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The Anhedonia Thread

anhedonia depression attention l-dopa ssre adaptogen quetiapine consummatory anhedonia

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#241 Vieno

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 10:22 PM

You seem to define anhedonia as loss of enjoyment and subcategories as losses of specific types (consummatory, anticipatory, completionary) of enjoyment. The anhedonia terminology is awful as you can see if you browse this thread a little, huge misunderstandings can happen.

Anhedonia refers to some sort of amotivation, apathy and flattened emotions virtually always. This is what the anhedonia of depression, schizophrenia (soon medievil comes to argue about this), PTSD as well as of hypothyroidism, vitamin D deficiency and testosterone deficiency is (I suppose, I'm not completely sure). Consummatory anhedonia is a very novel concept that will probably need to be renamed before gaining popularity. It's not loss of enjoyment from doing something but loss of enjoyment when consuming pleasurable stimuli, say music, sex, sweets. Me and medievil for example do not get pleasure even from opioids without right medication.This is extremely rare and honestly, the condition/sympton anhedonia as generally seen has nothing to do with this.

Your condition sounds like anticipatory anhedonia. Anticipatory anhedonia is also a novel term. It basically means the same as anhedonia in normal language: the distinction between consummatory and anticipatory anhedonias is done very rarely. Anticipatory refers to inability to feel pleasure in anticipation of pleasurable future events, but that's a vague meaning, what the hell is pleasure in anticipation? Take anticipatory anhedonia as a mixture of amotivation, apathy and flattened emotions and you're on the right track (disclaimer: IMO). Thinking this way, your "anhedonia" sounds "anticipatory". It's cognitive in nature. No satisfaction from achievements sounds cognitive. It sounds like anhedonia in the word's typical meaning. That is anticipatory anhedonia.

Fuck, one just can't make any sense of this awful terminology. Fuck you psychiatrists, you are just confusing us all.

#242 airplanepeanuts

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 10:46 PM

Your condition sounds like anticipatory anhedonia.

Nope.
It sounds like a consummatory problem. Loss of enjoyment on completion of an activity: When you have completed something you enjoy yourself in the here and now you literally consume the pleasure derived from accomplishment.


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#243 Dissolvedissolve

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 10:51 PM

So for example, normally even simple tasks, such as tiding up your desk, tend to give a healthy person a feeling of reward and satisfaction afterwards, on completion of the task. But for me that good feeling of satisfaction does not arrive when I finish a task.


No offense, but I'm not sure anyone gets much reward from finishing things. Have you ever noticed how people keep compulsively seeking rewards even though previous rewards have yielded little? That realization is one of the major ideas behind a whole bunch of Eastern philosophical systems - ie Zen, Buddhism, Hinduism. My point here is not to get religious with you, since I am not religious, but just to suggest that your reaction is pretty normal. I don't think most people experience much satisfaction upon completion. You're done, and it feels nice for a brief moment, and then it's on to the next task. So it goes.

It sounds like a consummatory problem. Loss of enjoyment on completion of an activity: When you have completed something you enjoy yourself in the here and now you literally consume the pleasure derived from accomplishment.



Consummatory pleasure is contemporaneous with the stimulus. It is enjoyment of the stimulus itself, not before or after. For instance, enjoying music, sex, the "runner's high" (ie endorphins), a back scratching or massage - these are all consummatory. Pleasure after a stimulus would likely be dopamine based - a reward response to a completed goal.

Edited by Dissolvedissolve, 14 May 2013 - 10:52 PM.


#244 Vieno

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 11:12 PM

Indeed "completionary anhedonia" does not sound very pathological. It sounds like the typical anhedonia ie. anticipatory anhedonia in nature (anticipatory anhedonia is not essentially about anticipation despite the name IMO). If you Hip do not experience other typical anhedonia symptoms (no excitement, no motivation, no emotions, no general enjoyment in life) then I doubt there's any pathology involved. But obviously you haven't shared the details with us :)

#245 Hip

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 11:41 PM

Anhedonia refers to some sort of amotivation, apathy and flattened emotions virtually always.


If you Hip do not experience other typical anhedonia symptoms (no excitement, no motivation, no emotions, no general enjoyment in life) then I doubt there's any pathology involved.


I do also have emotional flatness (of the type called "blunted affect"), but emotional flatness is not the same as anhedonia, although the two are often confused. In anhedonia, the experience of pleasure and reward from life's daily activities is weak or absent. In emotional flatness, it is life’s normal emotional responses to situations (love, sadness, compassion, guilt, anger, joy, surprise, etc) that are weak or absent.

Note that there are two types of emotional flatness: blunted affect = you don't feel emotions inside you to situations that produce an emotion response in healthy people; flat affect = you don't express emotions.

