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Bipolar and supplements


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#1 johnmk

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Posted 04 April 2005 - 12:55 AM


Most all of the supplements and nootropics I see mentioned in this forum are rather stimulating in nature. Is anything safe or perhaps even helpful for a bipolar individual who may swing from depressive to manic with the introduction of a stimulant? Are there any moderating compounds out there that don't dumb one down as much as the prescription drugs? The only thing off hand that I know (or think) isn't a stimulant per se is piracetam. Would this possibly induce a manic episode? Conjecture, theories and replies very much appreciated.

Thank you,

-John

#2 psychenaut

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Posted 04 April 2005 - 08:08 PM

Hello John,

We sell a lot of pharmaceutical grade EPA for this kind of issue. Read the supporting evidence carefully, and understand that only a pure EPA, not a EPA/DHA combo will produce the desired results. To insure full potency we keep ours refrigerated until delivery to you- I would be doubt any other supplier does that.

Always take with food to avoid nausea, and ramp the dose up to a level you find effective. With this product, there are none of the side effects you are concerned with. Good luck to you.

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#3 REGIMEN

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Posted 04 April 2005 - 08:45 PM

There's a book i happened upon at Borders last week, "Healing: Anxiety & Depression", that outlines 7 types of depression/anxiety(bipolar is retermed as are some more common names for others) based on definitive differentiating regional brain activity and prescribes particular groups of chemical, cognitive, and social therapies for each type. There's a quick reference table in the back of the book and mentions that the types with manic effects should avoid stimulating compounds...one I believe was piracetam(if not stimulating, it was for another reason...hey, sorry I'm not certain but I was taste-testing some 12 different books at the time). It may be worth a short trip to skim for free at the bookstore to confirm this.

Edited by liplex, 20 April 2005 - 10:19 AM.


#4 LifeMirage

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Posted 04 April 2005 - 11:38 PM

For those with Bipolar Disorder I usually recommend the following:

EPA 2,000 mg
Lithium (From Lithium Orotate) 10-20 mg
Theanine 200-500 mg take up to 1,000 mg as needed
A coenzyme B-Complex
Glycine 1-5 Grams as needed.
Inositol 6-12 Grams

Drugs that effect Serotonin or Dopamine in excess or NeuroStimulants in high doses can worsen Bipolar symptoms.

5-HTP, Deprenyl, Pyritinol, Vincamine are examples.

But the Racetams don't have these effects in my opinion to the degree that can cause a problem.

Proper dosing is the key.

#5 REGIMEN

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Posted 20 April 2005 - 10:18 AM

Drugs that effect Serotonin or Dopamine in excess or NeuroStimulants in high doses can worsen Bipolar symptoms.

-LifeMirage

Would supplementing L-tyrosine 'tamper' with serotonin or dopamine levels, LifeMirage? I read the D.Tolson article at 1fast and also read a statement elsewhere that states it may be detrimental to supplement as it can alter and destabilize dopamine levels during or with time away from regualr use. I started taking whey protein to supplement my protein intake as digestion of late has been ...difficult... and I've noticed that each serving has a sizable amount of L-tyrosine(at least more than I was adding as straight L-tyrosine powder to juice each morning). I have some bipolar tendencies stemming from a post-hyperthyroid treatment state(manic irritability, stress surrender). Should I be concerned about daily supplementation of 300-700mg of L-tyrosine?

You also list 2g EPA which makes me wonder if DHA is admissible for EPA's therapeutic effects as there is so much crosstalk about the role of each constituent. Just would like to know if my NOWf00ds SUperEPA pills are ok for this as they contain both.

#6 LifeMirage

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Posted 20 April 2005 - 10:34 AM

LifeMirage

Would supplementing L-tyrosine 'tamper' with serotonin or dopamine levels, LifeMirage? I read the D.Tolson article at 1fast and also read a statement elsewhere that states it may be detrimental to supplement as it can alter and destabilize dopamine levels during or with time away from regualr use. I started taking whey protein to supplement my protein intake as digestion of late has been ...difficult... and I've noticed that each serving has a sizable amount of L-tyrosine(at least more than I was adding as straight L-tyrosine powder to juice each morning). I have some bipolar tendencies stemming from a post-hyperthyroid treatment state. Should I be worried?

