517 replies to this topic

[niner]

They sure sound like they are hydrolyzed, based on Colvita's website that talks about them containing free amino acids and getting into the bloodstream without the need for any enzymes. Maybe the magic is in their elaborate formulation with the citrus carrier. They describe their vitamin E as "priceless", and their iodine as "precious". I guess so, at two hundred bucks a bottle... Well, I'm glad that it's working well for you, at any rate. If it gives you back your mobility and nothing else has, then it's totally worth it.

[Luminosity]

Does anyone know how to search for the patent on this, which is probably in Poland? That might help us to find out about this product.

I'm glad if someone is helped by a supplement. I'm puzzled by how fish collagen, algae and vitamin E could cost 100 or 200 dollars a bottle. There are other brands of fish collagen.

Edited by Luminosity, 14 September 2013 - 03:35 AM.

[bgs4669]

They sure sound like they are hydrolyzed, based on Colvita's website that talks about them containing free amino acids and getting into the bloodstream without the need for any enzymes. Maybe the magic is in their elaborate formulation with the citrus carrier. They describe their vitamin E as "priceless", and their iodine as "precious". I guess so, at two hundred bucks a bottle... Well, I'm glad that it's working well for you, at any rate. If it gives you back your mobility and nothing else has, then it's totally worth it.

true! for the frist few weeks i thought, maybe placebo effect. But when the weather changed i felt the usual tingling and thought here we go, so i took an extra few supps. And nothing, no usual pain and getting around like a 90 year old. My wife thinks it is great cause no more Ow, Arrr, etc.The collagen is non - hydrolyzed, and the triple helix is kept live outside the donors body. With their gels and creams they need to package it and deliver in special packaging to maintain temperature control so as not to destroy the collagen. I guess this is why it is more expensive. The gels are used in many hospitals and people use it like Aloe vera due to its healing abilities, etc.
Anyway i am just glad this stuff works as i can put of the op for at least a few more years, and enjoy playing with 3 year old. If you want i have some translated info i can send to you...

[Luminosity]

Post it if you can.

[bgs4669]

i could, but really much easier to email you...

[Luminosity]

If you could post it, it would work better for me and everyone could see it.

[niner]

i could, but really much easier to email you...

It's really quite easy to post anything you can email. You could just paste it into the text editor, if it's a short text file, or you could attach it as a file, using the 'Browse...' and 'Attach This File' buttons at the bottom of our editor. The maximum file size is 2 MB.

[Strangelove]

Nice thread!

I am wondering if the same supplements readily apply to spinal issues?

Luminosity I read your experience, but I was wondering if there is any research you might know, on collagen helping with spinal disc regeneration.

I have come to believe that some part of decreased mental acuity from advanced age, is due to spinal degenaration if there is nerve compression. Its unbelievable the degree of mental issues I have due to (not so serious) spinal issues. Many years after a blow on the upper spine, constant (low level) pain due to nerve compression, started to have issues with brainfog, low level anxiety, and some issues with concentration. I do not believe these happen directly from anxiety, but the constant pressure on my bodily nervous system, seem to bring my brain out of balance. With much effort with exercises (yoga, pilates) some equipment for the spine (links below) I have seen improvement.

Goodman, you might want to look these for your spinal conditions, there were helpful for me.

http://www.amazon.co...l decompression
http://www.amazon.co...l decompression
http://www.amazon.co...l decompression

There are many more (!) equipment in Amazon for spinal issues, can be expensive, but if helpful, could use them for many years.

I am really interested to start with supplements, there are couple supplements I am looking to start with, and I would really appreciate any feedback you might have.

I cannot find Swanson collagen in Europe, is this possibly the same?

http://www.iherb.com...0-Capsules/8368

Also alternatively, I am interested in this

http://www.iherb.com...00-Capsules/426

Fron NOW - "NOW Bovine Cartilage is the highest quality available. It is the product of 40 years of scientific research and development. It is produced under rigorous quality control to ensure maximum biological activity."

