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Sodium Thiosulfate


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#1 Ames

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 07:08 PM


So, I had some previously unconsumed pure sodium thiosulfate crystals on hand that I had sourced from ebay. I have so many supplements in supply, many of them that I have never tried (I usually get around to them), that it is not unusual that I forget why I purchased something. There is usually a good reason for purchase that I can again discover, and in this case I vaguely remembered that sodium thiosulfate was a dechlorinator, that it is used in cyanide detoxification, and that it was a strong reducing agent. I believe that I was delaying further experimentation until I was able to do more research on it, and was sure of its safety. Although, its limited medical uses point to a relatively safe profile, and positive therapeutic action, at specific dilutions. Perhaps I was initially hesitant because of the note on the bag that stated that one pound of it can dechlorinate 25,000 gallons of water.

My first clue should have been several months ago, when one morning I happened to just handle the bag in which it came (I store everything in my bedroom), and I immediately fell asleep again for several hours. The link to my handling of the bag and the strange sleep episode was fairly obvious (it was noticeable that dust that was kicked up out of the bag when it was handled). While I did make the link to the probable cause of the induced sleep episode, I didn't pay any more attention to the substance for a few more months. However, I was aware of the extremely diminutive amount of dust that I must have inhaled and its subsequent pronounced effect.

Cut to yesterday morning: I wake up with a severe ocular migraine. The pain radiated through my prefrontal cortex. This is after I had been taking the CILTEP stack for about 1.5 weeks that initially helped my eye issues greatly, but whose beneficial action seemed to be fragile once I started experimenting with other things with it, such as GABA to occasionally reduce the perceived catecholamine buildup. For my issues, it also works better without a catecholamine precursor, and it seems to help if I skip days-whereas initially the effects grew stronger with daily dosing.

Anyway, I began to go through the variety of supplements that usually knock my migraines out (aborting them is more difficult than preventing them). First, lithium orotate, which generally is extremely effective, had no effect. Then 650 mg of aspirin and caffeine pills. No effect. Then, a milk thistle cap to protect the liver from my continued onslaught. I also took a Forskolin and an artichoke cap, which in hindsight was a bad idea. After none of this had an effect, I was getting desperate (other things can help, but if lithium doesn't do it, then I have little hope for most other solutions). I took both a cold and hot shower, which helped some, and went back to my bedroom. I then remembered the notable effect that handling the bag of sodium thiosulfate had. Anything that puts me back to sleep can generally be thought of as having the desired effect on my migraines. So, I dipped my finger in the bag, and a few very fine particles of sodium thiosulfate stuck to it. If the total weight were 1 mg, then I would be surprised. It was probably .20-.50 mg. I licked it off of my finger and laid down.

Sure enough, I dropped off to sleep, almost immediately, for 2-3 hours. This is what I expected, although I actually thought that I would sleep more. I got up, and plod through my day (of studying no less) feeling all day like I usually do after I abort a migraine: like I just got repeatedly punched in the brain. Although, given the prior extreme intensity of the migraine, I could have felt much worse.

Here's where it gets strange: in-line with my penchant for self abuse, I stayed up until 4 am. Usually, this would necessitate 9-10 hours of sleep to overcome, especially given the previous morning's migraine and my masochistic indulgence of heavy computer use, the primary migraine trigger (although few are as severe as the one of the previous morning). My first clue is that I had a little trouble falling asleep. Usually, going to bed at this time in the morning, I drop right off into at least 6 hours of deep slumber. However, 30 minutes or so of continued awareness was this time noted. Strange. Well, I finally drifted off, only to awake at 6:15 am fully alert. I felt like I had a full nights sleep. It felt like I had an extremely powerful anti-oxidant coursing through my system. I could breath and stretch a little easier, and I had no trace of fatigue. Although I had anti-oxidant experiences that cut down on sleep necessity, never before have they made it so that only 1.5 hours of sleep was necessary. Especially after such a morning and day that I previously had. The effect was so pronounced that it freaked me out a little, and I started getting paranoid about the safety profile of the dose that I ingested in such haste the morning before. My eyes felt great, more clear, and could very noticeable focus faster than they usually can. Because of my eye issues, I'm always doing small self-tests of ocular function. In the morning, I often press my face into my pillow, and then lift it up to notice how long it takes for my eyes to focus on objects at various distances. Usually both eyes are pretty slow (10-15 seconds, my right eye being especially slow), but this time they both focused immediately. Even more notably, the difference in night vision between my two eyes was reduced so as to be imperceivable when walking down my dark hallway. Usually, especially after using the computer until the early morning, my right eye would be considerably worse than my left: to the point where I feel almost night-blind in my right eye as it is contrasted with the vision in my left. If I don't stress my eyes with hours of intense fluorescent light exposure, this difference tends to diminish. However, this morning it was hardly there when it should have been a vast difference.

