61 replies to this topic

[Infernity]

Did you ever think why people wanna die?

Obviously, they are having hard lives and find they cannot handle it and simply will be better for them to die.

Now, why dying? simply all the badness never was in such case. That's the easy way to get rid of everything.

Now lets think for a second, what about all of what they are losing? all the thoughts, and singularity, isn't it worth preservation?

However, suicide became a way to get over your problems. Now, I was bothered- why can't people find a way to overtake their problems rather than drop it and lose EVERYTHING?!

I mean, the goal in getting killed by purpose is to have no problems, but the absurd is, you can simply try and find solutions while being alive, in that case you also earned your right to live!

The goal is not dying, but simply not suffering, so why are people so indolent and not having will power to just, deal with challenges?

They expected easy life? "everything's so perfect in your simpleminded world..." . Much like being dead, no points, no motivation...

Think about it.

If you get to situation you decide to suicide, just know- you could never have better life, because the life you expected and dreamed of are lacking reasons to live, simply do nothing and "everything's so perfect in your simpleminded world...", so I'd recall that crazy plan and come back to earth- till you're becoming equal to zero; Understood?


Hmmm, I was thinking, maybe suicide is actually an automatic way of nature for weaker-minded elements who may comprise failure of the race to erase themselves, for the sake of the order-nature.

Yours truthfully
~Infernity

[Matt]

I think people let their problem escelate and get worse and worse, then their illness takes control of them and they are not really thinking straight anymore. Its just one thing after another and they cannot handle situations very well in their current state.

You have to learn to stay in full control of yourself and not be so stressed cos it can get really out of hand quickly. Some people have problems tho that they are not in control of.

[Infernity]

Well, then we agree on the weakness, ain't ya Matt?

Yours
~Infernity

[kevin]

There are different reasons for suicide and many people who choose it are not weak at all.

Many people who kill themselves are strong willed. It takes an awful lot of determination and strength to overcome the will to live and to take one's own life. It takes a lot of arrogance to regard reaching out for help as a 'sign of weakness'.

It is an example of extreme isolation and denial of hope. It is a response to physical and psychological pain with the outcome being the preference for anything but the current reality.

[Infernity]

Hmmm, there is a point in your words Kev.

Lemme explain why I started this thread.
I get to hear lots of time the "I wanna die" sentence, but I know that those who say it, even if they really really mean it- that's not that they wanna die, they just think that's the only way to solve their problems...

I've been through hard times, I know what Matt is talking about. Now- I already have been in it, I know how to fight it away, or perhaps- become it's 'friend' and trick it......

I believe NOTHING worth dying for. Some will argue that. Hopefully no one will prove me wrong, but I am only led by truth...

Yours truthfully
~Infernity

[Trias]

Adi,
Some people suffer so much and are being humiliated to such extent that eventually they lose all traces of self-confidence, self-esteem, self-worth. Up to a state where they put on the balance LIFE and DEATH, and come to the conclusino that NON-LIFE would be better, either via a promsie of release or better life (faith, religion), or simply freedom from sufferings.

It is very easy for us, dwellers of developed countries and relative "easy life" , to say, HOW COULD THEY FUCKING BE SO WEAK!!? CHIN UP !! . But the fact is that we are exempt from many situations or coercions that these suicide-folks aren't spared off at all ... Indeed, I agree some people are stronger than others. But most people who are prone to suicide, usually suffer in such a way that damages and weakens their very psyche into believing there isn't any better alternative. Remember they are not like us; the everyday pain surronding them is preventing them to think of abstarct notions such as we do, they concentrate on their problems and anguish, will accept everything that might reduce their pain to some extent - hoping for "Better life" often fails to deliver the goods.

[Infernity]

[!] [ang] [angry] [ang] [!]

Damn that stupid internet failed connection whenI posted!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I cannot repeat myself! It wasn't a short one!
Sorry a lost post was here!! I'll just say I knew the "Only For The Weak" will catch your eye Daniel. The rest is lost.

