18 replies to this topic

[Sasha_]

Hey guys !

Sorry for that very rookie question, but I have been trying to dig the answer
in old threads without success, so here it goes :

I recently started taking "Get smart", yeah I know that thing isn't very popular round here and I understand (probably only partly) why.

And I was wondering why even when I take only one cap in the morning (and nothing more in the day) I have to feel so groggy and demotivated the next day ? Am I meant to supplement myself with any amino acids to replenish my brain in neurotransmitters overnight, or shall I still take a choline supplement despite the presence of Centro and Hup A ?

I mean so far that supplement is great, very light in effect but just what I need to fight depression daily, it just would be perfect without that next day "hangover".

So, any advice out there for me ?

[Beth]

Ingredients of bodyguard Get Smart

Gingko Biloba Inositol Vitamin E (d-Aplha Tocopherol) L-Glutamine Vitamin B1(Thiamine) L-Glutamic Acid Vitamin B3 (Niacinamide) L-Carnitine Tartrate Vitamin B5 (Calcium Pantothene) N Acetyl Carnitine Vitamin B6 (Pyridoxine) L-Ormithine Vitamin B12 (Cyanocobalamin) L-Trytophan Folic Acid L-Tyroshine Choline Bitartrate L-Lysine Calcium Ascorbate L-Methionine Selenium Chelate L-Gluthionine Manganese D L Phenylalnine Magnesium Omega 3 Zinc Octacosanol Copper Lipoic Acid Chromium Co-Enzyme Q10 Potassium Gamma Amino Benzoic Acid (GABA) Para-Amino Benzoic Acid (PABA)

Get Smart just seems like an expensive multivitamin to me. I would try selegiline if you're trying to fight depression.

[Sasha_]

Hey Beth !

Thanks for your response, though we are not refering to the same product it seems !

My supplement contains: Aniracetam

Centrophenoxine

Pyritinol

Picamilon

Piracetam

Oxiracetam

Vinpocetine

Idebenone

Huperzine A

All in rather small quantities compared to what other people on this forum seem to take, but definitely a nootropic stack.
You seem to be talking about a "workout recovery" sort of stack.
Selegiline seems a bit heavy, and rather indicated as a treatment for strong depressions, which to my fortune, I do not suffer from !

[shplongl]

What about rasagiline for depression? I am trying to avoid the amphetamine metabolites but still retain the benefits. Hopefully those benefits aren't due to the metabolites

[Heraclitean]

Sasha, selegiline is not a heavy drug, I believe it is quite benign as long as you avoid interactions, notable PEA and other phenylethylamines. Just FYI.

With regards to the hangover, I think huperzine can cause that because it inhibits restful sleep, which is essential to health and vitality. This is the reason it is not recommended for daily use or prolonged periods. Also the sheer volume of pharmaceuticals in that product could cause anybody to have a hangover or feel out of sorts. Poly pharmacy (which is what you are doing with that product) is very tricky and has a high expected rate of failure (defined as excess side effects) because you are juggling so many variables at once, all of which interact with each other.

Have you tried single nootropics? This is probably a better way to start. And if you are reluctant to stop taking get smart or to try an alternative method, don't forget that your purchase is a sunk cost.

[Sasha_]

Heraclitean:


Thanks for your answer and advises, I have indeed come to realise huperzine A isn't suited for a daily use.
I have actually just received samples of piracetam, aniracetam and oxiracetam, and am going to do some trials. I haven't got a scale yet, but already tried a tiny pinch of piracetam with choline in the same amount, and felt very strange, definitely not the effect that "get smart" gives me, so I shall try aniracetam as soon as I'll be able to do some precise measurement.
For now, I'll stick to 1 cap "get smart" twice a week, and stay on ginseng the days off it.

[timjeezy]

I have tried almost all of the ingredients in Smart Nutrition's "Get Smart" blend (except Oxiracetam, eventhough the amount per serving in "Get Smart" is relatively insignificant in my opinion).

I agree with the above poster Heraclitean on two points:

1. I do not think that taking Huperzine A will give you the best possible nootropic experience with racetams. For me, Huperzine A is sometimes decent, sometimes bad. I usually use it with a few hundred mg of DMAE. I do not think the combination of Huperzine A and Centro/DMAE (with racetams) is better than just taking either alpha GPC or CDP choline (with racetams) to increase choline. Alpha GPC or CDP choline provide a much more consistent good nootropic experience. I normally use piracetam or pramiracetam, and sometimes aniracetam, in small amounts, once of twice daily, and usually only one racetam per day (but have had good results with piracetam and pramiracetam together). So this is what I am basing my advice on. Piracetam and Pramiracetam are my favorites so far. However I only have good experiences with pramiracetam if I mix it into a 1/2 tablespoon of olive oil and chase with water, or eat with a high fat meal, since pram. is fat-soluble.

