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Shape shifters: How will we identify each other?


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#1 justinb

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Posted 06 April 2005 - 05:49 PM


When nanotechnology and our understanding of human physiology become advanced enough to allow our bodies to change form in a matter or seconds or minutes, how will we identify each other? Countless interesting scenarios start to emerge. Human beings put a lot on the physical appearance of someone. We identify someone almost solely on how they look. How are we going to identify each other if only our brains stay in a "static" state while the rest of ourselves change? It seams once physical appearance is no longer important, all that is left is our minds. If we download information from each other (using nanites in our organic brains) then how will we be any different then each other? Here is an interesting and frightening idea... How could we stop a deranged serial killer, or deranged anyone for that matter, if he or she (refering to their brains of course) could change shape whenever he/she pleased?

#2 jaydfox

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Posted 06 April 2005 - 07:00 PM

Interesting, I'm so focussed on the near-term that I haven't spent much time lately thinking about such mid- and far-future scenarios. I suppose by that point that we'd have mind augmentation, so we'd be relying on more than our traditional five senses. It could be as simple as a quantum-safe public key encryption system, where our friends could only be "faked" by having their private key physically stolen. If fractioned and integrated into their very minds, such a theft would be difficult without killing the host, or at the very least, reading their most private thoughts.

Such an electronic system could then be integrated with out "senses", so that it wasn't so cold and calculating, but natural and warm. A match could trigger a friendly emotion, a mismatch could trigger an anxious or alarming feeling.

Or whatever. I'm sure we'll think of a way to make it work.

#3 justinb

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Posted 06 April 2005 - 07:09 PM

Interesting, I'm so focussed on the near-term that I haven't spent much time lately thinking about such mid- and far-future scenarios. I suppose by that point that we'd have mind augmentation, so we'd be relying on more than our traditional five senses. It could be as simple as a quantum-safe public key encryption system, where our friends could only be "faked" by having their private key physically stolen. If fractioned and integrated into their very minds, such a theft would be difficult without killing the host, or at the very least, reading their most private thoughts.

Such an electronic system could then be integrated with out "senses", so that it wasn't so cold and calculating, but natural and warm. A match could trigger a friendly emotion, a mismatch could trigger an anxious or alarming feeling.

Or whatever. I'm sure we'll think of a way to make it work.


Yeah. We always do. I am more curious about the philosophical implications though.

Are you thinking about her/him again?
How did you know?
Because you just changed into her/him.
Oh, hahaha, I have to watch that.

Romance will never be the same again! [tung]


Yeah, about the near term though. We seriously need to focus on research and without fetal stem-cell research being legal in the U.S., true anti-aging programs will not be possible.

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#4 jaydfox

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Posted 06 April 2005 - 07:36 PM

Yeah, about the near term though. We seriously need to focus on research and without fetal stem-cell research being legal in the U.S., true anti-aging programs will not be possible.

(my emphasis)

Well, I wouldn't say they won't be possible, but I'd say such programs would be more difficult and take longer. How much more difficult, and how much longer, is speculation at this point. I used to think it'd be a difference of billions of dollars and of decades, but now I think the difference may just be of hundreds of millions of dollars and of years.

Still, even a difference of a few years, that's a lot of lives. Which means a lot of blood on the hands of those who oppose the research. Whether anyone will be held accountable remains to be seen, but I won't hold my breath. And anyway, the research is picking up steam thanks to the States, even if the Feds are behind the curve. So it may not be much of a difference after all.

#5 justinb

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Posted 06 April 2005 - 07:40 PM

(my emphasis)

Well, I wouldn't say they won't be possible, but I'd say such programs would be more difficult and take longer. How much more difficult, and how much longer, is speculation at this point. I used to think it'd be a difference of billions of dollars and of decades, but now I think the difference may just be of hundreds of millions of dollars and of years.

Still, even a difference of a few years, that's a lot of lives. Which means a lot of blood on the hands of those who oppose the research. Whether anyone will be held accountable remains to be seen, but I won't hold my breath. And anyway, the research is picking up steam thanks to the States, even if the Feds are behind the curve. So it may not be much of a difference after all.


