44 replies to this topic

[Rejuvena]

27 years old, female, I am trying to recover from taking hypnotic sleeping pills called Ambien - I gradually became dependent by taking them every night as doctor prescribed, but later they didnt work as well as at the beginning, then my anxiety problems during the day caused me to take some during the day also. The dose escalated to around 8 pills and very often I combined them with alcohol. This has been going on for the past year. Doctors tried to get me off it cold turkey by detoxing with Diazepam, but after the detoxes I feel now even worse, can;t concentrate, finish tasks etc all they gave me was diazepam which caused worse effects than anything - mainly obsessive thoughts to which I am prone and shaking, near panic attacks. I started taking small doses of Ambien again to feel a bit more normal, I read suddenly stopping Ambien is not recommended. I dont want to end up in a hospital, but I dont want to continue to poison my body with this. Is there any way to taper this drug without diazepam or to soften the effects of withdrawal with some supplements? I'm taking magnesium and b's but i dont feel like its enough. Doctors only want to pump me with meds with worse side effects.
I also look worse and am afraid the stress is aging me fast. Will I be able to recover from this - regain my mental health and look like myself again?

[Kompota]

Ambien is a Z-drug, a family of hypnotics very similar to benzodiazepines, as they have the same mechanism of action - agonism at the GABA receptors. They were intended to provide a less addictive alternative to benzos particularly for sleep issues, with a shorter half-life and a much higher affinity for the "sedative" GABA-a subunits. Sadly, in reality things do not quite work as intended, and the addiction potential of z-drugs is very similar to that of benzos. The reason Ambien has lost it's effectiveness, is because some serious neuroadaptations have happened in the CNS: not only you need more of the drug to maintain the same effect, but when you stop it completely, the full scale of the issue becomes apparent - the GABA-a receptors have become less sensitive, less "functional". This - as we believe - has some chain effects on other neurotransmitters, hormones and systems, as our bodies attempt to maintain a chemical balance, the so called "homeostasis".
I do not want to discourage you, but the reverse process of GABA receptor recovery can be very long and painful. Dr. Heather Ashton states somewhere between 6 and 18 months, you may need less, you may need more (unlikely though). But one thing I can assure you - it does happen, most certainly.

Long-term GABA-receptor downregulation, although not entirely aknowledged by the medical profession, is a real thing and a quite serious issue. It may be difficult to find an educated doctor where you live, but it is highly recommended to do it. I am not a medical person, but I am suffering from a protracted benzodiazepine withdrawal, and I can relate to most of your symptoms. During my suffering I have done a lot of research, which helped me to connect the dots, and I may be able to share some useful info.

It may sound bad, but the best thing right now might be a proper Valium (Diazepam) taper, at a rate which is comfortable for you in order to keep symptoms manageable and to remain somewhat functional. I know the word "Diazepam" is ringing the alarm bells, but in reality it isn't that worse than the Ambien. The "good" thing (under the circumstances of course) about Valium is it's very long half-life. It helps with maintaining stable blood levels and avoiding so called "interdose" withdrawal symptoms, which you may experience with short half-life drugs like the Ambien. That's why Valium is recommended for a taper.

"was diazepam which caused worse effects than anything - mainly obsessive thoughts to which I am prone and shaking, near panic attacks"

There should be a certain cross-tolerance between Diazepam and Ambien, but it may be difficult to estimate the exact dose needed, and it may have not reached comfortable blood levels at that time. You might just have experienced withdrawal symptoms from the Ambien. Also notice - sadly, a full elimination of symptoms may be hard to achieve. And as I read, they have used Diazepam for a detox (I have a very bad opinion of those detoxes) within a few days ? A detox does not equal a proper taper, which takes longer, but is the right way to do it.

The Ashton manual may be helpful:
http://www.benzo.org.uk/manual/

After completing a taper, it requires TIME, a healthy lifestyle, and patience. There is no miracle drug.

Those are topics on this forum, which are related to the problem:

http://www.longecity...oes-it-reverse/

http://www.longecity...ly-effectively/

http://www.longecity...age-and-repair/

http://www.longecity...racetam-bacopa/


I will try to answer any questions you may have on the issue. I can confirm - once you get off and given enough time, things get only better and better.

Edited by Kompota, 06 November 2012 - 02:56 PM.