The clarity was so great however, that my state continued to worry me a bit and, further, I knew that trying to tackle the day on 1.5 hours of sleep was a bad idea, especially given that I have a test to take today. So, I read until I grew tired and eventually did fall back to sleep for about 3.5 hours. And, here I am a few hours later, still feeling pretty good, and wondering if and how I can harness this substance for, perhaps, intermittent therapeutic use. The safety must be first assured. If it can be, I recommend that everyone give it a go. The effects are fairly amazing in their potency. Although, it's difficult to guess at what the felt effects will be for those with physiologic states that are different from my own.

I anyone does try it, please be extremely, extremely careful with the dose. This is potent stuff, and I the very few people that I found on the internet, that claim to have been taking it therapeutically, most often do dilute it first to around a 10% solution of which they take a few drops; they don't stick their finger in it like I did. Even at the sub-milligram dose that I took, I felt as if I probably overdid it. That being said, desired felt potency can also be a personal preference as long as it is within the safe dose range.

Edited by golgi1, 02 November 2012 - 07:46 PM.


#2 Ames

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 07:06 PM

3 days later, I was still feeling the residual positive effects. Good quality sleep and no ocular migraines no matter how hard I tried to trigger them. Several 4 am nights up on the computer. Mood and energy had been markedly increased, as was libido. In the many years that I've been looking for solutions for myself, I've had several things increase libido. However, nothing has improved mood and energy in the manner that this has. The effect is actually subtle, but what is remarkable is the quality of energy as well as its persistence. Does it make sense that a more subtle but more persistent mood brightening effect be deemed higher quality? It was more natural. There is no rush nor mania, just a persistent yet subtle feeling of better well being.

Now here's something else that is very strange, so much that I'm a little reluctant to admit it. However, in the interest of the spirit of this forum, here it is:

I managed to create a false memory of what I actually took. I'm not sure if this is the first time that this has happened or the first time that I caught it. If you can understand, I was in neuro/ocular-inflammatory hell when I was rifling through my supplements. That alone likely could explain the false memory. I had also been taking various things in a short time frame, raising my head to do so out of a pain filled stupor (uridine being another that I had forgotten about until now). The memory that I created was that I had stuck my finger in the bag of sodium thiosulfate and took a finger-pressed sample. Cut to today:

After my third day of 4 am nights (4-5 days total) after the aforementioned episode, I finally awoke feeling tired and with the slightest of eye discomfort (slight for me may well be an emergency for someone else - I'm not quite sure where my relative pain tolerances lie at this point). I had been waiting to re-dose with the sodium thiosulfate, as I wanted to observe how many days I would feel the effects of the initial dose. Today, I awoke and my perceived fatigue and discomfort was enough to warrant another dose.

I picked up the bag of sodium thiosulfate, and it was sealed. Not re-sealed, but sealed. As in heat-sealed plastic. I looked for an opening in which I could have stuck my finger, and there was none. Instead of the .5 mg that I had remembered taking, I apparently, in my pain filled haze, just wiped the outside of the bag with my finger and licked it. Now, I'm conservative in my experimentation, but this level of caution surprised even me. There is a very slight amount of dust that tends to come through the bag, likely at very slight seam failures in the bag, but it isn't really enough that you can even see if you wipe your finger on it. You can barely see it on the bag with close inspection. I had probably had figured that if handling the bag was before enough to have an effect, then tracing the outside of it and licking my finger should have a significant effect.

So, today, I repeated that procedure. I traced the outside of the bag and licked my finger. My eye discomfort immediately subsided and I fell asleep for two hours. My dreams were noticeably vivid, and I remembered them all. Three hours later, I'm here writing this. Later today, I'm going to open the bag and put the Na thiosulfate in a sandwich bag so I can experiment with higher doses over the next few weeks. However, the previous method of dosing has been both surprising and instructive.

At this point, no one has taken interest in my anecdote and I'm okay with that. This is here for reference, should anyone take interest in the future. However, I would appreciate some feedback as to any possible or existing dangers or precautions that should be taken with sodium thiosulfate, you know, absent that it was bought on ebay (99%+ purity) :)

Edited by golgi1, 05 November 2012 - 07:41 PM.

