53 replies to this topic

[renfr]

This night is really awful. Slept for just 2.5-3h, it's like i'm getting punished for getting a decent amount of sleep last night.

I woke up this morning noticing i had a cold, and i thought "ok this will make me tired for sure tonight, i always sleep more when i'm sick". Been trying to get some more sleep for 4h now, time to give it up. Tried everything from last night. Damn, i really thought i was on to something :/

5-HTP is a very short term solution, it can cause serotonin downregulation and that also causes insomnia.
Do you feel electric or do you have some kind of tremor overall when lying on the bed?
Also, what about your HR, is it going wrong again?
5-HTP may have caused further insomnia, in principle bacopa supplementation should cancel out insomnia as it upregulates serotonin receptors.
If that isn't it (serotonin or acetycholine) then you should look into dopamine, maybe you have too much dopamine in your system which is concording with tachycardia and sleeplessness. Again bacopa can solve that issue as it reduces dopamine excitation.
Take an heavy dose of bacopa 500mg-1000mg and see if it works it out.

Also, have you ever had such sleeping problems before that happened?

Yeah it really sucks when you quit coffee and ETC. and the problem is still there weeks later.

Well, I don't think it's caffeine withdrawal because caffeine withdrawal would in fact cause the exact contrary in other terms excessive sleepiness, feeling tired all the time, lazy, depressed and so on.

Edited by renfr, 30 October 2012 - 09:05 PM.

[protoject]

im just saying it sucks when you quit taking one thing , thinking that it may be causing the problem, but in reality you had the problem to begin with and it had nothing to do with what you were doing... then again maybe more time is needed

[MKultra]

@ Kompota

I used Valium. So they supress REM sleep, i didnt know that, i was under the impression it would improve it. That's really bad, never gonna use them again. I've used them maybe 20 times in total (within a 6-7 month period), never two days in a row, usually weeks between usage. But yes this problem started when i used them a little more often than i had done before (twice in a week once). So maybe it really is those pills that started all this.

@ renfr

Yes 5-HTP only works very short-term, i know. I'll stop using it. Do you know anything about st John's Wort. It's supposed to affect GABA too.

No, i never felt "electric" or any types of tremor. My nootropic stack is called Neuro-1 which contains bacopa, caffiene, piracteam and all sorts of nootropics, so i havent used it in a while (and even when i used it i only took half the dosage or less because it caused some irritability). I should order Bacopa separately.

I've had sleeping problems like anyone else, but no, not stuck with a 3h pattern.

Managed to get 5h of sleep today, totally exhausted from having a cold + sleeping problems.

I can't seem to go cold turkey with the caffeine, the migrane is intense and nothing (except caffeine) helps. I can't do it now while
having a flu / cold, though i will stick to very weak doses of it.

[Kompota]

I've used them maybe 20 times in total (within a 6-7 month period), never two days in a row, usually weeks between usage.

Valium has a plasma half-life of up to 200 hours ! You may guess what was happening.

[MKultra]

Yes, it can range from 36 to 200, it's a lot and could probably be the cause of this.

Edited by MKultra, 31 October 2012 - 09:09 AM.

[Gerald W. Gaston]

I can attest to Clonazepam (Klonopin) screwing up deep sleep. I use a Zeo Sleep Manager and saw it drop to just a few minutes each night. REM is fine though with just Clonazepam for me. If I take the Fluoxetine (Prozac) and Zaleplon (Sonata) that my psychiatrist also prescribed .. no REM... either of the two alone knock out REM completely, and together I don't even get those few minutes of deep sleep... just straight light sleep.

[renfr]

Cut on caffeine right now. You don't need to go cold turkey, just withdraw over 3-4 days and it'll be fine.
Caffeine probably stays too much time in your system, you should restrict caffeine intake and take it only in the early morning.
When my caffeine tolerance was very low I could just take 100mg and feel wired and totally wide awake all the day even in the night so that could likely be your case too.

[MKultra]

gwgaston: Is it worth purchasing that device you think? It would be really interesting to monitor the quality of sleep, since it's something that is so important. Sometimes i've been thinking it's one of the reasons i never (even in my 20's) really build much muscle mass, because my REM sleep is really short.

renfr: yes i could be that it's in the system for very long. I've cut down to 56-75mg of caffeine (a single cup of espresso). I take it directly when i wake up to cure the migrane.

Got 5h of sleep again. It seems to slowly get back to normal.

edit: Heart rate is 75 BPM right now, pretty good.

Edited by MKultra, 01 November 2012 - 03:19 AM.

[Verne]

Like with many drugs here I need a prescription to buy melatonin

What's the penalty for importing melatonin? You can buy it off websites like Amazon. It has a similar classification here in Australia (prescription only) but I've never had an issue with importing. A friend of mine bought 3 x 300 melatonin tablets from Amazon and had no issues either. Since Melatonin is non-addictive and isn't classified as a dangerous drug you should be quite safe (legally) if you go the import route.