[renfr]

If you can get a prescription of flumazenil, go for it. It is used to reverse fastly benzo withdrawal.
If you can't get it or don't want to use flumazenil I suggest you use those drugs :
- Magnesium TRAACS chelated 300-400mg a day
- Taurine amino acid 1000-3000mg a day up to 5000mg but not everyday
- Bacopa monnieri, for 40% bacoside titration : 250-1500mg a day, if you have diarrhea on high doses reduce the dosage or take dairy products
DO NOT :
* Take bacopa with SSRIs or any substance acting on serotonin
* Take bacopa with MAOIs
- Detoxifiers : Benzos are fat soluble chemicals, they stay in your cells therefore your MUST detoxify yourself, the following are solutions to cleanse your body
=> Exercise as much as you can, exercising will allow your cells to excrete toxins and throw out benzo residue
=> Use detoxifiers such as MSM (750mg for a first dose then 1500mg up to 4500mg if you feel fine) and also Chlorella.
DO :
* Take a lot of water in combination with MSM (2-3L is ideal)
- Supply vitamin C with MSM as it is synergetic (for best results use liposomal sodium ascorbate)
DO NOT :
* Take blood thinning medications (such as warfarin) in combination with MSM
* Increase MSM doses if you have a fever-like reaction, this reaction is normal but doesn't always happen, if you face it, lower the dose and keep up drinking water and taking vitamin C
- Acetylcholine and cholinergics : I suggest you take them if your heart feels a bit racing, taking cholinergics (soy lecithin, phosphatidylcholine, alpha GPC, CDP choline, choline bitartrate/citrate, high dose fish oil, ALCAR or ALCAR arginate) will counter norepinephrine/adrenaline rushes, it will ease on your heart but also make you feel better.
Dosage depends on the cholinergic drug you take. You should take caffeine with it to help with your withdrawal.

If you want faster reversal you can try an extreme solution through caffeine :
- Take 20mg of caffeine (= 8 ounces of green tea) the first day and evaluate its effects
- If you can handle it up to 40mg, if you can't keep taking the lower dose
- Etc... but do not exceed 100-200mg depending on your caffeine tolerance
The most important is to keep taking caffeine (whether dose you take) during 1-2 weeks at least.
Caffeine will upregulate strongly GABA receptors over the weeks but this solution is extreme as it can worsen temporarily your anxiety and panic attacks.
It is advised to stack caffeine with CHOLINERGICS as it will ease on your panics attacks while help with the withdrawal.

Of course, never go cold turkey, those drugs are here to help you withdraw not necessarily fastly but with less symptoms.

I also look worse and am afraid the stress is aging me fast.

Are you saying stress is making you ageing physically faster? In that case I suggest you take vitamin C and glutathione in their liposomal form, they will help fight ageing but also restore your physical health (heart, liver, infections, ...).

The most important is to take calming drugs in order to not feel a lot of anxiety and it is also very important to detoxify your body, several people who withdrew benzos months or even years ago STILL feel withdrawal symptoms because benzos stay in their cells and from time to time the content is released making further withdrawal.
Last but not least, keep up and don't give up, you can do it.

Edited by renfr, 06 November 2012 - 03:24 PM.

[summertimex]

take iboga ta 500mg x 2 for alcohol withdrawal. it'll help you a lot and make you less depressed.

take b vitamin complex and subulthiamine
magnesium-l-threonate version
some of the stuff he mentioned

you need a lot of detoxifiers
ALA/NAC

also ashwaganda and lions mane for dentrites. hypnotics decrease your dendrite length.

ashwaganda is actually a healthy mild gaba agonist it'll calm you down over time.

you can make a productive calming effect with pro-brain supplements instead of benzos and the chol. relax and think about it. then stack.

Edited by gen6k, 06 November 2012 - 03:48 PM.

[Kompota]

... several people who withdrew benzos months or even years ago STILL feel withdrawal symptoms because benzos stay in their cells and from time to time the content is released making further withdrawal.

That is a common myth and a misconception which draws attention from the very root of the problem - the deep and long-lasting changes in GABA receptors, which are slow to reverse.
After all, fat tissue is in equilibrium with the blood. No traceable amounts of benzodiazepines have been found through blood tests performed on people in post-acute / protracted withdrawal.

Also about flumazenil - it is not something which should be used for a detox. It is brutal and unnecessary, and although they use anti-convulsants to prevent seizures, it is a very bad experience and possibly dangerous while you are still dependant on a benzo or a z-drug.
"It is used to reverse fastly benzo withdrawal." - there isn't such a thing. No magic bullet really.
I wouldn't consider a flumazenil treatment before at least a few have passed after the last benzo / z-drug pill. It may provide a relief (with possible longer-term effects) during post-acute withdrawal - the jury is still out on this - but is not a solution right now.

[Rejuvena]

Thank you for your responses, I am very confused and scared and have some further questions
Kompota - which of the symptoms of gaba damage persist the longest - all of them or mostly cognitive? When does extreme debilitating anxiety subside?
Also - I don;t want to go back to my previous extremely high dose of Ambien and also I can;t because no doctor would prescribe it for me. They gave me diazepam pills to take only for a few days, I think the dose is too low, but I continue taking it. I dont want to become dependent on diazepam either, but of course i need it for a taper.
What I wanted to ask was - can I manage the withdrawal by taking only diazepam from now AND - what are the risks of going cold turkey on ambien as opposed to what the toxicity was doing to my body - memory loss, confusion extreme anxiety, shaking. I definietly cant go back to alcohol and start tapering it, that would be too toxic.

