LONGECITY

I've taken several nootropics specifically targeted at improving memory for medical school studying (Ginkgo biloba, Bacopa monneira, Huperzine A, Vinpocetine, Fish Oil, Rhodiola rosea, L-Theanine, Choline-bitartrate, Acetyl-L-carnatine, and a slew of multivitamins, etc.), and while these did have a noticeable effect on my memory and motivation to study, they all led to a major crash at 1-2 half lives-- depending on their therapeutic window (the blood concentration that both has an effect and is not toxic). Each resulted in a significant reduction in declarative recall (but not procedural memory) for me in this refractory window (the crash). Ginkgo and Rhodiola were the most "stimulant" oriented for me of those, and worked well in both motivational and mnemestic regards, but it they had the hardest "nap time!" crash effect in the afternoon. I attribute this to their pharmacodynmic behavior as a mild MAO inhibitors (similar to old generation atypical antidepressants that prevent the degradation of epinephrine, norepinephrine, and dopamine by monoamine oxidase). Rhodiola is a pretty potent MAOI, which leads to monoamine tolerance (not to mention some excess body odor from apocrine sweat glands, and a potentially dangerous hypertensive reaction with tyramines found in Cheese and Wine). I took Ginko the most regularly as it is not specifically an MAOI and has other effects increasing cranial blood flow and possibly enhancing acetylcholine transmission in the hippocampus. This was every day for a year, 2 or 3 times a day at 60-120mg. I found the best result with Extended Release 120mg. Bacopa was also great for about 6 weeks but I then began to notice its least desirable side effect. It has been shown to lead to testicular atrophy and (supposedly) reversible infertility in a few studies, so while it was often more stable for me than Ginko, I chose to avoid it. I did experience a loss of libido from this, but have since returned to normal testicular mass and sexual desire. Apparently it inhibits ledig cells.

I've recently started Piracetam. I experience an enhanced cerebral recall, which makes sense given its proposed pharmacodynamic behavior at the AMPA and NMDA receptors. I do not experience hippocampal recall enhancement... vinpocetine and huperzine A were excellent for this, but the short duration and inevitable acetylcholine tolerance are unacceptable for me. Perhaps useful only on exam days. Occasional continued Ginko use helps boost my hippocampus when needed, at the risk of excess stimulation/jitters.

For me the nature of the memory recall with Piracetam is different than many "memory enhancing" nootropics in that recall is unlikely be/feel more "instantaneous" or "certain," but will instead be more voluminous and thorough once a particular cerebral storage area for the given memory is activated by hippocampal pathways. There's also speculation (and at least personal confirmation here) that Piracetam improves memory consolidation through modulation of the previously described receptors (AMPA/NMDA). I find that I retain what I've studied much more reliably with Piracetam than with Ginkgo, but that the combo of the two helps more with regurgitating this info... especially verbally. Combining Piracetam with Ginkgo, Vinpocetine, Huperzine A or another Acetylcholine esterase inhibitor or Agonist will likely help with hippocampal activation to achieve this effect (think of it like opening the memory gateway to a warehouse vs just increasing the size and efficiency inside the memory warehouse itself with Piracetam alone-- which acts on cerebral neurons and may only slightly aid hippocampal ones.).

Choline-bitartrate supplements may work to aid this process, but the evidence for Choline actually crossing the blood brain barrier and having an effect is limited (unless one is already significantly deficient in acetylcholine and thus synthesis, conversion to acytelcholine, and import into the brain may be enhanced. This would be caused by excess Huperzine, Vinpocetine, and possibly Ginkgo use -- among other Alzheimer's supplements/prescriptions which are aimed at stimulating the activity of the nucleus basalis of meynert in the basal forebrain).

L-Glutamine may potentially work by the same concept as Choline-bitartrate, but on cerebral glutamate neurons instead of the more hippocampal acetylcholine neurons. I have ordered some of this from Amazon, but have yet to try it. I plan to add it to my "Intense Day" stack.

For bedtime I enjoy a bit of Cannabis to enhance neuroplasticity and relaxation with some regularity. I also use 5-HTP, Valerian root, and Acetyl-L-carnatine + Propionyl-L-carnatine if I'm too hyped up or feeling depleted from going too hard.

Anyways, this is my current stack:

Daily:
-Spark Energy Drink from Advocare (1-3 scoops per day) -- http://www.advocare....tive/A2094.aspx
(contains a lot of caffeine, choline, and other vitamins that are very common to this forum)
-Fish Oil (1100mg, extended release)
(make sure it's chetelated for mercury, and cod liver oil is best, but spendy.)
-Piracetam 800mg per 4.5 hours, 3 times per day.

Intense Days:
-All the above.
-L-Glutamine 1-5g added to Spark (will experiment)
-Ginkgo Extended Release -- 120mg, per 6 hours, twice a day.
-L-Theanine, 100mg as needed if feeling impending Ginkgo crash or too jittery.