You also list 2g EPA which makes me wonder if DHA is admissible for EPA's bipolar effects as there is so much crosstalk about the role of each. Just would like to know if my NOWf00ds SUperEPA pills are ok for this as they contain both.


Taking too much free form L-Tyrosine can worsen mania symptoms, your protein source is fine. How many mg’s of tyrosine are you taking ? What are your current thyroid hormones levels?

You should take pure EPA 2,000 mg (AOR), but if you can not afford to then I would recommend country Life Omega Mood, which is mostly EPA.

Yours In Health


#7 REGIMEN

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Posted 20 April 2005 - 11:22 AM

So is DHA an inert or detrimental factor for bipolar therapy?

My thyroid levels are supposedly normal, near the low side of normal(from what i remember...I'll be getting all of my medical records soon) but fortunately good enough to avoid the necessitation of life-long T3/T4 administration. Over the last long stretch my control of emotions has been in flux and I'm really hoping I can level it off to some comfortable state of 'near-normal'; I've been noticing some of this lately with the addition of the whey and fish oil. The only problem is lack of focus and unfavorably weak memory that detracts from being able to read and make sense of what is read. I could go on and on here but if you could shed some light on the DHA/EPA question at top I would be satisfied.

#8 Chip

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Posted 20 April 2005 - 02:13 PM

Go do your due diligence. Try pub-med and general google searches. Andrew Stoll's book on Omega3 would be a fine read though more research has been done since then. After all that consider getting the following and trying two tablespoons per day, that's right, as much as 4 grams of the EPA each day to start. The regimen would cost about $100 a month at the attack dose. If after you do your research you consider the possibility that what I suggest here has a good chance of helping, then consider and weigh that against the dangers of bipolar disorder. People I have known with that malady have had not only their own lives quite ruined but also those of their immediate family members besides hurting any one who is close enough to care.

http://www.myvitanet.com/epli20pu.html

Oh, here's one of the first results I got via a google search using the two terms "bipolar" and "epa":

http://www.mcmanweb.com/article-15.htm

#9 LifeMirage

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Posted 20 April 2005 - 07:59 PM

So is DHA an inert or detrimental factor for bipolar therapy?

My thyroid levels are supposedly normal, near the low side of normal(from what i remember...I'll be getting all of my medical records soon) but fortunately good enough to avoid the necessitation of life-long T3/T4 administration. Over the last long stretch my control of emotions has been in flux and I'm really hoping I can level it off to some comfortable state of 'near-normal'; I've been noticing some of this lately with the addition of the whey and fish oil. The only problem is lack of focus and unfavorably weak memory that detracts from being able to read and make sense of what is read. I could go on and on here but if you could shed some light on the DHA/EPA question at top I would be satisfied.


DHA would appear to reduce EPA's effects. Huperzine A 100-200 mcg or a good form of choline (CDP-Choline 500-1,000 mg or GPC 600-1,200 mg) can help your memory and focus.

#10 REGIMEN

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Posted 21 April 2005 - 05:28 AM

Thanks LifeMirage for the tips and for pointing out that brand of fishoil(great ratio!). I really appreciate when people here are willing to help. Get that book done!

#11 cesium

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Posted 21 April 2005 - 08:03 PM

You might want to think twice before using Lithium Orotate. It is even harder (not to mention more expensive) than lithium carbonate on your kidneys.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....0&dopt=Abstract

Anyone taking therapeutic doses of lithium salts absolutely needs to have their blood levels of it closely monitored and have regular kidney function tests. There is a reason the carbonate and not the orotate salt is used in medicine.