Most of my symptoms started a few months after catching a nasty respiratory virus, most likely an enterovirus. This virus precipitated a number of permanent physical and mental symptoms. The mental symptoms include: depression, anhedonia, blunted affect, athymhormia (lack of motivation), severe generalized anxiety disorder, some mild anxiety psychosis. I also developed chronic fatigue syndrome from this virus, which brought on even more symptoms: brain fog, memory problems, sensory hyper-sensitivity.

It sounds like a consummatory problem. Loss of enjoyment on completion of an activity: When you have completed something you enjoy yourself in the here and now you literally consume the pleasure derived from accomplishment.


Yes I think you are right, what I have does sound most like consummatory anhedonia.


No offense, but I'm not sure anyone gets much reward from finishing things.


I used get a feeling of reward and satisfaction after every thing I did, even cleaning the bathroom, albeit a quite mild feeling of reward. This feeling of reward vanished after I caught the above described virus, which seemed to dramatically alter my brain function.

Edited by Hip, 14 May 2013 - 11:42 PM.


#246 Vieno

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 12:35 AM

Now the terminology is getting even messier. Consummatory anhedonia = no pleasure response to normally pleasurable stimulus. If you do respond with pleasure to normally pleasurable stimuli, then you do not have consummatory anhedonia. Period. Google some articles on the matter, consummatory anhedonia refers to inability to experience mu-opioid-receptor-induced (or similar) pleasure.

I admit that anhedonia may not be same as emotional flatness. But that's not exactly what I said, I said it involves emotional flatness, apathy, lack of motivation, lack of excitement etc. And I'm pretty sure anhedonia does normally refer to a condition that involves very absolute emotional flatness. You know how depression severity scales measure tendency to cry and put the inability to cry as the worst option? That's some serious emotional flatness.

Sounds like you have pathology after all, virus as a cause definitely implies that. Sorry to hear that. CFS is a beast, you should try low-dose naltrexone (LDN) for that, it may work wonders. It can work for anhedonia as well especially if it is CFS-induced (not sure how this works).

CFS and your other symptoms may be very annoying and therefore cause psychological problems. Make sure your anhedonia is not such (ie. dependent on your way of thinking) because if it is then it's pointless to discuss medications here.

Why do you think your "completionary anhedonia" (as I like to call it now) could not be described as just plain anhedonia? It does sound like that. You describe inability to get satisfaction from achievements, emotional flatness, depression, anhedonia and lack of motivation as your current problems - all of these could be lumped together as anhedonia. You sound anhedonic! Do you disagree? If indeed you have the typical anhedonia then I think it would be best to first fix CFS and if anhedonia doesn't resolve then look for various dopaminergic treatments. But it seems like anhedonia is not easy to treat so who knows what all you have to try. I think anhedonia may also tesolve by itself with hard-core stress reduction, there are anecdotes backing up this claim. Always depends on the cause though.

Edited by Vieno, 15 May 2013 - 12:38 AM.


#247 noos

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 01:29 AM

Is it a depression issue Hip?

#248 Hip

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 03:30 AM

Why do you think your "completionary anhedonia" (as I like to call it now) could not be described as just plain anhedonia? It does sound like that. You describe inability to get satisfaction from achievements, emotional flatness, depression, anhedonia and lack of motivation as your current problems - all of these could be lumped together as anhedonia.


Yes I do think I have anhedonia generally, but for some reason the "completionary anhedonia" as you call it seems to be the strongest, and I notice that aspect more that the consummatory anhedonia.


consummatory anhedonia refers to inability to experience mu-opioid-receptor-induced (or similar) pleasure


Very interesting. I'd like to know more about why the mu-opioid receptors are not being stimulated. Have you any further info on this?

Edited by Hip, 15 May 2013 - 03:45 AM.


#249 Hip

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 03:53 AM

Is it a depression issue Hip?


I do experience depression for short periods (usually not longer than a week), but my depression symptoms usually go away, and are not a major problem for me; whereas my anhedonia is ever-present, and is a problem for me.

Anhedonia can of course be a part of depression, but I perceive a distinct difference between anhedonia and depression. Depression often involves feelings of dejection, misery, loss of self esteem; but anhedonia is different: it involves a loss of pleasure.

Edited by Hip, 15 May 2013 - 03:54 AM.


#250 Dissolvedissolve

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 05:33 AM

Very interesting. I'd like to know more about why the mu-opioid receptors are not being stimulated. Have you any further info on this?


The old story was that DA = pleasure. Unfortunately, that's not quite the case. It turns out that DA is responsible for reward. The compounds responsible for pleasure - ie pleasure in the moment - seem to be opioid based. I've posted some studies in the anticipatory anhedonia thread if you feel like digging through it, but that's the general idea. Now it's also a bit more complicated because it seems there's some glutamatergic activity required to experience opioid pleasure.

If you do indeed have consummatory pleasure, then you should not experience pleasure with any of these:

Music (music is somewhat more complicated - non-opioid drugs are known to enhance it)
Orgasm
Food (sweets --> opioid release)
Runner's high
Opiate drugs

Now of course you probably have not used opiates in the time that you've experienced anhedonia, and I am not encouraging you to, but the surest sign of anhedonia would be an inability to experience pleasure from opiates - which I believe Medievil has reported.