This is the first time that I have seen NOW to support a product of theirs in such a strong way.

Edited by Strangelove, 20 September 2013 - 05:42 PM.

[shp5]

Nice thread!

I cannot find Swanson collagen in Europe, is this possibly the same?

one possible source:

healthmonthly.co.uk



Spinal discs are a mix of Typ I and Type II collagen (among others). So you may benefit from different supplements than for cartilage regeneration.

I too would be interested in good products apart from Type II.

[Strangelove]

Nice thread!

I cannot find Swanson collagen in Europe, is this possibly the same?

one possible source:

healthmonthly.co.uk

I too would be interested in good products apart from Type II.

Thanks, very nice. Both for products and shipping cost.

I may get this
http://healthmonthly...x_with_fortigel

[daouda]

Arthred is much cheaper and maybe very similar to fortigel? http://www.bravacorp.com/arthred.pdf
http://www.iherb.com...z-255-15-g/1032

[Strangelove]

Yes, seems similar and even better price, I am ordering it with vitamin C
http://www.iherb.com...-oz-226-8-g/966

[Luminosity]

Don't know of research. The raw Neocell product is the same as the Swansons, except once when I used to buy it from Neocell I believe that they substituted much cheaper bovine or porcine gelatin for chicken cartilage. I stopped buying it from Neocell after than but I let them know they were busted. Maybe they didn't do that again? When they sell the raw material to Swanson's, there are experts at Swanson's who would notice if they pulled that, so I don't think they would do that. It's been fine from Swansons.

Haven't tried the Arthred but in general Source Naturals is a good brand. I think the non hydrolyzed type II collagen has been my preference? Whatever the Swansons is. I think it's not hydrolyzed? In general, years ago when I tried a bunch of NOW products, I believe that they did not contain what they said they did so I stopped taking them and I haven't regretted that decision.

I don't know if they have Osteopaths in Europe? In America they are go by the initials D.O. after their names for Doctor of Osteopathy. Some of them do manipulation, which is like a chiropractic adjustment, but better, in my opinion. They have four year medical degrees. In America they can sign any paper an MD can sign, and can prescribe stuff. Some of them have some physical therapy at their offices, like ultrasound, etc. In America they can accept most insurances and workers' comp, etc. Osteopaths tend to be more wholistic, down to earth and practical than most MD's. The prophet Edgar Cayce referred people to them frequently. Medicare in the US will pay Osteopaths. They can probably accept Medicaid but might or might not want to. People with muscular-skeletal issues should consider Osteopaths.

Edited by Luminosity, 21 September 2013 - 05:55 AM.

[Strangelove]

Thank you for the helpful reply Luminosity, Swanson joint health drink mix has "Fortigel® Collagen Hydrolysate (from bovine): 10g".
Yes, they are osteopaths in E.U. and I agree with your positive description.

[Strangelove]

Spinal discs are a mix of Typ I and Type II collagen (among others). So you may benefit from different supplements than for cartilage regeneration.

I too would be interested in good products apart from Type II.

I do not know if this is where you found this information, but this is an old, but interesting article.

http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/6729579

I am wondering if we could hypothesize from the above, that collagen II makes a weaker structure, but possibly more flexible?

Also, why manufacturers usually suggest collagen ll for cartilage and l and lll mostly for skin?

So, what are the absolutely basics for repair, collagen with vitamin C?

[Strangelove]

http://www.amazon.co...ds=swanson uc11

Check this out, it only has 10mg of collagen, with positive reviews from different brands, this is Swanson, but NOW has one too.

Its seems that collagen has strong anti-nflammatory action in joints? Has this been discussed before?
Nevertheless I cannot see how you can have any repair with just 10mg of this patented collagen formulation, when some supplements go as high as 12gr.