[MKultra]

They'd probably just destroy it and send you a letter, that's usually what happens for things that either arent classified yet or arent classified as narcotics. But sometimes you can be lucky and they didnt happen to check it ofcourse

Well my HR seems to have gone down considerably since i cut down on the caffeine. It's 70 right now which must be some sort of record for me (it was 93 just a few days ago sitting infront of the computer relaxed, same time). Sucks to not be able to have your favorite drug of all time though ;( But if it keeps me healthier i will quit it completely.

[renfr]

Really? Melatonin is prescription only here too and yet I bought a box from the UK and shipping went fine.
In the worst case your parcel will be destroyed and you'll have to pay a fine for importing scheduled drugs.

Well my HR seems to have gone down considerably since i cut down on the caffeine. It's 70 right now which must be some sort of record for me (it was 93 just a few days ago sitting infront of the computer relaxed, same time). Sucks to not be able to have your favorite drug of all time though ;( But if it keeps me healthier i will quit it completely.

In that case just take very low doses, it'll be as effective as high doses for other people.

[Gerald W. Gaston]

gwgaston: Is it worth purchasing that device you think? It would be really interesting to monitor the quality of sleep, since it's something that is so important. Sometimes i've been thinking it's one of the reasons i never (even in my 20's) really build much muscle mass, because my REM sleep is really short.

I think the device is a great investment for me... but then I monitor all types of things - BG (even though not diabetic), SpO2, etc.

And it's deep sleep where you would recover/repair from workouts mostly. Physically restorative phases of non-REM deep sleep.

[Gerald W. Gaston]

I'm a fast caffeine metabolizer according to 23andme... and I metabolize most drugs very quickly, but with dosing Clonazepam 3 times per day there is no chance of it not being in my system. I must find a way to get away from it, but currently it is providing relief (as oddly as this sounds) to the nerve pain after my tongue surgery. Other drugs like Gabapentin do nothing for it. I dissolve the Clonazepam on my tongue. Other benzos (like Diazepam or Lorazepam) do not have this affect. It would be nice to find it was something else in the pill (inactive ingredient/binder) that was doing it, but not likely. Of course its prescribed for my OCD and SAD. Would like to try xyrem to see if it would improve deep sleep, but the chances of getting it are extremely low.

Edit: fonts

Edited by gwgaston, 01 November 2012 - 06:01 PM.

[Ames]

Yeah, upon further reflection, I have to withdraw my GABA recommendation. I just don't trust it in consistent use. I apologize if you spent the ten dollars on the powder. However, it can still be useful as an emergency agent to keep on hand. Again, sorry, but I think that you should go another way. I won't be relying on it either.

[MKultra]

Since it's slowly going back to normal i think i'm gonna skip using any supplements for sleep, i don't like being (potentially) dependent on something for sleep.

gwgaston: you're probably right it's deep sleep and not REM.

[hippocampus]

I have a question for Zeo users: how does melatonin affect your REM (according to Zeo)?

[Ricky J]

MKultra,

Do you consume dairy or other high calcium alternative-dairy products? You may be calcium deficient. Due to my personal experience, when I have slept poorly, I have been calcium deficient from not consuming dairy or alternative milks (rice, almond, hemp, etc). GABA, melatonin, and 5-HTP all work to help with sleep, but when calcium levels are low, their efficacy is greatly reduced.
If you are, then perhaps try using a magnesium supplement. As magnesium is poorly absorbed by the digestive tract, a liquid magnesium supplement may be the best bet. It can be applied topically and the absorption is greatly increased. These products are marketed as "magnesium oil" and are very good products. The only downside is that magnesium "tingles" and can be uncomfortable when it is being absorbed through the skin.

Hope this helps,
Rick

[maxwatt]

There is much good advice in this thread. WRT to caffeine, people vary greatly in their sensitivity. I'm a fast metabolizer, can drink coffee at bedtime and sleep like a baby but it gives me heartburn, so I drink tea. You should have a good idea of your caffeine tolerance without a genetic test, but those will tell you how you metabolize it.

It sounds like the OP gave himself jet-lag. I frequently fly back and forth, US to China and have a protocol to deal with it.

I get out in the morning sunlight (light therapy) and take prescription modafinal (provigil, nuvigil, armodafinil) on waking. I may nap BRIEFLY if I feel a need in the afternoon, no more than 25 minutes. At night, melatonin, either 300 nanograms. half a gram, or no more than 600 nanograms. If I cannot sleep through the night, I get up and read. If before 3AM,another 300 ng of melatonin. Do not sleep during the day, force your self to keep going - hence the modafinal, but the short afternoon nap helps. I also take 200 mg of choline, or eat two eggs (based on the CRON-O-METER showing my diet lacks that amount of choline compared to ideal levels.)

This quickly gets me back on schedule, but I've noted: on the third day after going to China I usually feel extremely tired in the afternoon. Hence the nap.
On returning to the US, it can take up to a week to feel completely normal, but I can function. It helps to keep to a consistent, busy schedule.

[MKultra]

@ Ricky, yes i drink milk (and also often yoghurt / curdled milk - very common in Sweden) and I eat cheese daily so i'm pretty sure i'm not calcium deficient.