Yours truthfully
~Infernity

Edited by infernity, 13 April 2005 - 12:50 PM.

[kevin]

I knew what you meant infernity..

Until we can control our psychological status well enough, there will always be some kind of 'pain' which will cause suicide, even if the pain is really only a pinprick in comparison to what others' may have experienced and not taken the same action. In this respect, tolerance to pain, of various kinds, is likely determined genetically, and those with low thresholds may tend to think suicide is more attractive than others whose pain thresholds are higher.

If a low level of tolerance for pain (of various kinds) is a sign of weakness then I would suppose you could have a point as well.

[jaguar]

Inarchunite,

Well put. You must remember however that suicide is common in developed countries.

kevin,

I'd like to say that controlling ones emotions (psychology) is possible, I believe I've achieved it.

Infernity,

I've also concidered you're natural order theory. I've come to no conclusion however.

[kevin]

jaguar,

Good for you that you have achieved some semblance of rationality and made peace with your amygdala. Without a doubt there are individuals who can control not only their emotional state but their physical one by thought alone. This is not an ability that at least I will attain in the near future. Although I have been through more than a few "growth" experiences which have enabled me to look past initial reactions and wait for reason to coalesce out of the maelstrom of circumstance, I remain heavily influenced by my individual biochemistry and environment and cannot by strength of will choose my emotional state.

I believe that there are more individuals who are susceptible to the whims of their 'gut' than their brain however and that they are the majority.

[prismatic_light]

I would never assume that someone who commits suicide is weak. I do believe that nothing is worth committing suicide for. However, choosing to end your own life is not a sign of weakness, but rather an error of logic. Perhaps not everyone has looked at it as you have, infernity. Perhaps they have never considered all of the consequences of their actions. That does not make them weak or stupid.

[jaguar]

kevin,

I've achieved this thru a life of hardship which required I learn or be completely controlled by my body & subconscious. Perhaps I was predisposed to learning it, though much time and effort was required, years. However, I believe I can now instruct others to learn in a matter of months, so with the proper methods you should be able to earn it in that much time.

Be alone, focus only on your body & mind, begin activating various functions, study them, link them, control them. I found in my practices that game theory played a major role. If I may suggest a method of studying game theory hands on? The video game console PlayStation 2 has a few "tactic" games. They are slow, easy to manipulate, and become complex when trying to refine one's fighting force to an utmost level. Disgaea, LaPucelle Tactics, & Phantom Brave. Where you begin with in them.. is hard to say. Perhaps Disgaea. But if you can get your hands on a copy of "Final Fantasy Tactics" which is for the PlayStation 1, yet PS1 games still work for PS2 as they are compatible, it would be the best place to begin.

The benifits, compared to my previous state of being ruled by the subconscious and various chemicals, are overwhelming. Infact, I now find that it's practice should be taught in public school and would cure many social problems. But I'm probably getting ahead of myself on that.

Learn how. It is worth the time at least fifty fold. Oh and these games are difficult to find due to thier high quality. I believe gamestop.com can get you copies, though they are usually out of stock which will force you to backorder. If that doesn't work try various online sellers, ebay, or the used game sections of your local video game stores. Playstation 2s should cost about 100-150 dollars these days, there is the original version and the "Slim" version, either will work.

[eternaltraveler]

Scandanavia has one of the highest suicide rates in the world. I would say that the developed world as a whole has a far higher suicide rate than the undeveloped world.

When people aren't spending their time fighting for survival they tend to forget that it is a goal worth fighting for.

[kevin]

thanks for the suggestions jaguar, it may be that I will find myself looking for solutions to problems that these techniques might help.

[jaguar]

I recommend it to the utmost.

P.S. Maybe it's just the gamer in me... but those games are pretty fun too. =]

[eternaltraveler]

Suicide can indeed be a sign of weakness. The inablity to withstand one thing or another that life has throws at you. But suicide is not always weakness.

I would never call the person who fights against hopeless odds facing certain death so that their family may live on weak.

