64 replies to this topic

[bernard]

Can you share some of the bad side effects. I have some left-over anxiety symptoms form an incident that happened last christmas, and even though I've mostly fixed it all, I still get a littly anxious every now and then and a strong anxiogenic drug might make me fell utterly uncomofortable.

[Kwerl]

That would be a bad idea, because not just in theory everything works differently for everyone, but actually from the list of side-effects for modafinil, I get only some of the things. But anyway, it's nausea, skin tingle, anxiety (especially if I took a double dose, but still nothing strong), brain fog, maybe something like sleepiness. I don't know about armodafinil, but it seems to have less side effects.

[bernard]

Ok so noone said anything about excitotoxicity caused by pathological levels of glutamate. If I am able to get my hand on potent ampakines and combine them with other ampa-oriented drugs like aniracetam and whatnot, isn't there a chance for an opposite to nootropic effect caused by too much glutamate destroying neurons ?

This occurs when receptors for the excitatory neurotransmitter glutamate (glutamate receptors) such as the NMDA receptor and AMPA receptor are overactivated. Excitotoxins like NMDA and kainic acid which bind to these receptors, as well as pathologically high levels of glutamate, can cause excitotoxicity by allowing high levels of calcium ions (Ca²⁺) to enter the cell. Ca²⁺ influx into cells activates a number of enzymes, including phospholipases, endonucleases, and proteases such as calpain. These enzymes go on to damage cell structures such as components of the cytoskeleton, membrane, and DNA.

What about calcium channel blockers ? Maybe that's the solution, is there a calcium channel blocker that targets the brain specifically ?

[dsohei]

OP, i like your approach to this. i have a somewhat parallel track that i am experimenting with - the main difference being that my version of an ultimate/extreme nootropic stack increases creativity and communication between what is generally referred to as the left and right brains. basically, when i take a noot stack pre-exercise which contains chocomine, guarana, huperzine a, vinpo, theanine, oxytocin, carnitines & cholines - then post exercise i am very in touch with my creative side, rather than my "rational" side. i can meditate in far more meaningful ways (meaningful to ME of course). so i am using noots not just to increase mental & physical performance, but a certain style of performance - almost a "crazy wisdom" kind of thing.

personally, i think the "uppers" need to be balanced with the "downers" - being high and inspired requires very firm grounding - so i do tend to focus on things like adaptogens (reishi, ginseng, astragalus, etc), pro-hormones (oxytocin, pregnenolone) and certain other substances (theanine) to deal with any added stresses (adrenaline, cortisol, inflammation) that may come from experimenting with things like the stack above or low dose lsd.

[bernard]

I agree. I used to lead a very extreme lifestyle some years ago and it took its toll. So I have some leftover generalized anxiety disorder which I have almost fully tamed. I'm currently doing some Himalaya Mentat (great stuff) and will probably include some Selank before I move into hardcore Nootropics. Selank is a powerful endorphine anxyolitic with mild nootropic effects which is safe and will be a great addition to my stack I think.

[dsohei]

I agree. I used to lead a very extreme lifestyle some years ago and it took its toll. So I have some leftover generalized anxiety disorder which I have almost fully tamed. I'm currently doing some Himalaya Mentat (great stuff) and will probably include some Selank before I move into hardcore Nootropics. Selank is a powerful endorphine anxyolitic with mild nootropic effects which is safe and will be a great addition to my stack I think.

the injectable peptides seem a bit crazy lol, but i can understand the desire to go there. i only ever experimented that route with hcg, but would like to try peptides or AAS if i understood more about how to recover from any negative sides. not counting the burgeoning costs of experimenting with the infinite combinations of diet, supplementation, exercise and lifestyle choices haha

i did add 60mg hordenine to my chocamine/guarana/carnitine/choline/theanine stack today and it definitely prolonged a very anxiolytic/euphoric effect, seeing as how hordenine is an maoi (B i think...?) and will prolong any effects of the xanthines and pea it makes sense as to why the combo of dmaa/pea/hordenine is talked about on the net. add theobromine, caffeine, naringin and i could see how it would be very stimulating as well as euphorically relaxing, but i'm cautious of the dmaa's effect on the adrenal system - just not sure that stimulating that frequently over time is actually healthy.

have you tried doubling the dose on the Mentat? something i've noticed over the years using herbal extracts is that the recced dose is usually the lowest possible, basically for a middle aged asian housewife, not an athletic 20-30-something western male. (not being prejudiced, just trying to paint a picture)
if the double dose works, go with that for a while and add more meditation and breathing techniques, you may not need to even try the selank.

looking forward to the ongoing explorations!

