24 replies to this topic

[Lister]

If you haven’t heard of the Movie “Innocence of Muslims” at this point you must be living under a rock.

Directed by an unverified individual of unverified origin (as Sam Bacile doesn’t actually exist) this movie claims Islam is a lie and Muhammad was a pedophile. Since this video was posted online riots have began around the world. A US ambassador was killed along with several others and there have been thousands in damage.

I’m sure there’s plenty more info than that but this thread isn’t here to tell the news of the day; it's to promote a productive discussion on extremism and extremist views.

To me this is clearly the result of extremism. NOT specifically in terms of Islamic extremism; but extremism in practice on many sides. Extremism is wrong, plain and simple. Religion can and will drive people to extremist views but we must not forget that extremist views exist outside of religion as well.

This movie is no more rational than the violence it has caused. I like many others condemn it and the violence it has caused. I hope we as a religions/non-religious community can at least agree that the movie and the violence are wrong.

My fear though is that this is a sign of things to come. With Extremism on the rise in all faiths and non-faiths it seems that these types of things are going to occur more often. To add to this we have an instant worldwide media and information system that will only exacerbates the issue.

Instead of bickering over whether abortion is right or whether Jesus turned water into wine why don’t we focus on eliminating all forms of extremism? Doesn’t it seem like a worthy cause?

Remember that if, in your current frame of thought you cannot find extremist views you’re blind; it’s there.

[rwac]

To me this is clearly the result of extremism. NOT specifically in terms of Islamic extremism; but extremism in practice on many sides. Extremism is wrong, plain and simple. Religion can and will drive people to extremist views but we must not forget that extremist views exist outside of religion as well.

This movie is no more rational than the violence it has caused. I like many others condemn it and the violence it has caused. I hope we as a religions/non-religious community can at least agree that the movie and the violence are wrong.
...
Instead of bickering over whether abortion is right or whether Jesus turned water into wine why don’t we focus on eliminating all forms of extremism? Doesn’t it seem like a worthy cause?

Yes, perhaps the movie was in bad taste. However, you can't equate the movie and the response under the category of "extremism". The response was to riot and kill people, this is a false equivalence.

Edited by rwac, 15 September 2012 - 02:06 PM.

[Lister]

To me this is clearly the result of extremism. NOT specifically in terms of Islamic extremism; but extremism in practice on many sides. Extremism is wrong, plain and simple. Religion can and will drive people to extremist views but we must not forget that extremist views exist outside of religion as well.

This movie is no more rational than the violence it has caused. I like many others condemn it and the violence it has caused. I hope we as a religions/non-religious community can at least agree that the movie and the violence are wrong.
...
Instead of bickering over whether abortion is right or whether Jesus turned water into wine why don’t we focus on eliminating all forms of extremism? Doesn’t it seem like a worthy cause?

Yes, perhaps the movie was in bad taste. However, you can't equate the movie and the response under the category of "extremism". The response was to riot and kill people, this is a false equivalence.

This is another reason why I added the tag "fatal satire". Here in Canada you have freedom of speech. That freedom extends all the way up to what is reasonable. Hence if you yell "Fire" in a crowded movie theatre you can be arrested. This is because someone did it in the past as a joke, people panicked, ran and people were trampled to death in the process.

If this film was just a funny play at Muslims and the Islamic faith as a whole then yes I would agree with you that it is a false equivalence. If you watch the movie though it's clearly not intended to be purely for entertainment or for laughs; it is a savage attack on the Muslim faith from a Christian perspective.

Now I'm not saying that the Muslim world’s response to this has been acceptable or reasonable however it's an obvious result. The people who made the film have a clear understanding of Muslims and likely knew very well what the reaction would have been. On a smaller scale this can be equated to the reaction the US had due to 911.

Assuming that words cannot do as much harm as bullets would be naive at best.

I may be somewhat of a Pastifarian and I do enjoy poking fun at religion. That being said I don’t go into a church and insult its congregation pointing out that Jesus was a pedophile. That would be extremism within Pastafarianism.