@ max
Thanks for the suggestions.

The amount of sleep i get is now back to normal, but i still wake up after 1-2 hours, then sleep 1-2h wake up again etc. No bigger problem to get back to sleep though (sometimes takes 30 min - 1h or so). But irritating that i now seem stuck in this pattern because it happened so often before that my body seems to believe it's the "proper pattern". I've noticed i very easily get stuck in certain sleeping patterns.

My pulse is pretty high when i wake up, so it could be a reason too, can't seem to sleep when i have a high pulse no matter how tired i am.

Quitting caffeine is really difficult (been using it daily for 10+ years now). I drink less than half than before, some days i go completely without, but it hasnt affected the amount of times i wake up with a high pulse. Can't believe how extremely dull and uncreative i get when i don't get my caffeine, scary almost.

It does seem to have lowered my overall heart rate, i've never seen it close to 94 BPM again (well except at night where i guess it can be over 100 sometimes), it's varies between 74-86.

Edited by MKultra, 10 November 2012 - 06:24 AM.

[Neal Cullum]

For last meal of the day try a big salad with something else if you have to or steamed vegetables. You might find they have a calming effect before you nod off. If you feel run down then large doses of vitamin c can help perk you up and it's good for you, you'll know if you've had too much because you'll need to visit the bathroom. niacin helps me loads, i use nicotinic acid which gives me a flush but you can get non-flush versions. I'm playing around with using taurine at the moment because i've heard my comments it helps with sleep but it's too early to comment on that.

[MKultra]

Thanks Neal. Though we've had several reports here in Sweden that Vitamin C i larger doses can cause kidney stones.

I'm back to a pretty normal sleeping pattern and for some reason i havent woken up with a rapid heart beat in like 2-3 months or so, i havent really changed my diet or anything and i still drink quite a bit of coffee.

When i think of it, one thing i've changed since a few months back is that i now often sleep in a different room and with the window open so that i get a lot of fresh air during the night, even did that during some really cold days (sweden can be really cold) it feels really nice.

Edited by MKultra, 03 May 2013 - 07:38 AM.

[Godof Smallthings]

@ Kompota

I used Valium. So they supress REM sleep, i didnt know that, i was under the impression it would improve it. That's really bad, never gonna use them again. I've used them maybe 20 times in total (within a 6-7 month period), never two days in a row, usually weeks between usage. But yes this problem started when i used them a little more often than i had done before (twice in a week once). So maybe it really is those pills that started all this.

@ renfr

Yes 5-HTP only works very short-term, i know. I'll stop using it. Do you know anything about st John's Wort. It's supposed to affect GABA too.

No, i never felt "electric" or any types of tremor. My nootropic stack is called Neuro-1 which contains bacopa, caffiene, piracteam and all sorts of nootropics, so i havent used it in a while (and even when i used it i only took half the dosage or less because it caused some irritability). I should order Bacopa separately.

I've had sleeping problems like anyone else, but no, not stuck with a 3h pattern.

Managed to get 5h of sleep today, totally exhausted from having a cold + sleeping problems.

I can't seem to go cold turkey with the caffeine, the migrane is intense and nothing (except caffeine) helps. I can't do it now while
having a flu / cold, though i will stick to very weak doses of it.

The coffee withdrawal migraines pass quite quickly after the first three days in my experience. Drink one cup of green tea in the morning the first three days, then completely go off caffeine. You can do it.

The following pieces of advice are a bit unorthodox, but I figure you have nothing to lose by trying them.

Non fluoride toothpaste. Why? Well, the rationale (and this is NOT supported by mainstream science) is that fluoride increase calcification of the pineal gland (that the pineal gland gets calcified HAS been confirmed). Some people theorize that calcification of the pineal gland impairs its ability to secrete melatonin, which can be detrimental to health. Of course, fluoride DOES have a pronounced positive effect on dental health, but I've been trying non-fluoride toothpaste now for over a year and have not had any cavities during this time, so I will keep it up until I see negative effects.

RF in your bedroom. Turn off your computer, wireless router, cell phone, etc. before bed. Get off the computer at least one hour before you go to bed at night. Turn down the contrast and brightness on your monitor.

Edited by Godof Smallthings, 13 May 2013 - 03:42 PM.

[MKultra]

Good advice. Yes i always try to turn off my phone, it's a comforting feeling that really helps with relaxation. The caffeine thing isnt just the terrible migrane, it's the rewarding feeling and the habbit.. But anyways, sleep is back to normal i would say, havent woken up from any rapid heart beat either lately.

[Picard]

I'll admit I haven't fully read this thread. I apologize if this has been considered before...

Have you had a sleep study? Waking up consistently after similarly timed blocks of sleep may indicate the prevalence of some sleep disorder that exacerbates in a specific stage of sleep.

Take Sleep Apnea for example. It's very common for sufferers' soft tissues at the back of their mouths to collapse. This then makes breathing either difficult or impossible (depending on the extent of the collapse). It's especially common for this to occur during REM sleep, which you might transition to every 1.5 to 3 hours.