Exam Days:
-All the Above
... then immediately before test...
-Vinpocetine 10 mg
-Huperzine A 100 mcg

Nighttime:
- 0.2g Cannabis sativa, vaporized via Volcano, or in olive oil tincture.
- 100 mg 5-HTP and Valarian Root 20mg if feeling burnt out and desiring a nice long sleep.
- Acetyl-L-carnatine + Propionyl-L-carnatine (Acetyl-L-carnatine may actually result in some restless legs, hyper-motor activity in some people.)

Lastly, a word of caution: After reading these forums, I was shocked by the quantity many people are dosing with these drugs. 12 grams of Piracetam, or a gram of Ginkgo at once is crazy, and you risk blowing an aneurysm or bleeding out from the anticoagulant and hypertensive effects of these drugs. Also, a huge dose all at once is foolish. The half life on these is between 5-7 hours depending on your kidney function, better equals faster. It's much better to take lower doses more frequently. You should always be seeking the MINIMAL therapeutic dosage with nootropics, and any supplement for that matter. Many supplements have a very potent effect that is not necessarily dosage dependent, and varies from person to person. Many supplements, just like prescription drugs, have serious adverse effects that are often NOT noticeable at the time, or even for years. The greatest concern is generally cancer (bladder is a common example several of the mineral vitamins, for example), kidney failure, liver cirrhosis/failure, and (with nootropics) neurotransmitter receptor desensitization. These are a very real risk. Many of you may bock at the "low" dosages I've indicated in my above stack, and that's fine with me. I'm currently in the most intense portion of my medical training, I use my mind more than I have ever before in my life. Through the next 8 months, I will be using it more intensely than I probably ever will again. I notice a truly efficacious difference at these dosages and have steadily moved up in class ranking since starting my quest into nootropics. I plan to cut out much of it once I've finished by board exams. If none of that convinces you, consider this. The dosages I listed are on the low-mid range of the spectrum for peer reviewed research papers that have held up to scrutiny in regard to effectiveness and safety in DEMENTIA patients. The research for young, health people is very limited, as reputable medical researchers are generally looking to help the sick and not enhance the healthy. The studies indicate safety for most of these drugs at about 2 years out, at most-- many of their patients (with dementia) often opt or die of complications related to their their illness at this point. What this means is that for the short term, all this stuff is probably safe if responsibly administered at minimum therapeutic dosages in young people, but there is NO evidence out there supporting long term safety 20-50 years out when one begins to consider things like long term brain damage and dementia from the nootropics themselves or cancerous malignancy.

Thank you for an excellent post.
You're right about high dosages being dangerous, risky and possibly ineffective. In fact even Piracetam lately shows some side effects as for example, increased red blood count.
I've been wondering though, whether you've ever tried the CILTEP stack or Magnesium L-threonate?

Also, how would you describe the effects of using Cannabis sativa before bedtime?

I think you're asking about cLTP stacks? Chemically induced long term potentiation... People take Luteolin and forskolin for this, and one of the primary mechanisms is up regulation of cAMP (cyclic adenosine mono phosphate). This is a very common molecule in many signalling cascades throughout the body , so it's no surprise a study showed it to be involved in long term memory storage (LTP). I would like to try this, and may order some soon, but I'm a bit concerned by the point I just mentioned-- the commonality of this molecule. For example... When someone is infected with cholera, cAMP is up regulated through a series of reactions in the intestinal epithelium. The pathway is complex and unrelated to these drugs indicated in cLTP, but the net outcome that causes an effect is the same, more cAMP. I see that an adverse effect listed for luteolin is GI distress and Gastric hypersecretion which sounds an awful lot like the classic "rice water diarrhea" of cholera... It may not be nearly as extreme, but as was loosely indicated in my above discussion: I try to avoid nootropics with wide spread systemic effects on the body. I prefer drugs that are targeted, with limited systemic adverse effects. It sounds like that may be a risk here. Also, it apparently inhibits the action of interleukin 6 which is an important signalling molecule in inflammation. Sounds great right? Anti inflammatory action? Well, that also means some immunosuppressive effect, which also occurs with vinpocetine through inhibition of Nf kappa B. Not everyone has to worry about immune system compromise, but I work in a hospital surrounded by sick people, and when I was a child I also had a illness that has left me permanently a bit immunosupressed due to chemotherapy. So this obviously is something I'd rather avoid if possible. The benefits of cLTP could certainly be worth it, especially if the effect is shown to be relatively instant and dose dependent, and not requiring "pre loading" and long term use. It looks like this is also potentially synergistic with piracetam, as it is apparently enhanced by open NMDA channels. http://jn.physiology.../91/5/1955.long

In short, I may try this very soon, to be taken while I'm at home studying... So I don't get a cold, and so I can use the restroom if need be...