Most who report "anhedonia" actually just experience the anticipatory aspect. For instance, individuals with schizophrenia report lower expected levels of enjoyment of food, but when they actually eat it, they report identical levels to neurotypical individuals.

#251 Vieno

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 09:30 AM

Very interesting. I'd like to know more about why the mu-opioid receptors are not being stimulated. Have you any further info on this?


Dissolvedissolve explains it pretty well. This whole thread is pretty much about that, you see I started this thread when I thought I have anhedonia but turned out I don't. Okay, it can be said that I have the consummatory subtype of anhedonia but honestly, after researching the semantics of this field it's pretty apparent that this condition should not be called anhedonia of any sort. Technically, in normal individuals the activation of the mu-receptors with endo or exogenous compouds (opioids) triggers numerous responses including pleasure, analgesia and respiratory depression. In me and in the user medievil, none of this happen. I've tried to get effects from morphine and codeine with no luck. However it's much more complicated of a pathology since non-drug-induced pleasure probably works by a variety of pathways and not just by the activation of the mu with endogenous ligands like endorphins. Opioid antagonists do not cause this consummatory anhedonia which makes the whole thing quite complicated. Indeed glutamate has probably something to do with this but so many others can too.

It turns out that DA is responsible for reward.


I think reward refers to the pleasure experienced when being presented with a stimulus. In the following paper "reward" is used when consummatory pleasure is discussed and "reward anticipation" when it's about anticipatory aspects: http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC3005986/

If you do indeed have consummatory pleasure [ANHEDONIA], then you should not experience pleasure with any of these:

Music (music is somewhat more complicated - non-opioid drugs are known to enhance it)
Orgasm
Food (sweets --> opioid release)
Runner's high
Opiate drugs


I take it you mean consummatory anhedonia, not pleasure. Anyway, as for that music, I think it's simple. Opioids add to overall pleasure. They are not known to particularly enhance the pleasure of various activities, they just add to it in general. On the other hand drugs like stimulants not only make you all excited etc. but they physiologically make pleasure responses stronger. We have hypothesized that increased glutamate release makes mu-pleasure stronger and if indeed stimulants induce this then the connection is clear. Psychedelics on the other hand may not only do the same but they also alter experiences otherwise due to psychedelic aspects and thus add to the possible pleasurable components: music gets new dimensions so surely there's a more to enjoy.

Now of course you probably have not used opiates in the time that you've experienced anhedonia, and I am not encouraging you to, but the surest sign of [CONSUMMATORY] anhedonia would be an inability to experience pleasure from opiates - which I believe Medievil has reported.


Right? :)

#252 Dissolvedissolve

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 06:46 PM

Sorry if my post wasn't clear. When I use the term "reward," I'm referring to DA release. I'm referring to the use of DA in reinforcing behaviors that are deemed to be beneficial. There is a certain enjoyable character to reward from cascading release of opioid peptides, and that I would call "pleasure." Theoretically, one could experience reward without pleasure. In other words, one can experience reinforcement of behavior without enjoying that. For instance, in the classic brain stimulation experiments, there was often a description of "pleasure," but in fact the only thing produced was a compulsion to keep delivering stimulation to the NAcc. I suppose the term "reward anticipation" could remove some of the ambiguity.

#253 Vieno

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 07:20 PM

I know what you meant, just wanted to point out that "reward" has another meaning too. For example, at the beginning of this thread, I myself used "reward" the same way as you just did, but then medievil "corrected" me. I'm not sure what is the consensus. The way you explain it sounds very reasonable but I'm just not sure if most people share that view. Do you know?

#254 Dissolvedissolve

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 08:05 PM

I'm just basing my terminology based on what I've read in some literature reviews on anhedonia. They've suggested that "reward" and "pleasure" are independent, at least theoretically. So that's what I've been using. I don't doubt that there are papers that suggest otherwise since the field is pretty new, and there are plenty of psychologists who are entirely unaware of the distinction.

#255 Hip

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 12:18 AM

If you do indeed have consummatory [anhedonia], then you should not experience pleasure with any of these:

Music (music is somewhat more complicated - non-opioid drugs are known to enhance it)
Orgasm
Food (sweets --> opioid release)
Runner's high
Opiate drugs


Very, very interesting, Dissolvedissolve. This is me: since I developed anhedonia seemingly as a result of that viral infection, the pleasure and high I get from orgasm has all but disappeared. Orgasm now is about as pleasurable as going for a piss, ie, no pleasure at all.

I used to run quite a bit, usually one or two miles every other day, and I always felt great after running; running would always life my mood considerably. But now since developing anhedonia, I get no pleasure or feel-good factor at all from running. As a result, I find I run less and less, because this exercise activity now seems like dull a chore.

