150 replies to this topic

[hamishm00]

Here is Vincent Giuliano's take ( a knowledgable guy who's blog I follow )
quote : PQQ is the only dietary supplement that can activate PGC1-alpha, and thus unleash it's chain of beneficial results including enhanced Sirt3 expression and mitochondrial biogenesis.

Sorry I don't mean to flame you, but this is what Vince G says:

"PQQ is not the only dietary supplement that can activate PGC-1alpha and therefore unleash its chain of beneficial results including enhanced SIRT3 expression and mitochondrial biogenesis. Resveratrol and quercetin and other substances in my anti-aging firewalls dietary supplement regimen, can also do this. And yet-other substances including the drug rapamycin can also enhance PGC-1alpha expression(ref)."

[Turnbuckle]

Here is Vincent Giuliano's take ( a knowledgable guy who's blog I follow )
quote : PQQ is the only dietary supplement that can activate PGC1-alpha, and thus unleash it's chain of beneficial results including enhanced Sirt3 expression and mitochondrial biogenesis.

Sorry I don't mean to flame you, but this is what Vince G says:

"PQQ is not the only dietary supplement that can activate PGC-1alpha and therefore unleash its chain of beneficial results including enhanced SIRT3 expression and mitochondrial biogenesis. Resveratrol and quercetin and other substances in my anti-aging firewalls dietary supplement regimen, can also do this. And yet-other substances including the drug rapamycin can also enhance PGC-1alpha expression(ref)."

Copy/paste failure?

[Kevnzworld]

Here is Vincent Giuliano's take ( a knowledgable guy who's blog I follow )
quote : PQQ is the only dietary supplement that can activate PGC1-alpha, and thus unleash it's chain of beneficial results including enhanced Sirt3 expression and mitochondrial biogenesis.

Sorry I don't mean to flame you, but this is what Vince G says:

"PQQ is not the only dietary supplement that can activate PGC-1alpha and therefore unleash its chain of beneficial results including enhanced SIRT3 expression and mitochondrial biogenesis. Resveratrol and quercetin and other substances in my anti-aging firewalls dietary supplement regimen, can also do this.
And yet-other substances including the drug rapamycin can also enhance PGC-1alpha expression(ref)."

Copy/paste failure?

I shouldn't read, type copy and paste on my iPad while watching TV! VG's take on PQQ is interesting. I have to check and see if he's added it to his regimen yet.

[dear mrclock]

unless pqq has very noticable effect in quick amount of time, this whole debate about it is stupid. nobody is in interested in supplements that you have to take for a year in high doses to notice any effect. its either you feel it when you take a high dose or you dont. dont waste yout time and money guys.

[Kevnzworld]

unless pqq has very noticable effect in quick amount of time, this whole debate about it is stupid. nobody is in interested in supplements that you have to take for a year in high doses to notice any effect. its either you feel it when you take a high dose or you dont. dont waste yout time and money guys.

Like most supplements discussed here, I don't take PQQ for some quick noticable effect. I take it for it's potential to help me live a longer and more healthy life. I'm suspect of personal anecdotal accounts of a supplements potential to have an immediate, noticeable effect. I do think that some will effect blood test results however. That's why the studies are so important. Each particular individual supplement may have a subtle long term physiological impact, but it's difficult to measure. Without the studies, we would just be relying on anecdotes and conjecture.
As it is, there are widely differing opinions even given the evidence.

[dear mrclock]

all im saying is, you cant possibly relay on some supplement for the rest of your life. its basically addiction but probably not as detrimental as some other forms associated with this behavior. only similarity to drug addictions that are detrimental is the MONEY ISSUE.

[hamishm00]

That's like saying you shouldn't rely on food all your life because it costs money and if you eat it all the time you are basically an addict.

I'm quite comfortable with spending money on, and consuming, certain supplements till I die - I made the decision to take these supplements based not on a short term benefit, but based on long term, overall wellness.

[smithx]

all im saying is, you cant possibly relay on some supplement for the rest of your life. its basically addiction but probably not as detrimental as some other forms associated with this behavior. only similarity to drug addictions that are detrimental is the MONEY ISSUE.

Do you have some evidence that PQQ causes some kind of dependency?

So far, we haven't seen any evidence that the really low doses being sold today, like 10mg/d do anything at all.

[Turnbuckle]

all im saying is, you cant possibly relay on some supplement for the rest of your life. its basically addiction but probably not as detrimental as some other forms associated with this behavior. only similarity to drug addictions that are detrimental is the MONEY ISSUE.