[MizTen]

http://www.amazon.co...ds=swanson uc11

Check this out, it only has 10mg of collagen, with positive reviews from different brands, this is Swanson, but NOW has one too.

Its seems that collagen has strong anti-nflammatory action in joints? Has this been discussed before?
Nevertheless I cannot see how you can have any repair with just 10mg of this patented collagen formulation, when some supplements go as high as 12gr.

Yes, I would say that collagen does indeed have a strong anti-inflammatory effect. I had significant inflammation and bone loss in my lower back. Taking collagen daily makes a big difference in pain and mobility. I also use bone broth as often as it's available.

This is a supplement I will be trying soon to see if I can achieve more recovery:
http://www.iherb.com...oz-371-7-g/5035

I have also used this in the past and found it to be very helpful:

http://www.iherb.com...90-Softgels/230

It does need to be cycled, though, as continuous long-term CycloOxygenase-2 (COX-2) enzyme inhibition is not desirable, though I can't remember why...

This has some powerful ingredients:

http://www.iherb.com...-Softgels/43472

Serrapeptase is also very helpful, but should probably be cycled, as it seems to soften cartilage too much if taken continuously.

A few things I have discovered in my quest to heal my back:
Inflammation may be the primary cause of bone loss and joint problems in many people. Some inflammatory conditions affecting the spine may be caused by bacteria from sub-clinical infection in the gums migrating over time to the spine. So it might be a really good idea to improve oral health and possibly have the gums (roots) scaled before embarking on a lengthy and costly program of bone and cartilage healing. Also doing things to assist your immune system would be a good idea as some healing strategies (such as root scaling) may temporarily mobilize a stealth infection.

Improving vascular health, especially in the area affected may make a big difference. Yoga and massage specific to bone and joint problems can increase (over time) arterial flexibility. Nattokinase can also be very helpful.

Strength training specific to back will improve overall health in the area if done properly. You need expert help in designing a program for that though, as you don't want to destroy a weak disk or cause more inflammation. This book has excellent guidelines:
http://www.amazon.co...sl_2ii3ffjtkg_b

I have been very successful in decreasing pain and inflammation using the things I've mentioned. But I don't know yet if the structural condition of my spine has improved. I think it may be a 2-3 year project and I'm only in the first year. I want to go backpacking again. My doctor rolls her eyes at this goal.

Edited by MizTen, 21 September 2013 - 02:47 PM.

[MizTen]

Oh, and I forgot about MSM. Also very helpful for joints and cartilage. Several grams per day yield good results

[Strangelove]

If there is an issue with normal low back curve (pain could make your muscles tense and straighten your back as a defence to further injury) I found these products effective.

http://www.amazon.co...rds=back roller
http://www.amazon.co...=back stretcher

The good part with low back issues is that is a body part that you can easily work with in many ways. There are quite a few streching/working out machines in Amazon. Pilates/swimming can be very helpful too!

[ta5]

http://www.amazon.co...ds=swanson uc11

Check this out, it only has 10mg of collagen, with positive reviews from different brands, this is Swanson, but NOW has one too.

Its seems that collagen has strong anti-nflammatory action in joints? Has this been discussed before?
Nevertheless I cannot see how you can have any repair with just 10mg of this patented collagen formulation, when some supplements go as high as 12gr.

I have struggled to understand how UCII works as well. I agree, clearly 10mg is not going to feed your joints. The idea is that it somehow helps prevent your immune system from attacking your joints, maybe something like allergy shots.

LEF has an article about it:
http://www.lef.org/m...e-Attack_01.htm

Its unique molecular characteristics prevent immune cells’ overreaction to proteins normally found in cartilage and joint tissue that lead to pain and stiffness in both rheumatoid and osteoarthritis.