I can't comment on opiate drugs, as I have no experience with these.


I am interested in why the mu-opioid receptors are not being stimulated in anhedonia. Is this because of an opioid receptor problem, or might is be more to do with low beta endorphin release?

Since viral infection and brain inflammation is the etiological perspective from which I tend to look at my mental symptoms, I wonder whether any inflammatory condition in the brain might be impeding the opioid system?

Brain inflammation usually involves the activation of microglia (microglia are the brain's resident macrophages), involves the release of pro-inflammatory cytokines IL-1beta, TNF-alpha and IL-6, and involves the production of reactive oxygen species (RAS) by means of the enzyme NADPH-oxidase released in the brain (these ROS are used to attack microbial infections in the brain).

Activated microglia can release a lot of glutamate, and this may lead to high levels of extracellular glutamate in the brain. Since the opioid receptors and NMDA receptors are interlinked and affect each other, perhaps such excess glutamate in the brain may have a negative effect on the mu-opioid receptors, leading to anhedonia?

I am trying to find an explanation for my anhedonia and my other mental symptoms in terms of an inflammation-driven etiology, because I am pretty sure that the virus I caught — and my body's inflammatory immune response to it — are the cause of these symptoms.

I know this because several other people in my social group who caught the same virus as me also started to experience anhedonia symptoms.

Edited by Hip, 16 May 2013 - 12:21 AM.


#256 Dissolvedissolve

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 12:31 AM

The inflammatory mechanism you've mentioned is very interesting. I am not an expert on inflammation, but I am well aware that it is implicated in chronic stress and depression.

It's interesting that you're discussing glutamate release via inflammation. I know that glutamate release is required to experience pleasure. That is, glutamate seems to play a permissive role - opiates have no effect when the glutamate system is dysfunctional. And so it seems that if your brain has downregulated or lost various glutamate or opiate receptors - then your ability to experience pleasure would be reduced. I do not know whether the problem is in the glutamate or mu-opioid receptors.

I suppose based on the inflammatory mechanism you've suggested, various anti-inflammatory or antioxidant supplements could perhaps be useful. However, if the damage is actual neuronal death rather than downregulation, that would not be ideal. The brain is quite resilient, so perhaps a longer-term recovery would be a possibility.

#257 Vieno

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 12:45 AM

Indeed too low glutaminergic activity appears to be the cause of my and medievil's consummatory anhedonia (CA). I need to point out that this appears to be an extremely rare condition and despite the apparent similarities in symptoms between your and our conditions, the pathology may be quite different. It's hard to know how similar our pleasure deficits are since all we've got is a couple of forum posts.

Hip, if you just can acquire an exogenous opioid give such a try. Knowing your reaction to such would tremendously help with diagnostics. You can probably just go buy a codeine-based cough suppressant. If you do not react to opioids then we share exactly the same consummatory-anhedonicc symptoms, however I strongly doubt this. It would be mysterious if an inflammation would have induced this condition that I believe to be genetic.

As for low endorphin release, google "endogenous opioid deficiency" (EOD) or "endogenous depression". It's a dysphoric condition that the sufferers believe to be caused by lack of endorphins (or their activity/release). That condition is completely and instantly healed by a low dose of an exogenous opiod (one with extremely severe EOD foung 30mg of codeine to completely abolish the disease) OR by low-dose naltrexone (LDN) which stimulates endogenous endorphin production. Being an opioidergic dysfunction one would expect this to be similar to CA, however the symptoms are largely different. I for example get zero pleasure from opioids, sex, music, sweet foods, excercise or even social interaction, yet otherwise my mental functions seem to be completely normal and I don't have anticipatory anhedonia at all. I don't have the dysphoria of EOD. CA is a bizarrely specific disorder in terms of the symptoms.

Edited by Vieno, 16 May 2013 - 12:48 AM.


#258 Hip

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 05:13 AM

Hip, if you just can acquire an exogenous opioid give such a try. Knowing your reaction to such would tremendously help with diagnostics. You can probably just go buy a codeine-based cough suppressant. If you do not react to opioids then we share exactly the same consummatory-anhedonicc symptoms, however I strongly doubt this.


What sort of dose of codeine would I need to take? And what sort of effects should I be looking for from codeine? A kind of runner's high good feeling? I found one cough mixture for sale that contains 15 mg of codeine phosphate per 5 ml.

Coincidentally, I have recently been experimenting with a short acting potent mu-opioid drug called dermorphin (this drug has a half life of just 1.3 minutes). I have reason to believe that dermorphin may be a possible treatment for chronic fatigue syndrome, so that's why I am experimenting. I am not sure if dermorphin will act in the same way as other longer acting mu-opioid drugs like codeine, but when I took some dermorphin (quite a low dose of it), I felt nothing at all.


I suppose based on the inflammatory mechanism you've suggested, various anti-inflammatory or antioxidant supplements could perhaps be useful.


