12 replies to this topic

[Hougary]

I did something very stupid.
I binged on phenibut for 5 weeks at doses between 6 and 9 grams a day.
Should I go cold turkey or should I taper it down?
If I should taper will it prolong my withdrawal?
And how fast would you suggest the taper should be?
I'm also on sam-e, rhodiola rosea, valerian, l-theanine, l-glutamine and l-tyrosine.
Also on a daily multivitamine and mineral complex.

[medievil]

Get some baclofen for a week, after that you can stop it and shouldnt feel any withdrawals anymore.

[Hougary]

Thank you for the answer.
I can't get ahold of baclofen.
It's a pharmaceutical, and I can't import it in Norway.
The customs opens the pack and sends it back, as always.

[medievil]

Can you get benzo's somehow? perhaps a script for a week only from a local doc? Those 2 things are the easiest options, withdrawals can be quite painfull otherwise.

[Hougary]

Again, thank you.
I'm a recovering benzo addict, and abuser.
I used to take extreme amounts of benzos and zopiclone.
So I don't dare take those kind of drugs again, and I highly doubt my doctor would prescribe me them, as he knows of my past abuse.
I even abused Lyrica (up to 5 grams daily) and Neurontin (up to 12 grams daily), which phenibut reminds me of.
Which makes me even more stupid for messing with phenibut, I thought I could handle it.
I thought I would take 6 grams today, 4.5 grams tomorrow, then 3 grams, then 1.5, then 0.9, then 0.6 and final day 0.3.
A fast 7 day taper.

Edited by Hougary, 28 July 2012 - 10:22 AM.

[renfr]

Again, thank you.
I'm a recovering benzo addict, and abuser.
I used to take extreme amounts of benzos and zopiclone.
So I don't dare take those kind of drugs again, and I highly doubt my doctor would prescribe me them, as he knows of my past abuse.
I even abused Lyrica (up to 5 grams daily) and Neurontin (up to 12 grams daily), which phenibut reminds me of.
Which makes me even more stupid for messing with phenibut, I thought I could handle it.
I thought I would take 6 grams today, 4.5 grams tomorrow, then 3 grams, then 1.5, then 0.9, then 0.6 and final day 0.3.
A fast 7 day taper.

12g of gabapentin?! How come you're still alive?
But yes, it is imperative that you taper phenibut if you don't want to experience severe withdrawal symptoms. I suggest supplementing taurine, magnesium, L-theanine to alleviate the withdrawal. Then you can add bacopa monnieri to your stack in order to renew your GABA receptors which I presume were massively screwed up by such amounts.

[protoject]

Then you can add bacopa monnieri to your stack in order to renew your GABA receptors which I presume were massively screwed up by such amounts.

I was wondering.. does it upregulate Gaba-B receptors as it does gaba-a receptors?

Also my 2 cents is that if you can, get your hands on some Oxcarbazepine. I had very bad benzo/ phenibut withdrawals where I literally could sleep maybe 30 minutes a night for a week and I was trippin hard. Through self experimentation and a bit of research I found out that oxcarbazepine works to alleviate the withdrawal in this situation [not completely, but it is helpful. Personally i would skip the supplements so there aren't any confounding factors, unless it's something that obviously won't cause any problems, like magnesium]. Had to learn the hard way lol. I hope that it could work for you and that you can get it.

If you're not sure what oxcarbazepine is, it's a mood stabilizer as well as an anticonvulsant, i think it has a similar mechanism to lithium but a bit different

Edited by protoject, 28 July 2012 - 05:03 PM.

[renfr]

Then you can add bacopa monnieri to your stack in order to renew your GABA receptors which I presume were massively screwed up by such amounts.

I was wondering.. does it upregulate Gaba-B receptors as it does gaba-a receptors?

Also my 2 cents is that if you can, get your hands on some Oxcarbazepine. I had very bad benzo/ phenibut withdrawals where I literally could sleep maybe 30 minutes a night for a week and I was trippin hard. Through self experimentation and a bit of research I found out that oxcarbazepine works to alleviate the withdrawal in this situation [not completely, but it is helpful. Personally i would skip the supplements so there aren't any confounding factors, unless it's something that obviously won't cause any problems, like magnesium]. Had to learn the hard way lol. I hope that it could work for you and that you can get it.

If you're not sure what oxcarbazepine is, it's a mood stabilizer as well as an anticonvulsant, i think it has a similar mechanism to lithium but a bit different

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/20821261
That's the study of Bacopa interaction with GABA. The drug their administered seems to downregulate GABA-A subunits only, at least they don't talk about GABA-B.
Maybe Bacopa upregulates GABA-B, afterall this study doesn't say the contrary, they only discuss of GABA-A.
However all of GABA might in fact be upregulated, this medical sheet shows that there is a strong link between GABA and 5HT through neuronal pathways : http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC3306740/