[bernard]

I've been using the Mentat for just a few days. It's a receptor modulator supplement so it will probably kick in after a few weeks. However Himalaya are not your usual vitamin/mineral supplement company, They are oriented towards sick people. They have multimple products for cirrosis, gout, hepatitis etc. The recommended daily dose of Mentat contains just as much mg of Bacopa as is suggested by nootropic suppliers. There is another Mentat DS (ds for double strength) but it's not available where I live. However I would increase the dose in time as well.

Other than that I'm into or used to be into bodybuilding A LOT. I have tons of experience with AAS personal as well and I run my own peptide business. Peptide injection are subcutaneous so no pain is felt at all. Diabetics shoot insulin SubQ a couple times a day - no pain.
I'm taking it very slowly. If that was a couple of years ago I'd probably be stacking all kinds of dangerous crap and reporting experiences here, but I'm not the same person I used to be.

[ocean.soul]

Ok so noone said anything about excitotoxicity caused by pathological levels of glutamate. If I am able to get my hand on potent ampakines and combine them with other ampa-oriented drugs like aniracetam and whatnot, isn't there a chance for an opposite to nootropic effect caused by too much glutamate destroying neurons ?


Quote

This occurs when receptors for the excitatory neurotransmitter glutamate (glutamate receptors) such as the NMDA receptor and AMPA receptor are overactivated. Excitotoxins like NMDA and kainic acid which bind to these receptors, as well as pathologically high levels of glutamate, can cause excitotoxicity by allowing high levels of calcium ions (Ca²⁺) to enter the cell. Ca²⁺ influx into cells activates a number of enzymes, including phospholipases, endonucleases, and proteases such as calpain. These enzymes go on to damage cell structures such as components of the cytoskeleton, membrane, and DNA.
What about calcium channel blockers ? Maybe that's the solution, is there a calcium channel blocker that targets the brain specifically ?

memantine solves this problem.

[bernard]

Memantine solves excitotoxicity problems ? How come ?

[ocean.soul]

I qoute from wikipedia:
"Memantine is a low-affinity voltage-dependent uncompetitive antagonist at glutamatergic NMDA receptors.^{[14][15][16][17][18]} By binding to the NMDA receptor with a higher affinity than Mg²⁺ ions, memantine is able to inhibit the prolonged influx of Ca²⁺ ions, particularly from extrasynaptic receptors, which forms the basis of neuronal excitotoxicity. The low affinity, uncompetitive nature, and rapid off-rate kinetics of memantine at the level of the NMDA receptor-channel, however, preserves the function of the receptor at synapses, as it can still be activated by physiological release of glutamate following depolarization of the presynaptic neuron"

[bernard]

What about the AMPA receptors ?

[bernard]

I just read in the Citicoline (CDP-Choline) booklet that it shouldn't be taken along with Centrophenoxine. Any ideas why ?

Edited by Tatsumaru, 03 November 2012 - 09:37 PM.

[renfr]

I qoute from wikipedia:
"Memantine is a low-affinity voltage-dependent uncompetitive antagonist at glutamatergic NMDA receptors.^{[14][15][16][17][18]} By binding to the NMDA receptor with a higher affinity than Mg²⁺ ions, memantine is able to inhibit the prolonged influx of Ca²⁺ ions, particularly from extrasynaptic receptors, which forms the basis of neuronal excitotoxicity. The low affinity, uncompetitive nature, and rapid off-rate kinetics of memantine at the level of the NMDA receptor-channel, however, preserves the function of the receptor at synapses, as it can still be activated by physiological release of glutamate following depolarization of the presynaptic neuron"

What about extracellular glutamate, isn't it causing excitotoxicity too? If glutamatergic NMDA receptors are inhibited then extracellular glutamate builds up as neurotransmission is low therefore this can cause a lot of problems too.

[Adaptogen]

seligiline vs modafinil...which should i go with?

[medievil]

Amp looks like what N2O is for sports cars lol.

True but as an example MB speeds up mitochondria 40% do that with a cars engine and it will handle to n2o alot better and much longer, even in lower ammounts the whole time fine if we are optimistic.

Lifelong amp addicts for 40 years return to normal health after addiction and can make dramatic improvement, wich allready shows you can push the body to its limits without too much problems.

Throw in semax for what it matters, it dramatically help cognition while also helps the brain, you really CAn go pretty far imo.

[bernard]

Do you think the body will be ably to supply enough oxygen to the mitochondrias ?

Edited by Tatsumaru, 04 December 2012 - 12:26 PM.

[medievil]

You might need EPO as an add on.

I know my stacks sound extreme haha but thats how i am and i beleive the body can be made capable of doing alot. (look at top athletes, einstein etc).

or ppl with that disorder that remember the exact details of every past day of their life.