#12 lynx

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Posted 21 April 2005 - 11:07 PM

Cesium, I appreciate your intentions in posting this, however, the conclusions reached by the authors of that abstract are totally ridiculous. The abstract basically supports the alt med community's assertion that orotates are better absorbed than carbonates, hence a much lower dosage is necessary. The 10-20 mg that LifeMirage mentioned is extremely conservative, regardless of the form of lithium administered.

Edited by lynx, 22 April 2005 - 12:06 AM.


#13 cesium

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Posted 22 April 2005 - 01:01 AM

The 10-20 mg that LifeMirage mentioned is extremely conservative, regardless of the form of lithium administered.


In psychiatry lithium is used at toxic or near-toxic levels often exceeding 900 mgs or more - the amounts quoted by LifeMirage would essentially be useless in effecting any change, positive or otherwise. And yes I have a bias against lithium, it is because someone very close to me went into renal failure despite close monitoring of her blood levels and ultimately required a kidney transplant because of it.

It also seems to be an odd substance to be promoting on the Nootropics & Brain Enhancer subforum. From this admittedly anti-lithium website:

http://www.sntp.net/...ium_breggin.htm

Lithium Toxicity

A recent report on noncompliance asks why a large proportion of patients, 43 percent in this study, stop taking their lithium. Michael Gitlin and his colleagues report in the April 1989 Journal of Clinical Psychiatry that patients most frequently stopped because of weight gain and mental impairment, with symptoms of "poor concentration," "mental confusion," "mental slowness," and "memory problems."

Consistent with its toxic effects on the nervous system, lithium causes a tremor in 30 to 50 percent of patients. Tremors can be a warning sign of impending serious toxicity of the brain, especially if it occurs along with other danger signals, such as memory dysfunction, reduced concentration, slowed thinking, confusion, disorientation, difficulty walking, slurred speech, blurred vision, ringing in the ears, nausea, vomiting, and headache. Muscle aches and twitches, weakness, lethargy, and thirst are other common signs of lithium toxicity. In the late stages of toxicity, the patient may become delirious and succumb to seizures and coma. EEG studies indicate an abnormal slowing of brain waves in a significant portion of patients routinely treated with lithium; the condition worsens with toxicity.(6)

Are There Permanent Mental and Neurological Effects?

The first indicator of generalized brain damage from any cause is often the subjective feeling of memory dysfunction. This awareness often develops far ahead of objective findings on neuropsychological or neurological tests. I initially expressed concern about memory impairment from lithium in my 1983 book on drugs. Three years later, concern about memory difficulties among lithium patients had become sufficiently widespread for the December 5, 1986, Psychiatric News to highlight research on the subject, in an article headlined LITHIUM AND MEMORY LOSS. Researchers were reporting "a major concern with respect to memory functioning." Patients on long-term lithium did more poorly on recalling numbers and on an information subtest of the Wechsler Memory Scale. Duration of exposure to lithium correlated with negative performance on a number of other memory measures. In addition, an unspecified but apparently significant number of patients reported memory difficulties.

The danger to memory sometimes goes unmentioned in textbooks, or it is dismissed. The Comprehensive Textbook of Psychiatry (1989) observes, "Patients may express concern about the effects of lithium carbonate on their learning, memory, spontaneity, or creativity. Although some impairment can be objectively delineated in detailed neuropsychological testing, most patients either do not experience this effect or do not find it unduly impairing" (p. 927). Yet as we've seen, many patients are so disturbed by these side effects that they stop taking lithium. Indeed, in a different section of the textbook it is stated, "Complaints of dysphoria, intellectual inefficiency, slowed reaction time, and lack of spontaneity are common, especially early in the course of treatment" (p. 1660). Meanwhile, others will be too blunted to complain.

One report raises the possibility of more severe mental deterioration on lithium. In 1985 in the French publication L' Encephale, M-P Marchand presents two cases of "progressive intellectual deterioration" from lithium treatment and relates it to the drug's known toxic impact on cerebral functioning. While no body of evidence has accumulated to confirm this finding, I am gravely concerned that someday we will find ourselves confronting mountainous documentation for dementia due to long-term lithium exposure, much as we must do now in regard to the neuroleptics (chapter 4).