Nor would I call those that destroyed the world trade centers killing themselves in the process weak. Insane perhaps. And certainly my enemy. But not weak.

[eternaltraveler]

altering my emotions is something I would rather not do unless it is an unusual circumstance.

It is far better to learn to withstand one's emotions, than it is to turn them off or change them on a whim.

[Kalepha]

Suicide is one of my favorite subjects.

I’ve arrived at the conclusion that, by being an agent and inextricable with Nature, no reasons exist for an agent to deliberately participate in negating itself when the rest of nature is already doing a good job of this. Committing suicide just arbitrarily expedites what the rest of nature is already doing, so it doesn’t make any difference that an agent affirms its persistence in the form of animation or otherwise.

Nature will do what Nature will do. If agents of Nature deny and affirm particular forms, then agents of Nature deny and affirm particular forms. The strongest forces in Nature tend to frame causality, and so it shall be. Animated agents seem to already be showing signs that they can effectively participate in causality, and so it shall be.

Assisting the rest of nature in a suicide requires superfluous reasons, where the Bitch inextricably already has incomprehensibly more. What I would now say to the suicidals: “Show me your reasons and I’ll always show you much better and many more reasons that render all of yours utterly meaningless and pathetic.”

Then I would give them a big hug.

[Lazarus Long]

I found the exception to the rule interesting also Cosmos, China has significantly more female suicides than male and even standouts at almost double the rate of female suicide over any other country in the world.

For those that do not think there are psychocultural components to the self destructive psychoses I suggest a close review of the statistics on that list. While it is too dangerous to draw too many conclusions from the glaring character of the numbers, they are also too apparent to ignore.

I have been too busy of late to weigh in on this thread but I think it is a very important subject, I also think it tends to be more complex than has been addressed so far.

You live in Israel Adi, could you tell us the story of Masada and the Maccabees please or would you rather I just told the story as Josephus relates and connect it to dozens of other historically factual accounts from around the world?

Masada

It would be a glaring mistake to confuse what happened at Masada with say the story of Jim Jones and the Guyana Jonestown mass suicide.
Jonestown mass suicide

I nevertheless think that Adi is correct in suggesting that perhaps there is a kind of selection pressure at work but the nature of that selection pressure is social not just genetic. I also think there is a common theme of apocalyptic perspective, which in the cases of the Judean rebels of the Roman occupation or the numerous example of Native American and African mass suicides that occurred when overwhelmed by the Conquistadors and forced into slavery can be understood as a *legitimate* perspective of the vanquished to deny full victory to a conqueror by denying one's self as slave.

HIstory of Taino People

Cathars and Religious based Medieval Mass Suicide

It is hardly different in principle than any *Pyhrric Strategy* like the one that has forced us all to share a kind of existential disassociation neurosis called *Mutually Assured Destruction* (MAD) and one that still dominants a significant amount of strategic policy, not merely from the remnants of the Cold War but even in situations like the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

Suicide under these kinds of socio-political pressure is less irrational and more as what Adi suggests without intentionally defining it this way; a Social Darwinist pressure that culls the weak.

I have very serious reservations for legitimizing such forces by calling them *natural* and while there may be a real genetic component with respect to neurophysiologically based depression I also think the obvious cultural component implied by the statistics above to be too important to ignore.

Is it mere coincidence that the architect technocratic cultures that sustain to this day a policy of Mutually Assured Destruction are also the seats of the worst suicide rates?

(Under that perspective China belongs on the list too even though its gender related inverse statistic need closer study)

I still consider the basic issue to be one of balancing hope and pain and will return to that soon but until then I will just remind everyone that "misery loves company" )

Recent Mass Suicides

[Infernity]

Kev, I believe you are the closest to understanding. Perhaps I think you convinced me

Infernity,

I've also concidered you're natural order theory. I've come to no conclusion however.

Jaguar,
I meant that suicide is unnecessary since death is a way to get over problems, and that's never the goal itself. So I was thinking that people should think of ways to solve their problems without losing everything.
Commits to suicide has turned to such an obvious way to "solve problems", like once you are depress, you strait away think "I feel like I wanna die!" instead of "I wish that would have never happened"...