As discussed earlier, immune system T-cells are tasked with recognizing and distinguishing between "self" molecules and "foreign" ones. They do this important work by responding to very specific molecular shapes and 3-dimensional structures.41 If T-cells in the blood are simply exposed, without any "training," to a previously unrecognized protein structure (such as those found on joint collagen) they react violently and trigger a massive inflammatory response to destroy the protein.42

This is why, when scientists want to create an animal model of arthritis, they inject collagen into their subjects, sensitizing the T-cells in their blood to the protein.43 Those circulating T-cells set up inflammation in the animal’s joints, with their rich supplies of collagen.

If T-cells are given adequate preparation, however, they can be "taught" that a specific molecule is a friend rather than a foe. Where does such T-cell "training" take place?

In the intestinal tract, specifically the lower end of the small intestine, which is rich in collections of immune tissue called Peyer’s patches. Peyer’s patches act as "training centers" for T-cells, exposing them to all sorts of molecular shapes that are natural components of the food we eat.44 In that fashion, we desensitize our immune systemsand develop a natural tolerance to new foods without having constant allergic or inflammatory reactions.44

So, by providing native collagen of the right 3-dimensional structure to the digestive tract, rather than to the bloodstream directly, we can "educate" our T-cells to ignore collagen when they encounter it in joints.5,41 Scientists say that this enables people to develop oral tolerance to collagen.45,46

And oral tolerance to collagen powerfully suppresses joint inflammation, as has been shown in numerous laboratory studies.5,47,48 Oral administration of soluble type II collagen even prevents arthritis induced experimentally by collagen injections.45,46

But not just any collagen works. Typical commercial processing causes collagen to become denatured, uncoiling from its normal helical shape and losing its 3-dimensional structure. Denatured collagen has no beneficial effects on joint inflammation.48

A more natural form of collagen, called undenatured type II collagen, or UC-II®, has recently been developed.UC-II® is a highly effective product derived from chicken breast cartilage, a rich source of natural collagen.49 UC-II® retains its original 3-dimensional molecular structure, keeping it recognizable by T-cells in Peyer’s patches. And UC-II is robust enough to survive the harsh conditions in the stomach and small intestine, arriving at Peyer’s patches with its molecules intact.41

[shp5]

well one can do simple stretches without the help of any devices. Most people with low-back-pain will benefit from stretching their hamstrings and gluteal muscles, and working on the rotation of their spine.

when you sit, make sure you got good lumbar support (little pillow, folded towel or similar on the back-support supporting pelvis and lumbar spine) and that you arrange your working space in a way that you can and will actually rest against the back-support.



Osteopathy is getting bigger and bigger in Europe, though I think it's about 75% PTs and 25% MDs here that are osteopaths, so you often don't benefit as much from the holistic treatment a DO or MD could give. On the other hand, PTs are the only ones that will give you sensible home-exercises.

[Strangelove]

Book for good posture
http://www.amazon.co...=Esther Gokhale

expensive... DVD, I am interested to check out
http://www.amazon.co...=I1YKB3TZ1J2QPV


If you sit many hours, I am sure this simple back rest (or towel) would work.

[Luminosity]

I agree with the comment about having good lumbar support for your chairs. I haven't seen any lately. If anyone has any to recommend, please do.

The earlier link by Strangelove was to Swanson's type II chicken sternal collagen:
http://www.iherb.com...0-Capsules/8368 not Fortigel bovine collagen.

Swanson's Fortigel collagen, the type is unspecified, is in a formulation with other ingredients. I don't like the other ingredients in Fortigel. I'm working on getting the company that makes the collagen in this product, Gelita, to come here and to answer our questions about it and to make the active ingredient available separately.

I tried UC collagen. It did nothing for me. It is the protein refined from the cartilage without the other compounds which I think are natural hyaluronic acid and glucosamine present in the cartilage. You need those. I would skip UC II collagen.

I've tried many types of collagen. If I wanted to rebuild connective tissues, I'd google my posts on the subject using keywords and then post my understanding to make sure I knew what was being said, and then, I'd take those supplements.

