22 replies to this topic

[stablemind]

I'm currently using 2x the mental effort to write this post than I would usually use if I slept at 130AM, instead of 3AM like I did last night. I've noticed that no matter how long I sleep, the time I sleep is just as important.

Current regiment:

Bright light therapy
50mg Seroquel ER at night
600mg Lithium ER at night

The problem is it's impossible to sleep at a set time every single night so I've been trying to find some solutions.

I tried taking lithium regularly at the same time each night which seems to have an effect, and it's affect on the circadian rhythm has been documented so go figure. The problem is if I sleep past a certain time limit, which seems to be 2PM, the depression still sets in the next day, which manifests itself in irritability, lack of pleasure. And yes, 1-2 hours DOES make that much of a difference. I also notice that as the day goes on, I start getting more irritable. The swings tend to happen at night now.

I tried taking melatonin as well, but to no avail. Light therapy the next day doesn't help much either if I slept late.

Does anyone know other medications that may alter the circadian rhythm?

[jadamgo]

What time did you take the melatonin, and was it timed-release? If not, it's no surprise that it wouldn't work right. (Nobody talks about this, but it's simple to piece this information apart from the relevant scientific data.) You need to take a timed-release melatonin (or a melatonin agonist like ramelteon, tasimelteon, or agomelatine) somewhere from 6-2 hours before your bedtime. (More specifically, about 3-4 hours before DLMO.)

The Life Extension brand timed-release melatonin is unbelievably well-priced, and it's quite effective. It's a lifesaver for my delayed sleep phase syndrome, which can set off a relapse of seasonal affective disorder at any time of the year if I'm sleeping through enough daylight hours. (Unfortunately, they don't make the time-release mechanism like they used to, and it's a rather sloppy hour-long release instead of the smooth 2-3 hour release I used to find so impressive.)

Here's something you may find interesting: For all bipolar people, it's even more important to do bright light therapy at the same time every day than to take lithium at the same time every night. You've got to expose yourself to that light in the right way.

[sam7777]

http://www.endotext....enalframe27.htm

Ashwagandha
Calamus
Schizandra
Bacopa
Trace Minerals
Dawn Aerobic Exercise
Nature and Wilderness
Sour Jujube Seed
Vitamin D
Heavy Metal Detoxification
Sauna Therapy
Meditation

[MrHappy]

Uridine is both *excellent* for BPD and manipulates circadian rhythms.

[stablemind]

What time did you take the melatonin, and was it timed-release? If not, it's no surprise that it wouldn't work right. (Nobody talks about this, but it's simple to piece this information apart from the relevant scientific data.) You need to take a timed-release melatonin (or a melatonin agonist like ramelteon, tasimelteon, or agomelatine) somewhere from 6-2 hours before your bedtime. (More specifically, about 3-4 hours before DLMO.)

The Life Extension brand timed-release melatonin is unbelievably well-priced, and it's quite effective. It's a lifesaver for my delayed sleep phase syndrome, which can set off a relapse of seasonal affective disorder at any time of the year if I'm sleeping through enough daylight hours. (Unfortunately, they don't make the time-release mechanism like they used to, and it's a rather sloppy hour-long release instead of the smooth 2-3 hour release I used to find so impressive.)

Here's something you may find interesting: For all bipolar people, it's even more important to do bright light therapy at the same time every day than to take lithium at the same time every night. You've got to expose yourself to that light in the right way.

it was instant release, why would time release matter? The LE one on iherb is 6 hours, is this better?

Uridine is both *excellent* for BPD and manipulates circadian rhythms.

Please explain? Also which brand would you recommend on iherb?

Edited by stablemind, 01 September 2012 - 07:27 AM.

[MrHappy]

It's being explored in multiple human clinical trials as a treatment for BPD. It acts on multiple aspects. One excellent benefit for BPD is that it acts as a 'clamp' on dopamine release (around baseline - stops the upswing and the downswing without creating new issues). It repairs and replenishes neural lipid membranes and increases dopamine receptor densities.

Additionally, when taken at night it assists circadian rhythm / signalling.

There are a lot of other benefits.

If you've got time, perhaps have a read through the big thread in Brain Health.