However, choosing to end your own life is not a sign of weakness, but rather an error of logic

Hmmm prismatic_light, well such error I may call being stupid ) . Why? because what's being smart? learning from mistakes (and of course successes). So, when you kill yourself, heh you can't learn from it and won't repeat it, and that's a shame.

But I agree that the person could be very smart in other terms, simply did one stupid mistake that because of the inability to learn from it, turns him stupid.
In fact, you could say he is smart, since you can be sure he won't repeat that mistake [lol]. But I'll say, no, "he", does not even exist, so "he" stands on the zero, no smart or stupid- now. Now= consequence of all the past events and the event whom will lead to the next nows (future)...

Jaguar,
When the bleep do you find time to play these games? ( )

Elrond

When people aren't spending their time fighting for survival they tend to forget that it is a goal worth fighting for

Well, that's true.

Suicide can indeed be a sign of weakness. The inability to withstand one thing or another that life has throws at you. But suicide is not always weakness.

I would never call the person who fights against hopeless odds facing certain death so that their family may live on weak.

Nor would I call those that destroyed the world trade centers killing themselves in the process weak. Insane perhaps. And certainly my enemy. But not weak.

Well, first, there is always hope, and secondly, it doesn't matter if you die sorrowfully or not, nor old or young or nor anything else- for as long as you die. Now that what will keep me strong from never suicide- for as long as I am alive, there is hope. Now if I am under pain, and will 'sure' die, I still will not kill myself since I am alive now, and even have nothing to lose, so I'd do lots of things that will affect on the future........... Not like it will make any difference to me, unless I will do things for making sure I will resuscitated.

Now, about enemies. Do you agree with me they are stupid? I mean that their actions have absolutely no balance (the fact they did it), skeptical (about that promised heaven after it), or rationality (...)? http://www.imminst.o...t=ST&f=3&t=5943
And, of course- can't learn from their mistakes, as they didn't get their 70 vergions...
Supposing you agree, I can tell you, my only enemy is boorishness. Of course what seems to me as fatuousness, as some will see me as foolish, I can tell ya these are those I tend to think are foolish.
1 enemy

altering my emotions is something I would rather not do unless it is an unusual circumstance.

It is far better to learn to withstand one's emotions, than it is to turn them off or change them on a whim.

I disagree on you, I believe emotions and feelings are keeping us alive... Every action is according to we think we should do, we ascribe everything for the self best, by self development according to singular experience. Thinking is somewhat feeling... Feeling is definitely related to emotions...

Nate, Nate, Nate [sfty]
You didn't stand the temptation did you?
You said you won't reply my posts till I get older and more stable and become experienced enough in enunciating...
However, I am glad to see you got over it , Missed your posts.

Assisting the rest of nature in a suicide requires superfluous reasons, where the Bitch inextricably already has incomprehensibly more. What I would now say to the suicidal: “Show me your reasons and I’ll always show you much better and many more reasons that render all of yours utterly meaningless and pathetic.”

Then I would give them a big hug.

Umm, wait a second, am I that bitch...?

Ok, I always say 'Sometimes silence is best, not because there is nothing to say, but because some things are too deep for words', I suppose hugging instead of explaining may be a great solution. After they understand they have almost erred but learned, you can explain them the psychology beyond that, So they won't repeat their actions and get led that way too far... in such extent of no turning back.

Cosmos,
I believe that commits to suicide are arbitrary when it comes to gender. I think that it came out random that males so it seems hard more often.
Unless (that's an induction) the females mind are just generally more balanced evolutional/genetically.

Laz,

I found the exception to the rule interesting also Cosmos, China has significantly more female suicides than male and even standouts at almost double the rate of female suicide over any other country in the world.

Oh that answers what I just comment to cosmos, it is random.

You live in Israel Adi, could you tell us the story of Masada and the Maccabees please or would you rather I just told the story as Josephus relates and connect it to dozens of other historically factual accounts from around the world?