Strangelove, it's sort of like you are trying to understand food by reading about it. I've been eating the "food" for a while, browsing in the supermarket. Everyone is different and you might find something I haven't tried, but I think you could do a lot worse than to start with my regimen.

There are different types of collagen in your body, I, II, III and maybe more. Different tissues are made of different types of collagen. There are questions of absorbability of certain products. For instance, I can't absorb bovine or porcine gelatin consisting of types I and III collagen. Other have a different experience. Type II collagen would tend to be made from cartilage. It nourishes cartilage but can also nourish skin and other connective tissues. It is more absorbable.

I find it's important to take collagen and other supplements in certain ways, which I've explained in my prior posts.

Edited by Luminosity, 23 September 2013 - 02:36 AM.

[Strangelove]

Strangelove, it's sort of like you are trying to understand food by reading about it. I've been eating the "food" for a while, browsing in the supermarket. Everyone is different and you might find something I haven't tried, but I think you could do a lot worse than to start with my regimen.

Sorry for asking to write things again, but could you post the supplements you recommend putting first what you consider the most important?

[sthira]

I find it's important to take collagen and other supplements in certain ways, which I've explained in my prior posts.

Thank you for your insights here, Luminosity. Inspired by your prior posts I've been taking type 2 collagen (neocell's) and I'm wondering about vitamin c. Instead of taking a vitamin c supplement or drinking sugary juice I've been taking the collagen with c-rich fruit. Yet it says take it on an empty stomach, so I'm experimenting. Any thoughts about this?

[Luminosity]

This is my supplement regimen to regrow cartilage and connective tissue at this time:

1) Swanson's Type II Collagen from Chicken Sternal Cartilage: five or six capsules dissolved in water for about half an hour or more with half a 250 mg. capsule of Swanson's ascorbyl palmitate (fat soluble vitamin C) and a dusting of B vitamins (I take them out of a Nature's Way capsule). If you can't get Swanson's, get the equivalent product from Neocell.* I take these on an empty stomach preferrably twenty or thirty minutes before a meal. I guess some people can skip the B vitamins. I take this twice a day, preferably before breakfast and lunch, on an empty stomach. You can make both doses at once in a three ounce disposable medicine cup and take half at a time.

If you can't find ascorbyl palmitate in a powder or capsule, use whatever vitamin C you prefer. It will maximize the effectiveness of the collagen. I took ascorbyl palmitate in a tablet but it was useless, for me. I'm not a fan of tablets for most vitamins personally. If you use an acidic form of vitamin C, you will eventually want take it in capsule form to save you teeth from the acids.

2) Source Naturals plain powdered MSM dissolved in water. If you can't get Source Naturals, try to get another brand who gets their raw materials from OptiMSM. They usually make a point of stating this. In the US, OptiMSM is the best and purest MSM source. The other two sources in the US contain irritating impurities. Source Naturals finely powders their MSM which makes it easier to dissolve. I take a high dose. It might be too much for some. I take two teaspoons at a time with half a 500 mg. capsule of Ester C with no bioflavonoids, American Health (?) brand, and I add a pinch of the B vitamins, which is optional. You can start with half a teaspoon of MSM at a time and increase until you feel bloated, gassy, or sluggish. Then cut it back. I take this on an empty stomach about forty to sixty minutes before a meal on an empty stomach. It is preferable to take this before breakfast and lunch. You can make both doses at once in a three ounce disposable medicine cup and take half at a time. If you take it at night, it may make it hard to sleep.

If you can't find Ester C without bioflavonoids in a capsule, you can try it with bioflavoniods. They make me gassy. If you can't find this, use whatever vitamin C you prefer. If it is acidic, you should eventually take it in a capsule or tablet form (capsule is better) to save your teeth from the acid.

