25 replies to this topic

[MindSpark]

What do you consider as Utopia; the perfect world to live in?

Where there is no crime and everything is free.
Would humans stop progressing or will human development explode to phenomenal heights?

How would humans achieve Utopia?
What advances in technology would have to be made?

Feel free to post your own questions and opinions.
Let's try to keep a literal approach to see how Utopia can be accomplished.

I personally believe that infinite clean energy and a replicator device would be enough to achieve Utopia,
The replicator would turn any form of matter into the desired product you want, possible with nanotechnology.

infinite clean energy would be used to power all our devices, gadgets, and just make everything more productive.
This could be possible with anitmatter fusion combined with normal matter fusion, or a portal to the 4th dimension; would allow you to bring 4D objects into our 3D world and therefore include infinite energy.

Edited by MindSpark, 19 November 2012 - 08:14 PM.

[Danail Bulgaria]

If everything have to be free, then only machines should work.
People should only enjoy life and do science work.
The last should ensure the human development.

I started to want to live in such a world

But how to stop all crime?

[MindSpark]

The reason for crime generally, is due to money, which wouldn't matter in Utopia since everything is free,
but, then again there are other forms of crime as well, so to stop crime this Utopia would have to satisfy everybody's needs.

Only way that's possible is to have a really good justice system and some form of technology that would allow police officers to erase
the criminal's ideas/intentions.

This again calls for a very advanced technology.

[Luminosity]

The perfect world should ideally be made of whipped cream.

[sthira]

And cherries.

[MindSpark]

machines could possibly build a planet with whipped cream and cherries, although it would be really mushy.
we also would need a giant replicator.

[Galaxyshock]

Did you know that the first Matrix was designed to be a perfect human world? Where none suffered, where everyone would be happy. It was a disaster. No one would accept the program. Entire crops were lost. Some believed we lacked the programming language to describe your perfect world. But I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery. The perfect world was a dream that your primitive cerebrum kept trying to wake up from. Which is why the Matrix was redesigned to this: the peak of your civilization.

Edited by Galaxyshock, 21 November 2012 - 07:43 PM.

[Luminosity]

machines could possibly build a planet with whipped cream and cherries, although it would be really mushy.
we also would need a giant replicator.

By all means, get the replicator.

[MindSpark]

machines could possibly build a planet with whipped cream and cherries, although it would be really mushy.
we also would need a giant replicator.

By all means, get the replicator.

As soon as we find alien life to make them our slaves.

[Danail Bulgaria]

If we place aside the jokes, only machines working is a nice idea.

I don't think, however, that crime is due only to money. The good justice system have to remain.

So, people will only enjoy lifes, do science and justice

[corb]

What do you consider as Utopia; the perfect world to live in?

A world in which people do not age or get sick.

Where there is no crime and everything is free.

Feelings can't be free. Crimes of passion will always exist as long as humanity is around.

Would humans stop progressing or will human development explode to phenomenal heights?

Both. Technology will progress, people will regress emotionally.

How would humans achieve Utopia?

Cultural, military and religious (apathy) dominance of the western world. With the help of media brainwash. Most of the world already acts and thinks western, we're almost there by my estimation.

What advances in technology would have to be made?

Affordable robotics. Regenerative medicine. Everything else is optional.

I personally believe that infinite clean energy and a replicator device would be enough to achieve Utopia,

There's a difference between science and science fiction. Post scarcity society =/= endless resources.

The replicator would turn any form of matter into the desired product you want, possible with nanotechnology.

I don't think you understand how nanotechnology works. Don't get your information out of soft science fiction media.

would allow you to bring 4D objects into our 3D world and therefore include infinite energy.

What makes you think any dimension is boundless ?
What makes you think we can tap into another dimension ?

Edited by corb, 26 November 2012 - 02:12 AM.

[Luminosity]

Let's leave slaves out of our ideal world.

[MindSpark]

What do you consider as Utopia; the perfect world to live in?

A world in which people do not age or get sick.

Where there is no crime and everything is free.

Feelings can't be free. Crimes of passion will always exist as long as humanity is around.

Would humans stop progressing or will human development explode to phenomenal heights?

Both. Technology will progress, people will regress emotionally.

How would humans achieve Utopia?

Cultural, military and religious (apathy) dominance of the western world. With the help of media brainwash. Most of the world already acts and thinks western, we're almost there by my estimation.

What advances in technology would have to be made?

Affordable robotics. Regenerative medicine. Everything else is optional.

I personally believe that infinite clean energy and a replicator device would be enough to achieve Utopia,

There's a difference between science and science fiction. Post scarcity society =/= endless resources.

The replicator would turn any form of matter into the desired product you want, possible with nanotechnology.

I don't think you understand how nanotechnology works. Don't get your information out of soft science fiction media.

would allow you to bring 4D objects into our 3D world and therefore include infinite energy.

What makes you think any dimension is boundless ?
What makes you think we can tap into another dimension ?

Machines at the nanometer level can actually disassemble and reassemble atoms in various ways. The shear amount of such machines working in unison performing different functions for different types of molecules would be the basis of the workings of a replicator. Scientists are currently progressing very rapidly in manufacturing these nanoscale machines, the problem is the shear amount that is required and programming issues in a making a replicator feasible.