Do you have some evidence that PQQ causes some kind of dependency?

So far, we haven't seen any evidence that the really low doses being sold today, like 10mg/d do anything at all.

If it is a vitamin, then a deficiency would certainly do something.

[hamishm00]

I think the studies show that there could be such a thing as a PQQ deficiency (PQQ deficiency affects mitochondrial function in mice). In that sense it might be a vitamin.

Although note the comments of Chris Anthony DSc. Emeritus Professor of Biochemistry (School of Biological Sciences, University of Southampton):

"No mammalian PQQ-containing enzyme (quinoprotein) has been described. If such an enzyme does exist then PQQ would almost certainly be a vitamin [analogous to riboflavin, needed in the diet for production of essential flavoproteins]. Such an enzyme was reported in Nature in 2003, leading to the claim for the discovery of the first new vitamin for 55 years. This claim was based on some basic misunderstandings of enzymes, protein structure and databases. We have been involved in refuting this claim."


"..their claim was based on sequence analysis of an enzyme, predicted to be involved in mouse lysine metabolism, which showed that part of the protein has a ‘propeller fold', which is a feature of all PQQ-dependent dehydrogenases. What the evidence actually suggests is that their (predicted) protein is an interesting novel protein part of which has a propeller structure; but there is no evidence that it is a PQQ-dependent dehydrogenase. In essence their argument is this: Our mouse protein has a ‘propeller’ structure [true]; All PQQ-containing proteins have a propeller structure [true]; Therefore our protein contains PQQ [false]. This is the equivalent of the well known false argument: All trees are green; My coat is green; My coat is a tree.

"When I pointed out to the journal Nature that their high reputation was being used to justify investments of millions of dollars in the development of PQQ as a vitamin, they investigated the original paper, agreed with our objections and published our argument against it (Felton & Anthony, Nature Vol. 433, 2005). They also published (alongside ours) a paper by Rucker disagreeing with the conclusions of Kasahara and Kato on nutritional grounds, concluding “that insufficient information is available so far to state that PQQ uniquely performs an essential vitamin function in animals”.
It should also be noted that the enzyme which Kasahara and Kato claim to be involved in lysine breakdown does not occur in mice; it is an irreversible enzyme involved in the opposite process of lysine biosynthesis in yeast. The whole of this part of their paper is biochemical nonsense."

Edited by hamishm00, 27 September 2012 - 01:36 PM.

[anagram]

I find it frightening that people taking PQQ them feel any different, but my BLISTERING experiences with it may just be beacuse of my rather unusual route of administration.

I sublingualy take(life extension brand 10 MG CAPSULES) PQQ, putting a small amount of the powder under my tounge(less than 1/10 the capsule). After a few seconds of having the pink powder resting between my gums and tounge I begin to feel a strange sensation followed by an spark of intellegnece that no other supplement i have tried gives. I never really get any effect out of swallowing the capsule because I have hypothiseized, the bacteria in your gut use it before it reaches your blood stream. In my opinion, dont waste your money, sublingual is the way to go!

As a little word of warning, dont get crazy playing with PQQ. I personally began using vitamine c to reduce methylene blue and decided to add vitamine c to PQQ to reduce it. after adding 500 mg of vitamine c The PQQ solution went from PINK to GREEN to DARK RED! me and my curious mind decided to drink down this concotion in hopes of having extreme effects, however I felt half of what i normally feel from the plain powder under my tounge. I dont want to mess around with my DNA or histones so I decided the unreduced form of PQQ is probebly the safest solution. I would like to see some studies on reduced PQQ versus PQQ however I just dont think I want a person being the test subject.

Edited by anagram, 08 October 2012 - 12:15 AM.

[Turnbuckle]

I find it frightening that people taking PQQ them feel any different, but my BLISTERING experiences with it may just be beacuse of my rather unusual route of administration.

I sublingualy take(life extension brand 10 MG CAPSULES) PQQ, putting a small amount of the powder under my tounge(less than 1/10 the capsule). After a few seconds of having the pink powder resting between my gums and tounge I begin to feel a strange sensation followed by an spark of intellegnece that no other supplement i have tried gives. I never really get any effect out of swallowing the capsule because I have hypothiseized, the bacteria in your gut use it before it reaches your blood stream. In my opinion, dont waste your money, sublingual is the way to go!