There are 2 common supplements - UMP and TAU. UMP (Uridine-5'-monophosphate) is the better option when taken sublingually.

Preferred supplier for a few members here is http://superiornutraceuticals.com (despite the look of the website, their products are good.)

[stablemind]

It's being explored in multiple human clinical trials as a treatment for BPD. It acts on multiple aspects. One excellent benefit for BPD is that it acts as a 'clamp' on dopamine release (around baseline - stops the upswing and the downswing without creating new issues). It repairs and replenishes neural lipid membranes and increases dopamine receptor densities.

Additionally, when taken at night it assists circadian rhythm / signalling.

There are a lot of other benefits.

If you've got time, perhaps have a read through the big thread in Brain Health.

There are 2 common supplements - UMP and TAU. UMP (Uridine-5'-monophosphate) is the better option when taken sublingually.

Preferred supplier for a few members here is http://superiornutraceuticals.com (despite the look of the website, their products are good.)

I skimmed through the thread. I'm interested in the Uridine-5'-Monophosphate disodium 25 Grams they are selling since it's relatively cheap. So I should take this sublingually? I have fish oil in the 2:1 ratio of 400EPA:200DHA. Are these two supplements enough for my situation to start with?

I read that you recommend .5-5g uridine per day correct? Also you mentioned 700mg of DHA, which equates to 4 capsules of fish oil? Also what's the choline for? Could you summarize it? I understand that it's involved in memory and too much of it can cause depression so I'm a little bit hesitant to take it.

Thanks

[Thorsten3]

Agomelatine might be worth a try for both issues.

I also once had success with a controversial supplement known as indium sulphate. It without doubt had efficacy in circadian issues I suffered with at the time. I don't take it anymore as I feel it's not worth the risk taking something with hardly any data.

[MrHappy]

It's being explored in multiple human clinical trials as a treatment for BPD. It acts on multiple aspects. One excellent benefit for BPD is that it acts as a 'clamp' on dopamine release (around baseline - stops the upswing and the downswing without creating new issues). It repairs and replenishes neural lipid membranes and increases dopamine receptor densities.

Additionally, when taken at night it assists circadian rhythm / signalling.

There are a lot of other benefits.

If you've got time, perhaps have a read through the big thread in Brain Health.

There are 2 common supplements - UMP and TAU. UMP (Uridine-5'-monophosphate) is the better option when taken sublingually.

Preferred supplier for a few members here is http://superiornutraceuticals.com (despite the look of the website, their products are good.)

I skimmed through the thread. I'm interested in the Uridine-5'-Monophosphate disodium 25 Grams they are selling since it's relatively cheap. So I should take this sublingually? I have fish oil in the 2:1 ratio of 400EPA:200DHA. Are these two supplements enough for my situation to start with?

I read that you recommend .5-5g uridine per day correct? Also you mentioned 700mg of DHA, which equates to 4 capsules of fish oil? Also what's the choline for? Could you summarize it? I understand that it's involved in memory and too much of it can cause depression so I'm a little bit hesitant to take it.

Thanks

Choline can be antidopaminergic (some types). Recommendation for you, initially -

Morning:
250-350mg UMP, *orally*
GOOD multi vitamin, that includes b group and trace minerals
500IU of mixed vitamin E
A large dose of fish oil with >700mg DHA + >300mg EPA (other forms available if you are vegetarian)

Evening:
250-350mg UMP, *orally*

See how you respond after 1-2 weeks. If you find you aren't getting results, try a sublingual dose of UMP. Conversely, if your day is less vibrant, try a lower dose.

[stablemind]

Agomelatine might be worth a try for both issues.

I also once had success with a controversial supplement known as indium sulphate. It without doubt had efficacy in circadian issues I suffered with at the time. I don't take it anymore as I feel it's not worth the risk taking something with hardly any data.

I may give this a try after the Uridine.

http://www.iherb.com...120-Tablets/380

I got this multi which has plenty of trace minerals. I read the reports on Uridine and I'm pretty impressed. I've always known it helps with depression but i never knew the reports were so extensive. Does this help memory as well? My short term memory is jacked up.

[MrHappy]

Agomelatine might be worth a try for both issues.