2. Try single nootropics, or simple combinations. This is by far the best way to start. Many people will not get optimal results with this complex multiple ingredient blend. I have looked at a lot of "nootropic blends" as they appear have been becoming very popular recently. A majority of these blends do not even have racetams, so I think that the "Get Smart" blend is at least better than most blends out there. This is because racetams should be the core of any nootropic stack, but everyone has different preferences and experiences with these supplements.

One other thing I would recommend is to start off with just taking piracetam with either alpha-GPC or CDP choline for a couple weeks and see how you like it. Alpha GPC is sometimes more expensive, but I think I like it better than CDP choline (but CDP choline is still great). Stay away from choline bartartrate or choline citrate (although they are cheap) or other choline sources that you have to take huge amounts of to cross the blood-brain barrier. Once you try alpha GPC or CPD choline you will know what I mean. When you begin to take piracetam, it is expected that you will almost certainly feel weird/different for a few days, but this is normal. This is how I felt and also how several of my friends did when we first started using it. So you may need to order more piracetam if you only have a small amount. I think this simple combination is the best way to start.

Although everyone has their own preferences with stacks since we all have slightly different physiology, one combination that always makes me feel great is taking piracetam (1-2 grams), alpha GPC (250-300 mg), caffeine (100 mg), picamilon (150 mg), and good b-complex/multivitamin. Fish oil (get DHA ONLY if you can) is also nice to use. DHA is responsible for essentially all of the benefits of fish oil (audio podcast about DHA: http://www.healthque...dr-parris-kidd/ )

Good luck with finding the supplements the work best for you.

[Sasha_]

<sup>timjeezy:

Thank you for your advice, you convinced me to get piracetam a better chance, I will try it for a time and see how it goes.
I just have a question, does supplementing with choline enhances your personnal experience with piracetam,or is it just to prevent any headache ?</sup>

[Heraclitean]

<sup>timjeezy:

Thank you for your advice, you convinced me to get piracetam a better chance, I will try it for a time and see how it goes.
I just have a question, does supplementing with choline enhances your personnal experience with piracetam,or is it just to prevent any headache ?</sup>

Assuming your question is directed towards the community at large, I'd say that:

-Choline is, according to studies, a nutrient which a large percentage of Americans (Westerners too?) are deficient in. If you don't eat a lot of red meat, organ meats and eggs, it is likely that you are not optimally nourished in terms of this nutrient. If this is the case, then choline supplementation will likely enhance your Racetam experience and make it more effective than it would otherwise be.

- Choline has effects of its own, even if you don't take anything else, if you are deficient, just as any nutrient does if you are deficient in it (e.g. I remember the [positive] rush I got the first few weeks of taking fish oil, it was amazing. Now that I have replenished my levels of omega 3 and eat fish regularly, fish oil caps have become almost redundant). This "effect" is actually you just approaching optimal level of health a bit more.

-In your place, I would buy some Choline Bitartrate and take around 2 grams in divided doses with your racetams, after having taken the racetams by themselves: this way you will be able to tell if it helps or not. Given that it is cheap (you are in the UK, get a generous amount over myprotein for about £4 incl. shipping I believe) you should try it out. The worse that can happen is that you'll feel a bit wired and maybe irritable, but it isn't too bad and if that happens, just reduce dose or stop taking it, and give the choline to your granny or grampa whose brain will surely thank you.

- In conclusion, don't be afraid to experiment, as these are cheap and safe chemicals. Nobody can tell a priori whether you need it or not, unfortunately.

[Heraclitean]

Also, in contrast to timjeezy (with all due respect), I think that choline bitartrate is a good place to start, just to see whether choline agrees with you or not. He is right though that large doses are needed, and that A-GPC and Citicoline are superior, but I think that "testing the waters" with cheap Choline Bitartrate, and then moving onto the (much) more expensive upgraded choline types if you are getting a feel that Choline is doing you good, makes more economical sense.

If Alpha GPC and citicoline were cheaper, I'd say just forget Bitartrate. But the price differential is substantial, which in my opinion alters the best way to go about it. On the other hand, if you are wealthy and/or "money is no object" with respect to nootropics in general, then go for A-GPC and/or citicoline the first time round, for sure.

Edited by Heraclitean, 03 September 2012 - 06:16 PM.

[Sasha_]

I see, thanks for that clarification Heraclitean, I really appreciate.

As a matter of fact I got a sample of CDP choline with my racetams, I'll give it a go on its
own, see how it feels. As for fishoils, I have already been supplementing myself with it for a coupla months, together with ginseng (panax) and ginkgo, and the whole thing works actually quite good for me.