Yes, here in California Stem-cell research is going ahead. Thanks to a movie actor.... Arnold will save us in real time too! [lol]

#6 123456

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Posted 06 April 2005 - 08:32 PM

It would be creepy to be able to mimic anything of the same mass. To the question, I do not know, perhaps by specific genetic coding; then again a mimic may be capable of changing Its genetic Structure(Composition and How it is built). I doubt there will be a way to tell one Shape Shifter from the other. One thing is for sure, Shape Shifters would make great Assassins and such.

#7 jaydfox

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Posted 06 April 2005 - 08:52 PM

If we download information from each other (using nanites in our organic brains) then how will we be any different then each other?

Another interesting question. I suppose that will be a difficult problem to come to grips with, and I suspect that the more "liberal" segments of society, the people first in line to upload, and first in line to share thoughts, are the ones who expose themselves to the most risk of such contamination problems, assuming that uploading even preserves "them" when the technology first becomes available. I suspect that more "conservative" people like myself will happily integrate with technology, but with much more apprehension, and in smaller and more frequent increments: baby steps. I don't mean people who avoid the technology at all costs, for such will be as unprepared as the masses who are now wandering on to the Internet. I'm talking about people who proceeed willfully, but carefully, never being the first to test a new technology, and always taking small enough steps that they have a chance to "step back" if necessary.

Actually, this thought leads me to an area that I've been thinking about lately, because I've been trying to think of a way that I could be convinced that uploading would actually preserve "me". You see, I have no doubt that if justinb uploads, the computer system to which he uploads would accurately carry out the intellectual and emotional responses appropriate to perfectly simulate justinb. In other words, it wouldn't just be a computer with a digital equivalent of his memory. I believe such a computer system would accurately be able to "think" like justinb, to react to his five "senses" the same way, to "emote" the same way.

Where I get hung up is whether it's really "him". The thing is, to me, it doesn't really matter. But now turn the tables, and it does matter. Even if an uploaded version of me will respond to others as I would, and even if an uploaded me would act and emote in a way indistinguishable from me in every respect to an observer, I am still left to wonder. Is it "me" doing that, or, for lack of a better term, someone else?

But what this got me to thinking was, what if I could offload some of my brain functionality and not tell the difference? At some level, qualia enter the picture. It still won't settle all my concerns, but it would certainly settle many of them if I could actually process one or more physical senses artificially.

For example, to actually "see", not just the ability to react to visual stimuli, which I can observe someone else do, but to actually have that qualitative experience myself, without the use of any organic portion of the visual system. Well, I shouldn't say without the use of *any* portion, but certainly no portion subsequent to the optic nerves.

Or if I could "feel", or "smell", or "hear", without the corresponding parts of the brain.

The tricky part is how far into the system to go before I'd consider it effective. For example, what if the visual processing done in the occipital lobe can be faked, but the actual qualia of "seeing" red or green is performed at the next step in the process (whereever that is, I'm not a brain guru).

#8 justinb

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Posted 06 April 2005 - 09:39 PM

Below quote is from here

This involves high-tech brain surgery; artificial neural networks, consisting of "chips" but structured to be compatible with biological tissue, are inserted into the brain and microscopically connected to individual neurons, to thus expand the cortex. These brain extensions are unprogrammed and neutral in structure; during the months following the operation the brain "takes them into use", just as normal neurons are employed, e.g. in early life or after brain damage. The patient experiences nothing abnormal, as the new networks, though silicon-based, behave exactly like natural tissue when it comes to processing incoming electric signals. These signals come from artificial synapses, carefully connected by the surgeon to thousands of neurons. Each artificial network contains around a hundred million virtual neurons, ten thousand of which receive, via the artificial synapses, impulses directly from the biological brain. Twenty of these networks are implanted in different locations in the cortex. The period following the operation is comparable to that after a mild stroke, when functions of damaged tissue are taken over by other parts of the brain; except that there is no damage.

Once the brain has incorporated the extensions and the neural activity is equally spread over old and new tissue, the twenty networks are electrically connected to a supernetwork containing ten to the twelfth virtual neurons, temporarily built-in in the chest; a new brain.