Cannabis is a sedative euphoric. I feel relaxed, certainly not cerebrally boosted, but altered. Short term memory will be inhibited. It helps me sleep better than most anything, and I don't feel drowsy or foggy in the morning. I notice the neuroplastic effects the next afternoon. Generally enhanced curiosity, more creative thinking, and greater openness. The cerebral bonus from cannabis comes as an after effect for me. Low levels will remain in your system for a very long time and i believe this to be the main mode of benficial action. Anandamide (the endogenous cousin to delta 9 THC in cannabis that is made by your body) has been implicated in memory and dendritic growth. High levels, aka just after smoking, will basically just make you stoned. Which I also enjoy... But in terms of studying, it's only good for histology slides and other colorful imagery! I find that if I stop smoking entirely for at least a month, I write and play/write music poorly in comparison. I become disinterested in the broad array of hobbies I normally keep. I am probably a bit more focused and functional, but less creative and generally less satisfied with life on the whole. I only vaporize, I find smoking to be significantly more inhibitory and detrimental to my aerobic fitness... Not to mention more cancer risk that I'd rather not incur.

Great, though I'd never consider taking Cannabis as a sleeping aid, because I've never seen it quantified as a nootropic while melatonin seems to be working quite well.
It's a sleep aid and has a small, but noticeable nootropic effect that works for me.

As for CILTEP (or cLTP) I'm planning to try it soon, but I'm still going through some literature.

Great, though I'd never consider taking Cannabis as a sleeping aid, because I've never seen it quantified as a nootropic while melatonin seems to be working quite well.
It's a sleep aid and has a small, but noticeable nootropic effect that works for me.

As for CILTEP (or cLTP) I'm planning to try it soon, but I'm still going through some literature.

Strangely, I actually seem to get an allergic reaction to melatonin... lots of sweat and stomach pains. Though I've only tried one brand, so maybe it was a bad batch.

Also, have you tried Noopept? I've read it's synergistic with Piracetam and provides a much needed "kick" at about 10mg dosage. I got ahold of some of that today. Might try to swap it out for the Ginkgo-- it's just too much up and down. Piracetam has been so smooth on it's own since I started it, and seems to actually make this adverse effect of Ginkgo more prominent. I've already been swapping Ginkgo out for additional caffeine most of the time, and after a year on Gingko I'm really appreciating the sense of balance I'm feeling in it's absence.

No, I've never tried noopept - It's quite hard to get and impossible to ship from Amazon to Poland.
As for Ginkgo - I've done my research on it very long time ago and it seemed that Bacopa was better in all possible measures, so I've started with Bacopa which pretty much cured my anxiety. Now I'm not seeing much effects from it, but I still have a lot of it on my shelves.
I've finally tried Ginkgo a few months ago just to satisfy my curiosity (also because an aged University Neuroscience professor was taking it), but it worked exactly the same way as you described, so I wouldn't recommend it to young folks.

Well that's too bad about Amazon, although Poland is at least geographically closer to where most of the research and production of Noopept is occurring-- Russia. Perhaps there are other, more local sources. I tried 20mg Noopept with 800mg of Piracetam, 2g of L-Glutamine, 500mg of Choline-bitartrate, and 150mg of caffeine this morning. Feeling fantastic and ready for another 12 hour day of studying! Blood pressure remains at 118/76 at one hour and twenty minutes in. Noticing slight venous distension of basilic and cephalic veins of my forearms. I've been noticing this with Piracetam as well, but it seemed to come on a little faster this time.

In regard to Bacopa (aka Brahmi), it has been shown to have anti-fertility potential in mice: http://www.contracep...0406-X/abstract
The infertility was shown to be reversible, though as a younger individual without children at this time, I prefer to avoid that effect. However, I agree with the preference of that over Ginkgo. A family member of mine also is experiencing early/mild Alzheimer's and has been experiencing some benefit from Bacopa.

I was aware of the antifertility potential of Bacopa and it was actually a plus for me. I'll probably lend a bottle of it my grandparents so they can take a try on it too, they already enjoy piracetam (with a choline enhanced diet) and described it as mood lifting and helping with minor illness (that part is actually incredibly interesting, but I'd rather try to make a small case study publication out of it rather than boost about it on a forum).

Noopept sure sounds interesting, not less than modafinil, but I'll probably need to wait before I get hold of those two, because I'm not planing any trips to russia anytime soon. What I've also been hoping for a very long time now is to get some LSD and try micro dosing (There's a lot of info about on the internet, but I can't find now one of the most interesting ones). This too seems a bit hopeless, because I'm afraid of getting things like this from the black market, especially after reading "My problem child" by Albert Hoffman (great book written by a brilliant man btw).

I'll be happy though to hear more about your experiences with Noopept!