The above example wouldn’t be on the level of violence; however if I were of another faith it could spark up a massive conflict. That’s what this movie has done and this is why I can make the connection.

[Turnbuckle]

Judging by the clip that's been published, the movie is bad on almost all levels. An amateur effort. Nevertheless, it is protected by the first amendment and doesn't matter if people take offense and become violent. In any case the violence was only sparked by the video, the anger that fueled it comes from long term US and Western policy and the more recent disappointment in the realization that Obama is no different from Bush in any significant way.

Edited by Turnbuckle, 15 September 2012 - 08:35 PM.

[The Immortalist]

Instead of bickering over whether abortion is right or whether Jesus turned water into wine why don’t we focus on eliminating all forms of extremism? Doesn’t it seem like a worthy cause?

Extremist's being extreme at abolishing extremism

[MrHappy]

Well written opinions everyone, but I think this sums it up pretty well -

 ImageUploadedByTapatalk1347754290.488492.jpg   69.89KB   26 downloads

[Lister]

Yeah I can't justify the reaction of Muslim world. I will say though it’s legal to light a match but you’d be a fool and perhaps a criminal to light a match in a room full of dynamite.

We can focus on the fire or we can attempt to verify the source in order to avoid further fires. Muslim extremism is definitely potent fuel but the spark was clearly this video. And this video wasn’t setup to entertain; it was made to be that spark.

One of the huge issues in the US is their overly proud attitude towards their freedoms. Freedom is great but unlimited freedom is not free at all. I can talk freely all I want, but the second my talking leads to a murder I can be listed as a conspirator.

Too much of anything is a bad thing; the same goes for Freedom of Speech.

Edit: To elaborate a bit more on that I mean Freedom of Speech used in the Yelling FIRE in a crowded movie theatre as a joke… example. I’m sure the vast majority of you don’t think it’s ok to yell FIRE in that situation (being as there is no fire) however one might argue that it’s ok to do that under Freedom of Speech. It’s not ok. That’s what I mean.

To bring it into the context of this thread; deliberately taunting a worldwide fundamentalist community known to react violently to these sorts of things is NOT ok. It should NOT be listed under Freedom of Speech. It is the same as committing the violence yourself just as pushing the button to a bomb under a building is the same thing as blowing up that building.

Edited by Lister, 16 September 2012 - 05:05 AM.

[DeadMeat]

Lighting a match in a room of dynamite is very different, because then the bad effect(KABOOOM!) would be directly caused by you and only you. Similar in the case of yelling fire in a theater, when people act on instinct to get out and you would be the only one to blame for getting people trampled.

I mean that in principle, people can't be held responsible for the response of insane extremists. Because well... they are insane. And can get offended enough to kill, by just about anything(from a silly video, a news paper cartoon to things like not wearing a head cloth if you're a woman or saying offending things like "I don't believe in Allah anymore").

[The Immortalist]

Yeah I can't justify the reaction of Muslim world. I will say though it’s legal to light a match but you’d be a fool and perhaps a criminal to light a match in a room full of dynamite.

We can focus on the fire or we can attempt to verify the source in order to avoid further fires. Muslim extremism is definitely potent fuel but the spark was clearly this video. And this video wasn’t setup to entertain; it was made to be that spark.

One of the huge issues in the US is their overly proud attitude towards their freedoms. Freedom is great but unlimited freedom is not free at all. I can talk freely all I want, but the second my talking leads to a murder I can be listed as a conspirator.

Too much of anything is a bad thing; the same goes for Freedom of Speech.

Edit: To elaborate a bit more on that I mean Freedom of Speech used in the Yelling FIRE in a crowded movie theatre as a joke… example. I’m sure the vast majority of you don’t think it’s ok to yell FIRE in that situation (being as there is no fire) however one might argue that it’s ok to do that under Freedom of Speech. It’s not ok. That’s what I mean.

