.S. could copy....but they don't. There are many countries which have a more transparent and simple method of paying for and delivering "universal" healthcare, that the U.S. could copy...but they don't.

This is what a lot of Democrats wanted, but it was total anathema to the Republicans.

The same goes for social security in the U.S., which is another welfare system, it is not a national pension, it is not "retirement" program, it is the ultimate ponzi scheme which is going broke.

It is a semi-welfare system. It's not funded by the rich, because there's always been a fairly low cap on SS taxes- wages beyond a little over a hundred K are not taxed. And dividends and cap gains aren't taxed at all. It's a rich man's dream.
It is absolutely NOT a ponzi scheme. It needs to be periodically tweaked to maintain long term solvency. We've done it before and we will probably do it again if congress can stop being idiots for a few hours.

One thing to remember as well, is that the U.S. is a large and diverse nation. It is not a stretch to say it is the most diverse nation on earth. When you have so many different ethnicities, religions, cultural traditions, lifestyles, and diets, it is much harder to run a NATIONAL health care system. Smaller countries with more homogeneous populations are much easier to manage. In the U.S., it would probably be easier to manage if each state had its own health system.

States run their own Medicaid systems, but I guess the feds have required coverage. I'm not sure this diversity argument really flies. Are we that genetically diverse that we create inefficiencies in the health care system? I'd love to not have to pick up the tab for obese soda drinkers, but they come from all ethnic groups and cultures. I'd love to not have to pick up the tab for the war in Iraq, but I don't get that choice, either.

#22 Mind

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Posted 01 July 2012 - 06:30 PM

I hate to be a stickler Niner, but the U.S. social security system is a ponzi scheme by any definition (wikipedia for example). Current beneficiaries are paid by money from current contributors. New "investors" are needed, otherwise it would collapse. This is the old age benefit I am talking about not SSDI, which is more easily defined as welfare. I know what many people want it to be and hope for social sceurity to be, but that is not reality. it is not the Australian system (which works) or the Chilean system (which works), it is the U.S. system that is a ponzi, is insolvent, and will only get worse. I know it is sold as a "retirement system" by corrupt vote-seeking politicians here in the U.S. but it is not. The SSA website even says it is not. The U.S. supreme court even says it is not. The sooner people open their eyes, the sooner the U.S. might get a system that works.

By the way, here is the best video I have ever seen to explain U.S. social security and the infamous "trust fund". In the place of Jim Carey, just insert the President or Congress claiming that IOUs are as good as money, lol.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7GSXbgfKFWg

Edited by Mind, 01 July 2012 - 06:31 PM.

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#23 Luminosity

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 03:50 AM

Mr. Happy, your system sounds pretty good. You don't understand that the government in the US won't try to set up a good system. They will just bilk people on behalf of the insurance companies. For instance, if you make more than $14,000 a year, you will not be eligible for free insurance. And you can be fined for not having any. And it could well cost $500-$1,000 a month for insurance. And you need to read my earlier post about the free government insurance we have now. It will be like that.
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#24 MrHappy

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 02:26 PM

We think so. :)
Although someone very patriotic reading this thread doesn't agree and got butthurt about Australia having better living conditions.They downvoted the whole slew of posts regarding it. <chuckle>
Mind, I've balanced yours back to zero.
Apologies to whoever was butthurt. Feel free to join in the conversation rather than drive-by downvoting.
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#25 Mind

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 04:37 PM

Hmmm, I am old-school, I can't say that I have ever looked at the votes here anyway.
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#26 TheFountain

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 09:40 PM

In regards to whether or not it is a good thing for life extension, I would have to say no and disagree with Niner. My concerns are quality of care.


I don't see anything in there that will significantly affect quality either way, and there are several countries with universal health care that have significantly better quality of care than the U.S. In any case, could you please explain how it is not good for life extension in the case of people who cannot currently afford or access health care because of, say, economic reasons or preexisting conditions? Try not to be too selfish now.


Thank you, I was waiting for someone to actually mention low income people.

We all know that what Obamacare really amounts to is medical welfare for the poor. And I think that is absolutely better than no care for the poor. I don't get the level of self centeredness in this community sometimes when it comes to such matters.

In my opinion if LE is to make any sense at all it has to make sense for more than just the ego. It has to make some sort of transcendental sense beyond the self. Otherwise what's the point? Living selfishly is living in a state of denial.

Edited by TheFountain, 02 July 2012 - 09:40 PM.

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#27 nowayout

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 01:54 AM

Try not to be too selfish now.


I am not sure how to respond to this or if I should even bother.


Seriously, that was all you got out of it? That was not even the the question...

Edited by viveutvivas, 03 July 2012 - 01:55 AM.

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#28 rwac

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 03:31 AM

We all know that what Obamacare really amounts to is medical welfare for the poor. And I think that is absolutely better than no care for the poor.


You have heard of this little program called Medicaid, yes?

Edited by rwac, 03 July 2012 - 03:32 AM.


#29 maxwatt

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 05:48 AM

Mr. Happy, your system sounds pretty good. You don't understand that the government in the US won't try to set up a good system. They will just bilk people on behalf of the insurance companies. For instance, if you make more than $14,000 a year, you will not be eligible for free insurance. And you can be fined for not having any. And it could well cost $500-$1,000 a month for insurance. And you need to read my earlier post about the free government insurance we have now. It will be like that.

Right. The insurance companies love the Heritage Foundation plan, also known as Obamacara. It forces thousands and thousands of new customers to buy from them, albeit it caps their profits at 15% ... the rest must be spent on actual care.

#30 maxwatt

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 06:03 AM

I hate to be a stickler Niner, but the U.S. social security system is a ponzi scheme by any definition (wikipedia for example). Current beneficiaries are paid by money from current contributors. New "investors" are needed, otherwise it would collapse. This is the old age benefit I am talking about not SSDI, which is more easily defined as welfare. I know what many people want it to be and hope for social sceurity to be, but that is not reality. it is not the Australian system (which works) or the Chilean system (which works), it is the U.S. system that is a ponzi, is insolvent, and will only get worse. I know it is sold as a "retirement system" by corrupt vote-seeking politicians here in the U.S. but it is not. The SSA website even says it is not. The U.S. supreme court even says it is not. The sooner people open their eyes, the sooner the U.S. might get a system that works.

By the way, here is the best video I have ever seen to explain U.S. social security and the infamous "trust fund". In the place of Jim Carey, just insert the President or Congress claiming that IOUs are as good as money, lol.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7GSXbgfKFWg


I disagree, side with niner here: When Social Security was enacted the life expectancy at retirement age was about five years. It is now more than double that. Raising the retirement age to track greater life expectancy, or having a rapidly increasing population of young workers would easily solve that actuarial problem, and in fact steps have been taken to do so. Secondly, restoring the Bush tax cuts would more than make up for projected SSI deficits for years to come. If you object to treating all government income as fungible, consider that raiding the social security fund to pay for general expenses happened under Rupubnican administrations, albeit with lots of Democrap support. The continued defunding of the US government combined with hyper-inflationary spending has been a hallmark of Repubnican administrations since Reagan; It is of course a coordinated plot by the John Birchers and Dixicrat Reppubnicant wing.... Headed by the Koch brothers..... Obama is in on it. By presenting a weak pseudo-left position, he leaves no choice to oppose the forces of the counter-enlightenment but to support a figure who is also in on the game. Heads they win, tails we lose.

Be that as it may, a society will ultimately be judged by how it treats the least among them. By that standard the US is no longer a Christian nation, but a nation of heretics.

(If there is anyone whose views I haven't offended, please tell me and I will try again.)
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