Noopept has been "fun," but ultimately it is not helpful to me as a nootropic. It's very stimulating to the senses; particularly increasing visual vibrance, perceived color saturation, and appreciation of lines/curves. Despite this, I found it very difficult to read and focus, and when I'm faced with a fairly well defined body of material to study for class I find myself unusually demotivated. (Normally when I have a "plan" laid out, this motivates me and facilitates the effect of other nootropics.) I've tried the recommended 10mg dose orally, and have also tried up to 80mg dosage after reading about other members on this forum having success with megadosing (despite my opposition to this philosophy). At higher dosage the effect came on more quickly, but did not seem much more intense. I also tried insufflating into the nasopharynx... (snorting, like cocaine, for example) The effect came on more quickly and was more intense. This was also the same with sublingual administration. I think the mucosal bioavailablity is much better than gastric. The only negative side effect I experienced was a sense of increased aggressiveness and impatience with people... something that I can internalize very well, but not something I would want to tolerate regularly.

In conclusion, I've found Noopept to be ineffective for studying medicine or any hard academia... however, I did enjoy playing guitar and taking some photos, which resulted in writing a new song and taking some great nature still-life photos.

Also, as I continue my experience with Piracetam, I've found much less desire/need to take anything else in addition. Too much stimulation seems to counter the benefit of Piracetam alone.

Had a major exam last Friday... stepped down to just using Piracetam at 1.6g with breakfast also with one scoop of Spark beverage (for choline, caffeine, and minerals), and 800mg Piracetam at lunch, with coffee throughout the day in the 4 days preceding my exam.

Woke up at 5am on exam day, took 800mg Piracetam, studied for 3 hours, took 1.6g Piracetam and a scoop of Spark at 8am. Started exam at 9am, with a coffee nearby. Felt very jittery and hyped up, but part of this could easily be my adrenal glands synthesizing full-bore. Kept drinking coffee. Scored 3rd highest in a class of 145, when I'm normally around 40-60th. Got a little "honors" star next to my name... Highest performance on an exam I've ever achieved.

I feel that the biggest part of the benefit comes from enhanced consolidation of memory and motivation to carry on while studying, this is when I noticed it the most. During the exam itself, the stress was simply too high to be very introspective and make a subjective analysis of the effect, but the objective results were obviously very satisfying. I really hope I don't acclimatize to the effects of Piracetam too greatly. I've read the effects are sustained pretty consistently, and side effects are few if any... but I am worried about desensitization. I would really love too keep these benefits going strong, particularly when I need them most; about 7 months from now. Any suggestions in that regard?

Also, I got a hold of some Sulbutiamine (a variant of thiamine -- vitamine B1 -- that more effectively crosses the blood brain barrier). This stuff seems to have a stimulant effect for me. In combination with piracetam, I feel I need less coffee than usual to stay focused and high energy. It also helped sustain me longer in aerobic exercise (cycling) and other basic calisthenics.

Using about 100mg of powder with my Spark. Tastes horribly bitter. Will make you very nauseous at high doses; will not, and have not desired to exceed the 100-200mg dose range.

Haha, and finally; I had been noticing some GI irregularities with Piracetam. Increased motility, flatulence, etc. Started eating some active culture Greek yogurt with breakfast, and swapped out for higher fiber bread. Problem seems to be solved.

One question from a fellow medstudent, what's your preferred method of studying? What works best for you ?

Depends a lot on the structure of your schools curriculum. Mine is organ based, and I'm currently in second year. Last year most of our tests were written in house by professors. This year almost all of them are retired NBME questions, intended to simulate the boards. Last year I studied lectures, lectures are also recorded. I would read my notes. If they confused me I would rewatch lectures. After becoming comfortable with the material I would begin practice questions and talk through concepts with friends. This year I watch all the lectures, but I do much of my studying with Pathoma, Gunner Training, Kaplan, and First Aid for Step One. I make flash cards on StudyBlue (mostly use other people's). Then I go through Qbanks from Kaplan and USMLEWorld.

A basic day right now is wake up at 730. Drink a cup of Spark, eat some oatmeal or eggs and toast, take about 1g of Piracetam. Go to lecture for 3 hours. Eat lunch, take 800mg of Piracetam. If there's more lecture, buy a coffee and take a choline if I feel like it. Go to three more hours of lecture, depending on the schedule. Come home, work out for an hour-- unless there's other obligations. Study for about 4 hours. Maybe get a beer with friends, or relax at home doing whatever. Go to sleep, sometimes with chamomile and valerian root or a puff of MJ if I'm feeling like it.

Exam week it's kinda whatever needs to be done in terms of caffeine and other nootropics.