Anti-inflammatory supplements proved very helpful for my severe generalized anxiety disorder — in fact, they pretty much cured my anxiety. I wrote some threads here and here (on a chronic fatigue syndrome forum) on the anti-inflammatory supplements that I found were the most effective for treating anxiety. These anti-inflammatory supplements also seemed to improve my anhedonia and other mental symptoms a bit.

I suspect that many people's mental symptoms (such as depression, anxiety, anhedonia, etc) might be cause by low-level chronic infection of some sort. A lot of the time, when you catch a new viral/microbial infection, you do so asymptomatically, so you actually acquire the microbe unknowingly. Then if it starts to precipitate mental symptoms, you will have no idea that a microbe is the cause.

Edited by Hip, 16 May 2013 - 05:20 AM.


#259 Vieno

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 10:01 AM

If you want to be extra careful, first take some 30mg (ie. 10ml of the syrup). Some people have hyperfunctionnal CYP2D6 enzyme which results in codeine being multiple times more potent than normally (body converts codeine to morphine by CYP2D6). If you get no effects, go up. 100mg should produce noticeable effects, I went up to 200mg to be sure.

Codeine, just like any opioid, should produce two clearly observable effects: pleasure and analgesia. The pleasure is probably similar to runner's high, just imagine any pleasurable activity without the activity itself! Just the pleasure. Opioids also have other effects among them general sedation.

I suppose dermorphin should induce same effects as other opioids since I would suspect an mu-agonist is an mu-agonist, however it appears to be not very well known of a drug and has no history of recreational use so I wouldn't count on it. Maybe it does have different function than typical opioids. Have you tried LDN btw?

Edited by Vieno, 16 May 2013 - 10:04 AM.


#260 Vieno

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 12:36 PM

Oh and what's the logic behind using dermorphin for CFS?

#261 Vieno

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 04:09 PM

By the way, inability to enjoy sex is somewhat common of a symptom of a multitude of disorders and by itself doesn't imply consummatory anhedonia (CA). Heck, it appears that CA is extremely rare of a condition (as inability to feel exogenous opioids without tolerance to them is pretty much unheard of) yet loss of enjoyment in sex affects a lot of people for so many a reason. In CA, it is solely the pleasure that is gone. There's no erectile dysfunction, no loss of interest in sex, no loss of arousement, no loss of anticipation of having sex or getting orgasm. There's no loss of general enjoyment, the only thing that is missing is that specific part of the enjoyment, the actual (probably opioidergic) pleasure.

Edited by Vieno, 16 May 2013 - 04:10 PM.


#262 Dissolvedissolve

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 07:34 PM

Anti-inflammatory supplements proved very helpful for my severe generalized anxiety disorder — in fact, they pretty much cured my anxiety. I wrote some threads here and here (on a chronic fatigue syndrome forum) on the anti-inflammatory supplements that I found were the most effective for treating anxiety. These anti-inflammatory supplements also seemed to improve my anhedonia and other mental symptoms a bit.

I suspect that many people's mental symptoms (such as depression, anxiety, anhedonia, etc) might be cause by low-level chronic infection of some sort. A lot of the time, when you catch a new viral/microbial infection, you do so asymptomatically, so you actually acquire the microbe unknowingly. Then if it starts to precipitate mental symptoms, you will have no idea that a microbe is the cause.


I went through and read the first ~8 pages of the first thread. The speculation as far as inflammation in the gut and nose causing neural inflammation is very interesting. I know that as long as I can remember, I've had nasal inflammation - now somewhat under control with use of loratadine (Claritin). I'll experiment with NAG and see if there's any effect. I've also coincidentally been using curry powder more recently, but I'll be picking up some pure tumeric and experimenting with ~1g per day in food. It so happens that it's delicious on chicken, so there's no need to bother with swallowing a powder.

#263 airplanepeanuts

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 09:20 PM

@Vieno

Medievil says he enjoys food and sex, so he does not have CA by your definition then?

Where does your definition of consummatory anhedonia come from, that it's just about the opioids? That seems rather technical and not really intuitive. In some pupmed abstracts cosummatory vs anticipatory means just what those words mean and is not directly linked to single neurotransmitters.

You shouldn't put too much merits to medievil's posts. I don't think his experiments would go through as science...

#264 Vieno

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 09:55 PM

You are completely right about consummatory anhedonia being a concept not related to single neurotransmitters. It describes a symptom in which pleasure is not experienced when "consuming" stimuli. However look at my situation. I seem to have an extremely rare brain disorder: mu-activation does not induce a reaction in me. Medievil seems to share this. We know a couple of other people who might have this too but nevertheless this is extremely rare. It's not mentioned in any literature. What should we call this?