I also once had success with a controversial supplement known as indium sulphate. It without doubt had efficacy in circadian issues I suffered with at the time. I don't take it anymore as I feel it's not worth the risk taking something with hardly any data.

I may give this a try after the Uridine.

http://www.iherb.com...120-Tablets/380

I got this multi which has plenty of trace minerals. I read the reports on Uridine and I'm pretty impressed. I've always known it helps with depression but i never knew the reports were so extensive. Does this help memory as well? My short term memory is jacked up.

Sure does.. however this will also be from the improved sleeping patterns, to a certain extent.

[stablemind]

Agomelatine might be worth a try for both issues.

I also once had success with a controversial supplement known as indium sulphate. It without doubt had efficacy in circadian issues I suffered with at the time. I don't take it anymore as I feel it's not worth the risk taking something with hardly any data.

I may give this a try after the Uridine.

http://www.iherb.com...120-Tablets/380

I got this multi which has plenty of trace minerals. I read the reports on Uridine and I'm pretty impressed. I've always known it helps with depression but i never knew the reports were so extensive. Does this help memory as well? My short term memory is jacked up.

Sure does.. however this will also be from the improved sleeping patterns, to a certain extent.

Thanks. Looking forward to this!

[jadamgo]

it was instant release, why would time release matter? The LE one on iherb is 6 hours, is this better?

Time release is very important for melatonin. Its half-life is only about 45 minutes. To effectively shift your circadian rhythm, you want a low dose in your brain for a long time.

The LE time-released melatonin is great. It's what I use. I prefer the 300mg to the 700mg, but that decision is up to you, not me.

Just be sure to use it at the right time -- 3-5 hours before bedtime.

[stablemind]

it was instant release, why would time release matter? The LE one on iherb is 6 hours, is this better?

Time release is very important for melatonin. Its half-life is only about 45 minutes. To effectively shift your circadian rhythm, you want a low dose in your brain for a long time.

The LE time-released melatonin is great. It's what I use. I prefer the 300mg to the 700mg, but that decision is up to you, not me.

Just be sure to use it at the right time -- 3-5 hours before bedtime.

do you find the need to sleep at different time for it to affect your rhythm or can you still be awake? Also is the time release fine or is the 6 hr release necessary? I also think you meant to say mcg not mg haha

Edited by stablemind, 05 September 2012 - 07:53 PM.

[jadamgo]

it was instant release, why would time release matter? The LE one on iherb is 6 hours, is this better?

Time release is very important for melatonin. Its half-life is only about 45 minutes. To effectively shift your circadian rhythm, you want a low dose in your brain for a long time.

The LE time-released melatonin is great. It's what I use. I prefer the 300mg to the 700mg, but that decision is up to you, not me.

Just be sure to use it at the right time -- 3-5 hours before bedtime.

do you find the need to sleep at different time for it to affect your rhythm or can you still be awake? Also is the time release fine or is the 6 hr release necessary? I also think you meant to say mcg not mg haha

Haha I totally meant to say mcg. Glad you caught it!

I'm not sure I understand your first question. Are you asking if I need the melatonin to make me fall asleep once I take it? Personally, I have a harder time falling asleep on time if I takea melatonin nap 4 hours before bedtime, so I try to get on the computer or play a game, something to keep me awake until it's really time for bed. But even when I do fall asleep after taking the melatonin, it still helps.

The ordinary time release is fine for me. But if it doesn't work for you, it would be entirely reasonable to switch up to the 6 hour release.

[stablemind]

What i mean is that after you take it, is it necessary that you sleep at an earlier time in order to experience a phase advance (the next day you feel like sleeping earlier)? In other words, will melatonin shift your internal clock so that you don't need to fall asleep earlier or does it simply facilitate your ability to fall asleep so your circadian rhythm is indirectly affected?

On a side note, I tried L-cartinine 500mg + ALA 200mg, and I felt fully energized the whole day. Going to try it again some time to make sure that was the combo. I'm currently on a ketogenic diet so it may have synergized with the stack.