Over the course of several years, the brain functions gradually get to employ parts of the new brain. A situation evolves where the neural activity is divided over the two brains, that work as one. In this stage, only a fraction of the gigantic new brain is yet in use. The patient has hardly or not noticed the process, since it does not differ from the natural development of brain activity throughout life.

When the patient is approaching his natural death, the biological brain is, in phases, destroyed by means of subcranial injections. Each time a section has been eliminated, some time is allowed for the new brain to take over that section's functions, if this had not already taken place. Finally, about five years after the initial operation, the patient's neural activity is restricted to the artificial substrate. His awareness, his "self", occurs exclusively in the silicon-based virtual network. Now the new brain is logged in on a large supercomputer that supplies virtual sensorial information and a virtual world to live in. The new brain is removed from the body, and the body is cremated. The patient's mind has survived his physical death.


This is the type of uploading I would consider. Because if someone makes a copy of me, then it is just that; a copy. I would be looking at a copy of me, and the copy would be looking at me with the same thoughts at first and then they would ever so slowly start to diverge. With the above process, my mind would transpose the organic brain with the silicon (inorganic) brain. I would migrate to another medium. It is best said in the below quote from the same link.

Fascinating! I've seen more speculations on transposing your mind into a computer, but the big problem always was: even if you succeed in making a sufficiently complex neural network that is a copy of your brain, and even if awareness and "self" occur in it... it isn't you!! It's a copy of you. Your "own" consciousness would not "jump over" into the computer, but a second "self" would come into being. This is the ultimate problem of AI and immortality.



#9 Infernity

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Posted 08 April 2005 - 10:38 AM

Justin,

I suppose the information you download will be stored in a separated part of the brain, something like a 'read only' material.

I was thinking on downloading more as having access to understand totally someone rather than be him [glasses]

Yours
~Infernity

#10 justinb

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Posted 08 April 2005 - 04:23 PM

Justin,

I suppose the information you download will be stored in a separated part of the brain, something like a 'read only' material.

I was thinking on downloading more as having access to understand totally someone rather than be him  [glasses]

Yours
~Infernity


Yes, I would want to totally understand someone too. Morphological "people" is possible and probably will happen one day.

I am curious to the philosophical and social implications of Morphological people. It would make us take a whole new approach to identifying people; and with downloading the contents of the mind, how will we ever know who is who?

#11 Infernity

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Posted 08 April 2005 - 07:41 PM

Heh well Justin, as you recognize now. Moreover, who knows we may have electric ways to have these differences noticed.
Also, I believe the one who'll upload won't let his looks be used, you know. I am sure some will hack it, but hey to secure peace is to prepare for war- every era has it's badness, but we move on. We move on from one to another- that's how we live, there is point in living- we love challenges. Believe me. Without you'd be bored to tears [lol] just kidding, but we'd probably be something else you know- stupid we wouldn't be able to workout the brain because we wouldn't have a motivation to ho to do it.

Yours truthfully
~Infernity

#12 justinb

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Posted 09 April 2005 - 07:50 AM

Heh well Justin, as you recognize now. Moreover, who knows we may have electric ways to have these differences noticed.
Also, I believe the one who'll upload won't let his looks be used, you know. I am sure some will hack it, but hey to secure peace is to prepare for war- every era has it's badness, but we move on. We move on from one to another- that's how we live, there is point in living- we love challenges. Believe me. Without you'd be bored to tears [lol] just kidding, but we'd probably be something else you know- stupid we wouldn't be able to workout the brain because we wouldn't have a motivation to ho to do it.

Yours truthfully
~Infernity


This gets into a very interesting problem. How can anyone have the right to tell someone how they can look? Even on the cellular level? [tung]

#13 Infernity

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Posted 09 April 2005 - 12:45 PM

Justin

This gets into a very interesting problem.  If I made in exact replication of someone but changed one minute detail, then can the person (the original) still claim that the copy is him?


(note: gee lots of posts disappears, are you guys deleting them or what?)

However, you are starting a new argue which I've seen already, I'd say go through that thread: http://www.imminst.o...&f=47&t=5498&s= long but worthwhile, if you're really curiouse...

Yours truthfully
~Infernity




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