[bernard]

No, I think the same way like you. I'm also interested in maximum potential. Extreme is the best way to go as long as its smart extreme not just take heaps of random pills.

[Limburger]

For what it's worth, I found that a double dose of Mentat was excessive for my purposes. Perhaps if I had ADHD I would feel differently.

I had been using a product called Sleep Eaze as a dual purpose supplement. It was an unusual formulation, just whole herb and extract combo of Bacopa monnieri and Nardostachys jatamansi. I enjoyed the fact that it helped slow the racetam-induced thought generation insomnia I had been experiencing, as well as provide me with the benefits of daily supplementation with bacopa.

I liked the look of the formula for Mentat DS, so I ordered some from India to use instead after I ran out of Sleep Eaze. Like bacopa (and many other nootropics,) the effects of the product are expected to be cumulative over time. As a treatment for insomnia, though, I hoped that a double dose would work immediately. Unlike Sleep Eaze, however, Mentat appears to be both noticeably (if mildly) anxiolytic and simultaneously mildy pushy. This pushiness offsets the sedating action of the jatamansi and bacopa, which is great when taken during the day, but totally ruined it for me as a sleep aid.

In short, I think it's a good supplement, but a double dose doesn't improve its action and may in fact detract from its efficacy. Everyone's brain chemistry is different, though, so try it out.

[bernard]

I actually went on and stacked regular doses of Mentat and Geriforte (both Himalaya products) with 4.8g Piracetam/day. Didn't start too well as you already know if you have read this thread. But a few days later it transitioned into a subtle yet powerful synergistic effect.

I know this is a bold statement but I think this combo cured 50-60% of my anxiety disorder in just 2-3 months. I haven't been taking anything since then and I feel great.

And I have to tell you, while my anxiety case wasn't the absolutely insanity nuts-like case, it was still a major major pain in the ass. Couldn't sleep, couldn't not sleep. Constantly afraid for my life, counting calories, being afraid even of vitamin supplements. Now I'm just fine.

[Limburger]

That's great news! I'm really glad to hear it. I'm not familiar with Geriforte, but I'm very impressed with the quality and potency of the Mentat syrup. As an above poster mentioned, I'm used to dilute, American grade dietary supplements and having to at least quadruple the recommended dose to get any discernible effect. When I was living in India, I was a bit dismissive of the mass produced OTC herbal formulations sold there. Clearly I was very wrong. Once again, congrats!

[Babychris]

Oh seriously I have two option in my mind.
First or I'm crazy or the world is crazy. I wan't to tell everyone that modafinil litterally killed me. I've take it for 1 month before my med exam and it was terrible first day of the exam I was unable to read what it was wrote on the paper. Second day I was too focused that I've done very well 1/3 of the subject... And on physical/mathematical stuff no imagination no creation... So I'm very very very bad for the end of the year. I'm kind of disgusted by noots
But I'm still attracted by the perfect stack but does it exist. I think if you're already smart or a bit crazy you don't need that stuff. Not sure I will retry some prami CDP choline. I wish i can have the perfect stimulant but I don't know how to get anything else that this shitty modafinil which have a looooot of side effect more than MDMA for me haha

[gray.bot]

Guys this is a truly awesome thread. Great discussion.

the brain have multiple directions not just forward glutamate is more vertical spike amplitudes

This is one of the funniest sentences I have ever read. Hahaha I am still laughing aloud every time I read it.

seligiline vs modafinil...which should i go with?

Both. At the same time.

[Babychris]

and how do you get selegiline huh ?

[gray.bot]

and how do you get selegiline huh ?

I've PM'd you a resource because I'm feeling kind today

[medievil]

Haha first time i actually read the whole thread, classic

[fenra]

I thought electical stimulation was the strongest?

[Endymion]

and how do you get selegiline huh ?

Selegiline made me feel quite depressed. It really messed with my mood and didn't motivate me as I'd hoped it would. If you're gonna try it, be careful.
I'd choose modafinil but maybe that's just me.

[Babychris]

yeah for motivation that's true modafinil should be better for the most of us but, I'm naturally (or maybe it's induced by a lot of drug taking) very very anxious and I suppose that I have some kind of mental "disease" so modafinil make me more paranoid and stressed. Selegiline is not a magic stuff but it's ok plus it's neuroprotective. I didn't notice side effect maybe a dry mouth a slight sleep disorder but nothing serious.
I'm pretty sure that Modafinil + Selegiline + AChI + (if anxious) ISRS or diazépam could be a pretty cool combo for working.

Edited by Babychris, 17 February 2013 - 01:30 PM.

[hedil]

Really great post...but in the end what do you recommend, what's the verdict...