I think it would be better if you'd tell it heh. However, a small piece of information:

Masada
("Ruins of Masada"), ancient mountaintop fortress in southeastern Israel, site of the Jews' last stand against the Romans after the fall of Jerusalem in AD 70.

I nevertheless think that Adi is correct in suggesting that perhaps there is a kind of selection pressure at work but the nature of that selection pressure is social not just genetic.

Yes, that's also clears my words above, to cosmos. (random by lifestyles...)

It is hardly different in principle than any *Pyhrric Strategy* like the one that has forced us all to share a kind of existential disassociation neurosis called *Mutually Assured Destruction* (MAD) and one that still dominants a significant amount of strategic policy, not merely from the remnants of the Cold War but even in situations like the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

Suicide under these kinds of socio-political pressure is less irrational and more as what Adi suggests without intentionally defining it this way; a Social Darwinist pressure that culls the weak.

You are correct, yes.
note: Laz, you are a great speaker, I should reconsider letting you edit my ideas before posting a chaotic post

I still consider the basic issue to be one of balancing hope and pain and will return to that soon but until then I will just remind everyone that "misery loves company"

Hmmm, you gave me an inspiration to a new song with the "misery loves company" thing .

Cosmos,
Thanks for the link.

Yours truthfully
~Infernity

[Kalepha]

*infernity* You said you won't reply my posts till I get older and more stable and become experienced enough in enunciating...

Well, you seem to be dead wrong only about altruism being either not possible or a mistake. Otherwise, you seem to get it in general, amazingly. So I can tolerate the chaotic disorganization of your posts.

*infernity*

*Nate* Assisting the rest of nature in a suicide requires superfluous reasons, where the Bitch inextricably…

Umm, wait a second, am I that bitch...?

No – of course not. In English, “Nature,” with a capital N, is arbitrarily associated with femininity. Hence “Bitch” with a capital B.

*infernity*

*Nate* … already has incomprehensibly more. What I would now say to the suicidal: “Show me your reasons and I’ll always show you much better and many more reasons that render all of yours utterly meaningless and pathetic.”

Ok, I always say 'Sometimes silence is best, not because there is nothing to say, but because some things are too deep for words', I suppose hugging instead of explaining may be a great solution. After they understand they have almost erred but learned, you can explain them the psychology beyond that, So they won't repeat their actions and get led that way too far... in such extent of no turning back.

I think both explanation and physical solace combined would be the most effective. Unless the person has a neurological defect, about to be physically tortured or killed anyway, or is committing suicide for others, then the person is most likely preoccupied with psychological superficialities.

Psychological distress that causes suicidal tendencies in a subject tends to be due to a miscellany of disorganized and improbable beliefs. Being possessed by a miscellany of disorganized and improbable beliefs implies that the subject likely doesn’t know that he or she is unnecessarily preoccupied with psychological superficialities if all this mental chaos develops into a suicidal attitude. Attitude is a function of belief system. If a belief system is not even recognized as a belief system, and all its components aren’t harmonized, attitudes may approach the suicidal threshold.

[justinb]

I have found that of the majority of people who attempt suicde: they are female, ugly and stupid.

A majority of people who have attempted suicide are stupid while a very small margin are extremely intelligent compared to the mean, (I.Q.s circa 140). Now, I am talking from anecdotal experiance, but... it seems to be true at least. About 60 to 70% of the teenagers that attempt suicide are females. What is interesting is; females attempt suicide for social reasons: they don't have friends (to women this is paramount), very poor self image (which is unfortunately true a lot of the time, their physical appearance being poor that is) or negative experiances with men and sex. A lot of have been molested or otherwised used sexually when they were young.... by men of course... some even have had STDs when they are only 14 or 15 years old. Men, on the other have different problems. The less intelligent deal with sexual problems (basically, didn't get laid yet [huh]) or aggressive issues (gets into fights very easily) while the more intelligent have issues with their parents and their own academic performance (for shits and giggles, most intelligent male teenagers haven't been laid either). This might be an over simplification, but it is true for the most part, in my opinion. Now, for the older (20s and higher) or physically disabled ... the reasons vary.