After trying a few things now... I also got some DMAE and tried that yesterday and today.. I'm convinced that Piracetam is the most effective nootropic. I also think at this point, stacking too much more than a bunch of caffeine on it is actually kind of counter productive for me. A key thing for me is consistency, lack of crash, and side effects. I'm pretty involved in a variety of extracurriculars, so the basic day above is actually interrupted pretty often. I need to be adaptable, and so far nearly everything I've tried besides Piracetam has the potential to get in my way if I'm not regulating it. Even the DMAE gave me the up and down feeling I get from Huperzine A and Vinpocetin...(though not nearly as bad, and I may continue to try this out a bit). I'm assuming is the cycling is something like the disregulation and recovery of my acetylcholine pathways. When I mix in most of the other things I've mentioned now in this thread (granted there are certainly differences, but the pattern is generally the same), I can feel peak performance which slips into a bit of a mania at times, and then becomes distractable, begins to decline, and eventually becomes boredom and exhaustion. Then if I take a nap, I'm usually ready to go again... But I don't have time for naps, if I want to keep some time at the end of the day to relax a bit (which is important too).

The last thing Id like to try is the big one. Modafinil. This will definitely not be a daily supplement at all, but I think it may be pretty amazing for the second to last study day and during the exam itself. This stuff is hard to find, and requires either prescription or international order. If you work a night shift you may be able to get a prescription for Shift Work Sleep Disorder. I should be able to try some very soon... Will report back on that.

One thing that still has me concerned in the end is this: Piracetam seems great, and to me it seems like a very balanced nootropic that I'd like to take every day...forever, assuming there's not side effects or desensitization. The peer reviewed studies showed nothing bothersome in the patients they saw, but the studies were on the order of months at most, and the patients mostly had underlying mental illness of an organic nature to begin with. Anecdotes like my own here are all over the Internet, sometimes with peoeple claiming to have taken it for years. Sometimes they claim no side effects, or are still using it with good benefits. Sometimes they claim terrible sounding side effects and the perception of diminished mental capacity of after using long term. Not a single one that I've found from these sort of forums has attempted to complete their own objective study of their mental performance over time while using. For example, taking an IQ test every month... Assuming its a random assortment of questions. Or perhaps just monitoring their exam scores from something like medical school over the course of 2 years on the drug. Maybe I should try that... Hahaha. On top of that, how do we quantify the sustained effects of Piracetam? I haven't taken a dose in nearly 12 hours, that's more than 2 half lives, as my kidneys are in working order. Despite this, I still feel on top of my game and remember nearly all the details of what I've studied today. I just took a practice quiz on the material and scored nearly perfect. As far as I can tell, the effect is still going strong, yet the drug should be below therapeutic limits, as I understand it.

Still, all of these drugs, which in their very nature deal with the performance of the mind itself, really can't be judged for efficacy by the users own perception alone. Someone taking the drug for a long time could form complex, intelligent memories, hopefully they're lasting, and learn amazing things they may never have been capable of before. Upon cessation they could return to their normal state. They might be depressed by this. They might have forgotten, or simply deny that they are who they really are when not on nootropics. Then what? Is this a side effect of the drug? Not really.


I'd love to hear from people that have taken it long term and can quantify their mental performance before, during, and after Piracetam (or any nootropic for that matter).

Sorry if there are seemingly strange words or misspellings in this post, I'm typing this on a damn tablet and fighting the autocorrect all the way.. (I know I can turn it off, but it saves as many words as it screws...)














Edited by NoopMed, 07 September 2012 - 04:04 AM.

Sulbutiamine apparently has some dopaminergic effects. Probably explains its beneficial effects. Might also explain the nausea.

Kudos to you for being watchful of each drug/combination's effects -- this is how you learn what works for you, without being unduly influenced by others' claims. Individual differences in brain genetics are vast, and then when you throw in all the environmentally-driven alterations in form and function from a lifetime of plasticity... no wonder it's hard to pin down nootropics' effects, whether in DB/PC/R trials or in anecdotal reports.

As a suggestion on modafinil, your "lowest dose I can get away with" approach will serve you well there too. Start with 50mg; you may not need 200.

And as for the cLTP stack, I too am cautious about forcibly increasing concentration of a messenger compound present in every cell of the body. Surprisingly, many people taking artichoke extract with low-dose forskolin have not reported many ill effects, even when taking it daily. So maybe it's worth a try on the same conditions as modafinil -- lowest sufficiently effective dose, taken only a few times per month.

Keep us posted! Thoughtful notes from an observant medical professional are very welcome here.
Edited by jadamgo, 07 September 2012 - 04:15 AM.

Wiki cites a French study saying that "the administration of sulbutiamine reduces the release of dopamine in the prefrontal cortex, which increases the density of D1 dopamine receptors through a compensatory mechanism.[21] The modulation of dopaminergic transmission may also contribute to the ability of sulbutiamine to improve memory."

Im not sure how valid that is and I may certainly be wrong, but to me this suggests it's perhaps opposing or at least changing how other dopaminergics will act, and by increasing receptor density appears to increase the efficacy of other dopaminergic substances... Like cocaine, sex, etc... Which is a good thing... Haha, otherwise it might be very addictive.