Could withdrawal cause damage to the brain? Will I become more confused than after ambien? could I get psychotic?

I am trying to find a good specialist in my area, but everyone i consulted told me to go cold turkey on the ambien.
I don;t want to end up going to the hospital. Please advise what to do for the next few days. Right now I haven't gone without any anxiolytic (diazepam) for longer than 4 hours. I have taken no more than 4 ambiens throughout the day in very small divided doses. Insomnia is also an issue, but mostly anxiety.

Also - any more advice you can give me about the physical aging - most of it was probably caused by alcohol use and stress.
The liposomal vitamin c and glutathione - coud you recommend any brands?
And some other anti-aging, regenerative supplements that do not increase anxiety.

I also think my problem is i took a medication that is for sleeping during the day - if i manage to get ambien to taper off, do I elimnate all daytime taking and switch it to nighttime like in the ashton zolpiclone schedule?

Edited by Rejuvena, 06 November 2012 - 10:21 PM.

[renfr]

... several people who withdrew benzos months or even years ago STILL feel withdrawal symptoms because benzos stay in their cells and from time to time the content is released making further withdrawal.

That is a common myth and a misconception which draws attention from the very root of the problem - the deep and long-lasting changes in GABA receptors, which are slow to reverse.
After all, fat tissue is in equilibrium with the blood. No traceable amounts of benzodiazepines have been found through blood tests performed on people in post-acute / protracted withdrawal.

Also about flumazenil - it is not something which should be used for a detox. It is brutal and unnecessary, and although they use anti-convulsants to prevent seizures, it is a very bad experience and possibly dangerous while you are still dependant on a benzo or a z-drug.
"It is used to reverse fastly benzo withdrawal." - there isn't such a thing. No magic bullet really.
I wouldn't consider a flumazenil treatment before at least a few have passed after the last benzo / z-drug pill. It may provide a relief (with possible longer-term effects) during post-acute withdrawal - the jury is still out on this - but is not a solution right now.

Well sire, this is exactly what the Ashton manual says that benzodiazepines are fat soluble.
Therefore it is obvious that they are stored in cells INCLUDING z-drugs. This is not a myth, it is a fact, this is the explanation of rebound withdrawal, such a thing couldn't happen if your body was totally free of benzos.

Yes, flumazenil is like the coffee solution, it is extreme but it allows a faster upregulation of gaba receptors.
In any case either you go to hell for 1-2weeks and get nearly cured or either you taper off very slowly over several months or even years with fat soluble gaba agonists, that's your weapon of choice but both solutions works if you detoxify yourself.

Also - any more advice you can give me about the physical aging - most of it was probably caused by alcohol use and stress.
The liposomal vitamin c and glutathione - coud you recommend any brands?
And some other anti-aging, regenerative supplements that do not increase anxiety.

There are two main brands, livonlabs and maxhealthlabs. I personally prefer maxhealthlabs because they hide the foul taste of lecithin.
You can also take vitamin E for anti aging.

Edited by renfr, 06 November 2012 - 10:14 PM.

[Rejuvena]

I was also wondering - maybe I'm trying to do too many things at once - go cold turkey off too much alcohol and an ambien addiction at the same time? I havent been drinking lately after a looooong time of frequent abuse so maybe both withdrawal symptoms are combining and magnifying each other? I have no desire to drink alcohol even at my most anxious now, I've developed a huge fear of it (brain damage fear), but my nervous system is probably still feeling its effects. Could a diazepam taper alleviate both? Is it less damaging than alcohol to brain and body (thats why it is also used in alcohol withdrawal, as I read) ?
Also, I have taken ambien for just over a year (not many years), initially in complete accordance with the doctors and with intervals, only later it got out of control.

I also wanted to ask - is there a way to naturally lower the adrenaline and cortisol levels which cause anxiety?

Edited by Rejuvena, 07 November 2012 - 01:37 AM.

[summertimex]

I was also wondering - maybe I'm trying to do too many things at once - go cold turkey off too much alcohol and an ambien addiction at the same time? I havent been drinking lately after a looooong time of frequent abuse so maybe both withdrawal symptoms are combining and magnifying each other? I have no desire to drink alcohol even at my most anxious now, I've developed a huge fear of it (brain damage fear), but my nervous system is probably still feeling its effects. Could a diazepam taper alleviate both? Is it less damaging than alcohol to brain and body (thats why it is also used in alcohol withdrawal, as I read) ?
Also, I have taken ambien for just over a year (not many years), initially in complete accordance with the doctors and with intervals, only later it got out of control.