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#3 Ames

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 07:02 PM

So, I upped the dose by licking a crystal briefly (this is an assumed higher dose) on a couple of occasions (I've taken this a total of four times), and the response is subjectively slower and less positive, although the response remains strong, prolonged (measured in days), and positive overall. Although my opinion may change in the future, for now I can only conclude that the response curve peaks at a very low dose. I don't recommend crystal licking unless you have no other choice. The first time I did that, I may have realized some negative effects, although I still hold that the cumulative effect was positive. My advice is to dilute this stuff a great deal. If people can take this at such low doses, for a positive effect, then I believe that doing so may be a boon for people looking for a boost in vascular stress resistance (subjective to my experience), a nice reduction in ADD symptoms (the only thing for me that has touched this - though I've never taken Aderrall nor Vyvanse), and a general but subtle boost in optimism and well-being. This is definitely the strongest supplement/noot I've taken (subjective), though I've yet to try the more advanced/expensive stuff like noopept or injectables. If you try it, I recommend that you dilute it a great deal and start with a very low dose. Even a few visible crumbs of this stuff might be too much to ingest, without inducing unwanted negative side effects. It's hard to qualify the negative effects other that I just didn't feel right, but don't minimize the possibility of such effects due to my inability to constructively elaborate. At higher doses (crystal licking), I did notice that while my energy was improved, my sleep rhythm was sometimes thrown off and I would awake prematurely and then be tired on some days. At lower doses, I awoke feeling completely refreshed. I've been waiting an average of, perhaps, 4 days in-between each dose.

Edited by golgi1, 15 November 2012 - 07:12 PM.


#4 Hip

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 05:50 AM

Your experiments are fascinating, golgi1, and I await your further tests with interest.

But could you kindly be more precise and scientific in your dose measurements.

You can buy a digital weighing scales that measure down to an amazing1 mg (0.001 grams) on eBay for just 10 to 20 USD (See here). I have one of these scales, and they are excellent.

I'd like to repeat some of your experiments with sodium thiosulfate, but would like to know the precise dosage your were taking.

Why not dissolve a known quantity of sodium thiosulfate into a volume of water, and then measure your dose by taking drops of this water from a dropper pipette.

One drop of water is around 1/25 th of a ml in volume. So if you dissolve x grams of sodium thiosulfate into water, say a total volume of 30 ml, then each drop of that water will contain x / 750 grams of sodium thiosulfate.


Also, try to find out the safe dose of sodium thiosulfate online.

Edited by Hip, 20 November 2012 - 05:52 AM.


#5 adamh

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 11:58 PM

I find this very interesting mostly for the aspect of inducing sleep. I'm a hard core insomniac who has been gradually forced into stronger and stronger medicines, now on benzos 3 x per week and other combinations the other days. If something like this worked even one day a week it would be great. 2 or 3 days a week would be super and of course if it fixed the sleep problems then it would be too good to be true but one can hope.

When i hear of unusual things like this i always google it and sometimes find that the poster was apparently the only one on the planet who reacts that way. But in this case it is known to help with sleep sometimes. Its kind of a niche remedy and is usually used for chelation, removing chlorine, cyanide poisoning and a few other things. But i've read many anecdotes saying it works for sleep. The plural of anecdote is data, isn't it? :) At any rate, for a few bucks i can give it a try and i have some on order.

Its cheap and non toxic, they talk about doses of several grams given iv for poisoning cases so a few mg orally should be nothing as far as toxicity. Even if it doesn't put me to sleep in the dramatic way the OP told us about, any help is greatly appreciated. I've already noticed grogginess from benzo hangover and i take like only 1 to 2 mg at a time. If this stuff would allow me to cut the dose in half and get the same or better results, that would well be worth it. Anything would be nice. I'm setting my sights low and hoping to be pleasantly surprised.

#6 dear mrclock

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 04:01 AM

adamh, can you try it and report back please. interesting thread...

#7 Ames

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 04:20 AM

Ok, I apologize for the delay in continuing the thread. I've been bogged down with exams, and I wanted to get a better perspective on the sodium thiosulfate.

I dissolved one crystal (all crystals being roughly uniform in size) in one liter of filtered tap water. Keep in mind that this was chlorinated tap water, and the chlorine was then completely neutralized by the sodium thiosulfate. I then filled a 4 oz dropper bottle with the solution.

I was looking for effects similar to my first less structured dosing with the sodium thiosulfate, which were significant, but with no negative side effects - no matter how slight. I found this with my first dosing regimen with the new solution.