Virtual particles pop into existence and then suddenly disappear. These virtual particles have been mathematically proven to come from other dimensions using string theory. If we could supply large amounts of energy to any of those particles, we could,in theory open a portal to the dimension where the particle came from.

Your views are very practical and will actually help us come to a conclusion of what utopia might look like.
Keep Posting.

Let's leave slaves out of our ideal world.

Done,
Machines will work for us.

[MindSpark]

What do we do about the fact that everyone in the world has different tastes and perspectives, some of which could be conflicting with each other.

Do we just brainwash everyone and get them to think more narrowly or can we actually try to satisfy each and every person?

[Danail Bulgaria]

Noooo, do not brainwash the poor people. Everyone, who do not want to live in Utopia, where people do not age and machines only work, will have the right to live outside Utopia, work all their lifes and die olld, sick, wrinkled and/or age - demented.

Selecting only people, who have not being sued may reduce dramatically the crime in Utopia.

[Danail Bulgaria]

By the way crob, why do You think, that humans will achieve Utopia by cultural, military and religious (apathy) dominance of the western world.

Religion definately will be against a world, where noone ages and noone dies, and noone fears from the hell because of that. So, this is fine.

Why do You think that cultural and military western dominance are crucial?

[sthira]

Let's leave slaves out of our ideal world.

I think Luminosity is onto something. One approach to improving life on earth is to lessen the obviously bad things and increase the obviously good things -- good and bad we all agree upon. Fewer trees, for example, is generally bad.

[MindSpark]

What if some people want utopia for themselves only, kind of like a dominant power. (dictator rule)

How would Utopia's government and justice system be like, Democracy (still has flaws), Imperial(no one would be happy), no government (no justice or productivity)?

Also if everything becomes free, humans would stop progressing since no one would create things to earn money. (very few people do it for moral cause)
No new inventions would mean no progress, on the other hand an economy would prevent us from achieving Utopia due to poverty, money lust,etc.

This is a huge problem we face.

[PWAIN]

I think everyone is stumbling around the answer. Every person is different and therefore has a different idea of Utopia. The answer is to provide each person their own universe where they set the parameters. Each universe can have AI interactions that act like other humans but they can be tailored to respond in ways that are preferred by the owner. If a group of people are happy to be together, they can share a universe.
The universes would probably be virtual reality like in the Matrix.

Anyway this one is mine

[corb]

By the way crob, why do You think, that humans will achieve Utopia by cultural, military and religious (apathy) dominance of the western world.

Religion definately will be against a world, where noone ages and noone dies, and noone fears from the hell because of that. So, this is fine.

Why do You think that cultural and military western dominance are crucial?

That's why I put apathy in the brackets. In the western world we don't mix government with religion, it's a personal matter and everyone decides how to deal with it. Most people tend to ignore religion for the most part. Whether religion will have a problem with it or not is yet to be seen. And generally only Abrahamic (I'm personally only considering one of them a major threat) religions keep death in such a high regard to voice distaste.
Bare in mind they do stem cell treatments in Turkey. Indonesia and Pakistan are considered hubs for medical tourism in their region, etc.
As long as it's secular government it's all right. Well the Pakistani aren't secular but they're getting there I think.

For utopia we will generally need these things :
Centralized world government.
Centralized education. Both untouched by religion.
Centralized employment - all companies owned by everyone. But not like in communism. I'm still not quite concrete on this one.
Fundamentally changed copyrights.
No violence and war.
No manual labor done by humans.
Extreme life extension. Immortality is a completely different topic altogether.

All of these are hard to do, but not impossible.

I think everyone is stumbling around the answer. Every person is different and therefore has a different idea of Utopia.

Yes that's a fact. But we can potentially give most people most of what they want. This would keep us mostly in an utopian state.
Virtual reality might alleviate some of the problems caused by cultural incompatibility but the way I see it, it's better to have one dominant culture, it will be safer in the long run.

Anyway I'd like to add we might be close to reaching a semi utopian state. The longer we don't have wars the closer do we get to actual social progress. Hatemongering is our biggest enemy.

How would Utopia's government and justice system be like

Really not as big of a problem as you think.
The main function of a government is to distribute the people's wealth. We have instant communications, now everyone can decide what they see as a priority and where they wants their wealth to be distributed - we could do this right now, I'm not quite sure why we don't do it (probably has to do with internet fraud). We could run a government with crowdfunding imagine that .

The justice system is a different problem altogether, but it's not something you would have much use for in an utopia, sociopaths and the like would be "cured" at birth.

Edited by corb, 01 December 2012 - 11:02 PM.

[BeastMODE]

I feel as though our utopia has already been here and passed. I feel as humans we have gotten so far from our roots and have taken on a purpose that does not benefit ourselves as organisms. This industrial revolution and the journey for this so called progress has deteriorated many social values of our lives, and caused many physical and mental health issues all in the name of progress. I feel as though a more natural lifestyle is where this "utopia" takes place. A great example would be the Okinawans who before globalization enjoyed a more spiritual life with a sense of purpose that was long lived and healthy with great family values. I feel as though this progress you dream of is only setting you back further from your goal.