I also wanted to ask - is there a way to naturally lower the adrenaline and cortisol levels which cause anxiety?

you need neuroprotectants (various)
take the iboga
DHA type (strong omega 3)


gaba maintenence with picamilion, ashwaganda, bacopa,

if you take enough pills and withdraw straight you should be over the peak in 2-3 months (much lighter with iboga) then within a year your neurotransmission should be normalized.

after youre more normalized take Nootropics/Hebals/Supplements for cognition for 1 year. including multivitamin, and running/walking long distance/jogging three times a week. it'll increase brain growth and detox.

Edited by gen6k, 07 November 2012 - 04:09 AM.

[renfr]

Alcohol abuse leads to vitamin Bs deficiency therefore I suggest you supplement a vitamin B complex (B1 to B12) overall B1 in large doses (500mg a day for 1 week).
Alcohol abuse can also lead to choline defiency and therefore high heart rate, you might want to supplement that as well.
Alcohol abuse causes serotonin downregulation so taking bacopa is advisable as well.
Alcohol abuse of course causes gaba downregulation, again bacopa can help there as well as taurine and magnesium to protect from glutamate excitotoxicity.

Don't go cold turkey on anything, this is a serious matter, going off cold turkey on gaba agonists leads to extreme glutamate levels compared to gaba this can lead to extreme convulsions and ultimately cause death (and an horrible one).
All I can suggest is to avoid at most taking more gaba agonists to not slow down upregulation, keep on tapering off even if its low and take those supplements we suggest you as they will help you in feeling better and it will make withdrawal faster.

[Rejuvena]

Hi, thanks again for your replies - I wanted to ask about the supplement dosages - for example magnesium - I have a tendency to diarrhea so don;t want to overso it, but I don;t want to take too small a dose - what dose would be best? Also the taurine, dha. and others - and at what time of day to take them.
I also still dont know exactly how to taper - the withdrawal table from zolpidem withdrawal says to take everything at nighttime, but then my worst symptoms appear upon waking, if I sleep at all. Should I take the diazepam WITH the zolpidem at night or diazepam in divided small dosages during the day as ive been doing now?
The memory and attention problems are really increasing the anxiety. How soon after not taking the drug does one know one is safe from convulsions? Or do they start suddenly?

[Galaxyshock]

Yes, flumazenil is like the coffee solution, it is extreme but it allows a faster upregulation of gaba receptors.
In any case either you go to hell for 1-2weeks and get nearly cured or either you taper off very slowly over several months or even years with fat soluble gaba agonists, that's your weapon of choice but both solutions works if you detoxify yourself.

You can't be seriously suggesting Flumazenil for ACUTE withdrawal? The withdrawal is already neurotoxic and you suggest adding fuel to the fire. That's when serious brain damage is done. The nervous system won't "focus" on upregulating GABA receptors because it doesn't "know what is wrong" or how to function in the absence of chemical. It does adaptive changes to keep you alive by shutting down and destroying different types excitatory transmission. This is when the cognitive decline happens. That "1-2 week hell" can either be lethal or bring a major trauma much worse than taper off.

[Rejuvena]

Hey, I'm bumping this to ask if someone could propose a supplement stack for me with approximate dosages and times to help with the taper off. I see all the supps here like ashwagandha and choline etx, and they sound so promising, but I have to order them from abroad first and before that I' wanted to figure out which shouldnt be combined with which and how many to take (Started taking the magnesium and b's and DHA cause thats what I have on hand for now.)

[Kompota]

Sorry for the late reply.

Thank you for your responses, I am very confused and scared and have some further questions
Kompota - which of the symptoms of gaba damage persist the longest - all of them or mostly cognitive? When does extreme debilitating anxiety subside?
Also - I don;t want to go back to my previous extremely high dose of Ambien and also I can;t because no doctor would prescribe it for me. They gave me diazepam pills to take only for a few days, I think the dose is too low, but I continue taking it. I dont want to become dependent on diazepam either, but of course i need it for a taper.
What I wanted to ask was - can I manage the withdrawal by taking only diazepam from now AND - what are the risks of going cold turkey on ambien as opposed to what the toxicity was doing to my body - memory loss, confusion extreme anxiety, shaking. I definietly cant go back to alcohol and start tapering it, that would be too toxic.

Could withdrawal cause damage to the brain? Will I become more confused than after ambien? could I get psychotic?

I am trying to find a good specialist in my area, but everyone i consulted told me to go cold turkey on the ambien.
I don;t want to end up going to the hospital. Please advise what to do for the next few days. Right now I haven't gone without any anxiolytic (diazepam) for longer than 4 hours. I have taken no more than 4 ambiens throughout the day in very small divided doses. Insomnia is also an issue, but mostly anxiety.