To bring it into the context of this thread; deliberately taunting a worldwide fundamentalist community known to react violently to these sorts of things is NOT ok. It should NOT be listed under Freedom of Speech. It is the same as committing the violence yourself just as pushing the button to a bomb under a building is the same thing as blowing up that building.

tldr : our freedom should end when it begins to overlap another persons freedom.

[Lister]

Really says a lot when someone is too lazy to read the contents of a thread but still feel the need to post. I know I’ve been guilty of it in the past hence I try my best to avoid being disrespectful. Anyways we don’t all have the time but clearly we all want to share. Humans… pssh…

DeadMeat,

We recognize that dynamite is dangerous hence we don’t use it to prop up our chairs and tables. We also recognize that causing a panic in a confined space is not going to benefit the longevity of the species hence we don’t make it a common occurrence.

The Muslims actions are not acceptable; I don’t think anyone here is trying to justify their actions or release them of blame. What I’ve done in past responses is equate their response; the violence to the film itself.

Now that we know (as if we didn’t before) that making videos taunting Muslims will cause global riots and deaths would it be ok for me to make several more taunting videos? How about I keep making ever more violent videos about the Christian faith until I set them off? Or perhaps I make some videos detailing how the Chinese should hate the Japanese and keep tuning those videos until I get some conflict going specifically due to my videos.

“The Pen is mightier than the sword!” You think that line is a joke? The Muslim faith has some seriously big issues, I won’t disagree with that. But I will say that making a video taunting them is not acceptable in any way. I would jail the producers of that video just as readily as I would jail those that are setting fire to American embassies.

As was said freedom should be limited where it infringes on the freedom of others. The people dead as a result of this video have no freedoms.

[rwac]

Now that we know (as if we didn’t before) that making videos taunting Muslims will cause global riots and deaths would it be ok for me to make several more taunting videos? How about I keep making ever more violent videos about the Christian faith until I set them off? Or perhaps I make some videos detailing how the Chinese should hate the Japanese and keep tuning those videos until I get some conflict going specifically due to my videos.

“The Pen is mightier than the sword!” You think that line is a joke? The Muslim faith has some seriously big issues, I won’t disagree with that. But I will say that making a video taunting them is not acceptable in any way. I would jail the producers of that video just as readily as I would jail those that are setting fire to American embassies.

As was said freedom should be limited where it infringes on the freedom of others. The people dead as a result of this video have no freedoms.

It's easy to attack this movie because it has little artistic merit. Let's take it in the other direction. Would you pre-emptively censor the next Salman Rushdie (Booker Prize winner) because he wrote a book that "caused" several deaths?

Edited by rwac, 17 September 2012 - 03:34 AM.

[DeadMeat]

Now that we know (as if we didn’t before) that making videos taunting Muslims will cause global riots and deaths would it be ok for me to make several more taunting videos? How about I keep making ever more violent videos about the Christian faith until I set them off? Or perhaps I make some videos detailing how the Chinese should hate the Japanese and keep tuning those videos until I get some conflict going specifically due to my videos.

“The Pen is mightier than the sword!” You think that line is a joke? The Muslim faith has some seriously big issues, I won’t disagree with that. But I will say that making a video taunting them is not acceptable in any way. I would jail the producers of that video just as readily as I would jail those that are setting fire to American embassies.

I think taunting people without good reason is never ok. And I definitely don't think it's ok in this case. But just not because in this case people got killed in response. Since that response is not justified in any way and therefore should not be taken into account. Otherwise you would stimulate their extremist behavior, because their violent response would work.

As was said freedom should be limited where it infringes on the freedom of others. The people dead as a result of this video have no freedoms.

I never really got what people meant with that. Just about every freedom infringes on somebody else’s freedom in some way. Like the famous freedom to drive, versus bugs(and peoples) freedom not to get splattered on the windscreen. Or freedom of speech versus the freedom to experience the authentic feeling of living in a mad theocracy or dictatorship as North Korea.