We used two validated psychopharmacological method Y-maze test to quantify depression-like and anxiety-like behavior induced by the decreased GABA receptors in the cerebral cortex of the epileptic rats. Our study showed decreased exploratory behaviour in epileptic rats and treatment using Bacopa monnieri and bacoside-A brings back the exploratory behaviour to near control. This can be correlated with the decreased GABA receptors in the cerebral cortex of the epileptic rat interaction through 5-HT pathways. Immobility in rats is considered to be a state of lowed mood or hopelessness which the rodent experience when they are forced to explores in a constrained space from they cannot escape. There are multiple interactions between central GABA and 5-HT pathways, and some of these interactions provide a theoretical framework in which changes in cortical GABA function can lead to some aspects of disrupted 5-HT function seen in depressed patients [53,54]. In addition, interactions between 5-HT and GABA offer a route by which 5-HT targeted treatments might alter GABA function to bring about their therapeutic effect [55]. Nigel et al., [56] have suggested shared neurobiological processes leading both to seizures and to behavioral, emotional and cognitive disturbance which could possibly explain the how Bacopa monnieri is effective as an anti-convulsant and an anti-depressant. Carbamzepine treatment to epileptic rats also showed a similar effect.

This is quite interesting, even more interesting as you mentioned oxcarbazepine that is a derivate of carbamazepine with less side effects such as EEG slowing, this drug also upregulates GABA the same way as Bacopa which is why it is used as an anticonvulsant but also as a tinnitus cure.
Bacopa being a strong actor on the 5HT system, this link between 5HT and GABA probably explains why it is effective for upregulation. But I guess oxcarbazepine is much more stronger and should be used in case of withdrawals (acamprosate sold as Campral is also potent in alcool withdrawal, might be worth a try as well, in fact it's just N-acetyl homotaurine, a derivate of taurine with acetyl group that increases passage to BBB) while Bacopa is better on long term issues.

Edited by renfr, 28 July 2012 - 11:11 PM.

[Introspecta]

Skip a day of taking it, let the dopamine rebound pass or whatever type of rebound it is, it may suck a little, get some beers or something. Then when thats past taper down from 2-4 grams, whatever the lowest amount is that will avoid withdrawals. Tapering phen is actually pretty easy. Baclofen isn't really that great to help tapering because the half life is alot shorter. So skip day, then go 4,3,2,2,1,1,0.5 You'll prob start noticing withdrawals when you get to 1 gram. If you do it right you can pretty get off with minimal withdrawals. Benzo's would be key. Or soma but its hard to get soma these days.

[Hougary]

Thank you for all the answers.
Ordered some bacopa, containing 450 mg 20% bacosides.
How long after my last dose will the withdrawal become apparent?
I've read 36 hours some other place, 24 hours others and 12 hours another place.
It's been almost 18 hours since my last dose, and I feel fine.

[renfr]

Thank you for all the answers.
Ordered some bacopa, containing 450 mg 20% bacosides.
How long after my last dose will the withdrawal become apparent?
I've read 36 hours some other place, 24 hours others and 12 hours another place.
It's been almost 18 hours since my last dose, and I feel fine.

Depends how much was your last dose, phenibut half life is reported to be 5 hours but since you've been using it chronically the doses are accumulating.
you take 8g at 8AM today, at 8AM tomorrow you still have over 250mg (with supposed 5 hours half life), considering you've been doing that for many weeks you probably still have several grams in your body minus your last dose.
So yes 24 hours, 36 hours or maybe even 48 hours before first symptoms appear, it gives you enough time to prepare the withdrawal.
If they sell pyritinol (enhanced vitamin B6) OTC in your country you should take some (brands are Encephabol, Cerbon 6), it is known to reduce hangovers for alcohol, it's surely the same for phenibut or any other GABA agonist.
Magnesium should be taken too to appease glutamate surge, taurine is also potent in that domain. Ginkgo biloba has well is reported to reduce glutamate surge.
L-theanine for sedation and calmness without GABA agonism might be used as well.
As for Bacopa it's just for long-term chemical equilibrium, it usually take some weeks before it really acts however some users experience massive sedation or even drowsiness at first use. I did experience that but racetams cancelled out the effect.

Edited by renfr, 29 July 2012 - 03:29 PM.

[Introspecta]

I typically start feeling withdrawals between 24-36 hours. Once that hits its 2 pretty bad days then it gets better. If I start my detox monday, sunday being the last day I used I'm am usually good to go by friday. I've been in full blown phenibut withdrawal from mega doses and used a combination of theanine, valerian, passionflower and chamomile to combat intense anxiety and it usually worked. That is when I didn't taper. If I taper I usually only have 1 or 2 days of withdrawal.

[moleface]

I've had a lot of success with stacking mild GABAergics to deal with phenibut withdrawal.

When I go off daily phenibut, I take a mix of valerian, lemon balm, catnip, chamomile and niacinamide. This seems to pretty effectively block most of the symptoms. You'll still feel crappy and diminished, but it's not that bad. From my experience, I don't even have that much trouble sleeping during phen wd, as long as I'm taking that mix of supplements along with melatonin or diphenhydramine at bedtime.

You might also want to look into the herbal SSRI kanna, which helps counter the feeling of malaise I get from phenibut detox.

Personally, I don't even bother tapering down anymore when I go off phenibut - I just stop outright and then compensate with the supplements I've mentioned. That's just me though, and cold turkey off GABAergics isn't normally recommended.

Edited by moleface, 01 August 2012 - 03:54 PM.