Also - any more advice you can give me about the physical aging - most of it was probably caused by alcohol use and stress.
The liposomal vitamin c and glutathione - coud you recommend any brands?
And some other anti-aging, regenerative supplements that do not increase anxiety.

I also think my problem is i took a medication that is for sleeping during the day - if i manage to get ambien to taper off, do I elimnate all daytime taking and switch it to nighttime like in the ashton zolpiclone schedule?

First of all - alcohol should be avoided during benzo / z-drug withdrawal. As a GABA receptor agonist (mostly at GABA-b though) it has a similar mechanism of action as those and it may slow down recovery. There was a poster on this forum, who was in benzo withdrawal, and reported a massive setback from drinking alcohol after he had been feeling almost healed prior to that. In course of my recovery so far I have generally avoided drinking (never been a drinker anyway). No distilled alcohol, and only a very occasional glass of beer or wine at meal time. I haven't noticed any difference, but I believe heavy drinking in withdrawal is a recipe for trouble.

So basically you are using Ambien as an anxiolytic ? It is not what it was intended for. Altough it has some degree of anxiolytic effect (proven by the fact that it has managed to screw up the receptors with anxiety as a result), it is not very effective for that purpose, so you need to take a higher relative dosage, and due to it's short half-life (2-3 hours as I read) you need to split it into few doses in order to maintain stable plasma levels. Diazepam should be better suited for the purpose, with it's very long half-life and more pronounced anxiolytic action. The question is to find a high enough dosage to achieve a crossover and stabilize on Diazepam only.
A few notes:
- With the long half-life in mind, you may experience a stack-up effect, so don't rush into conclusions after only a few days
- Sadly, a full elimination of symptoms is hardly achievable. Maybe at a very high dose, but that is not what you really want. It is important to prevent the worst possible effects such as seizures, psychosis, delirium and to avoid glutamate excitotoxicity, which may cause neural damage. About the rest - it is best to just ride it out, but that is from my experience of course. I went off 1 mg Clonazepam cold turkey, which is a 20 mg Diazepam equivalent. I don't regret it, but I do not advise it to anyone. So we speak about "stabilizing" in relative terms. The acute withdrawal is very hard to endure, but it usually does not last for more than 2-3 months, around 6 weeks or so in my case.
- I suggest at first: keep taking Diazepam, but try to limit the Ambien prior to bedtime only. Then as the effect of the Diazepam starts to build-up, you may try getting off the Ambien completely. Again - that should be good enough to prevent the worst, but don't expect to feel 100%, just ride it out. Once you feel somewhat stable, you may start tapering off the Diazepam at a rate, which you feel is comfortable.
- Since sleep is a main issue, and it is so important for recovery itself, it is to be noted that there are certain sleep aids, which are not GABA-agonists. They may not work wonders, and most certainly not during acute withdrawal, but they should provide help nontheless.

[Rejuvena]

Hey, thanks for the reply - what would those sleep aids be? Like prescriptions stuff or OTC? Could you mention a few? I'd take them post acute of course, I'm scared shitless of adding anything beyond a supplement right now.
I'm not drinking alcohol right now, I used to do it while still taking zolpidem - the drug made me do all sorts of reckless stuff, so the effects combined and now I'm sort of in double withdrawal - both from too much alcohol and the ambien, but while its easy for me to not feel anxiety at the thought of not drinking - I just get a slight appetite when I see someone with a glass of something, but no major craving, I do feel panicky at the thought of not taking the pill. Thats just psychologically, but i thing the reactions of my body are both to alcohol and ambien withdrawal.
I found a physician who initially wanted me to sign into rehab for the drug, but I got her to write me a Diazepam taper -off instead, but it is ridiculously short., just 3 more days with the dose I'm taking now (which only just keeps me from going completely crazy), then a taper for another three days, then taper again. I think taking each stage should be prolonged to at least a week, if I want a quicker taper than the one recommended online, but not too quick. Hope I have enough pills to pull this off.

Edited by Rejuvena, 09 November 2012 - 11:35 PM.

[summertimex]

physicians are mcdonalds bull

theyre just going to take your money and give you a benzo.

measure what you need for the brain yourself through "phenomenological" techniques and reading studies.

Edited by gen6k, 10 November 2012 - 10:05 AM.

[Kompota]

That's too fast to even remotely call it a taper. As far as I remember, Dr. Ashton recommends going down 10% each 2 weeks. Try to explain you need a longer prescription in order to complete a proper taper.