What I found works for me and my symptoms is three drops of this 1 crystal to 1 liter water solution, 1-2 times per week. Most often, I've been redosing on the second day after the first dose. When I do this (2 three drop doses separated by one day) I get all positive benefits that seem to last at least a week before I feel like a booster dose could be beneficial. Keep in mind that I am looking for increased resistance to vascular stress and pressure, primarily in my brain and eyes. My most pressing symptoms are ocular migraines, migraines, intraocular eye pressure, a reduced libido, ADD, and cardiac symptoms. These symptoms all cascade from my primary migraine trigger, which is flourescent light from computer screens and overhead lights. I'm roughly 12 years into being affected by this.

Dosing with the above regimen, I have minimal discomfort from my trigger, and if I am overexposed, I wake up feeling great the next day - which was before an impossibility. Even if I had no migraine / ocular stress, I still felt very off and a victim to a disease state (if anyone of you has a chronic inflammatory neurological condition, you may be able to empathize). With this, I feel like a normal person upon rising. The sodium thiosulfate in my system seems to neutralize all free radical stress while I sleep, days after I have last taken these minimal doses.

A funny thing about the sodium thiosulfate is that it seems to work better the longer that one takes it. This may be just my subjective experience, but I feel a cumulative lessening of some aspects of the neurological disease state as I continue to take this, made obvious by a seeming increasing resistance to stress from my trigger with each new dose. Libido is increased, ADD is decreased, and sleep is, well, different.

Generally, I feel an enhancement in sleep. This continues to be the case. However, I will warn that there seems to be an effect where, sometimes, given just the right amount of dysregulated sleep schedule or self-abuse, this regimen can lead to your awaking a little prematurely from sleep, even though your system could use more. While not often, there have been a couple of days that I realized that I had awoken too early. However, I think this is to be expected from experimentation with such a strong anti-oxidant, and this was only after I had thrown my schedule or system off through factors other than the sodium thiosulfate (staying up to 4-5 am, etc). If you desperately need sleep but can't get it because of a clinical or sub-clinical neuroinflammatory state (likely), then this will probably put you to sleep when you dose. However, once your inflammaotry processes are somewhat under control, it has the potential to have the above described effect, in my experience.

In all, this is the strongest subjectively beneficial substance that I've taken, with the most lasting subjective effects. Keep in mind, that I cannot speak to higher doses that what I have taken, although, as I before stated, I have good experiential reasons to infer that, with sodium thiosulfate, a very low dose is both adequate and optimal.

Be ready to wait for the full effects to kick in over the course of a few days. The effects evolve, and as before stated, seem to accumulate. They will likely be most noticeable if you have an inflammatory issue, and less noticeable if you are looking for the 'let's get tweaked on noots' effect. While I do notice enhancement in some areas, as I before alluded to, I believe that the likely most beneficial effect of sodium thiosulfate is in the reduction of certain maladaptive physical states.

Remember, up to a threshold,inflammation has a certain crucial benefit to the system. This is a highly potent anti-oxidant. Be aware that the science of ani-oxidant supplementation isn't as evolved as it likely should be, and that you likely want to strike a balance with an anti-oxidant such as this. Hence, my conservative regimen.

I'll be interested to see if this stuff can be cleared by the good people on the longecity forum for any potential negative effects on biological aging process, such as in regard to telomere issues. I haven't had a chance to research toward this end, but I'll start to do so now that the semester has ended. However, my research skills, while arguably adequate (I've taken one class in research), are not up to par with some of the better trained people on this forum. So, assitance would be much appreciated.

Edited by golgi1, 18 December 2012 - 04:39 AM.


#8 Hip

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 04:38 AM

Hi golgi1

What is the approximate size of the crystals you mentioned?

Are we talking about sugar grain sized crystal (ie, about 0.5 mm across), or a bit larger than that (say 1 or 2 mm across), or larger still (4 or 5 mm across), or even larger?

#9 Ames

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 04:56 AM

Posted Image


a dime (USA) is apparently 18 mm in diameter. That would make a crystal close to 7X3.5 mm.

Edited by golgi1, 18 December 2012 - 05:49 AM.


#10 adamh

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 11:50 PM

I made a 5% solution dissolving 3 gm of crystals into 2 oz water. One drop seemed to do nothing. On another day, 4 drops seemed to possibly help a little. On another day, 10 drops seemed to help. I will try it again tonight, probably 10 or 12 drops with my usual sleep aid and see how it works.

#11 Hip

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 12:44 AM

a dime (USA) is apparently 18 mm in diameter. That would make a crystal close to 7 X 3.5 mm.


Thanks golgi.