Thanks for the positive feedback Jadamgo, much appreciated. However I have a disclaimer: I'm certainly not a medical professional just yet. One day I will be, but at this point I'm just doing my best to apply what I've learned so far. All this stuff is definitely at one's own risk and should not be considered medical advice. I certainly do my best here, and always, to follow the Hippocratic oath, and nothing I say will be intentionally malfeasant. However, it will be several more years of education and experience before I'll be seeing my own patients for real... Not to mention, most clinical physicians avoid the area of nootropics entirely because it is still very undeveloped in the literature and deviates from the central goal of helping the sick-- being more oriented towards enhancing the healthy. (***cough... Cosmetic surgery...cough***) Though I am very interested in neurology, so perhaps I could have a more professional future in some of this...

Hey, sorry I've been gone for a while.
Thanks for the Noopept report.

This French study that you've mentioned is something I've been searching for a long time, although not exactly. In fact I've been searching for something that could regulate D2 receptor density and make an impact on learning capabilities.

I've got a feeling that beside changing the dopaminergic transmission it could also increase persistance through the mentioned D1 receptors.

Lately I've been trying a little vinpocetine and huperzine A, but after initial lack of success I've stopped taking it.
Now instead I've started using the cLTP stack once daily - Forskolin (25mg) taken together with Caffeine (160mg) in a fat burning pill and two 250mg Artichoke pills.
It has definitely not made me feel worst. Nevertheless I didn't quantify any positive results so far.

I've done a bunch of control tests before changing the my routine, so expect an update on the effects in a few days.
Today I need to work and study to remove all the arrears, but in a few days I'll be looking into doing progress tests and ordering some sulbutiamine for more tests.
Edited by ranza, 07 September 2012 - 01:27 PM.

Oh, and for the jittery feeling you get from coffee - try taking L-theanine with it. A lot of people find it very effective (also it's found in best quality japanese green tea)

Good to hear on the cLTP stack, maybe I'll check that out soon, though I'm feeling pretty satisfied at the moment. I'm compelled to commit to a stack for a while and see how things go. It will likely include Piracetam, Sulbutiamine, and Spark only..with the occasional low dose modafinil if that goes well.

Had an interesting find this morning, this excellent data sheet on Piracetam from the NIH:

http://toxnet.nlm.ni...erm @DOCNO 7529

(not sure if links I add are showing up yet. I seem to remember something about a delay on that in the user agreement for this forum. let me know if you have trouble seeing the above.)

It has nearly all the pharmacokinetic data one could hope for on the drug, cites many studies, and lists some contraindications. Of particular interest to me were the animal toxicology studies and some of the pharmacokinetic data. Half life confirmed at 5 hours, volume of distribution at 0.7L, all renal excretion, no metabolites; which rules out a pharmacokinetic mechanism in explaining the extended effects of the drug... Also suggesting sustained NDMA and AMPA receptor changes. Somewhat humorously, they mention how Piracetam is likely persistent at low levels in the public water supply as sewage treatment is not designed to break it down, and it leaves the human body essentially unchanged. However, levels could not be measured in their attempt.

Toxicology studies on rats and dogs make me feel pretty good about the risks for long term, chronic use. The only toxicity of note was kidney damage for males rats after over two years of use at a dose that would be equivalent to a human like me taking 194 grams per day. I'm surprised the poor rats didn't start their own space program to escape the lab at that high of dosage. No mutagenicity, carcinogenicity, or other chromosomal damage was found after a year of treatment. No fertility risks were found. Lethal dosage was found in mice to be the equivalent of a human male taking nearly 1.5 kilograms! Because the nootropic effect was not the focus of these studies, it is not covered here at all. Though they do mention the anti arrhythmic properties.

Like i mentioned before, it does have antithrombotic propties, so people with reducing clotting ability or preparing for surgery should avoid it. Though it was probably an exaggeration when I mentioned the risks of GI bleed and aneurysm in the average, healthy person.


There's a lot more data, and it's probably pretty verbose to most people. Let me know if any of you would like any further explanations of it in easier terminology.

Hey, sorry I've been gone for a while.
Thanks for the Noopept report.

This French study that you've mentioned is something I've been searching for a long time, although not exactly. In fact I've been searching for something that could regulate D2 receptor density and make an impact on learning capabilities.

Dopamine' class='bbc_url' title='External link' rel='nofollow external'>http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Search&db=pubmed&term=18063800']Dopamine D2 receptor reduction seems to decrease sensitivity to negative action consequences, which may explain an increased risk of developing addictive behaviors in A1-allele carriers.

→ source (external link)

I've got a feeling that beside changing the dopaminergic transmission it could also increase persistance through the mentioned D1 receptors.

Lately I've been trying a little vinpocetine and huperzine A, but after initial lack of success I've stopped taking it.
Now instead I've started using the cLTP stack once daily - Forskolin (25mg) taken together with Caffeine (160mg) in a fat burning pill and two 250mg Artichoke pills.
It has definitely not made me feel worst. Nevertheless I didn't quantify any positive results so far.