[jadamgo]

What i mean is that after you take it, is it necessary that you sleep at an earlier time in order to experience a phase advance (the next day you feel like sleeping earlier)? In other words, will melatonin shift your internal clock so that you don't need to fall asleep earlier or does it simply facilitate your ability to fall asleep so your circadian rhythm is indirectly affected?

On a side note, I tried L-cartinine 500mg + ALA 200mg, and I felt fully energized the whole day. Going to try it again some time to make sure that was the combo. I'm currently on a ketogenic diet so it may have synergized with the stack.

Ahh, I see what you mean. Melatonin shifts the clock. Even if you don't fall asleep any earlier on the night you take it, you will still fall asleep earlier the next night.

That's great that you had such a response to the carnitine/ALA combo!

[Perek]

You may benefit from sustained release melatonin. Seems like your cortisol wakes you to early.

I've never had any major difficulties with sleep but Agomelatine is the best AD I ever taken.

Try it out. Give it time...6 weeks and you may need to up the dose to 50mg(double)

[Sobriquet]

mm try GABA, and chamomile tea in the evenings. Also as others said sunlight is very important, and exercise. I CAN'T sleep if I was sedentary the whole day. Try working out and getting more sunshine, if possible.

[stablemind]

I've resolved this problem with uridine. Pls see last post in this thread: http://www.longecity...rcadian-rhythm/

[tea76]

Choline can be antidopaminergic (some types). Recommendation for you, initially -

Morning:
250-350mg UMP, *orally*
GOOD multi vitamin, that includes b group and trace minerals
500IU of mixed vitamin E
A large dose of fish oil with >700mg DHA + >300mg EPA (other forms available if you are vegetarian)

Evening:
250-350mg UMP, *orally*

See how you respond after 1-2 weeks. If you find you aren't getting results, try a sublingual dose of UMP. Conversely, if your day is less vibrant, try a lower dose.

Isn't Vitamin E normally included in Multivitamins? If yes, what's the reason for taking extra of it?

Also, does it matter if you take more EPA than DHA as long as it's >700mg DHA? I havn't been able to find any good brands with higher DHA content than EPA content.

[MrHappy]

Choline can be antidopaminergic (some types). Recommendation for you, initially -

Morning:
250-350mg UMP, *orally*
GOOD multi vitamin, that includes b group and trace minerals
500IU of mixed vitamin E
A large dose of fish oil with >700mg DHA + >300mg EPA (other forms available if you are vegetarian)

Evening:
250-350mg UMP, *orally*

See how you respond after 1-2 weeks. If you find you aren't getting results, try a sublingual dose of UMP. Conversely, if your day is less vibrant, try a lower dose.

Isn't Vitamin E normally included in Multivitamins? If yes, what's the reason for taking extra of it?

Also, does it matter if you take more EPA than DHA as long as it's >700mg DHA? I havn't been able to find any good brands with higher DHA content than EPA content.

Generally most multis only have token amounts of vitamin E. Its use is multipurpose - it'll stabilise the large amounts of fish oil, by way of being an antioxidant and it is also useful for repairing lipid membranes, which your brain has a lot of.

Choline can be antidopaminergic (some types). Recommendation for you, initially -

Morning:
250-350mg UMP, *orally*
GOOD multi vitamin, that includes b group and trace minerals
500IU of mixed vitamin E
A large dose of fish oil with >700mg DHA + >300mg EPA (other forms available if you are vegetarian)

Evening:
250-350mg UMP, *orally*

See how you respond after 1-2 weeks. If you find you aren't getting results, try a sublingual dose of UMP. Conversely, if your day is less vibrant, try a lower dose.

Isn't Vitamin E normally included in Multivitamins? If yes, what's the reason for taking extra of it?

Also, does it matter if you take more EPA than DHA as long as it's >700mg DHA? I havn't been able to find any good brands with higher DHA content than EPA content.

The DHA / EPA probably aren't super critical.

[protoject]

The DHA / EPA probably aren't super critical.

Agreed that MINAMI is a great brand for EPA/ DHA products? Got a good EPA from them and it was stellar. Well, not sure if it was stellar in effect as it may have done nothing for my actual condition, but the product itself just seemed excellent quality. And it was like almost 100% epa. Heck, i just looked at their website and it looks like they do use supercritical chromatography.