[zorba990]

Interesting timing...
http://books.usatoda...insight/r845096

[Lister]

Probably more or less Freedom within reasonable limits of overlap. So my freedom to not get squished vs. your freedom to drive a car is reasonable if there's a side walk for me to walk on. If you now take a freedom to drive on the sidewalk you've crossed that reasonable threshold.

Just like writing a violent novel is reasonable but writing a letter to someone you know containing a death threat is not reasonable. I would say that this movie crossed that reasonable limit hence my response.

I would talk more about how incredibly wrong the Muslims reaction to this has been however I think that would be a pretty short conversation (I could be taunting you into starting that conversation… who knows!). It is interesting though to see some of their reactions (Holding up signs saying "This doesn't represent us")

[JLL]

Ah, political correctness.

Now that we know (as if we didn’t before) that making videos taunting Muslims will cause global riots and deaths would it be ok for me to make several more taunting videos?

Yes.

If you made a joke about someone being gay and they went on a murder spree, should we stop telling gay jokes? No -- people should stop going on murder sprees instead.

How about I keep making ever more violent videos about the Christian faith until I set them off?

That too is a part of free speech, so yes, that's okay too.

Or perhaps I make some videos detailing how the Chinese should hate the Japanese and keep tuning those videos until I get some conflict going specifically due to my videos.

That's okay as well.

The Muslim faith has some seriously big issues, I won’t disagree with that. But I will say that making a video taunting them is not acceptable in any way. I would jail the producers of that video just as readily as I would jail those that are setting fire to American embassies.

That's because you're obviously a leftist, who values political correctness more than individual freedom.

Your whole logic is backwards anyway; simply because muslims react violently to X, doesn't make X wrong, now does it? What if they started reacting violently to people chewing bubblegum, should we ban bubblegum because "we know how they will react"?

As was said freedom should be limited where it infringes on the freedom of others. The people dead as a result of this video have no freedoms.

"Your rights end where my feelings begin."

And what kind of "freedom" did this video infringe upon? Freedom of religion? Did it ban them from practicing Islam? No. Throwing bombs and killing people is infringing on your right to be alive, however.

Here's a tip: stop being spineless!

[Lister]

I would say it takes a spine to have the courage to see logic rather than fearing for the removal of your freedom. Tell me you’re not afraid of your freedoms being taken away. Tell me that you’re not making those arguments because you see ANY restriction on freedom as a slippery slope leading to Communism and Totalitarian rule. You can’t because you’re afraid.

There is such a thing as Reasonable Freedoms. Here's a tip: stop being spineless!

[MrHappy]

Boys, when these sorts of excuses have been made for religious beliefs in the past, we ended up with the crusades.

My philosophy on religion is pretty simple - you can believe in whatever flying spaghetti monster you like, as it doesn't in any way impact *negatively* on non-believers.

[shadowhawk]

Interesting to see these reactions. We have criticized the art of the film, whether it creates a reaction and who is irresponsibility for the reaction. Free speech rights as well have been defended. Other religions have been tarred with the same brush. Kind of like racism, they are all the sane.

I bothered to look up and watch the poorly made film. I ave studied Islam for years and my question regards whether it is true or not. I have a lot of issues beside the ones you have made.

Here is the film.

[shadowhawk]

FULL MOVIE 74 min.

[ScientiaPotentiaEst]

Freedom of speech is tricky thing. For example, I'm from Europe and I think it's quite two-faced of some European countries who claim that freedom of speech is always protected by the constitution, yet at the same time one can not state that the Holocaust didn't happen or was greatly exagerated (some gouvernments give fines or you could face jail time)
You could argue that the Holocaust factually happened and that the existence of said prophet and his (holy) claimed deeds didn't factually happen.
But how does that really matter? The truth isn't important in freedom of speech, and it shouldn't depend on it.
Freedom of speech, in its essence, is saying what you want, when you want, regardless if the rest of the world disagrees with you and you're presented with the facts.