#14 LifeMirage

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Posted 22 April 2005 - 04:26 AM

You might want to think twice before using Lithium Orotate. It is even harder (not to mention more expensive) than lithium carbonate on your kidneys.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....0&dopt=Abstract

Anyone taking therapeutic doses of lithium salts absolutely needs to have their blood levels of it closely monitored and have regular kidney function tests. There is a reason the carbonate and not the orotate salt is used in medicine.



The study you quoted showed the orotate form was far better absorbed, thus you would use a lower dose. The authors conclusions were short sighted. Let me explain. You give a patient 2 forms of a drug (note in high doses, as far as blood levels, kidney problems can occur) at the same dose, lets say 900 mg of orotate & carbonate. Because of its better absorption into the bloodstream it can reach levels similar to taking 1,000 mg or more of carbonate. You just take a lower dose.

The reason they use carbonate for lithium is the same they use for calcium..its cheaper.

The clinical applications of lithium orotate. A two years study.
Agressologie. 1973; 14(6): 407-11.
Nieper HA.


Sixty-four patients were treated with lithium orotate and observed for time periods ranging from four months to two and one half years. Lithium orotate is of truly unparalleled efficiency in the treatment of constitutional migraine, constant headache and hemicrania. Also in the treatment of depression, alcoholism and epilepsy, lithium orotate has proven very useful without any problems in the application. Lithium orotate is effective at uncommonly low dosages and causes no negative side effects. Lithium citrate and lithium carbonate are far less effective that lithium orotate. The specific principle is considered to be a directed intracellular transport of lithium by means of the orotic carrier molecule, which has a high affinity for tissue dependent on the pentose pathway, e.g. glia and the blood brain barrier. The directed carrier principle of the lithium orotate therapy makes a determination of the lithium level in the blood serum unnecessary. The effectiveness of lithium therapy as such is based on a membranal and cellular displacement of sodium.

Rat brain and serum lithium concentrations after acute injections of lithium carbonate and orotate.
Kling MA, Manowitz P, Pollack IW.
J Pharm Pharmacol. 1978 Jun;30(6):368-70.


Eight hours after intraperitoneal injections of 1.0, 2.0, and 4.0m equiv Li kg-1, the serum and brain lithium concentrations of rats were significantly greater after lithium orotate than after lithium carbonate. While little serum lithium remained at 24 h after injection of 2.0 m equiv kg-1 lithium carbonate, two-thirds of the 2 h serum lithium concentration was present 24h after lithium orotate. Furthermore, the 24 h brain concentration of lithium after lithium orotate was approximately three times greater than that after lithium carbonate. These data suggest the possibility that lower doses of lithium orotate than lithium carbonate may achieve therapeutic brain lithium concentrations and relatively stable serum concentrations.




In psychiatry lithium is used at toxic or near-toxic levels often exceeding 900 mgs or more - the amounts quoted by LifeMirage would essentially be useless in effecting any change, positive or otherwise.


The dose I recommended was in combination with other compounds, that I have had good success with many people starting out, if after time more is needed I will increase the amount. When you combine them a lower dose of lithium can be effective. If I just recommended lithium I would recommend a higher dose (usually 150 mg) under monthly blood testing.


And yes I have a bias against lithium, it is because someone very close to me went into renal failure despite close monitoring of her blood levels and ultimately required a kidney transplant because of it.


I am very sorry for your friend. Lithium can be safely used and effective for certain conditions, but when using high doses (like many compounds) it can be cause problems. The right dose can either protect you or damage you.


It also seems to be an odd substance to be promoting on the Nootropics & Brain Enhancer subforum.


I can understand your view based on what most people know about lithium. Most people think "Lithium isn’t that a toxic drug for crazy people" (the same misconception exists for other compounds example “GHB isn‘t that the dangerous date rape drug“).