Consummatory anhedonia is a bad name for it. CA describes a subjective experience, just like AA. It's not any specific disease. But on the other hand, there's only a handful of people in the world who even know the term. And then there's the fact that virtually all anhedonic's are in fact able to get pleasure from "consumption" of stimuli if they just take the correct attitude and so on. Not being able to get that pleasure at all under any conditions seems extremely rare. And it seems like it has to be mu-dysfunction, there's no other disorder that would cause the same problem. So CA has a strong connection to mu-dysfunction.

I'm not suggesting defining CA as a specific disorder. However in the context of "The Anhedonia Thread" I like to keep it that way, because 1) it doesn't seem problematic as unless you have mu-dysfunction you seem to be able to get pleasure in some ways and 2) because we need some name for this condition of mine and medievil's.

Also don't give too much value to pubmed terminology. Those writing the articles are experts on biology or on psychiatry, not on semantics. The toughest field in the world! :)

As for medievil, I put enormous merit him for one pretty fucking good reason. He is the only one discussing shit online who shares my condition. His experiments are still priceless. If something has abolished his CA then that's it. There's nothing in the world that is more valuable to me than that information. This doesn't make me blind to anything, for example I hate the way he claims and believes anhedonia to mean specificly our condition. For god's sake, there are millions of anhedonics' in the world and they all react to opioids! Semantics is not about what is right but about what is agreed. Formal science.

As for him enjoying food and sex, where did you get that from? Maybe he is on meds when that happens? I too enjoy food. I enjoy a lot of things. Writing here is sometimes enjoyable. Watching certain TV series is enjoyable. Sleeping well is enjoyable. Still can't get that fucking pleasure. So here we run into terminology once again. What the hell is pleasure if one can enjoy stuff without it? Well, it's a specific experience contributing to enjoyment.

Sex seems pretty pointless with this disorder so I suspect medievil really does not enjoy it off-meds. Give me your source for that claim! :)

#265 Hip

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 09:57 PM

I went through and read the first ~8 pages of the first thread. The speculation as far as inflammation in the gut and nose causing neural inflammation is very interesting. I know that as long as I can remember, I've had nasal inflammation - now somewhat under control with use of loratadine (Claritin). I'll experiment with NAG and see if there's any effect. I've also coincidentally been using curry powder more recently, but I'll be picking up some pure tumeric and experimenting with ~1g per day in food. It so happens that it's delicious on chicken, so there's no need to bother with swallowing a powder.


I have to apologize for the messiness and length of my two threads detailing the anti-inflammatory treatment of mental symptoms. I am trying at the moment to write up a more concise and organized account that is easier to read (but unfortunately my CFS brain fog often makes it difficult to be mentally organized).

I received feedback from quite a few people who told me that these anti-inflammatory treatments — especially the N-acetylglucosamine (NAG) — worked very well for their anxiety symptoms. Though equally, a few others said that NAG did not work at all.

It will be interesting to hear if N-acetylglucosamine and the other recommended anti-inflammatory supplements are of benefit to you. NAG significantly reduced my anxiety levels within hours of taking it; but the improvements in anhedonia and motivation only appeared after several months of taking a daily regimen of anti-inflammatory supplements, including NAG, turmeric, flaxseed oil, vinpocetine, high dose vitamin A, and high dose probiotics.

I can actually feel these anti-inflammatory supplements working soon after I take them, in the sense that they noticeably reduce the inflammation in my nasal cavity and sinuses, and reduce the feeling of inflammation I get in my head in general.

My view is that a chronic nasal or sinus congestion or inflammation, in cases where there is no overt signs of a significant bacterial or fungal infection, is probably an indication of some low level hard-to-detect chronic infection in the body. I suspect this low level infection then maintains the inflammatory sinusitis. This chronic inflammatory sinusitis, since it is in close proximity to the brain, may well be ramping up brain inflammation, which in turn causes mental symptoms.

Papers like this one suggest that infections/inflammation in areas outside the brain can trigger and increase inflammation within the brain. So by reducing your sinusitis with a supplement like NAG, you may also be reducing brain inflammation. Inflammation in the gut can similarly remotely trigger brain inflammation, so taking high doses of prebiotics and probiotics, which help counter gut inflammation, can help lower brain inflammation too. I found prebiotics and probiotics quite helpful for my anxiety symptoms.

In CA, it is solely the pleasure that is gone. There's no erectile dysfunction, no loss of interest in sex, no loss of arousement, no loss of anticipation of having sex or getting orgasm. There's no loss of general enjoyment, the only thing that is missing is that specific part of the enjoyment, the actual (probably opioidergic) pleasure.


In my case, there is significant loss of interest in having sex or thinking about sex, complete loss of anticipation of having sex (no interest in going to clubs and bars, which for most healthy people is often done on the pretext of getting or chasing sex). If you subscribe to the cliche that men think about sex one every five minutes (which from my own life, I'd say is accurate), well nowadays I'd say I think about it — and very fleetingly — only once or twice a week.