So given that the density of sodium thiosulfate is 1.67 g/cm³ (I just looked it up on Google), that would make the weight of each of your crystals around:

0.7 X 0.35 X 0.35 X 1.67 = 0.14 grams = 140 mg.

And you say you are dissolving one of these crystals into 1 liter of water. Now there are 1,000 ml in a liter, and 1 ml contains 25 drops (very roughly — it depends on the dropper), so that means:

Each of your drops of solution contains: 140 / 25,000 = 0.0056 mg

= 5.6 mcg of sodium thiosulfate.

#12 Hip

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 12:52 AM

I made a 5% solution dissolving 3 gm of crystals into 2 oz water. One drop seemed to do nothing. On another day, 4 drops seemed to possibly help a little. On another day, 10 drops seemed to help. I will try it again tonight, probably 10 or 12 drops with my usual sleep aid and see how it works.


In your case, adamh, you are dissolving 3 grams of sodium thiosulfate into 2 oz (= 59 ml) of water, so assuming there are 25 drops per 1 ml:

Each of your drops of solution contains: 3 / (25 X 59) = 0.002 grams

= 2 mg of sodium thiosulfate.

So adamh you are using a solution with drops that are around 360 times more potent that golgi's drops. This is a huge difference.

Edited by Hip, 19 December 2012 - 12:53 AM.


#13 niner

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 01:17 AM

Each of your drops of solution contains: 140 / 25,000 = 0.0056 mg

= 5.6 mcg of sodium thiosulfate.


I smell placebo effect...

#14 Ames

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 04:41 AM

Each of your drops of solution contains: 140 / 25,000 = 0.0056 mg

= 5.6 mcg of sodium thiosulfate.


Thanks for the calculation niner. That's very useful.

I smell placebo effect...


Okay, go and take 5.6 mcg of LSD and then come back and tell me that your completely relative sense of a dose response curve has any meaning when randomly applied.

On the sodium thiosulfate bag, it is stated that one pound of sodium thiosulfate is recommended to dechlorinate 25,000 gallons of water. Do you still think that a larger dose is either responsible or necessary, especially when starting out?

You can smell placebo all you'd like, but I'm well familiar with the difference between an actual effect and placebo. I've been dealing with systemic inflammation, mostly neurological, for twelve years. Until you do the same, you have no idea. My particular issues aren't this dramatically rectified by placebo, especially up to a week after I've taken the dose and forgotten about it.

As for adamh, who was taking a higher dose, I before explained what you should expect. The fact that you tell me that you feel nothing tells me that you weren't really paying attention to what I was painstakingly trying to communciate about the nature of this stuff, or your issues aren't those that this is best suited for. I had another forum member PM me about his experience in November. He related that he was taking 20 drops of a high concentration up to three times a day every day. He had a small effect that he perceived petered out after a while. I explained to him that the dose was likely too large but, more importantly, that the dose frequency was both too much and unnecessary. My experience with anything that I've ever taken is that the body generally adapts to it after a while unless it is cycled, and high dose (completely relative) high frequency administration speeds up that adaptation process. The more valuable something is to me and my symptoms, the more careful that I want to be with administering the optimal dose and optimal frequency, so that it keeps working. Now, I think that sodium thiosulfate's inate potency bodes well for its continued effectiveness when judiciously administered (arguably in small amounts), but you have to be slow and conservative when experimenting with supplements that may offer a lot of benefit (as proven through sodium thiosulfate's accepted medical applications), especially when they are as potent as sodium thiolsulfate. While I don't have experience with doses as large as adamh does, the experience related to me through the other forum members PM raises the possibility that a lesser effect could be realized with a higher dose when taking it for prophylaxis, or the effect could be limited. When I took a slightly higher dose, I noticed that the positive effect was slower in coming on, and had negative effects, such as light-headedness, along with it. That experience caused me to zero in on a much lower optimum dose.

There are a certain contingent of people here, and everywhere, that will never believe that a small dose of something could have the best clinical effect. They will not be able to get over the fact that more does not always equal more, and that dose is very specific to a particular chemical or supplement. They will not have the patience to experiment with slightly varying doses over the period of weeks, or with infrequent doses while abstaining from other supplementation. Thes people may even be the majority. I insist on doing things my way, and am most often reqwarded for my conservative style. My reward is that the sometimes high intensity negative effects of new substances are minimized (anyone want my L-Carnosine? my worst experience), I often discover substances that are very effective at smaller doses but have a negative or lesser positive effect at a larger 'normal' dose, and my life is no longer hindered by my condition, as it was for a full decade. I have full control of this condition through a cycle of roughly four different substances that I can take to temporarily improve my resistance or to mitigate vascular/occular stress. However, since starting low dose sodium thiosulfate about six weeks ago, at three drops two days out of roughly every 7 to 10, I haven't had the need to use anything else. Will it always be like this? I have no idea. It's never happened before where something didn't stop working or didn't eventually present a side effect that needed to be mitigated. However, so far, sticking to my regimen, it is working better than anything else I have ever tried. This is no placebo, both for the reasons that I before described and becasue it would make no sense that sodium thiosulfate just happened to be the random substance, out of hudreds tried, that offered such a dramatic placebo effect.