I've done a bunch of control tests before changing the my routine, so expect an update on the effects in a few days.
Today I need to work and study to remove all the arrears, but in a few days I'll be looking into doing progress tests and ordering some sulbutiamine for more tests.

In regard to increasing the density of Dopamine receptors, that would be nice for certain types of learning and memory; most importantly what they call "procedural" memory, which relies heavily on the prefrontal cortex, amygdala, basal ganglia and other structures. It's often referred to "muscle memory." It's long term and often fear driven or at least driven through negative or surprise based reactions... Unexpected outcomes. It's generally thought of as below the conscious level, unlike declarative memory which is driven by the hippocampus and many areas of the cortex in conjunction. If you've ever seen the movie Momento, he has lost his declarative memory and relies entirely on his procedural memory to function. It's definitely an essential part of human function, though probably not always the most useful for medical school exams in my case. Definitely essential when learning new skills, even with minimal physical involvement, but not the best for the act of pulling relevant facts into the conscious working memory from the abyss of the mind, as well as storing them there.

In regard to theanine, you're spot on, and I do use this from time to time. It reportedly has effects on many neurotransmitters, but most strongly causes an increase in GABA. This is a very ubiquitous inhibitory neurotransmitter, which makes sense given its calming effect, and ability to reduce jitters. I use it as a parachute in this way, should I need to bail out from too much stimulation or anxiety, but I only use as needed because I'm usually seeking the opposite of relaxation.

Hey, sorry I've been gone for a while.
Thanks for the Noopept report.

This French study that you've mentioned is something I've been searching for a long time, although not exactly. In fact I've been searching for something that could regulate D2 receptor density and make an impact on learning capabilities.

Dopamine' class='bbc_url' title='External link' rel='nofollow external'>http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Search&db=pubmed&term=18063800']Dopamine D2 receptor reduction seems to decrease sensitivity to negative action consequences, which may explain an increased risk of developing addictive behaviors in A1-allele carriers.

→ source (external link)

I've got a feeling that beside changing the dopaminergic transmission it could also increase persistance through the mentioned D1 receptors.

Lately I've been trying a little vinpocetine and huperzine A, but after initial lack of success I've stopped taking it.
Now instead I've started using the cLTP stack once daily - Forskolin (25mg) taken together with Caffeine (160mg) in a fat burning pill and two 250mg Artichoke pills.
It has definitely not made me feel worst. Nevertheless I didn't quantify any positive results so far.

I've done a bunch of control tests before changing the my routine, so expect an update on the effects in a few days.
Today I need to work and study to remove all the arrears, but in a few days I'll be looking into doing progress tests and ordering some sulbutiamine for more tests.

In regard to increasing the density of Dopamine receptors, that would be nice for certain types of learning and memory; most importantly what they call "procedural" memory, which relies heavily on the prefrontal cortex, amygdala, basal ganglia and other structures. It's often referred to "muscle memory." It's long term and often fear driven or at least driven through negative or surprise based reactions... Unexpected outcomes. It's generally thought of as below the conscious level, unlike declarative memory which is driven by the hippocampus and many areas of the cortex in conjunction. If you've ever seen the movie Momento, he has lost his declarative memory and relies entirely on his procedural memory to function. It's definitely an essential part of human function, though probably not always the most useful for medical school exams in my case. Definitely essential when learning new skills, even with minimal physical involvement, but not the best for the act of pulling relevant facts into the conscious working memory from the abyss of the mind, as well as storing them there.

I agree with you, although I believe that there's a chance that increasing dopamine d2 receptors could have some benefits connected with consolidation. This study stated that the receptor density is connected with learning from errors, so I guess that might boost learning new material from flashcards. What do you think?

What is in your opinion of a med school student the worse side-effect of nootropics? What's the worst thing that can happen on short-term?

Worst case scenario imo, might be http://en.wikipedia....endent_learning

according to studies, gingko biloba is only effective shortterm. The nootropic effects diminish with chonic use. Where is the evidence that Bacopa Monnieri causes testicular problems?

according to studies, gingko biloba is only effective shortterm. The nootropic effects diminish with chonic use. Where is the evidence that Bacopa Monnieri causes testicular problems?

Yes, I definitely agree with you on Ginko, primarily from its activity as an MAOI. However, it is indicated for long term use in alzheimer's and vascular dementia for the antioxidant effects and supposed enhancement of cerebral bloodflow. For young healthy individuals however, catacholamine desensitization is not something to mess around with.

In regard to Bacopa; I cited the anti-fertility study above, but the link may not have shown up, so I'll add it again here: http://www.contracep...ct<br /><br />It's a rat study, so take it as you will. Most importantly, the testicular atrophy was shown to be reversible. The purpose of the study was to explore Bacopa's potential as a male contraceptive.