As a little word of warning, dont get crazy playing with PQQ. I personally began using vitamine c to reduce methylene blue and decided to add vitamine c to PQQ to reduce it. after adding 500 mg of vitamine c The PQQ solution went from PINK to GREEN to DARK RED! me and my curious mind decided to drink down this concotion in hopes of having extreme effects, however I felt half of what i normally feel from the plain powder under my tounge. I dont want to mess around with my DNA or histones so I decided the unreduced form of PQQ is probebly the safest solution. I would like to see some studies on reduced PQQ versus PQQ however I just dont think I want a person being the test subject.

In mice it seems to be readily absorbed--

About 28 micrograms of PQQ (0.42 microCi/mumol), labeled with 14C derived from L-tyrosine, was administered orally to Swiss-Webster mice (18-20 g) to estimate absorption. PQQ was readily absorbed (62%, range 19-89%) in the lower intestine, and was excreted by the kidneys (81% of the absorbed dose) within 24 hr.

http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/1850522

And here's an article relevant to your final paragraph--

Kinetic study of the quenching reaction of singlet oxygen by Pyrroloquinolinequinol (PQQH(2), a reduced form of Pyrroloquinolinequinone) in micellar solution.

[anagram]

I find it frightening that people taking PQQ them feel any different, but my BLISTERING experiences with it may just be beacuse of my rather unusual route of administration.

I sublingualy take(life extension brand 10 MG CAPSULES) PQQ, putting a small amount of the powder under my tounge(less than 1/10 the capsule). After a few seconds of having the pink powder resting between my gums and tounge I begin to feel a strange sensation followed by an spark of intellegnece that no other supplement i have tried gives. I never really get any effect out of swallowing the capsule because I have hypothiseized, the bacteria in your gut use it before it reaches your blood stream. In my opinion, dont waste your money, sublingual is the way to go!

As a little word of warning, dont get crazy playing with PQQ. I personally began using vitamine c to reduce methylene blue and decided to add vitamine c to PQQ to reduce it. after adding 500 mg of vitamine c The PQQ solution went from PINK to GREEN to DARK RED! me and my curious mind decided to drink down this concotion in hopes of having extreme effects, however I felt half of what i normally feel from the plain powder under my tounge. I dont want to mess around with my DNA or histones so I decided the unreduced form of PQQ is probebly the safest solution. I would like to see some studies on reduced PQQ versus PQQ however I just dont think I want a person being the test subject.

In mice it seems to be readily absorbed--

About 28 micrograms of PQQ (0.42 microCi/mumol), labeled with 14C derived from L-tyrosine, was administered orally to Swiss-Webster mice (18-20 g) to estimate absorption. PQQ was readily absorbed (62%, range 19-89%) in the lower intestine, and was excreted by the kidneys (81% of the absorbed dose) within 24 hr.

http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/1850522

And here's an article relevant to your final paragraph--

Kinetic study of the quenching reaction of singlet oxygen by Pyrroloquinolinequinol (PQQH(2), a reduced form of Pyrroloquinolinequinone) in micellar solution.

thank you for these studies! however they still dont change the fact that when I take PQQ sublingually, I can sense it mentally. perhaps because the mice have less mass and fewer cells in comparison to a human being,the PQQ is better absorbed and moves throughut their bodys. and i dont think there are any studies in regard to receptor bindig of PQQ(h2) rather than PQQ, so the reduced form's effects are still up to debate

oh and i forgot to add that when i grow vegetables in a solution of it, i get a long lasting effect similar to what PQQ on its own would give but much better.

Edited by anagram, 08 October 2012 - 01:00 AM.

[Turnbuckle]

I find it frightening that people taking PQQ them feel any different, but my BLISTERING experiences with it may just be beacuse of my rather unusual route of administration.

I sublingualy take(life extension brand 10 MG CAPSULES) PQQ, putting a small amount of the powder under my tounge(less than 1/10 the capsule). After a few seconds of having the pink powder resting between my gums and tounge I begin to feel a strange sensation followed by an spark of intellegnece that no other supplement i have tried gives. I never really get any effect out of swallowing the capsule because I have hypothiseized, the bacteria in your gut use it before it reaches your blood stream. In my opinion, dont waste your money, sublingual is the way to go!

As a little word of warning, dont get crazy playing with PQQ. I personally began using vitamine c to reduce methylene blue and decided to add vitamine c to PQQ to reduce it. after adding 500 mg of vitamine c The PQQ solution went from PINK to GREEN to DARK RED! me and my curious mind decided to drink down this concotion in hopes of having extreme effects, however I felt half of what i normally feel from the plain powder under my tounge. I dont want to mess around with my DNA or histones so I decided the unreduced form of PQQ is probebly the safest solution. I would like to see some studies on reduced PQQ versus PQQ however I just dont think I want a person being the test subject.