But that simply isn’t the full story.

Lithium: occurrence, dietary intakes, nutritional essentiality.
J Am Coll Nutr. 2002 Feb;21(1):14-21.
Schrauzer GN.


Lithium is found in variable amounts in foods; primary food sources are grains and vegetables; in some areas, the drinking water also provides significant amounts of the element. Human dietary lithium intakes depend on location and the type of foods consumed and vary over a wide range. Traces of lithium were detected in human organs and fetal tissues already in the late 19th century, leading to early suggestions as to possible specific functions in the organism. However, it took another century until evidence for the essentiality of lithium became available. In studies conducted from the 1970s to the 1990s, rats and goats maintained on low-lithium rations were shown to exhibit higher mortalities as well as reproductive and behavioral abnormalities. In humans defined lithium deficiency diseases have not been characterized, but low lithium intakes from water supplies were associated with increased rates of suicides, homicides and the arrest rates for drug use and other crimes. Lithium appears to play an especially important role during the early fetal development as evidenced by the high lithium contents of the embryo during the early gestational period. The biochemical mechanisms of action of lithium appear to be multifactorial and are intercorrelated with the functions of several enzymes, hormones and vitamins, as well as with growth and transforming factors. The available experimental evidence now appears to be sufficient to accept lithium as essential; a provisional RDA for a 70 kg adult of 1,000 microg/day is suggested.

For other references: http://www.aor.ca/pr...6&exec_sum=summ



Some study topics.

Crit Rev Neurobiol. 2004;16(1-2):83-90.
Neuroprotective and neurotrophic actions of the mood stabilizer lithium: can it be used to treat neurodegenerative diseases?

“neuroprotective and neurotrophic actions of lithium have profound clinical implications. In addition to its present use in bipolar patients, lithium could be used to treat acute brain injuries such as stroke and chronic progressive neurodegenerative diseases.”

Stroke. 2003 May;34(5):1287-92. Epub 2003 Apr 3.
Chronic treatment with a low dose of lithium protects the brain against ischemic injury by reducing apoptotic death.

Mol Psychiatry. 2002;7(6):604-8.
Subchronic treatment with lithium increases nerve growth factor content in distinct brain regions of adult rats.



Yours In Health

#15 cesium

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Posted 22 April 2005 - 04:01 PM

LifeMirage;

Thanks for the reply. Your posts are some of the most informative on this forum and I always look forward to reading them because chances are it is likely I will learn something new from reading them.

If I just recommended lithium I would recommend a higher dose (usually 150 mg) under monthly blood testing.


At 3 times the bioavailability of the carbonate, this would be as reasonable therapeutic dose and would seem to fall within the parameters of what would be considered a "maintenace dose" as practiced in conventional clinical medicine.

The reason they use carbonate for lithium is the same they use for calcium..its cheaper.


LOL, I ain't buying that one. If it were supplement suppliers doing that I could see it, but we're talking a prescribed pharmaceutical here (carbonate) and I find it hard to believe that they would choose the carbonate over the orotate for the negligible difference in price unless there were some other considerations involved here, which there very well might be. It could be something as simple as the carbonate already having FDA approval and thus cheaper for them to offer, but if the orotate was indeed better absorbed with a corresponding reduced toxicity, I would suspect that someone would have already brought it to market by now.

#16 lynx

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Posted 22 April 2005 - 05:56 PM

It also seems to be an odd substance to be promoting on the Nootropics & Brain Enhancer subforum.

Do a search here for some of the more interesting properties of lithium.

#17 3VeRL0ng

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Posted 04 November 2008 - 12:55 AM

There's a book i happened upon at Borders last week, "Healing: Anxiety & Depression", that outlines 7 types of depression/anxiety(bipolar is retermed as are some more common names for others) based on definitive differentiating regional brain activity and prescribes particular groups of chemical, cognitive, and social therapies for each type. There's a quick reference table in the back of the book and mentions that the types with manic effects should avoid stimulating compounds...one I believe was piracetam(if not stimulating, it was for another reason...hey, sorry I'm not certain but I was taste-testing some 12 different books at the time). It may be worth a short trip to skim for free at the bookstore to confirm this.