[PWAIN]

For utopia we will generally need these things :
Centralized world government.

Brrrr you are one scary individual - I'm guessing you are young.

I think everyone is stumbling around the answer. Every person is different and therefore has a different idea of Utopia.

Yes that's a fact. But we can potentially give most people most of what they want. This would keep us mostly in an utopian state.

And tough luck to those who are miserable....a recipe for disaster. People who are unhappy are gonna want to change things and they will not stop until they do and why the hell shouldn't they? Imagine it is you that is miserable...

Virtual reality might alleviate some of the problems caused by cultural incompatibility but the way I see it, it's better to have one dominant culture, it will be safer in the long run.

So Kim Yong On or whatever tyrant rises to power and his followers love him. Sorry that you don't, you'll just have to get used to it though I guess. The problem is that you think everyone will be happy in your utopia but they will not and that will bring about it's failing.

Anyway I'd like to add we might be close to reaching a semi utopian state. The longer we don't have wars the closer do we get to actual social progress. Hatemongering is our biggest enemy.

You may be on a personal level but there are a lot of very unhappy people in this world. This is not likely to change without major changes in this world.

The main function of a government is to distribute the people's wealth. We have instant communications, now everyone can decide what they see as a priority and where they wants their wealth to be distributed - we could do this right now, I'm not quite sure why we don't do it (probably has to do with internet fraud). We could run a government with crowdfunding imagine that .

The problem with the people deciding this sort of stuff is that they are not as clever as they think they are. It is really easy to dupe people into voting for something and you end up with mob rule. How much does the average person know about government funding. Would you be happy to go to a doctor that simply does what the population votes on. Popular view is that you need to have your arm cut off...ok, then doctor will do it. We train professionals and listen to them because that is the best option - same with government, we vote them in because we trust them to act in a professional manner in our best interests. It is not fool proof but it is a damn site better than mob rule.

The justice system is a different problem altogether, but it's not something you would have much use for in an utopia, sociopaths and the like would be "cured" at birth.

You're scaring me again. Sure you are not part of the Hitler youth????

[corb]

You're scaring me again. Sure you are not part of the Hitler youth????

The wording is politically incorrect, I wrote it during the late night and I didn't edit it later.
Rather than AT birth, before birth. I hope you don't have anything against abortion at least.

Brrrr you are one scary individual

I was born in a post communist country. I don't see anything wrong with a centralized world government. I'm surprised an american would be against it, considering how 50 countries follow one government in your "federal republic".
Europe and Asia are slowly going for federalization too. It's not a bad thing (unless you're a Texan separatist).

The problem is that you think everyone will be happy in your utopia but they will not and that will bring about it's failing.

If they're not all happy it's not an utopia. As I already said earlier.
It's much easier to make people happy than you think though and rather than everyone being happy what we need is for no people to be angry.

The problem with the people deciding this sort of stuff is that they are not as clever as they think they are.

Naturally absolute control would be impractical. But voting on general matters is quite possible.
And of course specialists can inform you about the risks and benefits of the choices. But not in a debate. Debates should be outlawed, they have no intellectual benefit and are purely populist.

From what you've said so far it seems to me you're libertarian. Which is not bad per se but ...

This is not likely to change without major changes in this world.

That sounds just as aggressive. Please elaborate.

Edited by corb, 22 January 2013 - 05:51 PM.

[absent minded]

I'd imagine humans would have to master lie-detecting technology.

[Bron]

There will always be competition for products, services, and resources; they will always have a value. Speaking in macro terms anyhow. Of course you can always point to a small anomaly that is contradictory, ie. communes.

The best way for you to be able to start to lessen competition would be to control procreation. And if procreation is controlled, I don't see how you can call your society a 'utopia'; considering it seems to be a basic human instinct. Unless you killed off the majority of mankind, and only left behind a minority group that was selectively bred and/or chosen because of their lack of desire to procreate.

But killing off billions of people? Sounds more like dystopia than utopia.

I prefer the chaos, lots of great things have come from freedom and competition, and they will continue to. No need to try and control a society with the intentions of creating a utopia. Let people find their own happiness. Some will, some won't. Way of the world.

Every time a dictator seems to think he can create a utopia he fails miserably.



I am also all for a centralized world government, but I am also smart enough to know that it sure as hell won't be a utopia.

[YOLF]

Crime could be done away with altogether once we have AI to raise our children. As parents we are all flawed and can't truly read the minds of our children at 1000% efficacy and defects in one generation lead to defects in the next. IIRC it was said somewhere that we speak our parent's flaws or something to that effect. Leaving an AI to raise our cyberbrain equipped children is the way to go. The AI can multitask to the nth degree and will never have a conflict that will interfere with raising a kid at 100% efficacy and will be in contact with the child 24/7. Combine that with a complete control of aging (as in growing through the stages of childhood and then staying young forever rather than getting old) and an abundance of everything and there wouldn't be a pathology to contribute to criminality.

Can anyone think of any other problems that wouldn't be solved? I'd love to talk about solutions.