3) Solaray Bamboo silica extract capsules. I take the contents of half a capsule dissolved in water with breakfast and lunch. If you can't get these, then there are Swanson's bamboo extract capsules, Cola de Caballo by Amazon Therapeutics, Jarrosil or BioSil. They are not interchangaeble. Personally I like the first one best. I like the first three better than the last two, which are made from sand. The first three are made from plants. DO NOT TAKE capsules of ground horsetail ferns. Silica containing plants need to be processed to make the silica accessible.

The above are the most important supplements for rebuilding connective tissue for me right now. There are many other supplements that I take, and have taken. There are natural anti-inflammatories like Boswellin and sarsaparilla. There are many of those. Different ones help different people. There are Chinese herbs that bring down inflammation and reduce stagnation as well as encourage different connective tissues to heal. There are natural products you can use externally to bring down inflammation and reduce stagnation and restore harmony.

______________________________

sthira,

You can see if taking the collagen with piece of fruit causes indigestion or sluggishness. If not, it might be o.k. If I take it with a meal, it causes gas.

________________________________

*Hopefully the Neocell type II cartilage will be authentic. If you want to see more about how to tell if it is, Google for my post on how I believe that they counterfeited this a while back.

Edited by Luminosity, 26 September 2013 - 04:26 AM.

[ironfistx]

As well i have had excellent results from taking collagen supplements Colvita. They are produced in Poland, eastern europe. Bash on native freshwater fish skin and are 100% biocompatible with the human body. The collagen or triple helix is kept "live", and said to be directly absorbed into bloodstream upon dissolution of the gelatin capsule. And pretty much straight away i have no more sudden pain or the normal weather change discomfort that i usually experience & 10 fold increase in mobility.

This is evident now and same since early June of taking the collagen supplements...

SEO spam link?

[YOLF]

Did anyone mention MSM?

[hav]

http://www.amazon.co...ds=swanson uc11

Check this out, it only has 10mg of collagen, with positive reviews from different brands, this is Swanson, but NOW has one too.

Its seems that collagen has strong anti-nflammatory action in joints? Has this been discussed before?
Nevertheless I cannot see how you can have any repair with just 10mg of this patented collagen formulation, when some supplements go as high as 12gr.

I have struggled to understand how UCII works as well. I agree, clearly 10mg is not going to feed your joints. The idea is that it somehow helps prevent your immune system from attacking your joints, maybe something like allergy shots.

Most of the research on UCII is vendor sponsored but I did find some early independent research. The earliest I found was a 2005 study on women:

Effects of orally administered undenatured type II collagen against arthritic inflammatory diseases: a mechanistic exploration.

Recent research provides evidence that alterations in the three-dimensional configuration of glycoproteins are responsible for the recognition/response signaling that catalyzes T-cell attack. Oral administration of autoantigens has been shown to suppress a variety of experimentally induced autoimmune pathologies, including antigen-induced RA. The interaction between gut-associated lymphoid tissue in the duodenum and epitopes of orally administered undenatured type II collagen facilitates oral tolerance to the antigen and stems systemic T-cell attack on joint cartilage. Previous studies have shown that small doses of orally administered undenatured type II chicken collagen effectively deactivate killer T-cell attack. A novel glycosylated undenatured type II collagen material (UC-II) was developed to preserve biological activity.
...
A pilot study was conducted for 42 days to evaluate the efficacy of UC-II (10 mg/day) in five female subjects (58-78 years) suffering from significant joint pain. Significant pain reduction including morning stiffness, stiffness following periods of rest, pain that worsens with use of the affected joint and loss of joint range of motion and function was observed.

The same group seems to have followed up with a study on dogs:

Efficacy and safety of glycosylated undenatured type-II collagen (UC-II) in therapy of arthritic dogs.