There are some options for non-GABA related sleep aids.
1) Older generation of anti-depressants (not the comperatively newer SSRI-s, from what I have read they are even contra-productive for sleep) such as tricylics, tetra-cyclics or "atypical" ones. I still take 25 mg of Trazodone for sleep down from 100 mg in acute withdrawal and 50 mg most of the time. I didn't notice any development of tolerance and was able to go down the dosage without trouble. And I have recently read that it has almost no anticholinergic effect (brain fog is most likely related to that) unlike other anti-depressants. Anti-depressants act as serotonin or serotonin - norepinephrine reuptake inhibitors (although some of them may have additional mechanisms of action). It means maintaining higher levels of serotonin in the synapses. Beyond the primary anti-depressant purpose, the increased synaptic serotonin may also exhibit a certain sedative effect, which is not as strong as that of GABA agonists of course. Those older anti-depressants are prescribed as an off-label sleep remedy. That means the required doses are usually lower than those prescribed for treating depression and this is a positive thing actually, as it means the possibility to experience unwanted side effects and developing a tolerance is lower.
Some people on benzobuddies have reported good results with Remeron (Mirtazepine).
2) Anti-histamines (Benadryl for example). High levels of cortisol may contribute to the overall hyperexcited state during GABA agonists withdrawal. As you know, cortisol is a stress hormone, and the GABA - Glutamate imbalance is a stress factor itself. When I read that cortisol is being used in the circadian cycle to wake you up in the morning, I connected the dots. I myself have no trouble falling asleep, and it was only a huge issue in acute withdrawal and an occasional issue in the first year of recovery. The problem for me has been rather with waking up early, although this has improved greatly as well, and as of now I manage to sleep uninterrupted until around 5 A.M. What is interesting, is that at the same time early in the morning I have that feeling of weakness or heaviness in the body (limbs mainly). That is due to high cortisol, and apparently it's levels are proportionally higher during withdrawal from benzos / z-drugs.

Do not expect wonders from those above, they may not be able to fully compensate for a compromised GABAergic system, but only help to a certain extend. The important things is that anything you might take as a remedy or supplement should not affect the long term goal of healing.

[summertimex]

http://garrysun.com/jatamansi.html

here is another natural calmer available at amazon.

make sure you take like 6-8 things for proper efficacy, but different kinds of things toward the same goal.

phosphatydlserine powder is good for lowering coristol
magnesium-l-threonate can lower glutamate excititoxicity
DHA
ashwaganda
jatamansi
picamilion
iboga 500mg two times
aniracetam/choline or pramiracetam/choline
N-acetyl-cysteine/Alpha-lipoic acid (neuroprotection and detox)
high b vitamins

would be sufficient, but go after what you feel is correct for your status


for the normalized cognition stage just take any nootropics that help that.


oh and youre eventually going to have to do liver detox, N-acetyl-cysteine helps with liver and so does milk thistle.


this is why i think you should take iboga. deactivates and normalizes HPA-axis (adrenal-pituatary), noribogaine its metabolite is a natrual feeling SSRI and serotonin enhancer, it has NMDA antagonism that reduces dopamine and resets dopamine reward system. it also activates endorphins (decreases pain)
take the iboga with diazepam and a racetam to decrease its negative effects. you would just have to lay in bed for 12 hours while it works on you.

Edited by gen6k, 11 November 2012 - 12:53 AM.

[summertimex]

you need to also concentrate on the proletarian neuro cause the structures are not going to be built underneath with some agonist.

[Rejuvena]

I actually got a prescription for mirtazapine, gonna have it tomorrow. Doc said I should take it at night, but of course didnt explain if i can do it while taking the tapering diazepam throughtout the day. Can I do that?

[Rejuvena]

Also, it should elevate the mood, right? cause aside from anxiety I have major mood fluctuations, mostly depression.

[Rejuvena]

Also, if i take the mirtazapine, can i also take the iboga supplement? i think both work on SSRI so wouldnt i be risking serotonin syndrome?
Summertimex - could you explain about the iboga together with diazepam and racetam - would it be taken together at night and then i'd be out for 12 hours? Also, what is proletarian neuro? I'm a complete rookie at this

Edited by Rejuvena, 11 November 2012 - 11:15 PM.

[summertimex]

what happens is you should take iboga/diazepam and a racetam upon waking. the day before make sure you eat alot. then you just have to lay in bed for about 12 hours its because of its dissasociative effect, and has an effect on balance. you would get an electromagnetic shield surrounding you. a few visual distortions. your head would feel clean and like it is tuning an engine. the balance walking effect is annoying, but at that dosage none of the side effects are uncomfortable. its just a little tune up.

no you should let most of it flush out of your system for mirtazapine.

the diazepam decreases the sense of urgency of iboga, and the racetam decreases and aligns the CNS distortion so that it is a smooth ride. this is because it doesnt let the person fall in to a k-hole-like event then it antagonizes that part. it keeps the person conscious and safe from worry. the positive effects of iboga are still strong it almost feels as if spirits are cleaning up your brain. the racetam counter-acts the cns depression effect of the diazepam, so the iboga has a chance to get inscripted in to memory.