Type 5 (Cyclic)

Made Worse by: All antidepressants, including supplement SAMe, can trigger a manic episode in vulnerable people

Diet: Higher protein, lower carbohydrate

Exercise: Intense aerobic

Herbs, Supplements: GABA, taurine, fish oil, gingko biloba, phosphytidal serine, vitamin E, Piracetam

Medications: Anticonvulsants such as Depakote, Carbatrol, Neurontin, Topamax, Lamictal, Gabatril, Dilantin

Psychosocial Treatments: Stress reduction, Interpersonal psychotherapy

#18 Yearningforyears

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Posted 04 November 2008 - 11:37 PM

Not sure if I have bipolar but it seems like cyclothymia with a tendency towards depression which switches into mania when using antidepressants.
So maybe I can play around a bit more with serotonin than someone who is more prone to become manic.

Supplements helping me:

Fish oil St johns wort
Ginkgo biloba tea
Bacopa Monnieri powder
Gotu kola
Rhodiola rosea
Catnip (for sleep)
Lots of exercise (walking 1 hour every day plus two days at the gym a week)
Vitamin B12 / magnesium-complex

Bacopa and gotu kola are really nice stuff.

Edited by Nicholas, 04 November 2008 - 11:38 PM.


#19 davidhudson01

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Posted 27 November 2008 - 02:08 PM

Thanks for sharing information about with you and this forum gives more information about Bipolar disorder Moods vs Mood Disorders
And this is some treate tips for Bipolar Disorder

Bipolar disorder is often treated with mood-stabilizing medications such as valproic acid, lithim and carbamazepine. These are effective for treating both the manic and depressive phases, as well as preventing future symptoms.

Antidepressant drugs may be useful during the depressive phase IF the antidepressants are used with a mood stabilizer. Mood stabilizers are very important in people with bipolar disorder. Without a mood stabilizer, antidepressants may trigger mania in people with bipolar disorder. (Keep in mind that people with bipolar disorder II may be misdiagnosed with depression only because they do not experience full-fledged mania. If these patients take antidepressants without mood stabilizers, it can trigger a manic episode.)

Bipolar Support Group




 

#20 caston

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Posted 27 November 2008 - 02:27 PM

Women can be quite turned on by my slight mania if they think i'm going to make a "inappropriate" sexual pass at them.
I think most mental problems are in their simplest form supposed to aid the individual in reproduction. It's because society acts to supress invididuals sexual and reproductive urges that we end up becoming unbalanced and developing mental issues. Supplements (or better yet good diet) will help but to really address the issue the core of sanity is a balanced (neither repressed nor overtly over expressed) sexual orientation.

#21 Imagination

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Posted 27 November 2008 - 07:11 PM

Most all of the supplements and nootropics I see mentioned in this forum are rather stimulating in nature. Is anything safe or perhaps even helpful for a bipolar individual who may swing from depressive to manic with the introduction of a stimulant? Are there any moderating compounds out there that don't dumb one down as much as the prescription drugs? The only thing off hand that I know (or think) isn't a stimulant per se is piracetam. Would this possibly induce a manic episode? Conjecture, theories and replies very much appreciated.

Thank you,

-John


Not really a nootropic but I would recommend trying st john's wort. You don't get wow effects, infact you probably won't feel any differen't apart from you don't get the depressive days.

Doesn't have a negative effect on mental ability either, actually will probably enchance mental abilities in directly as it can be difficult you focus or do any work when your feeling down.

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#22 bgwithadd

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Posted 28 November 2008 - 02:37 AM

Many people have both ADD and bipolar disorder and due well on stimulants. You also won't get much stimulation from most of the substances listed here. You could experiment and see how it goes. If you start to feel grandiose thoughts etc. then you are probably getting manicky.




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