Which brings me to my last question: is there any reason why I should not take ginseng when on racetams, or do they go well together ? I mean of course I could try and find out, but I am quite busy at the moment and can't really afford to waste a day feeling like crap as a result of a bad association. Can anyone answer that ?

[Heraclitean]

Ginseng is subtle, and highly benign (In my experience it is so benign it can, to an extent, help the body overcome the negative effects of less benign drugs). Don't fear, just take the racetams, choline and ginseng, and be on your way.
Don't hesitate, you have a greater chance of having a bad day by drinking rancid coffee, eating a poisoned piece of meat for lunch or catching the flu than getting ill with such, yes, benign compounds.

Unless you are the bubble boy (and if you are you shouldn't be doing nootropics), just go for it.

[timjeezy]

<sup>timjeezy:

Thank you for your advice, you convinced me to get piracetam a better chance, I will try it for a time and see how it goes.
I just have a question, does supplementing with choline enhances your personnal experience with piracetam,or is it just to prevent any headache ?</sup>

To answer you question, choline supplementation does both of these things for me. I almost always get a headache, or at least some pressure on the inside of my head (feels sort of near the middle of my brain), if I take racetams without a choline source. And using a choline source most certainly enhances the overall experience. Type of choline source is very important as well. The best results are obtained with CDP-choline or alpha GPC, so it is good that you have CDP-choline. It is unfortunate that these two are expensive, but trust me, you don't know what are missing if you go without the good choline sources, and I bet the vast majority experienced nootropic users would agree with me on this.

From what I have read, the only real problem people seem to have with piracetam (besides the issue of only taking piracetam for a couple days -- it often takes 7-10 days to fully kick and and for users to get past the initial "weirdness" from slight perceptual changes, even at large starter doses) is getting headaches. The solution to this is to take a choline supplement, that is all. People who experiment with piracetam and do not use choline are almost doomed not to have an optimal experience. Choline is made into Ach, and Ach upregulation (others could step in here if they feel like giving a better explanation) is one of the primary neural physiology changes that is responsible for the psychoactive benefits felt from taking piracetam. Piracetam also works in many other ways besides this, but this is the reason why choline is important. If you do not have enough choline to make the extra Ach, you will not get many of the desired benefits, and you will often get a headache. It is that simple. Anyone who starts taking this stuff without choline clearly did not research piracetam enough. Doing so is a waste of time as far as I am concerned.
Many people try to take racetams without a choline source, some even for long periods of time. They usually do not have a positive experience, and may keep hoping it will get better. All they need to do is take a choline supplement.

As far as ginseng, I do not know enough about it, or if it should or should not be consumed with piracetam. Some people say it gives them a slight physical and/or mental energy boost, maybe in the same way as sulbutiamine (but sulb. is almost entirely physical for me at least).

Edited by timjeezy, 03 September 2012 - 10:21 PM.

[Heraclitean]

Although it is true that racetams work optimally when the brain is well nourished, particularly regarding Choline, don't forget that supplements are not the only way to obtain choline. If they were, then wouldn't pregnant women who didn't supplement with A-GPC all have seriously damaged children? Or wouldn't we be developing Alzheimers at a young age? It is possible to obtain enough choline from the diet, but I don't think anybody knows whether that is the case or not for him. Hence the need to experiment.

Supplementation may likely be necessary, but just because choline is generally an underconsumed nutrient, not because it is necessary in all cases, unconditionally.

Regarding Bitartrate or A-GPC/Citicoline, I'll agree 100% that the latter trump the former without a doubt: but if he can't afford it currently, he shouldn't skip bitartrate, because it is better than nothing, and if he is choline deficient it will also work, just not as sublimely.

[timjeezy]

I agree Heraclitean. When I am in a pinch I have chugged a raw egg or two (organic free range of course) to get the choline content from the yolk. Experimentation is certainly important, since he may need less or more choline. Choline bartartrate serves its purpose, and it is certainly better than nothing.

[Sasha_]

Well, thank you for your insight guys, I now know how to properly start my nootropic experience !

Today I took ginseng (500mg) as usual and about 1g Pira, with 400mg CDP choline, and I must say, psychologically, I felt sort of worse than usual, no motivation, no perky mood or anything like that, but my productivity was definitely increased compared to usual, despite the fact that I felt sort of sleepy, which I suspect means I took too much choline.

Also it might not be related, but since I started doing racetams, I keep getting random flashbacks from well buried memories with a surprising acuteness.

Anyways I'll try the same dosage tomorrow without CDP and see how it goes.

Again thanks for sharing folks !!!