In conclusion, I before tried to communicate that I don't expect this to work for everyone, nor for most people. I expect it to work for the people whom need it the most (inflammation, calcium deposits, perhaps cardiac issues, decreased vascular stress resistance, migraines, etc.). Otherwise, the effects likely will be unnoticed or perhaps misattributed to other things. The delayed response and buildup time of the effects (although, I get almost immediate inflammatory relief when that is an issue) lends itself to forgetting that you even took something. Therefore, when you get the boost in a couple of days, if you are prone to realizing one due to issues (the best boost is generally after the second dose taken on the third day), I think it is easy to just attribute it to feeling good. I have major problems, and sometimes I even temporarily forget why I am feeling better. This can cause problems with remembering to redose, but I always do when symptoms start creeping back.

Anyway, I was just posting this thread to help. If it helps one person, then it was worthwhile. It, perhaps, won't do a thing for most. As I before stated, that is especially true for those that have misdirected expectations of it. Cheers.

Edited by golgi1, 19 December 2012 - 05:06 AM.


#15 Hip

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 05:33 AM

This study used sodium thiosulfate in the treatment of juvenile dermatomyositis, which is an inflammatory condition, so this is an anti-inflammatory use of sodium thiosulfate:

Abatacept and sodium thiosulfate for treatment of recalcitrant juvenile dermatomyositis complicated by ulceration and calcinosis

Unfortunately the study abstract does not mention the dosage of sodium thiosulfate used — but if anyone has academic institutional access to the full article, it would be interesting to get this dosage information.

(By the way, Golgi, you incorrectly interchanged the quotes of "Niner" and "Hip" in your last comment above.)

#16 Hip

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 05:39 AM

Golgi, very interesting that you have neurological inflammation. This is the symptom I have, which makes your experiments with sodium thiosulfate for treating inflammation all the more interesting.

My brain inflammation was caused by a virus I caught (through kissing someone) some years ago. The viral infection would not go away, as has been causing inflammation ever since. Brain inflammation has been linked to precipitating anxiety disorders, depression, and several other mental conditions.

#17 adamh

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 09:15 PM

I tried it again last night and the results are inconclusive. It seemed to help a little but the effects are within the range of a possible placebo. I can't rule out that it helps a bit. I only use it a few times a week because of what the op said about the body adapting to anything you give it. I already knew that. Even things that work great for sleep fizzle out if you take them every day, usually.

I will keep trying it since i have nothing to lose. Its supposed to be a chelator, whether thats a good thing or not depends. I hear these nutty sounding arguments that chelators will take mercury out of your teeth and put it into your brain if you don't get up in the middle of the night to take a dose. If it helps with inflamation in general then it seems it might be a good thing since chronic inflamation has been linked to many diseases.

Has anyone else tried it? It is dirt cheap and no reported toxicity.

#18 niner

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 10:05 PM

Okay, go and take 5.6 mcg of LSD and then come back and tell me that your completely relative sense of a dose response curve has any meaning when randomly applied.

On the sodium thiosulfate bag, it is stated that one pound of sodium thiosulfate is recommended to dechlorinate 25,000 gallons of water. Do you still think that a larger dose is either responsible or necessary, especially when starting out?

You can smell placebo all you'd like, but I'm well familiar with the difference between an actual effect and placebo. I've been dealing with systemic inflammation, mostly neurological, for twelve years. Until you do the same, you have no idea. My particular issues aren't this dramatically rectified by placebo, especially up to a week after I've taken the dose and forgotten about it.


As Hip mentioned, you got the attributions mixed up, so you should be thanking Hip and flaming me. Sodium thiosulfate is hardly LSD, but I take your point. The concentration of chlorine in water is ~0.2 to 1.0 mg/kg, so it doesn't take much thiosulfate to reduce it, since there is so little of it there. (there would be 20-100grams of chlorine in the entire 25000 gallons.) That doesn't mean that sodium thiosulfate has a profound biological activity. Usually, inorganic compounds like thiosulfate are not very biologically potent. Inflammation has been reported as a side effect of sodium thiosulfate use, though that is certainly at a higher dose than you're using. I'm sorry that you're suffering from this condition, and glad that you've found something that helps.