In mice it seems to be readily absorbed--

About 28 micrograms of PQQ (0.42 microCi/mumol), labeled with 14C derived from L-tyrosine, was administered orally to Swiss-Webster mice (18-20 g) to estimate absorption. PQQ was readily absorbed (62%, range 19-89%) in the lower intestine, and was excreted by the kidneys (81% of the absorbed dose) within 24 hr.

http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/1850522

And here's an article relevant to your final paragraph--

Kinetic study of the quenching reaction of singlet oxygen by Pyrroloquinolinequinol (PQQH(2), a reduced form of Pyrroloquinolinequinone) in micellar solution.

thank you for these studies! however they still dont change the fact that when I take PQQ sublingually, I can sense it mentally. perhaps because the mice have less mass and fewer cells in comparison to a human being,the PQQ is better absorbed and moves throughut their bodys. and i dont think there are any studies in regard to receptor bindig of PQQ(h2) rather than PQQ, so the reduced form's effects are still up to debate

I thought your observation was interesting so I tried it (with the PQQ salt). There might have been an effect but I couldn't be sure. I'll try it again tomorrow morning if I remember.

Edited by Turnbuckle, 08 October 2012 - 12:59 AM.

[anagram]

PQQs effects are compounded over time and if you use it a few days in a row you will feel it more and more strongly each time. great stuff. but i would really recommend throwing a little on the inside of a tomato or somthing, and letting it sit for a few minutes, so that the cells in the tomato begin using it to produce compounds that promote cellular regenesis and growth, chemicals that the human body itself cannot produce.

[Hebbeh]

I was interested too. I use both uridine and resveratrol sublingually with great effect. I have been using 10mg PQQ in the morning on an empty stomach for a long time....maybe a year. I did use 20mg in divided dose for a while. Anyway, I dumped the contents of a 10mg capsule under my tongue. Unlike the uridine and resveratrol, it didn't seem to dissolve and absorb very well. However, I had been feeling a little tired and it did seem to have a slight energizing effect and made me a little more alert. Not a huge noticeable effect though. Both uridine and resveratrol seem to have a stronger effect sublingually in this regard. I will try again tomorrow.

Edited by Hebbeh, 08 October 2012 - 01:28 AM.

[anagram]

i would really keep using it every day, because the effects of PQQ compound on one another. you can dissolve PQQ in liquid as well but it takes a bit of stiring.
I beleive the enrgizing feeling may be in part that PQQ increases CREB which increases mir-132 which is your bodys endogenous acetylcholineesterase inhibitor, so using it in the morning is great. the only downside of morning usage is that you feel way to speedy and personally it is a bit to intense for me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MiR-132

Edited by anagram, 08 October 2012 - 01:39 AM.

[dear mrclock]

PQQs effects are compounded over time and if you use it a few days in a row you will feel it more and more strongly each time. great stuff. but i would really recommend throwing a little on the inside of a tomato or somthing, and letting it sit for a few minutes, so that the cells in the tomato begin using it to produce compounds that promote cellular regenesis and growth, chemicals that the human body itself cannot produce.

lol whats the point of putting it on a tomato ? "so that the cells in the tomato begin using it to produce compounds that promote cellular regenesis and growth" what does that do for your benefit ??

[mitomutant]

I sublingualy take(life extension brand 10 MG CAPSULES) PQQ, putting a small amount of the powder under my tounge(less than 1/10 the capsule). After a few seconds of having the pink powder resting between my gums and tounge I begin to feel a strange sensation followed by an spark of intellegnece that no other supplement i have tried gives. I never really get any effect out of swallowing the capsule because I have hypothiseized, the bacteria in your gut use it before it reaches your blood stream. In my opinion, dont waste your money, sublingual is the way to go!

This is interesting, but weird. Mitochondrial biogenesis cannot possibly have such an inmediate effect. placebo? some other effect attributable to PQQ ?

[Turnbuckle]

I tried the sublingual PQQ again this morning--twice--and the first time a got a slight head rush after about two minutes, but it was so slight and fleeting--just a few seconds--that I can't say it was real. The second time I got nothing at all. But I accept there may be something in what anagram experienced, as PQQ has more functions than just promoting biogenesis. It is known, for instance, to affect neuronal NMDA receptors, and those receptors are involved in learning and memory.