[Lazarus Long]

Justin did you bother to read the statistics that Cosmos linked to?

You might be surprised to discover that most of what you describe as anecdotal experience is what can be better described as biased stereotypes and false as well.

Not that you are wrong about some of the causes of suicide but that these causal factors are by no means at the top of the list, starting right off the bat with the issue of gender.

I have an argument for why the oldest group has the highest incidence of suicide but the issue of intelligence is not valid at all, certainly not with respect to female suicide.

[justinb]

Justin did you bother to read the statistics that Cosmos linked to?

I read the fact sheet. What it doesn't mention is that the majority of attempted suicides are done by people who have attempted it more then once. That is to say, suicidal people tend to attempt suicide more then once. I am refering to the teenage population and young adults (people in their 20s and early 30s), not people that are 60,.

I have an argument for why the oldest group has the highest incidence of suicide but the issue of intelligence is not valid at all, certainly not with respect to female suicide.

I believe it is very valid. Women that are intelligent can cope with many of the problems that are presented to them. Intelligent women understand men's social interest in them (I know I am being cynical, but I believe completely honest), so they don't allow themselves to be used by men. Don't get me wrong, probably only about 90% of men are misogynists. Intelligent people know how to socialize better then others (this doesn't mean they will of course), become much more independent and grow as individuals. Unintelligent women are stuck in their shitty stereotypical roles that are forced upon them by society; basically to serve men. Trust me in this, I hate that stereotype that women are confronted with, but it is none-the-less predominant in our society and we most not ignore it and label it just sexist rhetoric. Perhaps psychologists are too stupid to indentify individual differences, they pigeon-hole the sexes. Women are sexual victims who, if they are socially isolated, attempt suicide... while men are abused by their alcoholic fathers and become aggressive towards eachother and sexually abuse women. These stereotypes are true in general (they are stereotypes of course), but only because we allow them to be such.

If I am talking out of my ass, then please tell me so. I think I am correct in my reductionistic approach here.

Not that you are wrong about some of the causes of suicide but that these causal factors are by no means at the top of the list, starting right off the bat with the issue of gender.

I am not saying that women are less intelligent the men, I am saying that suicidal women are less intelligent in general. Most of the suicidal women I have come accross are ugly, stupid, socially isolated, have been sexuall abused, etc, etc.

Regardless, I seek a greater understanding of suicide and depression in humans.

I do too, but for now the above simple generizations our my views. I believe that 99% of suicidal people are ones who cannot cope with society as a whole. What is interesting is how these maladaptive individuals evolved. Is it organic or psychological in nature? Many people that are extremely suicidal seem to have some sort of chemical inbalance or genetic disorder, or both. But, the environments that everyone grows up in should also be looked at and improved, irregardless if serial attempts are organic in nature or not.

Edited by justinb, 11 April 2005 - 08:58 PM.

[Kalepha]

In reference to cosmos’ references, all this business about hopelessness and mental “disorders” ignores that there are personal reasons (the components of conclusions/beliefs) that underlie these psychological states. These states don’t just manifest without personal reasons unless the states truly arise from neurological abnormalities.

A person can have perfectly organized and coherent personal reasons to choose being antisocial or moody. This person most certainly doesn’t have a disorder. Unless there are compelling neurological problems (or other extraneous circumstances, as mentioned), the person who has disharmonious personal reasons to be antisocial or moody also doesn’t have a disorder – the person needs assistance in evaluating his or her belief system.

For “experts” to blur the distinction between the neurological and psychological is part of the overall problem. It’s an unfortunate effect of political correctness. No one wants to admit that genuine nonrationality is to blame. Of course developing countries don’t have these problems! The people there don’t have to juggle innumerable social signals of cultural dynamics that derive from an incomprehensible range of arbitrary values and judgments.