#19 Hip

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 12:28 AM

One thing to point out is that golgi and adamh are using sodium thiosulfate for different purposes: golgi is using it for its anti-inflammatory benefits, in the context of brain inflammation, and adamh is using sodium thiosulfate for its ability to induce sleep.

#20 Ames

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 02:33 AM

@Niner and Hip
Sorry about the post attribution mix up. That happened while editing a nested quote in the reply box. There was no offense intended, and thanks for catching that. Hip, thanks for the calculation. It's very useful.

@Niner
Anyway, I have no desire to flame anyone. We're all friends here, and I understand a bit of incredulousness. However, I guess that I also needed to clarify my perspective in response to a dismissal via placebo effect. That's all. Thanks for your empathy in your last post.

In terms of it having profound biological activity, that it's use to treat both calciphylaxis and cynaide poisoning speaks well for it being categorized as biologically effective. The relative degree of profoundness, I suppose, is open to interpretation and subject to further high-level experimental evidence. To me, it seems as if there might be a dearth of research on this substance, when contrasted with its possible potential. I predict that they will prove more uses for it in the future, and there are one or two studies being planned or carried out now toward that end. In the future, I predict that they will find that it has effects on glutamate excitotoxicity, at the very least, which might correlate well with it's effects on calcium. I'd be interested in viewing results that address sodium thiosulfate's effects on both glutamate and calcium signalling in the brain.

@adamh
At first, the sodium thiosulfate would induce sleep when needed. Now, it has less of an immediate sedative effect, but my sleep quality, I feel, is still enhanced in relation to my previous sleep quality when I'd go to sleep after inducing inflammation. For me, the effects are currently holding, overall. I wouldn't depend on this for an immediate sedative (although, possible in my experience), especially in the absence of inflammation. My sense is that if you have a severe dysregulation or relevant health condition, then this can provide an enhancement toward normal. If you don't have such a condition, then it likely won't have such a noticeable effect. My system is so used to a high baseline level of inflammation, that I think it responds strongly to a substance that, in my usbjective experience, strongly relieves that state. From this perspective, my response is largely due to a contrast in resting states. It would be roughly equivelant to resting after holding a weight above your head for 18 hours per day. Hence, a strong response when my body is finally allowed to rest through the introduction of an apparently strong reducing substance. This is why I emphasize the possibility that your results, with such a substance, probably have much to do with your baseline state or persistent issues.

Edited by golgi1, 20 December 2012 - 02:41 AM.


#21 adamh

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 10:43 PM

Golgi1, with all due respect, your reports sound very much like placebo effect. At first it seems to work, then less and less. If you get a boost in belief such as being told it will help with inflamation that you may have, the effect seems to come back but then gradually fades away. We have all experienced this with various things. They say half the benefit of a doctor's treatment is in the belief of the patient. There may be some benefit to it but i'm not very motivated to try it any more. I may force myself to try it again since i have some mixed up. 7 mcg of lsd won't do anything for you. I think threshold effects are around 20 mcg.
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#22 Ames

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Posted 25 December 2012 - 06:05 AM

Golgi1, with all due respect, your reports sound very much like placebo effect. At first it seems to work, then less and less. If you get a boost in belief such as being told it will help with inflamation that you may have, the effect seems to come back but then gradually fades away. We have all experienced this with various things. They say half the benefit of a doctor's treatment is in the belief of the patient. There may be some benefit to it but i'm not very motivated to try it any more. I may force myself to try it again since i have some mixed up. 7 mcg of lsd won't do anything for you. I think threshold effects are around 20 mcg.


With all due respect, you don't really know what you are talking about. My "reports". What "reports"? My sodium thiosulfate report? Sodium thiolsulfate continues to work for me. The other substances that I alluded to? I'll reiterate: you don't know what you are talking about. First of all, a substance that works at first and has less and less effect is not the definition of placebo effect, and if it were interpreted as such, it would not be the only category for that pattern of effect. Plenty, and I mean plenty, of initially effective substances are known to have decreasing effects over time. Inflammation is highly intermingled with hormonal cascades, and almost everything that interacts with hormonal mechanisms of the body will have varied effects over time due to hormone/neurohormone production, receptor or synapse adaptation. Hormones themselves decrease in effect over time, as do painkillers, as do antibiotics, as do many anti-inflammatories, as do many other pharmaceuticals. Neither the lithium orotate, the forskolin, the low dose naltrexone, nor the uridine that I rotate work due to placebo effect. Their effects, germain to my condition, are all well-documented both in the literature and anecdotally on this board. I'm familiar with what works, what does not, and when that effect changes or otherwise manifests a side effect that needs to be mitigated. All of these aforementioned substances either change in effect over time or manifest a side effect. And so it goes due to the nature of the human organism's long-term interaction with exogenous chemicals. It's the nature of the adaptive beast.