[anagram]

i have been doing sublingual for awhile and i will tell you that the first time i did it i had a fleeting feeling that lasted for only a few seconds and a strange feeling for a few minutes afterward. I then continued to do this for a few more days until i beleive i developed some sort of tolerance, but now after taking a few breaks, when i do it i can really notice the PQQ. another way to really feel PQQ is putting it on a sliced tomato, the tomato uses the PQQ to generate new compounds that help it grow. I think there was an article on pub med talking about a plant generated analouge of PQQ that had another acetyl group attatched to one of the nitrogen atoms, protecting the molecule from damage and increasing its bio avaliability. unfortunatly, they dont sell this form of PQQ and the only way to make it is plant synthesis. tomatos work well because they taste good and will soak up the PQQ sprinkled on it(its a growth factor for them you know), prehaps generating another form of PQQ.


some evidence for alternate forms of PQQ, prehaps lasting longer
http://www.ncbi.nlm....igure/fig5/ original article --- > http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/18055583

also if you look up PQQ analouges on google images, there are several that look like they might last longer.




edit-- yah putting the powder on a sliced tomato is kinda weird, but growing a hydroponics tomato isent. I have a little grow op where i have a tomato plant in nothing but water, nutrients, and PQQ. the tomatos that grow from this method are much better tasting than normal ones, but if you dont have the time to do that, the next time you make a salad or somthing and are cutting vegetables, if you sprinkle a little PQQ on the plants, they taste 5x better.

Edited by anagram, 08 October 2012 - 10:45 PM.

[dear mrclock]

got some finally. i put the powder under the tongue as it was suggested and i didnt feel anything at all except i looked in the mirror and my tongue, whole mouth turned dark blue. was weird. couldnt wash it off for a long time. i took the rest of the pill orally and still no effect 8 hours later. either way, if it makes my mouth so dark blue, i cant imagine what my insides would look like over a long period of time taking that shit :/

[Kevnzworld]

got some finally. i put the powder under the tongue as it was suggested and i didnt feel anything at all except i looked in the mirror and my tongue, whole mouth turned dark blue. was weird. couldnt wash it off for a long time. i took the rest of the pill orally and still no effect 8 hours later. either way, if it makes my mouth so dark blue, i cant imagine what my insides would look like over a long period of time taking that shit :/

So what are you hoping to accomplish by taking PQQ sublingually? It won't help you " feel " better....I take B12 sublingually, it makes my tongue turn bright red, so what! ..I wouldn't take anything , without knowing the biological mechanism of action and the rational for it's use, but that's just me.

http://www.lef.org/m...=search&key=PQQ

Edited by Kevnzworld, 12 October 2012 - 05:27 AM.

[dear mrclock]

ugh thats where i learned about pqq from those lef guys. anyway i did it cuz if you scroll and see some of the posts here, it is mentioned it worked sublingual more so than swallowing that shit.
btw try sublingual b12 with alcohol, it has weird stimulatory effect lol

[Turnbuckle]

got some finally. i put the powder under the tongue as it was suggested and i didnt feel anything at all except i looked in the mirror and my tongue, whole mouth turned dark blue. was weird. couldnt wash it off for a long time. i took the rest of the pill orally and still no effect 8 hours later. either way, if it makes my mouth so dark blue, i cant imagine what my insides would look like over a long period of time taking that shit :/

You do know the difference between MB and PQQ?

[dear mrclock]

there are different compounds. thats all i know really

[anagram]

what ever you put on your tounge, it wasent PQQ. PQQ is pink, and an antioxidant derived from yeast, not shit. putting it under your tounge has a very mild stimulatory effect which is why i suggested taking it that way instead of the normal route(by passing your gut.)

[niner]

there are different compounds. thats all i know really

You probably shouldn't be putting random compounds in your body if you don't know what they are.

[dear mrclock]

what ever you put on your tounge, it wasent PQQ. PQQ is pink, and an antioxidant derived from yeast, not shit. putting it under your tounge has a very mild stimulatory effect which is why i suggested taking it that way instead of the normal route(by passing your gut.)

i know its pink man. the powder inside the capsule was PINK. it just turned blue when i put it under the tongue and waited. its the brand from LEF so i thought its good quality who knows. pqq so far seems like shit to me

there are different compounds. thats all i know really

You probably shouldn't be putting random compounds in your body if you don't know what they are.

wasnt random. i used pqq which i see lots of good things written about. i never did MB and thats not MB what i did

[anagram]

hmm thats pretty wierd, the turning your tounge blue thing is very strange, can you post a pic?