yes the alcohol causes mood dysregulation, but if you dont have bipolar this effect will stabalize with iboga and racetams. racetams cut through the "serotonergic" realm of depression in to the structural-thought course of depression. strong racetams modulate mood and make one less emotionally liable the brain becomes more reason orientated.

the iboga plain out makes life a fantasy again. including increase of vision like hd hobbit the shire vision from lord of the rings. decreases anxiety. it does decrease vigilance the person is slower paced. it increases ability to see the positive side of things. you should eventually order an extra gram to take in microdoses every couple of days to keep its serotonin mechanism at peak. the deep serotonergic phase lasts about a week at that dose for each dose. then you can keep on taking microdoses for 2 months to get a grip on yourself again. noribogaine is a higher systematic form of serotonin donation it basically produces the serotonin for you, and its a step up from serotonin in some ways. your brain wouldnt have to struggle to produce serotonin, and it would start the serotonergic engine of your brain.

Edited by summertimex, 12 November 2012 - 01:26 AM.

[Rejuvena]

what happens is you should take iboga/diazepam and a racetam upon waking. the day before make sure you eat alot. then you just have to lay in bed for about 12 hours its because of its dissasociative effect, and has an effect on balance. you would get an electromagnetic shield surrounding you. a few visual distortions. your head would feel clean and like it is tuning an engine. the balance walking effect is annoying, but at that dosage none of the side effects are uncomfortable. its just a little tune up.

no you should let most of it flush out of your system for mirtazapine.

the diazepam decreases the sense of urgency of iboga, and the racetam decreases and aligns the CNS distortion so that it is a smooth ride. this is because it doesnt let the person fall in to a k-hole-like event then it antagonizes that part. it keeps the person conscious and safe from worry. the positive effects of iboga are still strong it almost feels as if spirits are cleaning up your brain. the racetam counter-acts the cns depression effect of the diazepam, so the iboga has a chance to get inscripted in to memory.

yes the alcohol causes mood dysregulation, but if you dont have bipolar this effect will stabalize with iboga and racetams. racetams cut through the "serotonergic" realm of depression in to the structural-thought course of depression. strong racetams modulate mood and make one less emotionally liable the brain becomes more reason orientated.

the iboga plain out makes life a fantasy again. including increase of vision like hd hobbit the shire vision from lord of the rings. decreases anxiety. it does decrease vigilance the person is slower paced. it increases ability to see the positive side of things. you should eventually order an extra gram to take in microdoses every couple of days to keep its serotonin mechanism at peak. the deep serotonergic phase lasts about a week at that dose for each dose. then you can keep on taking microdoses for 2 months to get a grip on yourself again. noribogaine is a higher systematic form of serotonin donation it basically produces the serotonin for you, and its a step up from serotonin in some ways. your brain wouldnt have to struggle to produce serotonin, and it would start the serotonergic engine of your brain.

Does it matter which racetam it is? piracetam?

[summertimex]

pira is too weak. aniracetam or pramiracetam is fine with a choline donor. the aniracetam lasts 2 hours just in time for the come up. pramiracetam is more anxiolotic, they are both anxiolytic and will straigten visual distortions or make them "clean". the come up is the rough part cause the body has to adjust. you'll start to hear drumming on the come up. take the racetam not right when you take the iboga powder, but around half and hour later. if its too late you would have to come up without racetam if its too early the racetam would decrease for come up. iboga takes around 1hour maybe, and racetam takes 25 minutes. you can continue to take some
around 30 minutes before and some more like right when you hear the drumming. you would have to pee around every couple of hours, and drink water which you would be able to do. you cant sit up for long periods of time, but you can definetly walk to a close bathroom. at least after around 2 hours. you would be able to concentrate on any facet, but there would be a theme. you can get visual representations of the inner workings of your brain and so on. nevermind it sounds like the line drums from near the beginning of the song.

Edited by summertimex, 12 November 2012 - 02:16 AM.

[summertimex]

if you dont want to take racetam thats fine too. for that dose diazepam at hand would suffice. the racetam idea is really for the "neutralization" of the psychedelic effects. if you actually enjoy psychedelic quanderings it wont be a negative experience if you ask it to be soft on you because youve already been through a tough time.

in iboga territory the racetam is virtual, but it does decrease hallucinations and keeps the mind clearheaded. it becomes more of a bodily reoganization thing, but the depth experience is still there somewhat just more observer-like. what really matters for addiction is the noribogaine reset during sleep and feeling the effects when wake up.

this is an experience of someone taking 4g rootback. 10g rootbark would be 500mg total alkaloid. 20g rootbark is 1g total alkaloid.
https://www.dmt-nexu...g=posts&t=35454

try 500mg with or without the racetam. then contemplate taking 1.2g TA for a full flood at your weight if you get back to addiction. its really dosage sensitive where the immersiveness compounds. if you dont have psych exp i would recommend with racetam, but if you do have psych exp then go for the immersion of half a dose. well the usual total alkaloid dosage is 2-3 grams. low weight is like 2. TA is less nausea and contains around 12 active compounds.

you can also try with racetam first dose. then it'll clear 50-60% of your hard knots for you. then you can try the second time without. its just chill and boring dont overestimate it. grapple with your thoughts a bit, and you'll easily get passed the knots.