Worst case scenario imo, might be http://en.wikipedia....endent_learning

This has also been a concern of mine. It's the reason I've chosen not to explore any kind of long term use of stimulants, like dextroamphetamine (Adderall). (I imagine this will be a problem with modafinil as well, but I'd still like to sample it for one exam and see how things go...) There are numerous peers in my class using Adderall, and doing very well performance wise; but I recall reading somewhere a while back that stimulants do exhibit state dependent learning. Sorry I don't have a study to cite for that, I'm not really sure many studies have been done. When I take Piracetam I don't feel it really "altering my cognitive state," it's more like I just have better efficiency storing and accessing the material I cover. From what I'd understood about state dependent learning, it was more behaviorally driven, and I'd venture to say coffee changes my behavior more than Piracetam. It's hard to talk much about state dependent learning because it's a very loose concept that is hard to pin down to a specific mechanism or testable change in mental processes. As you can see from that relatively brief Wiki entry, a lot of the sources are exceptionally old. However, I don't dispute its existence, and do agree that's a definite risk.

As far as Worst Case Scenario with Nootropics? I'd be more concerned about irresponsibly dosing, mixing, and burning out on these things in an already stressful medical school environment. Piracetam appears to be pretty safe for the body on the whole, but little is known about the neurobiological and chemical changes that may be potentially occurring on a much smaller scale. Not to mention all the other supplements we've discussed here, which haven't had such a long history of use in the nootropic realm. Basically, worst case scenario in my opinion is permanent brain damage... bringing me back to my usual mantra of using the "lowest therapeutic dose possible!!!"

Some disappointments:

DMAE: does not work well for me while studying. Subjectively, it certainly makes me feel like I'm understanding the material perfectly well while covering it. Perhaps too well in fact. Took some short quizzes on the material I had just covered and did a bit more poorly than average. Thought maybe some rest and consolidation would help. Objective testing in a much longer quiz of all material from the last week showed significant deficits in material that I had covered specifically during DMAE sessions. Study sessions before and after, while using only Piracetam, were fine. I also experienced something similar with Huperzine A and Vinpocetine while studying, but had only used conversations with peers as a measure of material retention. All of the above are targeted at cholinergic augmentation...which I'm thinking may be best left to people with true cholinergic deficit (for example, Alzheimer's)

Sulbutiame: Tried this with mild dosing (100mg) throughout the day (per 4 hours) for two days back to back. Was feeling very motivated and energetic, but decreased long term memory access. Ceased on day 3 and felt like I had done a bunch of MDMA the day prior. Very sleepy, bradycardic, normal BP though and transient narcolepsy. Also experienced significant rebound anxiety.
Edited by NoopMed, 09 September 2012 - 08:02 PM.

Some disappointments:

DMAE: does not work well for me while studying. Subjectively, it certainly makes me feel like I'm understanding the material perfectly well while covering it. Perhaps too well in fact. Took some short quizzes on the material I had just covered and did a bit more poorly than average. Thought maybe some rest and consolidation would help. Objective testing in a much longer quiz of all material from the last week showed significant deficits in material that I had covered specifically during DMAE sessions. Study sessions before and after, while using only Piracetam, were fine. I also experienced something similar with Huperzine A and Vinpocetine while studying, but had only used conversations with peers as a measure of material retention. All of the above are targeted at cholinergic augmentation...which I'm thinking may be best left to people with true cholinergic deficit (for example, Alzheimer's)

Sulbutiame: Tried this with mild dosing (100mg) throughout the day (per 4 hours) for two days back to back. Was feeling very motivated and energetic, but decreased long term memory access. Ceased on day 3 and felt like I had done a bunch of MDMA the day prior. Very sleepy, bradycardic, normal BP though and transient narcolepsy. Also experienced significant rebound anxiety.

Quick retraction here... I think my observations about DMAE were contaminated by Sulbutiamine among other things. After a full clear of everything except Piracetam for several days, and then resumption of DMAE, I'm having great success with it. Improved focus, retention, etc. Am still noticing a bit of uncharacteristic seriousness and aggressiveness, as I noticed with other acetylcholine modulators... But it's nothing unmanageable. Will carry it out through the next exam and report back!

Side effects...bleh. Have had a significant blepharospasm (eye lid twitching) for about a week that worsens in the hours after taking piracetam. I also seem to be having something like a diffuse myoclonus (twitching/spasm) of many axial and peripheral muscle groups of my thorax and arms. This is interesting because I've never had this before, and these symptoms are actually along the lines of the indicated conditions for medical use of piracetam. Stopped piracetam for 2 days now, which initially increased the spasms significantly, but then resolved all spasms. Stopping left me feeling pretty exhausted and depressed in the washout period as well, but it was temporary. Feeling fine now, after two days off and some time out with friends on the town and relaxing. Reflecting on the last few weeks, I'm starting to realize I've probably been pushing myself too hard. Unfortunately, med school doesn't leave much time for R&R. As tempting as it is to be functioning at 200% all the time, it seems to be best to cycle off this stuff completely after about 2-3 weeks.

NoopMed,

May I ask what brand of Piracetam are you using, and where you get it?

Thanks