[timjeezy]

Well, thank you for your insight guys, I now know how to properly start my nootropic experience !

Today I took ginseng (500mg) as usual and about 1g Pira, with 400mg CDP choline, and I must say, psychologically, I felt sort of worse than usual, no motivation, no perky mood or anything like that, but my productivity was definitely increased compared to usual, despite the fact that I felt sort of sleepy, which I suspect means I took too much choline.

Also it might not be related, but since I started doing racetams, I keep getting random flashbacks from well buried memories with a surprising acuteness.

Anyways I'll try the same dosage tomorrow without CDP and see how it goes.

Again thanks for sharing folks !!!

If you are just starting off with the piracetam, and have a fair amount of it, then you should be taking more than a mere 1.0 gram a day to start.

I would strongly recommend taking larger doses for the first week (or 5-10 days). This is often called "attack dosing". This procedure involves taking 3.0-4.0 grams (more or less depending on who you ask), two or three times per day (two should be fine if you ask me). Doing this will bring the benefits of piracetam on faster. After this period, you can begin to settle into a regular dosing schedule, if you wish, involving taking piracetam once or twice daily (always with some choline). As far as amount, some people take a lot more piracetam than others. I often take only 1.0-2.0 grams, but some people take 5.0-10.0 grams at once, it is all about what you feel comfortable with. I find that after I take 2.0-3.0 grams, the effects do not really change at all, while others need to take massive doses before they really feel it. It might be due to the fact that I have a slender build, and have found that I am fairly sensitive to the effects of most stimulants, sedatives, and other drugs/supplements I have experimented with (although I would not consider piracetam a stimulant or sedative). Also, you should not have to pay more than $30/$40 USD for 500 grams of bulk powder (otherwise shop around more because piracetam should not be expensive), unless you are buying pre-filled piracetam capsules.

If I were you I would not expect any dramatic changes from the start. Such changes like huge increases in motivation and productivity are unlikely to occur. These behaviors come moreso from within yoursself anyway. It is best not to think of any of these supplements as wonder drugs that will suddenly make your life become an amazing new experience, or turn you into a genius or give you autobiographical memory. These things rarely, if ever, happen and you will almost certainly be let down if you expect these changes to occur (although I have read about some people reporting the ability to have semi-autobiographical memory while using certain combinations of supplements, but usually only after taking a long time to devise a complex personal supplement regiment). The changes to your thinking, perception, emotions, and general well-being caused by piracetam and other nootropics, will be subtle, but build up gradual overtime. If you want to be super happy, you should take MDMA, if you want to be super focused and productive, take adderall or ritalin. Piracetam is not a replacement for these. I don't mean to sound negative about this, but one should keep expectations grounded in reality and also keep an open mind.

[Sasha_]

Timjeezy: I am certainly not expecting any miracle to happen, but from what I read on this forum so far,racetams seem to have a tendency in mood improving.
I believe aniracetam works better in that respect, but it may as well be that what I really liked about "get smart" was actually the picamilon, or the synergy picamillon/aniracetam.

But before drawing any conclusions I guess I should give piracetam a fair try, and increase the dosage like you advised.

I should precise mood improving wasn't my initial motivation for racetams, what I really hoped was to restore my ability to learn and focus, thus helping me with learning languages.

But perhaps should I simply ask you, what shall I really allow myself to expect from these compounds ? Are people on the web over dramatizing about their experiences ?

Edited by Sasha_, 04 September 2012 - 08:06 PM.

[Sasha_]

Ok, just a follow up then.

I received my scales and the rest of my racetams, also got some sulbutiamine and picamilon.
I tried a single dose (in the morning) of 600 mg Aniracetam with 250mg CDP and felt great, only to wake up
the next day with an unpleasant headache ! I now understand why you guys call it a hangover, it just feels like that only your body doesn't feel sick. Took Ibuprofene which alleviated the headache, but it still did linger till 16h, so, I might try Aniracetam again, but for now I think piracetam's great, I get less annoying side effects, but still I cvan't seem to sleep straight through the night when I am on it, it seems I have to wake up at the end of every REM sleep phase, and what's more I need much less sleep !(which is good)

Tried Picamilon, and I must say I am a great fan, straight from the first day ! It allows me to go through a shitty day at work with a smile on my face and provides my mind with a "stress proof armor" !

Sulbutiamine works fine at 200mg, makes me feel up and ready, stimulated and always "excited", let's just say it made me feel like I was 20 yo again ! Downside is the next day I felt the exact opposite !

I need more experimentations, but I can already say, if some of these nootropics are bound to be physyologic rollercoasters, I think I might just stick to picamilon, CDP and Piracetam.

Thanks again for those of you who took time to answer my questions, and all the best !