"They say" who is "they"? And I call bullshit on that. Half of a good Doctor's treatment, for a significant problem, is not the belief of the patient. I really don't care what you try, and you are taking my magnanimous care for your continued responses, before, for granted in taking a weird tone with me. It's not about only you. I said that it may not work for you, and it may not. So don't try it. I wasn't trying to convince you, but only being nice in responding to your complaints about the innefectiveness of your high doses because I started the thread. However, my claims as to its efficacy for me, and its action outside of a placebo effect, remain steady. Last, thanks for the LSD info, but the metaphor remains solid due to the still comparitively insiginificant amount of LSD that is required for an effect. Also, LSD loses its effects quickly btw (so I read), but no one would accuse it of being a placebo. I actually disagree with your information on dose, from what I remember, but I'm not about to go trying to confirm this currently irrelevant info in the meantime. I have no actual interest in what is a specific effective LSD dose.

Edited by golgi1, 25 December 2012 - 06:39 AM.

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#23 Ames

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Posted 25 December 2012 - 06:36 AM

Update:

I had an unsettling amount of inflammation in my upper eyes last night. This is the type of inflammation that precedes a diificult ocular migraine, upon waking from a pain filled fitful sleep. I took two drops of the aforementioned sodium thiosulfate solution and 325mg of aspirin at around 1 am before bed, and proceeded to have a great night of sleep (slept until 11 am) with no pain or inflammation noticed after I initially dropped off.

Sodium thiosulfate, I noticed, can work as an abortive measure (after inflammation or migraine occurs) but it tends to not be effective as such without an aspirin (my choice of NSAID) taken with it. After a decade of experience, I know that any amount of aspirin is almost completely inneffective as an abortive on its own (Excedrin being the one of the only true abortives for me), but it seems to have an action that reduces inflammation in a way that allows Sodium thiosulfate to work once neuro or occular inflammation occurs. I have no idea what the difference in action on inflammation is, and why they complement each other, but I recommend the combination if inflammation or migraine is already present. As a prophylactic measure, sodium thiosulfate works on its own.

Edited by golgi1, 25 December 2012 - 06:42 AM.


#24 anagram

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 11:48 PM

I wouldn't take a reducing agent for a lot of reasons ( displacement of iron, changes in mitochondria)
but you seem to be getting a lot of benefit. Is there any written evidence that sodium thiosulphate will inhibit or modulate cytokines and immune response in a study or something?
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#25 Hip

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 05:30 AM

Over the last few weeks I have been experimenting with daily doses of sodium thiosulfate ranging from 30 mg to 100 mg. I found no major benefits, apart from a slight reduction in my sinusitis, but no other benefits, nor side effects either, at these dose levels.

Just to put this in perspective: the 30 mg dose I took is around 5400 times larger than the 5.6 mcg dose taken by golgi, and 15 times larger than the 2 mg dose taken by adamh.

Given that I took 5400 times more sodium thiosulfate than golgi, and still experienced little effect, to me it seems like golgi's experiences were probably a placebo effect. That of course is nothing to be ashamed of: placebo is a real effect.

Edited by Hip, 23 January 2013 - 06:02 AM.


#26 landcat

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Posted 24 May 2013 - 06:29 AM

I'm currently taking sodium thiosulfate by iv, 3 times a week. I have definitely noticed increased sleepiness and have had some pretty severe night sweats and vivid dreams. I haven't really noticed any improvement in mood. One thing that I am worried about is that my teeth feel loose. Because it solubizes calcium so effectively (which is why I am taking it) I am concerned that I may loose teeth. I know it has good effects on the brain and is a strong antioxidant, and I know it is an antidote for cyanide poisoning. If it weren't for the condition I have, which is calcification of my basal ganglia, I probably wouldn't consider using it, but right now it is really the only thing I know that will cross the blood brain barrier and will chelate calcium. It has been used with positive effect on dialysis patients with calcification of the kidneys and I would extrapolate from that and consider that it could help with diminishing plaque buildup in arteries. The iv's are quite expensive ($200 each) so I really hope it helps my particular condition, which is probably genetically based (although all the genes have not been identified yet). Hope this information is of some value.

One other use I have discovered for sodium thiosulfate is as a fungicide.

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#27 theskyking123

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Posted 18 September 2017 - 08:01 PM

Hi, I'm new here and since several years have passed since this thread was started I'm wondering if anyone has any updates on their experiences with sodium thiosulfate. Thanks! Bryan






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