I have also mostly lost the ejaculatory ecstatic state (orgasm is in fact a mini-seizure of the limbic system, which I think may be the reason for the ecstatic feelings), and I have also the loss of the post-ejaculatory relaxation and feeling good state. Although physically there are no problems; all these sexual dysfunctions appear to be a brain based.

As an aside, in addition I have a near total loss of all the more romantic, emotional thoughts that relate to falling in love and forming an intimate relationship. I used to be quite romantic as well as sexually driven, but now I find I am neither.

I think the loss of the emotional, romantic thoughts may be in part due to the emotional flatness (blunted affect) symptoms I am experiencing. It may also be linked to my chronic fatigue syndrome symptoms, as I know that many people with a significant degree of CFS seem to find that the normal human desire and yearning to form an amorous relationship tends to disappear.

Note that anhedonia is not a normal symptoms of CFS; the virus I caught gave me CFS, but also gave me some added extra symptoms for free, such as anhedonia, blunted affect, and severe generalized anxiety disorder.

The mental symptoms of CFS are mostly cognitive dysfunctions (brain fog, short-term and working memory deficits, problems recalling words or names, loss of focus and conscious awareness), as well as some mood disorders (typically depression, anxiety, panic attacks, irritability, mood swings). But anhedonia is not common in CFS.

I would say that out of all the mental symptoms I have, anhedonia is one of the worst, and the one I'd most like to remedy.

The anti-inflammatory approach I used did seem to help quite a bit for anhedonia. Originally my anhedonia was so severe that I had almost constantly suicidal ideation thoughts in my mind for several years. In fact it anhedonia is strongly linked to creating suicidal ideation, possibly because with no feeling of pleasure or reward in life, a human being simply loses all purpose for living. It is amazing how as creatures we are so dependent on our mental pleasure and rewards systems for giving us purpose and will to live.

Having used these anti-inflammatory medications for a year or two now, I can definitely say that my anhedonia has improved to the point that I now hardly get suicidal ideation at all. Recent research has implicated brain inflammation in a number of mental disorders, including depression, schizophrenia, autism and bipolar, so I think it is worth trying to reduce brain inflammation, to see if this improves the particular mental symptoms you are trying to treat.

As mentioned, the supplements I found the most effective for tackling brain inflammation are detailed in my threads here and here. Note that these two threads detail various anti-inflammatory supplements in the context of treating anxiety disorder; but as mentioned, I found these same supplements also noticeably improved my anhedonia and motivation after some time.


Oh and what's the logic behind using dermorphin for CFS?


I read an account of one individual, bedbound with CFS, whose health was greatly and quickly improved by taking an obscure but extremely potent Amazonian Indian medicine called kambo. I did some research on kambo, and found that it contains several active peptides, once of which is dermorphin, a mu-opioid agonist around 40 time more potent than morphine. For various reasons, I have a hunch that dermorphin may be the main curative agent in kambo, as far as CFS is concerned, because CFS does seem to involve mu-opioid system dysfunction (many people with CFS benefit from low-dose naltrexone, for example).

So I decided to try taking some pure dermorphin that I obtained from a chemical supplier. I took 100 mcg of dermorphin intranasally, and felt nothing at the time, but in the following three days, many of my CFS symptoms were noticeably improved. However, unfortunately on the forth day following my dermorphin administration, I got some temporary psychosis symptoms, which were unpleasant. I have now halted my dermorphin experimentation until I can figure out how to prevent this psychosis from recurring.

You can read about the use of kambo as a treatment for CFS, and my experiments taking pure dermorphin, on my thread here:

From Bedbound to Fit and Able in 14 Days: Effects of the Amazonian Medicine Kambo on a CFS Patient

#266 Vieno

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 10:17 PM

If all interest, excitement and anticipation has been lost then consummatory pleasure may be hard to get too. See, if you for example don't look forward to eating nice food, you may eat it without realizing it could be nice and therefore miss all the fun. You can't miss the enormous pleasure provided by heroin but with drugless everyday things it's entirely possible.

What do YOU think anhedonia is? You have said it's not the same as emotional flatness, however to me the two things often seem identical. You describe loss of romantic ideation, that's emotional flatness and sounds anhedonic to me.

Are you sure anhedonia is not common in CFS? I would imagine all the brain fog and cognitive slowdown induces anhedonia. When one is unable to process thoughts as quickly and efficiently as before, complex thought processes like emotions become challenging. Motivation, anticipation, excitement, interest, all these things are at least partially cognitive. If they're gone then we pretty much have anhedonia don't we, and I suspec in CFS they're often gone. Or am I wrong? I might be, definitely not an expert on CFS!

I have hard time following your thoughts on dermorphin. Why not just take an ordinary opioid like morphine then? Are you hypothesizing that dermorphine has similar mechanism to LDN? What do you mean CFS seems to involve mu dysfunction? Never heard of such claim. The power of LDN is not based on mu-activation (any opioid will do that) but on stimulation of endogenous opioid production.

Edited by Vieno, 16 May 2013 - 10:19 PM.