Edited by summertimex, 12 November 2012 - 04:17 AM.

[Rejuvena]

thanks, I might try it once the supplements I order get here, hope I keep improving till then anyway. Question - if I do this, what dose diazepam would be good to take?
Also - I'm rather afraid of psychedelic experiences due to my tendency for intrusive unwanted thoughts, so I was wondering if any of that combo might worsen obsessive tendencies or rather quiet them down? They get bad when Im in withdrawal
About liver detox - thats what I think I should do too - would it be safe to start taking milk thistle about now? There are so many meds in my system that I think even without alcohol the liver must be getting lots of work...Or would milk thistle react with the supps, meds and noots?

Edited by Rejuvena, 12 November 2012 - 08:39 PM.

[hippocampus]

what about glutamate? I don't know much about this, but glutamate and GABA system are very connected.
for example: http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/10580363
Maybe NAC could help or methylcobalamin or memantine. I don't know! - but it's something to look about. Does anybody have experience with these substances in benzo withdrawal?

[summertimex]

thanks, I might try it once the supplements I order get here, hope I keep improving till then anyway. Question - if I do this, what dose diazepam would be good to take?
Also - I'm rather afraid of psychedelic experiences due to my tendency for intrusive unwanted thoughts, so I was wondering if any of that combo might worsen obsessive tendencies or rather quiet them down? They get bad when Im in withdrawal
About liver detox - thats what I think I should do too - would it be safe to start taking milk thistle about now? There are so many meds in my system that I think even without alcohol the liver must be getting lots of work...Or would milk thistle react with the supps, meds and noots?

yeah you should start taking milk thistle with NAC. the hospital team uses NAC injection to decrease the liver toxicity of pill overdose actually. it counter-acts Tylenol poisoning for example. the milk thistle is a slow cell stimulator. the regeneration of the liver wont happen until there is neurotrophins again because benzos are anti cell growth.


well iboga is definetly worth it. the "psych" phase is only 2 hours, and its just random non-intrusive images with this formula. the psych part is not important except that it latches on to your neurotransmission for defragmentation. its really an almost perfect plant. it tends to decrease ocd, depression, addiction, etc overnight. this mechanism works with just noribogaine which is the non-psych metabolite instead is a quasi-serotonergic metabolite that stays in the system for weeks or months. one automatically becomes less tense, and they become more helpful to everyone. its not because of the psych experience, but the physiological calibration. it works somewhere deep on the cellular level as well. this is why it also has detoxification effects of metals and chemicals. whoever takes it believes its truly a "miracle plant", and it is misconstrued for this reason. its just flat out nature-god at its finest in all the little things it does. its not that profound after you see that it cuts to all the important corners. regular life goes on afterwards, but people definetly reset to more of a innocent and positive phase. of course from withdrawal theres still somethings to take care of in terms of formulating a plan, and getting off negative tensions. eventually within a few months within the helps of other vitamins its an opposite type of archetype thats working. basically after you take it youre going want to take it forever. then after taking it for a few months you would realize that you wont have to. with the usage of other maintenece vitamins.

its an anti-doperaminergic. it decreases extracellular dopamine by around 50% by increasing its metabolism. which means that it doesnt feel like a regular psych. its also less prone to cause psychosis because of this matter. its basically anti-psych instead of pro-psych at least for some/most.

http://www.ibogahous...cellular-detox/

Edited by summertimex, 13 November 2012 - 03:01 AM.

[summertimex]

this plant works contrary to pharmecuticals or anything extreme that you've taken. instead of for example "tightly" binding to a certain receptor, and also binding to a few inarticulate receptors. it actually creates a "low binding" stream network in the brain. all the sensitization it does is extremely light compared to for example a pharmecutical ssri. its an intelligent plant that synergises the spots, and it only has to do an energization and then it goes in to a light soft mode for weeks. the way it funnels dopamine is not from one site, but from around four sites. that is why you should at least take microdoses, but if you want an addictive full cut off instead of tolerance decrease it would be better to take just a low dose twice.

its way healthier than a dxm trip where you have to walk.

Edited by summertimex, 13 November 2012 - 04:38 AM.