This study was therefore undertaken to evaluate clinical efficacy and safety of undenatured type-II collagen (UC-II) in obese-arthritic dogs. Fifteen dogs in three groups received either no UC-II (Group I) or UC-II with 1 mg/day (Group II) or 10 mg/day (Group III) for 90 days. Lameness and pain were measured on a weekly basis for 120 days (90 days treatment plus 30 days post-treatment).

Followed by another dog study comparing UCII to Glucosamine and Condroitin:

Twenty dogs divided into four groups (n = 5) were daily treated orally for 120 days: group I, placebo; group II, 10 mg UC-II; group III, 2,000 mg glucosamine + 1,600 mg chondroitin; group IV, UC-II (10 mg) + glucosamine (2,000 mg) + chondroitin (1,600 mg), followed by a 30-day withdrawal period.
...
Dogs receiving UC-II alone showed significant reductions in overall pain within 30 days (33%) and pain upon limb manipulation and exercise-associated lameness after 60 days (66% and 44%, respectively) of treatment. Maximum reductions in pain were noted after 120 days of treatment (overall pain reduction, 62%; pain reduction upon limb manipulation, 91%; and reduction in exercise-associated lameness, 78%). The overall activity of the dogs in the UC-II supplemented with glucosamine and chondroitin group (group IV) was significantly better than the glucosamine + chondroitin-supplemented group (group III). Glucosamine and chondroitin alleviated some pain, but in combination with UC-II (group IV) provided significant reductions in overall pain (57%), pain upon limb manipulation (53%), and exercise-associated lameness (53%). Following withdrawal of supplements, all dogs (groups II to IV) experienced a relapse of pain. None of the dogs in any groups showed any adverse effects or change in liver or kidney function markers or body weight.

Here's a recent vendor-contracted study in healthy humans:

Undenatured type II collagen (UC-II®) for joint support (full-text)

This randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled study was conducted in healthy subjects who had no prior history of arthritic disease or joint pain at rest but experienced joint discomfort with physical activity. Fifty-five subjects, who reported knee pain after participating in a standardized stepmill performance test, were randomized to the placebo (n = 28) or the UC-II (40 mg daily, n = 27) cohort for 120 days.
...
After 120 days of supplementation, subjects in the UC-II group exhibited a statistically significant improvement in average knee extension compared to placebo (81.0 +/- 1.3o vs 74.0 +/- 2.2o; p = 0.011) and to baseline (81.0 +/- 1.3o vs 73.2 +/- 1.9o; p = 0.002). The UC-II cohort also demonstrated a statistically significant change in average knee extension at day 90 (78.8 +/- 1.9o vs 73.2 +/- 1.9o; p = 0.045) versus baseline. No significant change in knee extension was observed in the placebo group at any time. It was also noted that the UC-II group exercised longer before experiencing any initial joint discomfort at day 120 (2.8 +/- 0.5 min, p = 0.019), compared to baseline (1.4 +/- 0.2 min). By contrast, no significant changes were seen in the placebo group. No product related adverse events were observed during the study. At study conclusion, five individuals in the UC-II cohort reported no pain during or after the stepmill protocol (p = 0.031, within visit) as compared to one subject in the placebo group.

Howard

[Gerrans]

I have read this thread with great interest; thanks to all the people who have contributed--lots for me to follow up. My arthritis has improved a lot over the past couple of years, since I set out to take various supplements for it. The improvement took a long time to get going, but then it set in and I am sure something or some things worked, although I am not sure which. I have taken glucosamine, collagen, Vitamin C, a good multivit, gelatin, biotin -- trouble is I do not know where the benefit has come from.

One supplement I would like to mention, which I do not think has been highlighted on the thread (might have missed it) is niacinamide. I started this much later than the others, and I found it gave me what felt like more ease and freedom -- unless I imagined it. It does not regrow cartilage, of course--and it is not going to repair anything itself -- but I believe it does perhaps make for better blood flow around inflamed areas. The chap with the bad elbow might well benefit from this, I think. There is no need to take lots of it, I believe, for run of the mill arthritis.