[Nootr]

All this is crap. Our enemies are not muslims but the guys who use religious feelings of people to make people quarrel to distract our attention from real problems such as poverty, injustice and unequality and finally the capitalistic crisis (both economical and spiritual). But their actual purpose is the control of the muslim countries for the sake of oil and gas, i.e. natural resources and the economical hegemony of US. How can it be that US produces 4 times less goods than consumes. It means it makes other nations work for them. The only reason why this still continues is that there is internationalistic hidden government and informal treaties according to which it has been decided to make US the center of the capitalistic Roman Empire. So instead of solving problems they use the rule Divide and Conque.
I agree that muslims' response was not equal to the apperance of silly soap opera movie which means only that some muslims are not clever or cultured enough to preserve their dignity and just ignore the shit movie. And that is the result of US and UK's policy who supported radical islamists some decades ago. They have created radical islamism which started to spread and conque the territories which had prevously been with peaceful islam traditions.

[shadowhawk]

All this is crap. Our enemies are not muslims but the guys who use religious feelings of people to make people quarrel to distract our attention from real problems such as poverty, injustice and unequality and finally the capitalistic crisis (both economical and spiritual). But their actual purpose is the control of the muslim countries for the sake of oil and gas, i.e. natural resources and the economical hegemony of US. How can it be that US produces 4 times less goods than consumes. It means it makes other nations work for them. The only reason why this still continues is that there is internationalistic hidden government and informal treaties according to which it has been decided to make US the center of the capitalistic Roman Empire. So instead of solving problems they use the rule Divide and Conque.
I agree that muslims' response was not equal to the apperance of silly soap opera movie which means only that some muslims are not clever or cultured enough to preserve their dignity and just ignore the shit movie. And that is the result of US and UK's policy who supported radical islamists some decades ago. They have created radical islamism which started to spread and conque the territories which had prevously been with peaceful islam traditions.

the movie was poorly done but are you saying it does not represent events described in the Holy books of Islam? Which ones?

[Nootr]

I have not read the Koran book so I can't answer. Most muslims that I know are normal, neither homosexualists nor pedo, nor radicalists. Moreover, I have talked to a girl from Iran recently and she turned to be a nice one. she said that in her muslim traditions woman and man are considered equal and that man has only one wife. But the bad traditions come from Saudi Arabia which is the best USA's friend there. So what can I say is that you, people of america, live in an injustful country which does not care a damn about Chrstianity or Peace in the world, which supports radicalism for the sake of natural resources. I hope some day you will rise, americans. I believe in you.

Edited by Dan Brown, 30 October 2012 - 08:35 PM.

[Lister]

I have not read the Koran book so I can't answer. Most muslims that I know are normal, neither homosexualists nor pedo, nor radicalists. Moreover, I have talked to a girl from Iran recently and she turned to be a nice one. she said that in her muslim traditions woman and man are considered equal and that man has only one wife. But the bad traditions come from Saudi Arabia which is the best USA's friend there. So what can I say is that you, people of america, live in an injustful country which does not care a damn about Chrstianity or Peace in the world, which supports radicalism for the sake of natural resources. I hope some day you will rise, americans. I believe in you.

"homosexualists" ...

I agree that the USA is a bit too materialistic. But I don’t agree; the US does care about Christianity. The US is far more religious than Europe (including Spain). In my opinion the push for neutral education (Math, Languages, and Science) in Europe over religion is the main reason for its enlightened society. Too bad enlightenment doesn’t pay the bills eh?

[Nootr]

I have been shocked after I leant that USA puts people to jail or fines for growing vegetables in own gardens to make people buy vegetables from transnational and transgenic corporations. I was also shocked to see the video that people were arrested for dancing and embracing near the memorial. Americans you live in awful country...
The Christianity in America is false. It is dead everywhere I think, including Europe. Church must be in heart the new testament says and it's not like that in capitalistic society where inequality is considered normal.