#267 airplanepeanuts

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 10:21 PM

Sex seems pretty pointless with this disorder so I suspect medievil really does not enjoy it off-meds. Give me your source for that claim! :)


http://www.longecity...y-of-anhedonia/ #25

#268 airplanepeanuts

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 10:25 PM

I too enjoy food. I enjoy a lot of things. Writing here is sometimes enjoyable. Watching certain TV series is enjoyable. Sleeping well is enjoyable. Still can't get that fucking pleasure.


That is the way it is for just about everyone who calls himself anhedonic: Of course your enjoying yourself a little bit: you wouldn't be able to go on otherwise. But *something* is missing.

I feel you tend to get stuck on semantics.

#269 Vieno

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 10:49 PM

That's interesting regarding food and sex, I might ask him personally about that. I can't understand how sex (at least orgasm) could be enjoyable with CA. Thanks for pointing out!

I too enjoy food. I enjoy a lot of things. Writing here is sometimes enjoyable. Watching certain TV series is enjoyable. Sleeping well is enjoyable. Still can't get that fucking pleasure.


That is the way it is for just about everyone who calls himself anhedonic: Of course your enjoying yourself a little bit: you wouldn't be able to go on otherwise. But *something* is missing.


BULLSHIT. Take severely anhedonic people and they are like "nothing brings enjoyment to me anymore". My CA is obviously very absolute as I get zero effects from big doses of opioids. Yet you wouldn't know I have anything if I wouldn't tell. I can be absolutely happy. I have many enjoyments in my life. I laugh and smile genuinely feeling like that. It is very specific what I lack. Isn't anhedonia - I mean the normal anhedonia - much more

I can't say exactly what is anhedonia but to me it appers that it involves inability to find enjoyment in things. No matter what you do things seem empty, pointless, neutral, boring. EVERYTHING is like that. Surely it can be described as "something" being missing, but an anhedonic would say everything is empty, everything is pointless, everything is neutral, everything is boring. I don't say that! Comedy is great! A greasy stake is great! Primary literature on drugs is great! Fixing my bicycle is great! Planning my future is great! Studying finance is great! Discussing semantics is great! A number of things are great. This doesn't mean my disorder isn't bad. It is bad enough for me to take any life-threatening drug combo to counter it. It's just different from anhedonia (the normal type).

I feel you tend to get stuck on semantics.


Surely you feel like that. It seems so pointless to constantly get back to semantics doesn't it. But don't you see the problem? If there's no problem then tell me what is anhedonia? What is consummatory anhedonia? What is anticipatory anhedonia? What do I suffer from?

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#270 Hip

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 12:31 AM

What do YOU think anhedonia is? You have said it's not the same as emotional flatness, however to me the two things often seem identical. You describe loss of romantic ideation, that's emotional flatness and sounds anhedonic to me.


Well one difference between the pleasure/reward response and the emotional response is that the former are always the same sensations, but the latter are many and varied, depending on context (for example, anger and/or fear if someone punches you on the face; jealousy if your girlfriend starts flirting with another guy; guilt if you have done something wrong). Emotions also often involve a strong body-wide physiological response (for example, anger or fear may cause increased heart rate an adrenaline to be pumped into the blood; embarrassment may make you blush red), but I am not aware of any body-wide physiological effects that pleasure or reward produce.

Also, most negative emotions will not involve a pleasure/reward response: anger, jealousy, envy, hatred, disgust, guilt, shame, embarrassment, etc tend not to evoke a pleasure/reward response.

However, it is hard to disentangle a lack of pleasure/reward response from a lack of an emotional response, because both response seem to be fundamental in providing the drive, meaning and purpose to human actions, and are therefore very similar in this respect.


Are you sure anhedonia is not common in CFS?


Depression is included in the official disease definition list of symptoms that CFS can produce, but not anhedonia specifically. Plus I rarely hear of CFS patients talk about anhedonia. There are some motivational issues in CFS patients, though.

I have hard time following your thoughts on dermorphin. Why not just take an ordinary opioid like morphine then? Are you hypothesizing that dermorphine has similar mechanism to LDN?


I am not offering any theory here, just trying to replicate the benefits of kambo, by taking dermorphin, one of its main components. Though interestingly, many CFS patients find that mu-opioid pain relief drugs do actually bring noticeable relief from many of the cognitive symptoms of CFS, like brain fog, so I am also thinking about trying regular mu-opioid drugs.


What do you mean CFS seems to involve mu dysfunction? Never heard of such claim. The power of LDN is not based on mu-activation (any opioid will do that) but on stimulation of endogenous opioid production.


Beta endorphins are low in CFS patients (ref: 1, 2), presumably resulting in under-activation of mu- and delta-opioid receptors. LDN stimulates beta endorphin production (by a rebound effect) and so is helpful in CFS.





Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: anhedonia, depression, attention, l-dopa, ssre, adaptogen, quetiapine, consummatory anhedonia

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